Chaosforge Forum

Other Roguelikes => Berserk! => Topic started by: Fingerzam on November 01, 2006, 21:57

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Fingerzam on November 01, 2006, 21:57

So, now that Kornel has promised to make a new version of Berserk! after finishing DoomRL 0.9.9, I thought it would be appropriate to make a thread for suggestions in order to improve the game.

I'll start with something.

Sometimes when I shoot with the crossbow, a hunter is left alive with almost dead status, and I really wouldn't want to use 3 more arrows just to finish it off.

For solving this I have a suggestion. Make the bow so that you can shoot 1 arrow at a time and each arrow takes 1/3 turn to shoot. This would require a bit different shooting system for making it less frustrating. You could for example have an aiming mode where you shoot arrows and from which you would then exit manually.

This isn't something critical, just something that's annoying me every now and then.

Another, much simpler thing:

I'd like to see some kill counter to know how many enemies I've killed so far.

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 02, 2006, 03:57

Quoting: Fingerzam

For solving this I have a suggestion. Make the bow so that you can shoot 1 arrow at a time and each arrow takes 1/3 turn to shoot. This would require a bit different shooting system for making it less frustrating. You could for example have an aiming mode where you shoot arrows and from which you would then exit manually.

Well, the reason why there are multiple shots is so the crossbow feels more like the one in the manga/anime, and I would like to keep it that way. I may however increase it's damage/hitchance to make it more likely to kill a hunter. Also, note that this is a perfect opportunity to use that knife that you havn't used :>

BTW, maybe I should decrease knife throwing time to make it more popular?

As for the ingame kill counter, ok, will be.

BTW, SUGGESTIONS ARE WELCOME! :D

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Fingerzam on November 02, 2006, 15:16

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

Well, the reason why there are multiple shots is so the crossbow feels more like the one in the manga/anime, and I would like to keep it that way. I may however increase it's damage/hitchance to make it more likely to kill a hunter. Also, note that this is a perfect opportunity to use that knife that you havn't used :>

Well, now that I think more about it, this sounds reasonable. How about having an option to shoot only 1 arrow instead of 3, but having it consume the same amount of time (or almost as much)?

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

Also, note that this is a perfect opportunity to use that knife that you havn't used :>

But I have only 5 knives! And because of this, I'm saving them up for a better situation (usually throwing them while berserking and in melee while a hunter is shooting at me)

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

BTW, maybe I should decrease knife throwing time to make it more popular?

I had exactly this in mind some time ago, when I was thinking about how to make the knife more appealing, but I had already forgotten about it. This sounds like a perfect solution for making knives more appealing. Perhaps dexterity could make 'em quicker to throw?

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Glowie on November 02, 2006, 18:58

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

BTW, maybe I should decrease knife throwing time to make it more popular?

I don't think this is necessary. Knives are very good at the moment, but I think there should be a bit more of them. I mean, you can shoot more than twenty times with the crossbow, but only have five knives. That's a bit unbalanced. I use up my knives before anything else, but I often die before I manage to use all my bolts. I suggest you decrease the amount of bolts and increase the amount of knives. I noticed that in the manga Guts' knife belt is a bit shorter than I originally thought, but then again, he doesn't shoot 72 bolts per fight either. But this is only my opinion.


Oh, and there's a neat, exploitable bug in the current version. After you lose half of your hp (berserking becomes enabled), you can bump into obstacles or the border lines to regenerate rage without consuming time. This equals full time berserking!

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Malek Deneith on November 02, 2006, 19:03

I second the idea of increasing the number of knifes - I mean, come on - this guy is swinging a sword bigger than himself, and he can carry only 5 knives?

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: sn0rb on November 03, 2006, 01:57

Thirding the idea of "Need me more knives~!", as well as having Dex decrease their firing time. Oh, yeah, and I likes Fingerzam's idea of a kill counter.

Some kind of Energy-consuming thrust attack might be good, too. (Charge forward three or so tiles and scatter enemies in your path!)

Also, why not include all three modes from the "Berserk! Advancement, levels and gameplay" thread (Campaign, Daycount, and The Massacre! modes)? Sure, it'll take... a lot longer, but I think it might be great for replay value. (As well as being an excellent end-of-work stress reliever!)

Bear in mind, these suggestions are coming from someone whose manga collection includes Golgo 13: The Thirteen Greatest Hits and the complete Magic Knight Rayearth, and the last anime he (accurately) remembers was Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon. I'm not even gonna comment about what's sitting in my PS2 right now (^_^;

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Fingerzam on November 03, 2006, 14:43

Quoting: sn0rb

Some kind of Energy-consuming thrust attack might be good, too. (Charge forward three or so tiles and scatter enemies in your path!)

Yeah, some more ways to use energy would be nice, like a charge attack and a single powerful blow. But willpower would need some nerfing in this case, since with 20 willpower energy regenerates so fast that you have infinite energy.

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Selric on November 09, 2006, 08:11

more moves would be nice, one in particular I would like to see (he has this in the PS2 game) is an overhead chop which does damage in in both the target direction and directly behind the player  [ex:  #@# ] where the #'s are damage radius and perhaps some thrust attack that attacks two spaces in a single direction. Then again, perhaps the "chop" I suggested could double as both and attack two forwards and one backwards making it attack three spaces like the sweep.

But this second suggestion is seriously the most important one of all. Improved documentation would be very welcome in the next build. I did not know how the sweep worked until I came to this forum and read in a post it was three spaces. I also did not know that it used up energy and I didn't know how any of the other special commands worked either. Most people can probably figure it out after playing it once but it would still be nice to know how to use them before playing the game.

Title: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 10, 2006, 13:46

This was a 7DRL version, so documentation was really low priority :). The next version will feature a full documentation system, like DoomRL does :)

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

Well, so far, I think the general consensus in regards to improvements for Berserk!RL are (so far):

~ Improved documentation. (I can help on this, so I'm not a total blob of inert matter after all! Yayayay English degree!)
~ More throwing knives!
~ Additional Energy-using moves (I'll list some below.)
~ A body count. (Possibly dark red text in the lower left corner.)

As for the "additional moves," we already have the sprint and the three-square sweep attack. Moves suggested by others (as well as what I can ripof- err, permanently borrow- from the D&D PHB) could be:

~ Charge attack (run forward three squares, knocking enemies out of your path- great for quick escapes!)
~ Fingerzam's powerful blow (expend a lot of willpower to deal massive damage in the given direction)
~ Selric's overhand slash (attack the square in front of you and behind you)
~ Selric's thrust attack (attack two squares in the same direction)
~ Spin slash (attack all eight squares around you, at expense of a lot of willpower)

Also slightly less necessary but still helpful:

~ Pickups (Throwing knives, fairy dust, Triple Crossbow bolts, and Arm Cannon charges.). Just walk on 'em and they're yours.
~ Difficulty levels that buff/debuff enemies (Easy/Normal/Hard are too typical- something like Tough/Tougher/You've *Got* to Be Kidding. =p)

And last, but certainly kinda least:

~ Different gameplay modes (Campaign/Day Count/The Massacre!)

Whoo, these are the thoughts that make me want to learn programming and try to help Kornel out x_X

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 23, 2006, 09:48

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

~ Improved documentation. (I can help on this, so I'm not a total blob of inert matter after all! Yayayay English degree!)
~ More throwing knives!
~ Additional Energy-using moves (I'll list some below.)
~ A body count. (Possibly dark red text in the lower left corner.)

Agreed on all :). I'm putting them all on the ToDo list.

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

As for the "additional moves," we already have the sprint and the three-square sweep attack. Moves suggested by others (as well as what I can ripof- err, permanently borrow- from the D&D PHB) could be:

I'm not all for copying from D&D -- many moves from it seem bland, and would be boring IMHO. But some of them may see it into the game. Out of my personal list here are a few: Ghostwalk, Impale, Charge

I noted your suggestions down.

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

~ Spin slash (attack all eight squares around you, at expense of a lot of willpower)

I somehow barely see that one done with the Dragonslayer :-P

Also slightly less necessary but still helpful:

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

~ Pickups (Throwing knives, fairy dust, Triple Crossbow bolts, and Arm Cannon charges.). Just walk on 'em and they're yours.

This one is somehow problematic, because the objects can't appear out of thin air? There will be objects between levels in the campaign mode for sure, but for others I don't yet know.

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

~ Difficulty levels that buff/debuff enemies (Easy/Normal/Hard are too typical- something like Tough/Tougher/You've *Got* to Be Kidding. =p)

Normal, Nightmare, Real :D.

Difficulty levels might be implemented for Survival and Days mode.

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

And last, but certainly kinda least:
~ Different gameplay modes (Campaign/Day Count/The Massacre!)

Sure ^_^.

Quote from: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 09:22

Whoo, these are the thoughts that make me want to learn programming and try to help Kornel out x_X

Hah, the sources of Berserk are open, so you can freely take a look ^_^.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Malek Deneith on November 23, 2006, 09:56

Quote

I somehow barely see that one done with the Dragonslayer :-P

He did that a few times IMO, the most notable one beeing probably the moment when he finally appeared at Casca's side when she was at cultists place (no way I'm going to belive that one was the simple "3 square" swipe :P)

[EDIT] Found the scene I was thinking about - almost perfect 360 degrees swipe. picture below
(http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/8599/berzerkuc2.th.jpg) (http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=berzerkuc2.jpg)

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 23, 2006, 10:11

Buaaaah! Talk about kickin' ass! :D

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: sn0rb on November 23, 2006, 10:19

I'm... gonna wisely assume that the center of that blood tornado is Guts. (^_^;

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Igor Savin on November 25, 2006, 05:23

(thought about creating a separate topic called "Time in BerserkRL", but decided against it for now)

Having died (no big surpise) once again in BerserkRL I had the following idea: translate turn count into real time count. There's something more touching in "X have survived through 4 hours 32 minutes 15 seconds of hell and killed whopping bunch of 971 ugly creatures" than in a boring "...19942 turns...".

This brings us to several different points. First, of all, "turn" seems like a generally little amount of time, and most probably all of us will agree that striking someone with a sword or making a step barely takes more than one-two seconds. And this means that if and when "Day Count" is implemented, we should either limit "The Night" to 10-20 minutes, or take a liberty of declaring it actually takes *minutes* for hero to swing his tool.

Here come other things I've been thinking of. First of all, I don't know how Kornel is planning to organize "train und restock" system in Day Count\Campaign. Mundane "XP\Gold" system doesn't feel right for Berserk. So I've though that maybe it could work, if the only valuable resource would be time. That's right - in between of battles hero has 6-8 hours, which he can spend to produce bolts, brew dust, train himself or treat his wounds (maybe HP should automatically restore to ~50% each day, or maybe fully, that's worth special consideration). We could even reward hero for quick and efficient disposing of enemies, which can be done in a following way: after fight time (5-10 minutes, maybe +1 each day) is over, monsters spawn no more (and fight is not over until there's only one), and the quicker the level is cleaned, the more time player will get to spend (so it would be unworth to run from enemies all the time). Of course that's not very logical since the difference would be 1-2 minutes, and how the hell does that give or take free hours? This can be explained by hero being on the edge and overstraining himself, so the longer is combat, the more he actually takes to recover (not in Energy\HP sense, which are "short-runned" but in some long-termed way).

Any comments on that?

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 25, 2006, 06:01

Quote from: Igor Savin on November 25, 2006, 05:23

(thought about creating a separate topic called "Time in BerserkRL", but decided against it for now)

Having died (no big surpise) once again in BerserkRL I had the following idea: translate turn count into real time count. There's something more touching in "X have survived through 4 hours 32 minutes 15 seconds of hell and killed whopping bunch of 971 ugly creatures" than in a boring "...19942 turns...".

Very true, and very good -- I thought about that too, but the question of turn time turned me off :).

Quote from: Igor Savin on November 25, 2006, 05:23

Here come other things I've been thinking of. First of all, I don't know how Kornel is planning to organize "train und restock" system in Day Count\Campaign. Mundane "XP\Gold" system doesn't feel right for Berserk.

The original idea was very simple -- a level each day :). That way, the bloodshed wouldn't be interrupted by stupid level-up screens. And as you don't choose your fights, nor don't have any way to avoid them, counting XP would be mindless. As for restocking it would be a choice list every day in Day mode, and depending on place in Campaign mode.

Quote from: Igor Savin on November 25, 2006, 05:23

So I've though that maybe it could work, if the only valuable resource would be time. That's right - in between of battles hero has 6-8 hours, which he can spend to produce bolts, brew dust, train himself or treat his wounds (maybe HP should automatically restore to ~50% each day, or maybe fully, that's worth special consideration). We could even reward hero for quick and efficient disposing of enemies, which can be done in a following way: after fight time (5-10 minutes, maybe +1 each day) is over, monsters spawn no more (and fight is not over until there's only one), and the quicker the level is cleaned, the more time player will get to spend (so it would be unworth to run from enemies all the time). Of course that's not very logical since the difference would be 1-2 minutes, and how the hell does that give or take free hours?

That's exactly the problem :). I think the level/items per day system would work fine. Yet I still would like to get rid of those turns.

Comments are welcome.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Igor Savin on November 25, 2006, 06:24

(Is there a way to quote only part of a message, without manuallt cutting the quote?)

\the question of turn time turned me off.\

What's wrong with it?

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 25, 2006, 06:47

I mean realisticaly it should be at MOST 5 seconds per turn (and that's already a big exaggaration).

As for the quote button, unfortunately you can onlt manualy quote the message partaily. Once I have some spare time and energy I'll write a mod for SMF that changes the behaviour of the quote button to the minibb style.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: sn0rb on November 26, 2006, 21:34

Average turn duration should be 2.5 seconds- keeps things moving rather quickly (but would, rather unfortunately, lead to characters lasting about three hours T_T)

Igor: For health regeneration at the start of a day, you're topped off if you have 51~100% of your health. Otherwise, you heal to 50% (because Guts's body is too grievously injured to recover properly.)

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Igor Savin on November 26, 2006, 23:07

sn0rb: good point.

*speaks to himself* Now that I feel more and more bold using Valkyrie every day, I have a strange notion to do things in unberserkish way and, as soon as the next version is released, to create a branch with everything that is not to be...

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on November 27, 2006, 01:01

It's an evil temptation Igor, but one that realy inspires me :).

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Karry on December 03, 2006, 03:29

How about throwing in a giant monster, once in a while, and killing him will drop you in "Heaven/Hell", where you can try and do some minor damage to the "gods", for a few bonus points. More glorified way to die, basically.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 03, 2006, 05:03

I like your spirit Kerry :). If campaigh mode sees daylight there will be a final boss. And he will be scary :D

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Karry on December 03, 2006, 05:21

The "final boss" phrase suggests killability. My idea was that "gods" are immortal, you just struggle with them for a dozen of turns, and the damage you manage to do to them gets slapped with a big multiplier and added to the final score.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 03, 2006, 05:22

The boss would just be an Apostole. And after killin' him you'd die anyway :).

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: sn0rb on December 03, 2006, 23:55

Kornel: By "scary," do you mean "WHOAAAAAAAAAAA SHIT ARCHVILE" scary, or "Jesus H. he just wimped off 85% of my health in one attack!" scary? =p

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 04, 2006, 05:34

Not only, he will be also scary in another meaning ^_^

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: RickVoid on December 04, 2006, 14:41

Creepy SFX?

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 04, 2006, 16:04

Nope, something yet unseen in any roguelike game :>

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Karry on December 04, 2006, 23:18

speech...

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: TFoN on December 26, 2006, 06:13

Ahhh, multi-tile...

Title: I don't need MORE knives.
Post by: Remisa on January 03, 2007, 06:45

In Berserk, what knives are better than crossbow bolts is..
He can always REUSE them.
(They have much durability than bolts/arrows)

Just allow picking up thrown knives.
They should not disappear without any reason.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Elohssa on April 23, 2007, 17:56

Quote

Some kind of Energy-consuming thrust attack might be good, too. (Charge forward three or so tiles and scatter enemies in your path!)

I gotta second this one.  Say move 3-4 spots, knocking everyone next to you back a step (maybe no\light damage), and hurting anything in your path (and knocking them aside\ahead.)  That would be impressive.  THAT would be worth building up strength to get.

More knives!

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: sn0rb on April 26, 2007, 14:22

Quote from: Remisa on January 03, 2007, 06:45

In Berserk, what knives are better than crossbow bolts is..
He can always REUSE them.
(They have much durability than bolts/arrows)

Just allow picking up thrown knives.
They should not disappear without any reason.

Thrown knives, you should be able to pick them up assuming you miss with them. Guts seems to be a pretty powerful sort, so I'd imagine that whatever he hits with a knife is gonna have it sunk all the way to the hilt.

And let's be honest, Remisa, would you want to waste time ripping an easily replaceable knife out of a bulldemon's skull? =p

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on April 26, 2007, 14:29

Reusable Knives are out of the question. The Berserk! engine doesn't support item pickups, and implementing them just for knives would be a waste :/. Also this would break the "constant massacre" feel IMHO. How many times did you see Gutts pick up anything during a fight? xD

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: TFoN on April 28, 2007, 09:01

And considering Endless mode has ammo restocks, knives ARE, in a sense, picked back up.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Jerry Swain on February 18, 2008, 08:24

How about bosses? Like after reaching an insane kill-count (around 500+), apostles start appearing, at (1000) and every 100 beyond, Members of God-hand, with Femto at the end? Though, I doubt someone would be 'Gutsy'[pun intended ;)] enough to fight on that long.

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Sachiko on March 28, 2008, 09:01

Quote from: TFoN on December 26, 2006, 06:13

Ahhh, multi-tile...

Sorry for necroing the topic, but I just couldn't resist saying that there already EXIST multi-tiled monsters. In Iter Vehemens Ad Necem, there are two 4-tiled monters, Genetrix Vesana, a giant carnivorous plant, and Elpuri, a giant frog.

So, the never seen scare must be something really evil. Something that really makes you crap in your pants when you see that big bad letter entering the screen...

Title: Re: Ideas and Suggestions For the Next Version of Berserk!
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on March 30, 2008, 23:19

Some topics are meant to be necroed, this is one of them :P

And if I ever make it it will be something that will be truly original ^_^