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16
Pre-0.9.9 / Re: [M|AoMs|StdWin|93%] Dear God Finally
« on: January 11, 2009, 11:11 »Pistol doesn't need accuracy. The first level is cleared with the shotgun, point-blank range luring enemies into doorways as if you were playing AoB. TaN is good for that and helps you survive until you get the chaingun in Hell's Arena. Usually you get a lvlup there and can then take EE.
I tend to switch between pistol and shotgun depending on the enemy's distance. Mainly I use the pistol (or assault shotgun if I find it), to kill enemies at range. In AoMs the first five or so character levels come quickly enough for me not to use a cautious strategy like in AoB, except when I reach Hell's Arena.
I honestly don't know how to compare the usefulness of TaN and EE... EE stands out as an offensive trait, but depending on play style (e.g. shotgun specialists) defense might be far better. Also (though this doesn't matter as much in AoMs) EE gets you to Cateye and Intuition, the great tactical skills.
17
Requests For Features / Re: The Nuke
« on: January 11, 2009, 11:06 »Ao100 is already a cakewalk, though. I beat it on the second try. Even AoMr is harder.
That might not be an optimal way to judge the difficulty of things. I did AoMr on the third try and AoMs on the first try. Ergo, masochism is easier than marksmanship?
It's not the optimal way, true, but it is a criterion. Probably the best way to go is to figure out which ones the most people have problem with.
18
Requests For Features / Re: Juggler trait to allow dual wielding melee
« on: January 11, 2009, 11:02 »I was under the impression that the difficulty factor in a melee Ao100 wouldn't be from lack of dealt damage so much as a surplus of incoming damage, from having to close in on everything. A melee'er with all the relevent traits deals enough damage to down lesser creatures in one hit, and the bigger ones not much longer than that.
Yeah, you're right. I came to a similar conclusion in the other thread, after some thought. However, for Ao100 you might be unlucky enough to miss the chainsaw, Dragonslaver and Butcher's Cleaver outright.
19
Discussion / Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« on: January 10, 2009, 10:38 »
Another disadvantage from the speed penalty just occurred to me. Say you run up to a former human, and his mates suddenly show up from around a corner. If you are single wielding, you kill them with one swing each, taking some damage. With dual wielding, you still kill each of them in one hit, but now there's a speed penalty allowing them to chip away more of your health than before.
SoG is useless for a melee character, so none would get the trait then. And I figure the dualgunning trait is a matter of skill, not brute strength. The combination doesn't work from that perspective.
Also, the current treatment of Juggler makes it look like the chainsaw is one-handed. And there's Ash to consider. ;)
My take on it would be to ignore the juggler free melee hit thing, and merge dual-gunner into a single trait that allows any one-handed weapons to be dual-wielded, carrying over the same speed penalty.
SoG is useless for a melee character, so none would get the trait then. And I figure the dualgunning trait is a matter of skill, not brute strength. The combination doesn't work from that perspective.
Also, the current treatment of Juggler makes it look like the chainsaw is one-handed. And there's Ash to consider. ;)
20
Requests For Features / Re: The Nuke
« on: January 10, 2009, 10:23 »Quote
Also - it would make Ao100 a bit easier, I guess...
Those are good points. Ao100 is already a cakewalk, though. I beat it on the second try. Even AoMr is harder.
21
Discussion / Re: Juggler dual wield melee?
« on: January 10, 2009, 10:18 »If there was a speed penalty, it might be balanced. As Juggler is right now, there wouldn't be one. That the trait requirements are weird for a melee build sorta balances things, maybe. Making a dual wielder trait that unlocks after the melee build traits would be broken, though, especially considering you're getting all the Brute bonuses *again* on the second weapon. In no world do I see one trait giving you the ability to do an extra 2d5+12 damage being anywhere near balanced.
Maybe if you didn't get Brute or Berserker on the second hit and there was a good speed penalty. Maybe.
It only seems unbalanced in the absence of context. Going through your points in order:
Yeah, a speed penalty would be a necessity, so that there's an element of tradeoff as in Dualgunner. The penalty should also be higher than Dualgunner's, since melee weapons are heavier.
Having non-melee trait requirements would make such a trait useless, because by the time you could reasonably unlock it you'd be past the UC. On the other hand, having requirements like Brute(3) or Brute(3) plus Berserker(1) would grant this ability available in one of the most unbalanced portions of the challenge, namely shortly before the Chained Court.
More importantly, in the AoB challenge, doing an extra knife's worth of damage doesn't matter very much once you have the chainsaw. At that point, if you can get yourself next to an enemy, you can kill almost anything in one or two moves. With an extra knife swing, again, you can kill almost anything in one or two moves, given that you've probably skipped a level of EE to get the new ability. Doing massive amounts of damage is _already_ the melee character's strength, and adding more doesn't do anything at all about its severe weaknesses, namely having to run up to an enemy and having to deal with multiple enemies at once.
In fact, calling the new skill DW, my ideal skill progression would look something like this, assuming DW at Brute(3)+Berserker and a speed penalty for it:
Bru->Bru->Ber->EE->Bru->HR->Iro->HR->DW->whatever...
It wouldn't be a particularly compelling skill like Berserker: I would aim for it to be my last skill before the UC, because that's the only place before the CD where the extra damage would make a significant difference.
I'm not sure about your Berserking suggestion. On the one hand, it would decrease your already low chance of becoming Berserk before the AoD. On the other hand, you could unequip the extra knife until you reach him, where the extra damage would certainly help.
Anyway, thanks for the explicit objections. Those are much better than just a statement of preference. :)
22
Requests For Features / Re: The Nuke
« on: January 10, 2009, 07:53 »Hey - if it's the only reason it's overpowered, it's not hard to fix it. Just make an exception for the Arena (and the last level) with something like this: "10... You toss the nuke down the staircase... Some monster throws it back ! 3... 2..." ;). You can even have a (small) chance to get the nuke thrown back to you from a regular level (depending on level difficulty ?), which then you would need to deactivate. It would suggest, however, that if the nuke does get thrown back, there should be monsters with hands in the first room of the next level (or it gets thrown back IF there are monsters with hands there).
That's true, but I thought that exception would be unfair to the player who figured out that nuke strategy and tried to use it there. As long as it's not an instadeath, it should be fine, though, and I'm warming to the idea of a more versatile nuke.
23
Discussion / Re: Experience cap at level 19
« on: January 10, 2009, 07:39 »Eh, I'm doing it so see the effects. Plus, it's nice to know that I really do only get so many levels to plan for in a real play.
I was addressing the gameplay aspect, not your accomplishment of bypassing it. :)
I think the higher levels should be balanced so that, on Ao100, you gain about a level per eight completely cleared areas after character level fifteen or so. That would put a winning player around levels 22-25, and it would partly fix the biggest problem of Ao100, namely the tedium of later levels. Up until nineteen you have the motivation to keep going because you want to make your godlike marine just that much more powerful... but then the motivation disappears halfway through, because you hit the level cap. At that point stubbornness is the only thing keeping you going.
24
Pre-0.9.9 / Re: [M|AoMs|StdWin|93%] Dear God Finally
« on: January 10, 2009, 07:36 »The big epiphany, so to speak, that made me win AoMs was the fact that "Holy shit, I get a guaranteed rocket launcher at level 3 now". The rocket launcher is just excellent because it kills most things in 1-3 shots and it doesn't miss as long as there's a wall nearby. As such, you can go to the left side of a map, fire it blindly right and get 20% XP without being in danger of losing a single hit point. You might lose a few powerups, but most of them are based around healing or preventing damage (Armor and berserk) which you obviously don't need.
I want to amend this. Shoot blindly from the side (rockets truly shine in this challenge), but leave yourself a walled-in space somewhere nearby for retreating when you hear the demons' cries get louder. This works even better with Cateye, natch. By the way, I really hope Kornel improves the monster AI so that this cheesy strategy no longer works so well.
Also, a quibble on your strategy: EE is a far better starting skill than SoB. Eagle Eye seems to kick your pistol from about a 50% accuracy to about a 75% one, for a 50% increase in damage (these are not exact figures, of course). SoB(1) gives you 20% extra damage for a pistol (five plus one), or 25% (four plus one) for a creature with basic armor. It gives you 28% extra damage for a chaingun (3.5 plus one per bullet), or 40% (2.5 plus one) for a creature with basic armor, and EE probably has a bigger impact on chaingun use than pistol use besides. For shotgun characters, EE can be deferred or avoided, of course, but yours looks like a chaingun build. Anyway, SoB is a midgame skill through and through: I think it should be acquired shortly before you find a plasma rifle, at character level six or so.
Edit: Oops, did I just lecture a moderator? :P
25
Pre-0.9.9 / Re: [M|AoMs|84%|YAVP] Got a bit lucky on the first try...
« on: January 10, 2009, 07:10 »
Cool, I didn't think it was viable to win AoMs with an offensive build.
26
Requests For Features / Re: The Nuke
« on: January 10, 2009, 07:08 »Ultraportable nuke. Can be dropped down a staircase to clear out the level before you enter it, with obvious applications.3* We should be able to drop it down to the next level, regardless of whether it's a special level or not. Would make the nuke useful regardless of nearby Inv Globes and would add some more possibilities. We would be tempted to drop it down, get the XP and not risk getting hurt, while also losing all the items and power-ups we might have recovered...
Implementation should be easy... Generate a level, place a nuke, blow it up, save the level... voila.
I agree with the first two suggestions (including the delay before you receive the experience -- that's a nice touch!) but the last one is overpowered. It would give a guaranteed full win, and Kornel has said he wants that to remain a matter of chance.
27
Pre-0.9.9 / [H|AoMs|100%|YAAM] Poor Sod XII was able to face the evil without fear.
« on: January 10, 2009, 07:03 »
There seem to be a lot of these being posted, so I'll put up my own from back in August. Note that I killed the Cyberdemon with 128% health: hooray for spending most of Level 24 with two hitpoints! But I was able to win thanks to the Nuclear Plasma Rifle, which might be the best possible unique weapon for an AoMs player.
* Wow. Imagine crawling inch by inch through Level 24, not knowing whether or not you would have enough experience to level up before the big guy... and then doing so, with victory suddenly all but assured. I think the margin was only five barons of hell or so. A great feeling to win this way, but the effort required burned me out on DoomRL.
** I have consistently found this to be one of the most important early skills, because the base accuracy sucks so much. It being a prerequisite for Cateye certainly helps. I only got Finesse to unlock Juggler.
*** The two most important traits for tactical gameplay, within the chaingun build. The Intuition payoff comes too late, in my opinion.
**** The nuclear plasma rifle is such a wonderful weapon for this challenge! Here was my tactic for the later levels: Run to the side. lob rockets down the middle of the level until there is a path most of the way through, leaving only defensive walls at the edges. Fire three NPR bursts down the midline, then run like a chicken to the safe haven if you hear a scream. Run when something enters your extended field of vision, unless it's an arch-vile who is almost dead. Most of my damage came from either accidentally deviating from this strategy, driving a powerful creature near death, or having one get a full inventory and sit still atop a pile of bullets. (That's a bug, by the way.)
***** An empty BFG, no power cells in sight. You see what happens when a player is forced into a defensive build.
****** I think taking on every (reasonable) special level is a good strategy for AoMs, since it gave me the final level two-thirds of the way through Level 24. A character with an assault shotgun can reliably clear Hell's Arena without dying, with the proper strategy (fire from offscreen, be very patient).
******* Almost dead, you say? No kidding.
--------------------------------------------------------------
DoomRL (v.0.9.8.10) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------
Poor Sod 12, level 13 Cacodemon Major, defeated the Cyberdemon
on level 25 of the Phobos base.
He survived 369382 turns and scored 189600 points.
He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.
He killed 886 out of 886 hellspawn. (100%)
This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!
He was an Angel of Masochism!
-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------
###########################################################
#..........................................................
#..........................................................
#..........................................................
#....###...................................................
#....###...................................................
#....###......###............................###...........
#.............###............................###...........
#.............###..###.................##....###...###.....
#......###.........#>#................###..........###.....
#......###.........###..........}..................###.....
#......###.................................................
#..........................................................
#......................X...................................
#........................................................##
#...................................................###..##
#.............................#.....................###..##
#.............................###...................###....
#..........................................................
###########################################################
-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------
Health 64/50* Experience 71190/13
ToHit +4 ToDmg Ranged +1 ToDmg Melee +1
-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------
Finesse (Level 1) **
Hellrunner (Level 1)
Tough as nails (Level 2)
Son of a bitch (Level 1)
Eagle Eye (Level 2) **
Juggler (Level 1) ***
Cateye (Level 2) ***
Badass (Level 3)
TaN->EE->TaN->Bad->EE->Bad->Bad->Cat->Cat->Fin->Jug->SoB->HR->
-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------
[a] [ Armor ] modified red armor [1/5] (10%) (P)
[b] [ Weapon ] advanced rocket launcher (6d7) [0/1] (D1R1S2)
[c] [ Boots ] modified protective boots [2/2] (100%) (M)
[d] [ Prepared ] Nuclear Plasma Rifle (1d7)x8 [24/24] ****
-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------
[a] modified BFG 9000 (10d8) [10/130] (M1) *****
[b] Trigun (3d6) [6/6]
[c] blue armor [2/2] (78%)
[d] modified red armor [1/5] (12%) (P)
[e] modified red armor [2/4] (28%) (D)
[f] modified red armor [2/4] (40%) (D)
[g] 10mm ammo (x139)
[h] 10mm ammo (x140)
[i] 10mm ammo (x140)
[j] rocket (x5)
[k] power cell (x52)
[l] phase device
[m] envirosuit pack
[n] envirosuit pack
[o] modified protective boots [4/4] (100%) (P)
-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------
93 former humans
114 former sergeants
30 former captains
119 imps
72 demons
81 lost souls
32 cacodemons
39 barons of hell
1 Cyberdemon
33 hell knights
34 arachnotrons
12 former commandos
10 pain elementals
14 arch-viles
15 mancubi
7 revenants
-- History ---------------------------------------------------
He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena. ******
He left the Arena as a champion!
On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
On level 10 he found Hell's Armory.
On level 10 he found the Trigun!
On level 11 he witnessed the Wall.
He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
On level 12 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
On level 18 he found the Nuclear Plasma Rifle!
On level 19 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
Entering level 24 he was almost dead... *******
Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.
-- Messages --------------------------------------------------
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
reloads his rocket launcher.
The Cyberdemon fires! You hear an explosion!
Your weapon is empty.
You reload the rocket launcher with rocket. The Cyberdemon reloads his
rocket launcher.
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon.
The Cyberdemon fires!
You reload the rocket launcher with rocket. The Cyberdemon reloads his
rocket launcher.
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
fires! You are hit! Your red armor is damaged!
You reload the rocket launcher with rocket. The Cyberdemon reloads his
rocket launcher.
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
-- General ---------------------------------------------------
Before him 137 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
119 of those were killed.
3 of those were killed by something unknown.
And 8 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.
Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
Is he immortal? 7 souls claim to have killed him...
1 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
6 killed the bastard and survived.
--------------------------------------------------------------
* Wow. Imagine crawling inch by inch through Level 24, not knowing whether or not you would have enough experience to level up before the big guy... and then doing so, with victory suddenly all but assured. I think the margin was only five barons of hell or so. A great feeling to win this way, but the effort required burned me out on DoomRL.
** I have consistently found this to be one of the most important early skills, because the base accuracy sucks so much. It being a prerequisite for Cateye certainly helps. I only got Finesse to unlock Juggler.
*** The two most important traits for tactical gameplay, within the chaingun build. The Intuition payoff comes too late, in my opinion.
**** The nuclear plasma rifle is such a wonderful weapon for this challenge! Here was my tactic for the later levels: Run to the side. lob rockets down the middle of the level until there is a path most of the way through, leaving only defensive walls at the edges. Fire three NPR bursts down the midline, then run like a chicken to the safe haven if you hear a scream. Run when something enters your extended field of vision, unless it's an arch-vile who is almost dead. Most of my damage came from either accidentally deviating from this strategy, driving a powerful creature near death, or having one get a full inventory and sit still atop a pile of bullets. (That's a bug, by the way.)
***** An empty BFG, no power cells in sight. You see what happens when a player is forced into a defensive build.
****** I think taking on every (reasonable) special level is a good strategy for AoMs, since it gave me the final level two-thirds of the way through Level 24. A character with an assault shotgun can reliably clear Hell's Arena without dying, with the proper strategy (fire from offscreen, be very patient).
******* Almost dead, you say? No kidding.
28
Requests For Features / Re: Armor Mod: Armor Regeneration
« on: January 10, 2009, 06:34 »A unique item should be permanent, IMO.
Sometimes, yes, but the defining trait is sheer power. Note that ten of the twenty-five uniques are already destroyable: the armors, the boots, and the two nuclear weapons. (I assume: I've never reduced an artifact armor or boot to zero durability.) Also, plenty of other roguelikes have one-use uniques, though those roguelikes tend to be not much like DoomRL.
Oh yeah, and another possible consumable unique: the blood-spattered datacard. Contains the last records of the only other marine to make it this deep. Grants an instant level-up.
Edit for new idea. Extradimensional satchel: a backpack that increases ammo stacks to 200% of their normal value, and allows small stacks of phase devices, medkits and environmental suits.
29
Discussion / Re: Can someone explain to me how angel of berserk is meant to be possible?
« on: January 10, 2009, 06:26 »Quoteif you understand the tactics it's possible and even fun.Load of bull.
No, it's true! But it requires a specific mindset, the same one that allows people to enjoy Angband. Don't let the Berserker skill fool you: winning AoB requires the most caution of all the challenges, barring AoMs.
30
Discussion / Re: Experience cap at level 19
« on: January 10, 2009, 06:16 »
Is there any solid gameplay reason to not have higher experience levels than nineteen? They wouldn't come into play during regular games, which can only go to level fourteen or fifteen (on UV). They would only matter in Ao100 games, and the main attraction of that challenge is the fact that it lets you build a ridiculously powerful player, so higher levels seems reasonable for them.