Chaosforge Forum
Other Roguelikes => DiabloRL => Topic started by: TFoN on December 24, 2006, 13:55
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You all probably know how in Diablo, game-restart w/developed char and difficulty levels make for very high playability and char development, but I've thought about it, and it might hamper scoring and ranking, which we all seem to enjoy very much in DoomRL.
So, I've thought up a system which should be able to implement both sides, and possibly more (that is, whenever difficulty levels will even be used here :) ):
- there are the normal Diablo difficulties: Normal, Nightmare and Hell
- unless monster spawning will be implemented (is this even being considered?), games can be restarted like in Diablo
Each new character is then restricted as so:
- you can start on any of the difficulty levels
- you can go to higher diff.lvls with little restriction (maybe some requirements like with DoomRL), restarting the game world as usual
- you cannot, however, go back to easier diff.lvls with that char
- like in Diablo, by limiting XP gain or the like, you can only reach certain char.lvls on lower diff.lvls, making restart-scumming much less useful
- in order to encourage and reward harder play, relatively minor perks, like extra stat-gain, will be given for leveling up on higher diff.lvls. This way, the earlier you enter higher difficulties, the more potential your char will have throughout the entire game, while not easing it up so much that higher diff.lvls are "the same but different". This may make some items and spells only realistically (or possibly officially) usable by hard players, making the very hardest stages reachable by others - but only passable by them
I'm very much looking forward to everyone's thoughts and feedback on this one.
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I thought about this too but didn't really bother posting because DIabloRL is quite early in the developement stage ;)
Anyway, my idea would be to only allow restart with characters who successfully finished the game. Sorta like Chrono Trigger etc. The game creates a victory save that allows you to start a new game at the next higher difficulty setting (_not_ the same) and o/c deletes the save upon start.
This would keep the rogue like feel of the game (no simple restart for item/xp scumming) and it would make beating the game on higher difficulties a real challange because you have to make it thorugh all the lower difficulties with that char. And it wouldn't break the score system.
And if this turns out to be too hard a certain item from other RLs might find it's way into DiabloRL ;D
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Frostmourn this time? :P
I'm a little afraid that it will prove a bad thing, going through the ENTIRE game just to get to more challanging grounds, and then go YASD and do it ALL over again, when the most serious strain is the numbing ease of Normal.
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Frostmourn this time? :P
I thought more along the lines of a free AoLS whenever you move up to a higher difficulty :p
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Frostmourn this time? :P
I thought more along the lines of a free AoLS whenever you move up to a higher difficulty :p
Hehehe :P
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OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.
Diablo 1
Single player
- No difficulty setting
- Restart any time
- Redo quests
- No XP for weak enemies
- Walk through all the levels (no short cuts)
Multi player (Only played two or three times years ago)
- Difficulty settings
- Acceess to difficulties based on clvl
- Restart any time
Diablo 2
Single player
- 3 difficulty settings
- Each character has to unlock the higher difficulties by beating the game
- Restart any time
- Quests can't be redone
- No XP for weak enemies
- Waypoints are kept
- You can come back to lower difficulties
Multi player
- 3 difficulty settings
- Each character has to unlock the higher difficulties by beating the game
- Restart any time
- Quests can't be redone
- No XP for weak enemies
- Waypoints are kept
- You can come back to lower difficulties
- Hardcore mode
My initial suggestion would be like the hardcore mode in D2: You have to beat the lower difficutlties with each character seperatly to unlcck the higher ones and if you die you die for good. And the saving system is also like in RLs. You save when you exit and load when you start a game and you can't back up your save etc.
The only two differences are restarting (= creating new games in multi player) which is a source for items/gold/XP and the ability to go back to lower difficulties.
So the difficulty depends on how balanced the game is and how much you have to rely on luck. In D2 you had to spend most of the time prior to playing hell difficulty on the hunt for items. Mosty resistance items since hell reduces all resistances by XX (was it 60%? not sure). So all you did was do Mephisto/Baal runs intil your equipment was up to the task.
For DiabloRL I'd stick to what I said in my first post, including the possibility of an AoLS. Having to paly through all difficulties and restarting on normal once a char dies isn't really the issue. It's how long a single run takes. e.g. if you can beat normal in 1 hr and die halfway through nightmare it's not a big deal. If normal takes 20hr then it is.
Other RLs (ADoM, Nethack) can also be quite long (10+ hrs) and you also don't get to "restart" for XP/item scumming so I don't think it is essential here either IF the game is balanced.
Maybe you could implement restarting as sort of a training option and see how it works out (balance). It would allow the character to restart the game with the current character but doing so bars that character from moving up to the higher difficulty.
Another big question is how to handle quest rewards on higher difficulties. D2 had no pre defined items as rewards but D1 did and the Cleaver isn't really much of a reward on Hell :p
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OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.
Diablo 1
Single player
Not completly true - in Hellfire addon you could choose difficulty levels.
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OK, let's look at the "originals" and see what we can come up with.
Diablo 1
Single player
- No difficulty setting
- Walk through all the levels (no short cuts)
Not completly true - in Hellfire addon you could choose difficulty levels.
And it saved "gates" you've entered previously with that char, like the crack to Hell.
Other RLs (ADoM, Nethack) can also be quite long (10+ hrs) and you also don't get to "restart" for XP/item scumming so I don't think it is essential here either IF the game is balanced.
These games have lots of monster spawning, and methods to use them for good item gain (i.e. sacrifice, which can also be heavily scummed).
That's why I said in my first post "unless monster spawning will be implemented", but I deem this VERY outside the spirit of Diablo ("undiabloish" just doesn't sound right :P ).
Yes, you said "IF the game is balanced". Absolutely true. But a one-run Diablo game would require, IMO right now, either very early ability-gain and quick XP jumps or a massively tweaked late/end-game, either way making all the different ability-monster crosses crowded (i.e. pitting lvl1 novas against horned-demons and steel lords, neither of which happened often in Diablo, for different reasons). And the way I see it, that's too-much not what the original game was about (even if this one's still a good game).
Another thought I had, however, and I think won't ruin the original feel much and won't hamper scoring, is a much longer dungeon, maybe with a shortish, crowded end-game like in Diablo, with "pick-and-play" ordinary difficulties, with a quickly escalating game as the challenge of harder difficulties (like with DoomRL).
But I still believe mid-game/made-char restart is a main feature of Diablo, very much worth keeping (although, yeah, tweaked to prevent easy escape :P WoW's exit-interval in game-turns?).
I think your idea of testing game-restart as a training option at first's a good idea, if Kornel can handle the load :) (Keep up the good work, man! Can't stress it enough)
As for Cleavers in Hell - could make it interesting and make unlockable item abilities for massive use and/or XPlvl.
The Cleaver could then give a strength bonus proportional to your level, and after the 600th kill/30th lord kill/100,000 XP gain with it (depending on method of balancing), gain a good chance to vorpal strike ;)
That would make pre-gens the same on every difflvl, but still way better on the higher ones (30 lords on Normal come very slowly, 100,000XP hard to gain on weakened monsters), if you play right. It also wouldn't be much off Diablo spirit, with D2's sets and XPlvl requirements.
PS: this is why I mentioned my idea now - better bring these things up early, so programming can go on later with a list of ready ideas and with less sudden questions.
Also, it lets Kornel know we're still interested :)
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My initial suggestion would be like the hardcore mode in D2: You have to beat the lower difficutlties with each character seperatly to unlcck the higher ones and if you die you die for good. And the saving system is also like in RLs. You save when you exit and load when you start a game and you can't back up your save etc.
The only two differences are restarting (= creating new games in multi player) which is a source for items/gold/XP and the ability to go back to lower difficulties.
So the difficulty depends on how balanced the game is and how much you have to rely on luck. In D2 you had to spend most of the time prior to playing hell difficulty on the hunt for items. Mosty resistance items since hell reduces all resistances by XX (was it 60%? not sure). So all you did was do Mephisto/Baal runs intil your equipment was up to the task.
as a diablo2 addict, i agree that you should have to beat the lower difficulties first. when it comes to permadeath im kind of torn. yes, its a major "feature" of roguelikes, however, like you say, if each difficulty takes an hour, its ok. but ..i dunno the essence of diablo is really like you say, a hunt for items until you reach the "real" difficulty level.
and i like that, spending loads and loads of hours, just to find the ultimare random or unique item, to prepare yourself for hell difficulty.
and if this game turns out similarly, it would pretty much suck if your spend 6-7h in normal/nightmare, only to see all you collected vanish from a some stupid mistake once you enter hell :P
oh, i believe resistances goes -50% (or 40%) once you enter nightmare, and then to -100% on hell.
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Nice, I love this suggestion. I agree with the hardcore game of completing difficulties consecutively (I think that what y'all saying). Uh...if spawning is implemented, I suggest that It'll be limited for so many times per floor, so that it can be possible to fully eradicated everything on the floor if you have the time (and bloodlust) to hunt them all down. Spending time on a game before proceeding to the upper levels isn't too bad scumming if you're limited in enemies to find and items. I do kinda think if you finish the game, it'll jump directly to the next difficulty for round two so I guess before you get to that point you do all that you can before then.
Wow though, what if you're still hungry for some whoop-ass after a healthy helping of hell? That REALLY have to wait til later. =)
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I agree with the hardcore game of completing difficulties consecutively (I think that what y'all saying).
Well, not quite "all" of us. I'm mostly against it (read the first post), but also see below.
Wow though, what if you're still hungry for some whoop-ass after a healthy helping of hell? That REALLY have to wait til later. =)
In the original, the hero takes Diablo into himself in the end. Maybe his journy east? ^^
As for the different opinions, if there's a hardcore mode in D2, why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
But game-restart's just too Diablo to miss out on, and really should be a part of regular play.
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But game-restart's just too Diablo to miss out on, and really should be a part of regular play.
To me it was actually not important at all. D1 was balanced enough so one could beat it without restarting and D2 was designed to be more or less the opposite. You HAD to to restart a zillion times to prepare for Hell which is not really fun. That is also why I never beat D2 on Hell even though I played through Nightmare a few times, I just couln't get myself to restart for a week just so my char can survive more than 15 minutes on Hell :/
That is the same reason why I stopped playing DoomRL on Nightmare! for now. It also just a long, bring grind early on.
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Well, I kept slaughtering D1 Normal monsters also in my late XPlvls just for interesting items, books and high spell levels, to discover new monsters, and just 'cause I'm a sadistic bastard :P
So I guess our playing styles are just a bit different ^^
With Diablo2 I never really made it past Normal 'cause I refused to take skills on such a technical basis (I was playing for atmosphere, with things like compulsory bone-armor for my necromancer, raising the dead becuase I can, eventhough skeletons were too weak at the time).
Although I still want to try that sometime, just to see if I can... :)
That is the same reason why I stopped playing DoomRL on Nightmare! for now. It also just a long, bring grind early on.
Try going on at lvl5 or so a few times if you haven't, see how far you'll get.
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As for the different opinions, if there's a hardcore mode in D2, why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them
good idea!
You HAD to to restart a zillion times to prepare for Hell which is not really fun.
well i dunno about that :), buy like TFoN said, you have to take the skills on a 'technical' basis (synergies etc), and also to build your equipment to help your selected skills, or to make up weakspots created by your specific build.
imo this is also a major feature in diablo (2 anyways), and i really hope this is included in some far off future version of diablorl :)
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Just to tell you that I'm not ignoring this discussion -- I'm reading carefully all you guys post :].
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so ..if permadeath is used in hardcore mode, how should death be handled in 'normal' play? like diablo, i.e run get your corpse? .. the rl 3059 has this, but it is also realtime, dunno how it would work in a turnbased game..
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so ..if permadeath is used in hardcore mode, how should death be handled in 'normal' play? like diablo, i.e run get your corpse? .. the rl 3059 has this, but it is also realtime, dunno how it would work in a turnbased game..
hum?
TFoN already answered that :p
why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
Permadeath should always be part of it. It's a RL after all :D
As for me, I still remain adamant on my opinion that the game should be balanced and not require restarts which in turn would make restarts obsolete.
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Not obsolete - fun ^^
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so ..if permadeath is used in hardcore mode, how should death be handled in 'normal' play? like diablo, i.e run get your corpse? .. the rl 3059 has this, but it is also realtime, dunno how it would work in a turnbased game..
hum?
TFoN already answered that :p
why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
Permadeath should always be part of it. It's a RL after all :D
As for me, I still remain adamant on my opinion that the game should be balanced and not require restarts which in turn would make restarts obsolete.
hum? ..now english is not my native language, but did i misread tfon totally? :P as i understand he meant add permadeath to a 'hardcore mode' in diablorl (like diablo2 has), not all difficulties? that would anyway be a good idea imo..
Tfon, please elaborate your previous post :D
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No problem :)
...if there's a hardcore mode in D2, why not add it as a hardcore mode here...? Permadeath should be a feature of all of them, IMO, 'cause it's a roguelike, afterall, but hardcore will feature consecutive play as the (major) challenge.
I assume you just missed the text marked in red, but in case you really misunderstood the words, the text in green means that the special part of hardcore mode will be playing Normal-Nightmare-Hell, once each and in that order.
That connects to my other posts, where I said the player should be able to start new games with a developed char, without going up in difficulty, like in Diablo.
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yeah i guess my eyes just skipped over that red highlighted part :P
That connects to my other posts, where I said the player should be able to start new games with a developed char, without going up in difficulty, like in Diablo.
is it like this in diablo1?, ..i cant remember, but in d2 its not like that anyways :)
EDIT: when you say 'start new games' w/o going up in difficulty, you simply mean when you restart the game and enemies are back everywhere?
well, then to clarify my own personal view on how to handle the death issue :P:
if the game turns out a quickie, permadeath would be fine in all diffuclties BUT, if its gonna be a long grinder like i hope:
basicly exactly the way it is in diablo2:
*normal difficulty: basicly a walk in the park, something you go through fast, fairly small dungeon levels, not very spectacular items. no resistance penalties
*nightmare difficulty: here's where the challenge gradually builds, larger levels and better equipment. resistance penalties.
*hell difficulty: should be ..hell. real hard, major resistance penalties, faster deadlier mobs, very large levels, and also chance for extremely good items
*hardcore mode: same as above but with permadeath, and a slightly raised chance for getting yet better items
EDIT: ok, i just re-read your initial post tfon :). i can agree with most thing you say. tho i dont think you should be able so start on any difficulty at once, i like stuff to be 'unlockable'. maybe free to start on nightmare, but hell should be locked until nightmare is finished
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But hardcore mode is just a mode, not difficulty level in d2. If you create hardcore character you start on normal level, then go through nightmare to hell (if you'll survive, of course). It has nothing to do with diff level you play on besides of making it a lot more challenging.
I think it should be made default in DiabloRL, because it's a roguelike and levels of Nightmare and Hell should be activated through character (not player!) progress in simmilar to DoomRL's way. Why not let playing the game on easier level if player wants? It would be boring but it's always fun to test powerful spells on hordes of weak skeletons. The xp gain should be dependant on clvl, just like in D2. By the way: there IS xp for weak enemies, but just very little.
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But hardcore mode is just a mode, not difficulty level in d2. If you create hardcore character you start on normal level, then go through nightmare to hell (if you'll survive, of course). It has nothing to do with diff level you play on besides of making it a lot more challenging.
By the way: there IS xp for weak enemies, but just very little.
A) That's why it's a difficulty level - because it's *harder* and *more challenging* :P IMO, "Hell" isn't more obviously a difflvl, considering you enter very powerful and can't pick it in the begining.
B) Not in D1, AFAIR.
That connects to my other posts, where I said the player should be able to start new games with a developed char, without going up in difficulty, like in Diablo.
is it like this in diablo1?, ..i cant remember, but in d2 its not like that anyways :)
EDIT: when you say 'start new games' w/o going up in difficulty, you simply mean when you restart the game and enemies are back everywhere?
It's the way I described it in D1, and the way you described in D2 - and by "start new games" I meant both, as they're close enough :)
I think DiabloRL should use the system from D1, though, 'cause it's based on it.
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I don't think a DoomRL style difficulty system (inlcuding the way they are unlocked) would work in DiabloRL. DoomRL is similar to Doom in the way that it is a realitvely short lived game. You run through the 25 levels and spank Cybie. No quests, no story, no randomly generated magic items etc. That also makes it different from RLs like Nethack or ADoM.
Diablo on the other hand is more of a classic dungeon crawler and the same should apply to DiabloRL. Even more so if it should indeed include the restarting option. Because trackings stats like in DoomRL with characters that can restart untill they are gods is kinda pointless.
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Although XP-control will limit godhood :P I tend to agree, and if there will be requirements, they should be very clear and general.
But adding challenges for hardcore games might make for some heavy gaming potential :)
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But hardcore mode is just a mode, not difficulty level in d2. If you create hardcore character you start on normal level, then go through nightmare to hell (if you'll survive, of course). It has nothing to do with diff level you play on besides of making it a lot more challenging.
By the way: there IS xp for weak enemies, but just very little.
A) That's why it's a difficulty level - because it's *harder* and *more challenging* :P IMO, "Hell" isn't more obviously a difflvl, considering you enter very powerful and can't pick it in the begining.
So it's just a challange, not a difficulty level :P Every difficulty level is mutually exclusive while hardcore mode isn't ;)
B) Not in D1, AFAIR.
That is right, but I was writing about D2.
I don't think a DoomRL style difficulty system (inlcuding the way they are unlocked) would work in DiabloRL. DoomRL is similar to Doom in the way that it is a realitvely short lived game. You run through the 25 levels and spank Cybie. No quests, no story, no randomly generated magic items etc. That also makes it different from RLs like Nethack or ADoM.
Diablo on the other hand is more of a classic dungeon crawler and the same should apply to DiabloRL.
I don't agree, because original Diablo is simple and generally not challenging hack'n'slash game. DiabloRL will also be short, with simple rules, backpack, with just a couple of classes. It will still be roguelikefied arcade game, so no storyline, demanding quests or real NPCs (which would have some other useful function than selling items). Does Kornel have an ambition to make Diablo real role-playing game? ;)
Even more so if it should indeed include the restarting option. Because trackings stats like in DoomRL with characters that can restart untill they are gods is kinda pointless.
You can corpse farm on N! and become a god in DoomRL too ;)
I thought of restart AFTER finishing the game. Player would have an option to choose higher diff level or stay on the same level and I have an idea of making higher difficulties harder with every game you play with the same char. So if you chose to play ten times on normal, the game would become damned hard on nightmare. That would quite prevent (boring!) scumming to 40 clvl and entering nightmare to rush through it like a young god. But if you'd like to enter lower difficulty just for fun - why not? No/little exp and crappy items would be no reward.
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DiabloRL will also be short, with simple rules, backpack, with just a couple of classes. It will still be roguelikefied arcade game, so no storyline, demanding quests or real NPCs (which would have some other useful function than selling items).
And this is a fact, yes?
Because right now Kornel never made even the slightest hint in that direction. Quite the opposite actually.
Actually there are a few features of Diablo II that I would like in DoomRL -> like the fun additional items, or the way levelling works (the skill-tree)...
Okay, the engine is ported to Valkyrie and Lua, so it's time to build a feature list for DiabloRL 0.5.0. I have some things already planned, but I would like to know your opinion :). Bear in mind that this will still be an early version, so please don't ask for all te dungeons, additional (beyond Diablo) quests, full magic system etc. I would like to make a list of things that need to be implemented for the DiabloRL 0.5.0 release. Post your proposed list!
If DiabloRL ends up being acard style like DoomRL then I wouldn't care about the specifics anyway because that would just plain suck. A watered down game like Deus Ex 2 :(
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No, no, DaEezT, I mean that original Diablo is quite an arcade game to me. Kornel wrote that he wants to make DiabloRL basing on Jarulf's Guide and thus making it very close to the original. Diablo isn't very complicated and you expect DiabloRL to be a great epic tale?
If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
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I don't think a DoomRL style difficulty system (inlcuding the way they are unlocked) would work in DiabloRL. DoomRL is similar to Doom in the way that it is a realitvely short lived game. You run through the 25 levels and spank Cybie. No quests, no story, no randomly generated magic items etc. That also makes it different from RLs like Nethack or ADoM.
Diablo on the other hand is more of a classic dungeon crawler and the same should apply to DiabloRL. Even more so if it should indeed include the restarting option. Because trackings stats like in DoomRL with characters that can restart untill they are gods is kinda pointless.
yeah i agree with the above. concerning the restarting issue, it doesnt really matter how that turns out imo.. i play d2 regularly and i very seldomly use it (not to say that there aren't those who do, but who cares?), when i get tired of a session, i usually play until i find the next waypoint, save & exit and start from there the next time..
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i play d2 regularly and i very seldomly use it (not to say that there aren't those who do, but who cares?), when i get tired of a session, i usually play until i find the next waypoint, save & exit and start from there the next time..
And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?
I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting. I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too.
Guys, don't get me wrong, I don't want DiabloRL to have unlimited and uncontrolled restart possibility. It would just be fun to be able to play some character until he dies, not until he finishes the game at chosen difficulty level. Something new, something fresh. But it has to be well-thought, that's obvious.
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And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?
yeah, then they go to the museum. what do you usually do with your characters when you finish a game? :P
I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting.
i just said i did, if you believe me or not ..i dont care
I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too
are you suggesting i should play the game in one run? :D
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No, no, DaEezT, I mean that original Diablo is quite an arcade game to me. Kornel wrote that he wants to make DiabloRL basing on Jarulf's Guide and thus making it very close to the original. Diablo isn't very complicated and you expect DiabloRL to be a great epic tale?
I never read anything about "making it very close to the original." from Kornel. But, as I already quoted above, he did say that things from Diablo II might make it into DiabloRL.
If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
Depends on how you define de boundaries of that "category". Nethack could also be seen as a "hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements" depending on how exactly you define the terms. I definitely don't consider Nethack to be some kind of epic, character driven, uber RPG with a novel grade story.
About the whole "acarde game" thing:
DoomRL was based on Doom, but only theme wise! Items, monsters, basic story are from Doom but that's it.
Doom didn't have inventory system, equipment system, traits (BIG feature), reloading/magazins, overcharging, special levels, destructible walls, etc.
So effectively DoomRL was sort of an advance over the original Doom (I said "sort of" because you can't really compare cross-genre). Especially the trait system as it makes things like pure melee or pure pistol possible and with the introduction of weapon mods it gets even better.
So I naturally expect the same basic tendency from DiabloRL. And NO, I don't expect the next version to be OMGWTFBBQUBER ADoM³ or whatever but the basic tendency should be to take the theme and the good parts and combine them with non-Diablo elements to make a good game istead of making it a watered down clone.
That is why I am very opposed to the thought of DiabloRL ending up as some kind of "arcade" game. AFter all, it already had features like character stats, spells, items/Artifacts, side quests, inventory system, equipment system, in-game story elemnts (talk to NPCs) which are all things that Doom didn't have, and DoomRL turned out to have <edit>some of</edit> them.
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So many viewpoints...
So officially we have but a few choices to do with difficulty level, and level restarts. I'm gonna list them cause reading this thread is making my head hurt.
1 - Using a hardcore single character and going up in difficulty;normal,nightmare,hell.
2 - Using a hardcore single character that will unlock later difficulties, but can play previous one before proceeding.
3 - I don't really like the others...
While it's true DiabloRL should remain towards the RogueLike roots and the traditions of Diablo, but what are the benefits from those options. Number two I rather not go with. RogueLike is all about risk, and because you completed the normal difficulty, why do you want to replay it with that strong character? Because really not only that your character not grow, but also deprive her from getting some kickass shtuff. Plus, it make your char look cheap.
In my opinion, I don't think there should be any looking back. Once you beat hell difficulty, she won, she's done.
And there's this other option I don't know if y'all already said it or not, but regardless, I'm sticking with option one.
4 - Using option two while other difficulties got more sh!t and more rewarding and juicy. Okey that is option two but whatever...
Edit:four posts started when I was typing. But I like DaEezT's last comment, the phrase is "away from traditions".
From Kornel's readme file..."Programmer''s edition -- how the author himself see''s the world of Diablo". It going which away from the start, so what's done to DoomRL, the same goes with DiabloRL.
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1 - Using a hardcore single character and going up in difficulty;normal,nightmare,hell.
[...]
While it's true DiabloRL should remain towards the RogueLike roots and the traditions of Diablo, but what are the benefits from those options. [...] RogueLike is all about risk, and because you completed the normal difficulty, why do you want to replay it with that strong character? Because really not only that your character not grow, but also deprive her from getting some kickass shtuff. Plus, it make your char look cheap.
In my opinion, I don't think there should be any looking back. Once you beat hell difficulty, she won, she's done.
I second this (because I wanted the same system all along :p)
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my major argument for having a mode WITHOUT permadeath, is the way diablo (& hopefully diablorl) is focused around the interplay between items and skills - if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
now, most roguelike have items that looks something like this:
a +0, +1 short sword
.. or when they really go wild maybe
a +3, +5 flail of the apocalypse, with one or 2 additional stats. i.e most of the time its not that hard to find what you need.
in diablo (again refering to no2) items might look like this:
Cloudcrack - Gothic Sword
One-Hand Damage: (42) To (120)
Two-Hand Damage: (97) To (180)
Required Level: 45
Required Strength: 113
Required Dexterity: 20
+150-200% Enhanced Damage (varies)
6% Chance To Cast Level 7 Fist Of The Heavens On Striking
Adds 1-240 Lightning Damage
10% To Maximum Lightning Resist
+30 Defense
Attacker Takes Lightning Damage Of 15
+2 To Defensive Auras (Paladin Only)
+2 To Offensive Auras (Paladin Only)
+2 To Light Radius
now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
now, of course i dont excpect as elaborate items as shown above, but its still very much the essence of both diablo games, finding the perfect randomised gear for your char.
as much all you hardcore RL'ers scream for permadeath, I as a hardcore D2'er, scream for a non-permadeath option :D
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now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
You just provided the solution to having permadeath and ph4t l3wt in a single pack: making special items appearance nethack-like. Perhaps a guaranteed "wish" after a certain quest (or completing a difficulty level) or just making nice items appear more frequently.
That way we can have both, what do you think?
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You just provided the solution to having permadeath and ph4t l3wt in a single pack: making special items appearance nethack-like. Perhaps a guaranteed "wish" after a certain quest (or completing a difficulty level) or just making nice items appear more frequently.
That way we can have both, what do you think?
was that a joke? sorry i dont quite follow you :P
nerf the ph4t diablo l3wt into nethack looking stuff? if thats what you mean, i think its the worst idea ever :D. and the wish part ..have i really smoked to many joints today, or is your english really weird? :)
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was that a joke? sorry i dont quite follow you :P
nerf the ph4t diablo l3wt into nethack looking stuff? if thats what you mean, i think its the worst idea ever :D. and the wish part ..have i really smoked to many joints today, or is your english really weird? :)
Wasn't a joke this time. :P
What I mean is that we have NICE Diablo stuff but with Nethack probability of getting it. That is why I said perhaps being able to "wish" for certain items, just like in Nethack, might be one solution to the problem: you would know that after completing each difficulty level or a certain quest, you would be able to wish for the item of your choice. This way you could get the weapons/armor you haven't found and you need for higher difficulties.
The other option was to just have them appear more frequently. In Roguelikes a good player knows how to use the items, so the difficulty would be to choose your equipment wisely to get the best weapons/armor/etc for your class/build combo. That's what happens in Crawl, too. You end getting up nice items, so the difficulty and the fun part of it is choosing what are the best -foo-s that suit your needs.
Making the nicer items too hard to find would make us play over and over again on "safe" zones until the item you want appears => repetition and boringness, in my opinion. Also, as you said, a killed character would make us angrier since we would have invested much more time in it.
And I don't think you should speak of weird English - yours is much weirder than mine :P.
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my major argument for having a mode WITHOUT permadeath, is the way diablo (& hopefully diablorl) is focused around the interplay between items and skills - if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
now, of course i dont excpect as elaborate items as shown above, but its still very much the essence of both diablo games, finding the perfect randomised gear for your char.
That basic idea is probably why we'll never find common ground :p
It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?
now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
That point makes no sense to me :/
What you saying is that because in Diablo II the drop rate for good items is so low that it takes long to farm it would be bad to have permadeath in DiabloRL?
As you mentioned yourself the chance of finding a good items is higher in Nethack and other RL's. That is because they have permadeath.
The drop rates in D2 have to be low because a palyer can just do Mephisto/Baal runs 24/7 but you can't do the same in Nethack.
The whole drop rate thing is part of the game balance and of course a balanced Rogue Like with permadeath would have different drop rates than Diablo II has.
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What I mean is that we have NICE Diablo stuff but with Nethack probability of getting it. That is why I said perhaps being able to "wish" for certain items, just like in Nethack, might be one solution to the problem: you would know that after completing each difficulty level or a certain quest, you would be able to wish for the item of your choice. This way you could get the weapons/armor you haven't found and you need for higher difficulties.
its not a bad idea, tho personally i like to hack my way to the items :). and in diablo2 there's is a few similar quests already, in act1 you get to 'imbue' a non-magical item, into a rare item with random properties, and later you are also rewarded a rare item. theres is however no way to wish for any specific items or stats. and just getting exactly what you wish for isnt any fun imo, i like randomness :)
The other option was to just have them appear more frequently. In Roguelikes a good player knows how to use the items, so the difficulty would be to choose your equipment wisely to get the best weapons/armor/etc for your class/build combo. That's what happens in Crawl, too. You end getting up nice items, so the difficulty and the fun part of it is choosing what are the best -foo-s that suit your needs.
Making the nicer items too hard to find would make us play over and over again on "safe" zones until the item you want appears => repetition and boringness, in my opinion. Also, as you said, a killed character would make us angrier since we would have invested much more time in it.
in diablo there already is a fun way to up you chances of getting better items, the Magic Find or MF stat, which appears on certain items, and on gems and runes, which you can insert into gear which is socketed (sacrificing other important runes & gems of course).
this would in my mind be a better approach, the nethack/crawl take on that, wouldnt be in the spirit of diablo imo.
i can agree to up 'the starting base' for finding good items a bit tho..
and like i previously stated, there really isnt any need to replay areas of d2 if you play the game right.
And I don't think you should speak of weird English - yours is much weirder than mine :P.
oh really? i guess i have smoked too many joints :P
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That basic idea is probably why we'll never find common ground :p
It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?
now i dont play mmo's, but like i said before, you dont HAVE to replay/farm areas in d2 to beat the game.
however, i personally love the idea of collecting gear for a specific build so i guess we're at a dead end there :D
now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalent, and gear is not as big part of the game as in the diablo series.
That point makes no sense to me :/
What you saying is that because in Diablo II the drop rate for good items is so low that it takes long to farm it would be bad to have permadeath in DiabloRL?
no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. the entire game is focused around the items. and you DO find them without farming, i've stated several times i dont farm myself and finish the game just fine :P
its just that when you find the perfect item it is so much more rewarding, than finding that apocalypse mace for the 50th time.
items in diablo are so much more diversesified and has so many more stats than most roguelikes, thats why its so much more rewarding finding items in d2. and since the randomness of the stats on items is so diversified, you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
As you mentioned yourself the chance of finding a good items is higher in Nethack and other RL's. That is because they have permadeath.
The drop rates in D2 have to be low because a palyer can just do Mephisto/Baal runs 24/7 but you can't do the same in Nethack.
drop rates on special über unique items from e.g baal is low, yes. but like i said before, you dont NEED those items, they are just the true icing on the cake when you get them. and wouldnt be much fun if you found them all the time..
The whole drop rate thing is part of the game balance and of course a balanced Rogue Like with permadeath would have different drop rates than Diablo II has.
and thats why i propose a separate 'hardcore mode' for all you hardcore RL'ers, like d2 hardcore mode which also have higher drop rates.
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And when you finish normal, you play nightmare, and when you at last finish hell you put your char to thrash?
yeah, then they go to the museum. what do you usually do with your characters when you finish a game? :P
If we are refering to Diablo, I play them until leveling becomes boring. I just play them for fun. Winning is not quite a goal in Diablo games, you should know that.
I don't believe you can finish game on all diff levels with one char without restarting.
i just said i did, if you believe me or not ..i dont care
What clevel did you have upon finishing each difficulty?
I mean using same waypoints several times is kind of restarting too
are you suggesting i should play the game in one run? :D
No, it's you who suggest that. You're telling us, that you ran through a game stopping only at waypoints treating them like saving game in rogulikes, which would be fine. Look closer at the bolded part of what you have quoted.
So why are you laughing now?
I never read anything about "making it very close to the original." from Kornel.
Ok, now I see that I misunderstood that Kornel's basing on Jarulf's guide part. But that was basis of my conception! Aargh! Stupid me ;)
If most of rules were implemented and even new dungeons, items, monsters, skills/spells were added, the final product would not fall into the same category as ADOM or Nethack, because Diablo is an arcade hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements!
Depends on how you define de boundaries of that "category". Nethack could also be seen as a "hack'n'slash game with just a cRPG elements" depending on how exactly you define the terms. I definitely don't consider Nethack to be some kind of epic, character driven, uber RPG with a novel grade story.
I mean those elements that doesn't exist in Diablo like whole interaction, extended inventory, using of items and so on. But since simplicity of Diablo has nothing to do with DiabloRL (my fault, my fault), I give up that argument.
That is why I am very opposed to the thought of DiabloRL ending up as some kind of "arcade" game. AFter all, it already had features like character stats, spells, items/Artifacts, side quests, inventory system, equipment system, in-game story elemnts (talk to NPCs) which are all things that Doom didn't have, and DoomRL turned out to have <edit>some of</edit> them.
Maybe it's just naming two different things by us. I consider Diablo partly arcade because of its simplicity mentioned many times before. I don't want to go further with DiabloRL. Quite the contrary, I'd love to see new features and enhancements which would make roguelike version more complex.
It's the reason why I could never stand to play a D2 character for more than a week or any MMO for a longer period of time. I loath the idea of having to farm specific gear for some specific build for a specific class because the game designers made the game too hard to beat otherwise. I can nuke/BFG/slice&dice Cybie, why do I need that Hammer Of Paladinism to kill Diablo?
I agree with you. Game should be playable in enjoyable way without need to restart your character to do the same quest dozens of times (that is balancing matter, of course).
But all this wasting of heroes after killing Diablo is just... undiablish ;)
It'll be ok, though, if DiabloRL will be a roguelike based on Diablo, not a roguelikefied game itself.
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no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. [...] you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
[...]
but like i said before, you dont NEED those items, they are just the true icing on the cake when you get them. and wouldnt be much fun if you found them all the time..
In the post I replied to you clearly said:
if you want to survive on hell you NEED gear specific for your class, and particular build.
YOU even capitalise "need" and said it in context with "specific class" and "particular" build.
need
• verb 1 require (something) because it is essential or very important. 2 expressing necessity or obligation
So, what is it supposed to be? First you say one thing and then you claim the opposite.
My answer was to that post and in that post you claimed that certain rare items are mandatory (= you need them) and then gave an example from Diablo II and based on that deducted:
now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later.. in nethack or whatever there's always a pretty good chance you can find that apocalypse mace or equivalen
And that simply does not make any sense at all.
You can't just use the drop rate (which is a specific feature of Diablo II) and transfer it 1:1 to another game (especially since that game isn't even half done if you believe the version number) and then argue the bad side of permadeath based on that.
Diablo II is not a RL!
Diablo II only has permadeath as an optional feature
Diablo II let's you restart as often as you want.
And those three factors influence the drop rate, NOT the other way around.
RL's are different in those any many other ways(they are turn based and give you unlimited time to devise a strategy) and of course that affects the drop rate and availability of items as every sword dipping cat lover knows.
Here's another nice quote and I don't know how it fits in.
the entire game is focused around the items. and you DO find them without farming, i've stated several times i dont farm myself and finish the game just fine
So you DO find them without farming and do 'just fine' eh?
So why keep arguing some non permadeath approach based on the arguement that it takes "hours and hours of dungeon crawling" to get specific items if you DO find them without farming and also do 'just fine'?
Since you contradict yourself I can draw two conclusions:
a) Specific items are needed in Diablo II and are also hard to find. In that case you don't need to worry because DiabloRL will not be a 1:1 D2 clone and be balanced in itself so the drop rates will be fine in the permadeath context.
b) Specific items are not needed in D2 and you just like to farm them for 'fun' (as it is not needed) to turn your character into a god even though you can beat the game 'just fine' without farming. In that case it would be pointless to have a restarting/non-permadeath system as you yourself stated that it's not needed and you can do 'just fine' without it. So leaving it out wouldn't hurt, or would it?
The main point of this and my previous post is:
The Diablo II SPECIFIC drop rates can not be translated into DiabloRL. Any arguement based on the rarity of Diablo II items has no meaning for DiabloRL as it is a completely different game.
It's the same as Doom vs DoomRL: Ideas/theme: yes; exact numbers: NO
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HOLY SHIT! And I thought I write scrolls :P
Ok, I'm trying to read most of it, but please forgive me if I write as if I missed an entire post - I may have.
no, what i'm saying is that items in diablo is of bigger importance than items in say nethack. [...] you dont need to search for one SPECIFIC item..
NetHack has intrinsics which are needed, [almost] period, to win the game, so that's not entirely true. Maybe "items" aren't needed, but there are other aspects to consider.
now, consider how much more angry you would be, after hours and hours of dungeon crawling, and you finally find that ultimate item for your character, only to see him permanently die a while later...
You haven't played much of Linley's Dungeon Crawl, have you...? That's *exactly* what happens there, and there are randarts just like in D2, and I've found myself punching walls and restarting computers out of spite :P That game's cruler than any other I've ever seen.
So yeah, shit happens, and then you start over, and over, and over again. I've beaten the game and there was *nothing* more rewarding than that.
However: this's exactly the reason I wan't massive playability with a single char - Pandemonium (infinite, rerolled "dungeon" with an extremely high level of risk) is the part of LDC you can just keep playing, (because I don't like the "she won, she's done" approach - I like having a char I sweated through to pit against powerful enemies over and over again, or weak ones just for show - I've earned it). Problem with Pandemonium is that it can get so tough at times, that it isn't really ment to be replayed that much - any char has its weak spot which is bound to be exploited badly in there, and some Pandemonium levels are practically auto-defeat, plus there's no easier spot to play that way if you're anywhere under a certain bar (negative energy, torment, hellfire and energy blasts *will* get the best of them sooner or later). The Abyss isn't much to compare, because from my experience it's only worse.
I LIKE collecting items (and spells), and playing god on lesser beings. That's why I imported a char from BGII:ToB into BGII:SoA (I just noticed - ToB=(S+1)o(A+1). Heh). A mage of that status's just plain fun!
That's nothing to do with balance - I'm just plain sadistic :P
And neither does mid-game restart, if that IS the method of balancing.
This is about gaming style - not *if* we wan't a good game but *how* we want a good game.
Some of us like it force-stream-lined and some of us like it freestyled, but I think we all agree we want a game not too easily beaten.
So I still say we just need both modes!!!
Since we've concluded (AFAIR) that scoring's based on an honour system, if someone beats the hardcore mode, he'll boast that, and if someone rampages through Diablo's halls as an ubermensch and wants to describe the story as a role-played massacre (which I like alot), so be it. If someone farms the normal mode and boasts as hardcore, screw him. The scoring system can also include a restart-counter for each game played.
But that's just on the matter of restartability.
I'm all against savegames ^^
And that's 'cause I'm also just plain masochistic :P
Seriously, now, that's just not for a roguelike.
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YOU even capitalise "need" and said it in context with "specific class" and "particular" build.
yeah, you obviously havent played d2 lately, what i've been trying to say all the time is that you dont need ONE SPECIFIC ITEM, i.e "the holy bat of milk" of whatever, in d2. what you do need is items with STATS that suits your specific class and build. this CAN be achieved by farming bosses for super-uniques, but it can just aswell be achieved by collecting rare items, which are totally randomized. which was my point, and which i also love hacking away to find. i've played dungeon crawl lots of times, and the randomization of items there is a joke compared to diablo really.
the fact that i said that i love to spend hours on finding items i still stand by. this IS what diablo is about!! the game is long enough as it is without loads of hours restarting...
My answer was to that post and in that post you claimed that certain rare items are mandatory (= you need them) and then gave an example from Diablo II and based on that deducted:
its funny how yall have such a clear idea of how a diablorl should look like, since you obviously dont know how diablo(2) really works, again it's the stats your'e after, and rare items are randomized so you really cant collect the same one twice..
(rare items was not in d1, i know, but since kornel hinted they will make diablorl, its still relevant i think)
You can't just use the drop rate (which is a specific feature of Diablo II) and transfer it 1:1 to another game
have i ever stated this? i even said previously that i could agree with and 'upped base' for finding special items. i just want an RL of the diablo games to stay true to the essence of diablo..
You haven't played much of Linley's Dungeon Crawl, have you...? That's *exactly* what happens there, and there are randarts just like in D2, and I've found myself punching walls and restarting computers out of spite :P That game's cruler than any other I've ever seen.
So yeah, shit happens, and then you start over, and over, and over again. I've beaten the game and there was *nothing* more rewarding than that.
actually i have played it several hours, and also been really close to some wall punching :P. diablo is a quite lighthearted, casual, easy-to-get into rpg.and this is also one point why i want a non-permadeath mode. call it kiddie mode, adventure mode whatever.
when i play an RL, i'm after a true strategic challenge, like you say 'nothing more rewarding than' beating it (not that i have).
this is not the case when i play d2 however, its more of a lighthearted thing i do for enjoyment and relaxation.
on hell its hard enough as it is, which is fine, but adding permadeath as a mandatory thing would totally destroy the diablo experience for me.
since were never gonna agree on this, i'll try to summarize my points on this. i'd want a diablorl that:
1. is as focused on items as the originals
2. have 3 difficulties like the original (the restarting thing.. doesnt matter how that turns out imo)
3. has modes both for permadeath and without, ..like d2
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I'm beginning to understand.
*crosshandz* You want and Everlaster mode and HardCore mode. OH CRAP, I just figure it out. \m/
If anyone played ToMEnet like I do, everlaster are guys that don't die. They just loss there's sh@t in there inventory, and are revived at towns. Unworldly, and Hellish(stats penalty is halved), are hardcore characters that once they die, THEY DIE!
But, uh...
Really though, while this is an nice idea. Let's wait awhile and make the HardCore mode as a default, before moving on into other modes. That way, we can see what we could work with before making additions, and balancing.
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Really though, while this is an nice idea. Let's wait awhile and make the HardCore mode as a default, before moving on into other modes. That way, we can see what we could work with before making additions, and balancing.
I agree: the game should be aimed (and thus balanced) so it's winnable in permadeath mode. Then, just for fun, add the other mode.
If the balancing is done with everlasting characters in mind (I played TomeNET a bit... and I felt a bit dissappointed:/ Perhaps I'll give it a try again, though :) ) you'll most likely end with an unbeatable game in hardcore mode. And that's no fun.
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*crosshandz* You want and Everlaster mode and HardCore mode. OH CRAP, I just figure it out. \m/
I agree: the game should be aimed (and thus balanced) so it's winnable in permadeath mode. Then, just for fun, add the other mode.
yes this is sorta what i was aiming for. drop rates could be lowered slightly in this mode, and any YAVP should of course clearly state that it was played in kiddie mode or whatever :)
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It's nice when people listen to each other :P
Mmm if I understand this idea correctly, it's not quite what I had in mind. I'm still saying permadeath should be kept in all cases... Just balance the game in normal mode so that only pulling really stupid stunts will get you killed. Hence the term, YASD ;)
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I'm still saying permadeath should be kept in all cases... Just balance the game in normal mode so that only pulling really stupid stunts will get you killed. Hence the term, YASD ;)
\o/
(yes, I really do want permadeath)
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Mmm if I understand this idea correctly, it's not quite what I had in mind. I'm still saying permadeath should be kept in all cases... Just balance the game in normal mode so that only pulling really stupid stunts will get you killed. Hence the term, YASD ;)
QFT
This is the example of a good game design in roguelikes - that when you die, you feel it's your fault, not a random event you have no control over.
At most, only make recently spawned characters be able to die randomly, so when you are like 2/3 hours into the game if you die it's because you were stupid enough to do a mistake. In the early game it's not that big of a deal if the character generation is quick enough, you just restart and get on with it. Even then, avoiding too many random deaths shoul be a design aim. It's no fun to have to go through the character creation 20 times to get a chance on really playing the game.
So yeah, go permadeath!
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Maaaan, people you made a mess in this topic xD. Anyone care to post a summary of things agreed upon? o.O
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Maaaan, people you made a mess in this topic xD. Anyone care to post a summary of things agreed upon? o.O
We agree that we disagree \o/
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Yeah, that's pretty much it...
Here it is, AFAIR:
The game-build split was between Normal-Nightmare-Hell streamers and Normal-Nightmare-Hell repeaters.
In most cases we agreed permadeath's a must-have and that once a character progresses past one difficulty level, that same char cannot go back (so going into Nightmare prohibits access to Normal; whether Normal was played once or a thousand times' another matter).
There was some agreement on putting a so-called "everlaster" mode for player enjoyment, though in no way should the game be balanced for it. As a roguelike, the game should be built around permadeath.
If this meant the game will be built around a streamed game with a repeating game for fun, or if the normal mode will be streamed/repeated with an immortal mode for fun, I'm not sure. I don't think having a streamed game with an immortal mode for fun was discussed, but I'm not sure.
Some of us wanted high focus on item drop and quality, and some of us wanted high focus on char development. The rest must've wanted a balance of the two, but I can't remember that being said officially.
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ok well first i see posibilities in this game
1 adom was created in like a couple of hours
2 diablo has long been my favorite franchise
and 3 i can see nothing wrong with progress
in the same that you grow with the game, shouldnt diablo denizens grow with you
just a thought, but one thats never been implemented or given much thought, especially in roguelikes
so here is the concept
your a young man sent to his fathers grave in search of some sort of answer about the reason he died
youve been suspecting that in the town of tristram there lies a dark cult
so you investigate
and find out that your dad isnt dead but rather undead, and so are you but only after calling upon the dark hero, do you realize something is really wrong
its diablo from the oppisite end of the spectrum
just a thought
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1 adom was created in like a couple of hours
What? I thought it had been made in 7 days...
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1 adom was created in like a couple of hours
What? I thought it had been made in 7 days...
Bwa-ha-ha, that phrase made my day.