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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: zenfur on April 16, 2013, 13:02

Title: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: zenfur on April 16, 2013, 13:02
Hey folks, I am quite intermediate in this game, but I have always wondered what are the best (here I mean, your, veterans' experience) uses of the entitled stuff.

I find myself very rarely use Arena Master staff, as  turn on running and gtfo from swarming place is usually better than weaken everyone (as it doesn't kill even formers afaik).

Also I actually don't use skulls in other situations than limbo/mortuary.

To be honest I'd like to ask for your knowledge/opinion in the matter of Shockwave pack as well, as usually I end up not using it too. So? :)
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: LuckyDee on April 16, 2013, 13:28
I think the skulls and the shockwave packs - if you indeed don't need the skulls for L/M - are only worth carrying around if you have weapons, ammo, armors and medkits aplenty. I usually end up not using them either.

As to the Staff: it has another semi-secret use. If you want it spoiled, it's on the Wiki.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Ashannar on April 16, 2013, 13:39
This (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,1075.msg44595.html#msg44595) is the best use of a shockwave pack I've ever seen. Read this post and the next one.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: LuckyDee on April 16, 2013, 13:44
Very cute, too bad scrolling through your mortem thinking "crap I could have used that" is more common :S
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Klear on April 16, 2013, 13:46
I usually just (u)se the Staff right after the Arena Master dies to get rid of the formers around, but that's about it. I remember trying to use it to pass Unholy Cathedral ages ago before I knew better. It would rock against lost souls, if only it wasn't for their fire resistance.

When I find a blood skull and don't plan on using it in the mortuary, I treat it as a medkit. Fire skulls are dangerous, so I usually don't bother.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: zenfur on April 16, 2013, 13:51
This (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,1075.msg44595.html#msg44595) is the best use of a shockwave pack I've ever seen. Read this post and the next one.

Nice! Still pretty rare... Is it worth to keep it in backpack?

@Ashannar: btw, I was wondering who is the person who had name of my first ass kicking marksman marine :D [http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6359.0.html (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6359.0.html)] Gotcha!

I know that use of Arena Master staff, but it is planned to have some utility before that imo, so I ask about the time before that.
Oh, also one use of Arena Master staff which is worth mentioning are AoB/Strongman runs when you want to kill those pesky sergeants in open space. Sometimes.

Oh, I recollected one important use of hatred skull. I consider it best one, and sometimes even useful, as 60% def on demand is a nice thing. Also it has one secret use...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So I keep it sometimes just in case.

When I find a blood skull and don't plan on using it in the mortuary, I treat it as a medkit. Fire skulls are dangerous, so I usually don't bother.

How does it happen they are dangerous? They don't hurt ya.

I think that skulls could be useful at N! for perfect runs to destroy some random corpses, but I didn't play nightmare so can't tell.

I guess that hatred skull could be also possitively used at UC for clearing it without brute and getting badge - as you could zerk on those dead demons.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: bwross on April 16, 2013, 14:44
My approach is that if you're not taking these sorts of things somewhere specific to use them or at least have some real plan for it, then you should feel free to pick them up and use them as soon as possible for whatever reasonable benefit you can get.  Preferably on the same level, because if you pick these up on the chance you'll use it later and then move on to the next level, there's a good chance that they'll be forgotten and never used, and so they'll just rob you of an inventory slot for the rest of the game.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: zenfur on April 16, 2013, 15:00
Preferably on the same level, because if you pick these up on the chance you'll use it later and then move on to the next level, there's a good chance that they'll be forgotten and never used, and so they'll just rob you of an inventory slot for the rest of the game.

Assuming you find a random one I guess. Using that at the City of skulls has little sense :) Yea I actually am trying to locate and terminate my inventory stealers, that's what this topic did stem from.

Thanks for the replies so far. I think we didn't deplete the subject, so please go on.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Fanta Hege on April 18, 2013, 00:52
Arena Master Staff has only one use and one use only currently to be completely honest.
The attack effect it makes isn't powerful enough to waste a good run on.

Blood and Hatred skulls on the other hand.. They can be truly handy, specialy hatred skulls.
Fire skull? It's a bit meh really. And I don't like risking items blowing up using it either.
I could imagine it could be handy for damage when trying UC with no brute when used tacticaly, but then again, so is hatred for similiar use situation.

Honestly it'd be pretty nice if the staff's damage could be buffed up or atleast made non fire so it could be used for killing lost souls.
I wouldn't mind if fire skull's effect was made to have bit more kick either
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: White Rider on April 18, 2013, 01:40
Never found much use for the Arena Master's Staff outside of using it to open up the Vaults. I used to think I could get myself out of a bad spot, like getting surrounded by Lost Souls at a place like the City of Skulls. Then again, I dumped that mindset back in 0.9.9.6 when Lost Souls never wandered around and instead made a beeline for you. I bet the damage dealt from the Arena Master's Staff can take out an unfortunately placed group of formers in one shot, but how often does that happen where you would prefer to use an item and drain your stamina...?

I prefer using Hatred Skulls at Unholy Cathedral, and Blood/Hatred Skulls at Mortuary/Limbo. It's been awhile since I've used a Fire Skull...I think why I don't use them is because enemies in the endgame/Hell tend to resist fire damage. Aside from those two stages actually, I don't see myself using skulls all that much.

Something I need to learn how to do more effectively is corpse disposal, and I suppose skulls do just that.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Klear on April 18, 2013, 05:50
Honestly it'd be pretty nice if the staff's damage could be buffed up or atleast made non fire so it could be used for killing lost souls.

That was my idea too. Plasma would be great, and the Arena Master does plasma damage, so it would make sense. It would be a guaranteed kill on Lost Souls, though, which might be overpowered, and it would make CoS a lot easier for all builds. Lowering the staff's damage would result in it no longer killing formers, which would reduce its usability in the unchained court...
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: bwross on April 18, 2013, 12:29
If you want a plasma AMS, use the Subtle Knife, that's what makes it good.  Sure, you don't get the Subtle Knife very often... but that's a good thing, because being able to reliably sweep being swarmed by LSs in every game is a bit too twinky.  The AMS has its good use, and the cost is having to carry it across a lot of levels.

Assuming you find a random one I guess. Using that at the City of skulls has little sense :) Yea I actually am trying to locate and terminate my inventory stealers, that's what this topic did stem from.

Sure, you can't just burn them in the City for any benefit, but the rule about having a plan for them still applies. 
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Klear on April 18, 2013, 15:33
If you want a plasma AMS, use the Subtle Knife, that's what makes it good.  Sure, you don't get the Subtle Knife very often... but that's a good thing, because being able to reliably sweep being swarmed by LSs in every game is a bit too twinky.  The AMS has its good use, and the cost is having to carry it across a lot of levels.

I don't want a plasma AMS, I want the artifact to have some use during the game.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Evilpotatoe on April 18, 2013, 15:44
Maybe change his damages to 1/2 or 1/3 enemies current HP ("pure" damages, not affected by resistances, rounded down)

Note it wouldn't "work" anymore in CC, but is it a problem ?
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: bwross on April 18, 2013, 15:55
I don't want a plasma AMS, I want the artifact to have some use during the game.

But it does have a use.  And carrying it is the cost you pay until you can cash it in for other goodies.  If that's not good enough for you, you can always leave it and try teleporting instead. :)
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Klear on April 18, 2013, 15:56
Too useful against bosses. 2 (or 3) uses would kill everything.

I'm thinking more along the lines of changing the damage type and adding an additional cost to using it, but... yeah, that's the Subtle Knife. Making it the same as that is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: SageAcrin on April 18, 2013, 18:51
Add some knockback to the staff blast. 3-4 squares would allow you to use it as a kind of pseudo-escape effect, which, considering that it's competing with running, is fine enough.

Seems the fastest way to make it better without making it massively better.

Skulls are harder. Off the top of my head, ditch Fire Skull, make a Rock Skull(or something similar) that absorbs corpses for armor/boots durability(can't be too high, maybe 1-2% per corpse, portable durability restore is a unique effect), and make the healing effect on Blood Skull better.

Remember, it has to compete with a medkit. Getting 10 HP a corpse might be really good, but it's also a quite rare item and you still need a fair deal of bodies on the floor.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Tormuse on April 18, 2013, 22:54
Skulls are harder. Off the top of my head, ditch Fire Skull, make a Rock Skull(or something similar) that absorbs corpses for armor/boots durability(can't be too high, maybe 1-2% per corpse, portable durability restore is a unique effect), and make the healing effect on Blood Skull better.

I kinda like this idea.  It would certainly be a lot more useful than Fire Skulls, especially in Angel of Purity!
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Evilpotatoe on April 19, 2013, 01:18
Quote
Too useful against bosses. 2 (or 3) uses would kill everything.

Damaged would have been based on current HP, so I doubt spamming use would have been very useful.
Anyway, bosses would still need an exception, and I'm not sure the item would be that great.

For skulls, I like the portable repair idea, but I'd rather couple it with blood skull (healing your gear, somehow :p)

My suggestion for fire skull would be to
 - register every explosion before the first occurs (so that one exploding corpse doesn't prevent 4 other from exploding. ALL skulls in range would inflict damages)
 - change damage type to "holy fire". Something which wouldn't damage player or destroy items. Maybe not walls either.
 - Improve damages if necessary. The idea is to "nuke" the screen when it's filled with corpses. Outside of the mortuary, such situations just don't exist, so it would still need to compete with hatred skull. I'm not asking 100 damages per explosion, but a vile between 4 or 5 corpses should need improbable damages rolls to survive.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Deathwind on April 20, 2013, 07:08
Here's an odd idea, give the staff rocketjump style knockback? You might need to nerf the damage a bit but would give it some real use.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: dougjoe2e on April 22, 2013, 21:26
Given that the Arena Master is an Arch-Vile, and Arch-Viles raise the dead...

...is there some way the Staff could be used to raise a corpse that would then fight *for* you instead of against you.  (Maybe at the cost of Max HP, depending on what you raise...)
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Equality on April 22, 2013, 23:03
Subtle knife has atl-fire "Invoke". don't know what is it - but it drain 2 of hpmax and may be raise or summon something?
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: LuckyDee on April 23, 2013, 01:43
If I remember correctly, the original Subtle Knife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials) cut doorways between dimensions, or some such. Maybe it phases?
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: grommile on April 23, 2013, 13:30
Subtle knife has atl-fire "Invoke". don't know what is it - but it drain 2 of hpmax and may be raise or summon something?
The wiki says it does 10 BFG Plasma damage to all enemies in sight.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: dougjoe2e on April 23, 2013, 17:29
Other thoughts on what the Staff could do:


*shrug*
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Thomas on April 24, 2013, 02:12
Making it a melee weapon could be interesting. Considering that you have to fully complete Hell's Arena to get it, likely for a gun-toting doomguy and unlikely for a melee doomguy, it could be a melee weapon that's a chainsaw alternative for people who don't have brute - High accuracy with some drawback.

I'm not even sure if the game would play nice with an item that can be both used and equipped, though.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: dougjoe2e on April 24, 2013, 17:41
Another random thought about what the Arena Master's Staff could do:

If you are carrying it in your inventory when you die, it does 4d2 points of damage (not sure what type) to every enemy in sight.  You then gain half that much HP and are invulnerable for a few turns (3-5?).  The staff is then removed from your inventory.

Imagine:
"You Die!  Suddenly, the Arena Master's Staff glows a hideous crimson and hellish necrotic energies bring you back from the dead!"

...somewhat of a cross between an Amulet of Life Saving (ADOM/Nethack) and the Hell Mask from _Splatterhouse_.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Dreadlord on May 08, 2013, 05:25
Another random thought about what the Arena Master's Staff could do:

If you are carrying it in your inventory when you die, it does 4d2 points of damage (not sure what type) to every enemy in sight.  You then gain half that much HP and are invulnerable for a few turns (3-5?).  The staff is then removed from your inventory.

Imagine:
"You Die!  Suddenly, the Arena Master's Staff glows a hideous crimson and hellish necrotic energies bring you back from the dead!"

...somewhat of a cross between an Amulet of Life Saving (ADOM/Nethack) and the Hell Mask from _Splatterhouse_.

This idea is interesting. It could also work as a single charge for the staff - after you die, the charge is gone, but you arise and the staff remains only to act as a lockpick for the Vaults with its lousy fire attack.

Another problem here is that such a change does break the idea of a roguelike, where you  usually get no second/third/fourth/whatever chance for a given character.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: ZicherCZ on May 08, 2013, 06:10
Another problem here is that such a change does break the idea of a roguelike, where you  usually get no second/third/fourth/whatever chance for a given character.
On the contrary, some of the most known roguelikes have Amulets of Life Saving (ADOM, NetHack) or something similar (e.g. Blood of Life in ToME), which basically give you an extra life. Even further, these are normal, non-unique items (although extremely rare), and in theory you can have an infinite number of them. ADOM's wishes are a reliable way to receive those.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Dreadlord on May 08, 2013, 06:20
On the contrary, some of the most known roguelikes have Amulets of Life Saving (ADOM, NetHack) or something similar (e.g. Blood of Life in ToME), which basically give you an extra life. Even further, these are normal, non-unique items (although extremely rare), and in theory you can have an infinite number of them. ADOM's wishes are a reliable way to receive those.

Yes, this is yet another side of this question. Here we come up to the point of deciding whether we need an Item of Life here in DoomRL or not.

These items, I believe, will not just lay on the ground like ammo clips. :)

Personally I think it might be handy (homing phase devices, to some extent, belong to the category of life-saving items), however, obtaining such an item here must either be very difficult through special levels, or extremely unlikely as a random item spawn, like the homing phases. I don't think that the Arena Master's Staff which is discussed within this topic can potentially fulfill such a role. It will definitely require more balancing, like making the Chained Court tougher, or creating a completely new item used for such purpose in another special level.

I speak, of course, as a not-so-perfect player who already has enough issues and stupid deaths playing HNTR.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: dougjoe2e on May 08, 2013, 11:13
This idea is interesting. It could also work as a single charge for the staff - after you die, the charge is gone, but you arise and the staff remains only to act as a lockpick for the Vaults with its lousy fire attack.

Actually, I was thinking that the Staff would not remain after reviving you and hence could not be used as the lockpick for the Vaults (if you weren't there yet).  I also wanted to force a decision to be made at the vaults themselves: do I spend the Staff to crack the Vaults, or do I keep it and save the "Get out of Jail Free" card for later?

 
Yes, this is yet another side of this question. Here we come up to the point of deciding whether we need an Item of Life here in DoomRL or not.

These items, I believe, will not just lay on the ground like ammo clips. :)

Personally I think it might be handy (homing phase devices, to some extent, belong to the category of life-saving items), however, obtaining such an item here must either be very difficult through special levels, or extremely unlikely as a random item spawn, like the homing phases. I don't think that the Arena Master's Staff which is discussed within this topic can potentially fulfill such a role. It will definitely require more balancing, like making the Chained Court tougher, or creating a completely new item used for such purpose in another special level.

That's why I tied this effect to the Arena Master's Staff - there's only *one*.

I'm sure one could balance the life-saving effects as needed (maybe it really pumps you up on ITYTD but has some serious drawbacks on N!).  Whether or not DoomRL needs such an item is a debate for more experienced DoomRL veterans than myself... I just wanted to give the Staff a more compelling reason for lugged around all the time.
Title: Re: Practical use of skulls/Arena Master staff
Post by: Dreadlord on May 09, 2013, 03:08
Actually, I was thinking that the Staff would not remain after reviving you and hence could not be used as the lockpick for the Vaults (if you weren't there yet).  I also wanted to force a decision to be made at the vaults themselves: do I spend the Staff to crack the Vaults, or do I keep it and save the "Get out of Jail Free" card for later?
 
That's why I tied this effect to the Arena Master's Staff - there's only *one*.

Yes, this idea seems to be more balanced than my suggestion.