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916
Discussion / Manual aim
« on: April 05, 2010, 22:00 »
So I'm playing a game (what else would I possibly be doing) and, as usual, the bullet pathing can sometimes be a little screwy when it comes to walls. The example that happened just now:
The original scenario (1) has the player peering down a hallway with an imp on the other side in another doorway: naturally you'd want to just aim for the imp and fire. however, if I do that, I get an impossible pathing (2) that will simply shoot into the wall if I try to do it. If I instead aim in a manner that's short of the target (3) but will continue on according to the "slope" of the bullet, I hit the imp just fine.
Another case I can think of involves single-tile walls:
The original case (1) has the player hiding from a baron (the baron is also hidden from sight but the player knows it's there). Firing within the normal sight range of three tiles past the wall (2), the aiming is perfectly fine. Go farther than that (3) and the aim tries to shoot INTO THE WALL. I'll be honest, I have died on a couple of occasions at The Wall because of this problem (and trying this shot with a rocket launcher). Unfortunately, unlike the first example, you can't simply aim short, as the target isn't close enough to shoot here.
While this is an annoying problem, I could see of it as a way of becoming yet another aspect of the game: limited aim. This could be done in two ways of varying scope:
1) Quite literally decrease the range of firing. The shot will continue on until it hits something, but you can only fire as accurately as your to-hit chance. Everything within the to-hit chance has a maximum chance of hitting (98% currently, could be more or less as balancing requires), whereas everything else not only scales down in accuracy, but is impossible to "aim" at. Eagle Eye suddenly becomes a lot more useful, as the +2 to-hit increases your aiming by two. For shotguns I would suggest enforced limits based on the spread of the weapon (as an example: two for the normal shotgun, three/four for the combat, one for the double).
This first option has a few implications, such as enemies having the same problem...their own to-hit chances will correspond to firing ranges. Another consideration is that, outside of your aim there is a distribution of where the bullet will land, a cone of possibilities; the surest path is the most likely, but straying from the path is possible (and will have to be, if you ever want to hit anything with an unmodded rapid-fire) and should be taken into consideration when firing. In such a setup, the best chance of shooting an enemy is in the eight standard directions, whereas other regions are blurred. Considering this game is completely square in its format, I don't think this is asking for too much sacrifice in terms of realism. Naturally you'll be able to shoot better along a wall with an inaccurate weapon (something to line up your shot against) as opposed to out in the open. Another consideration, obviously, is what to reset all the to-hit chances to. Two is a bit low, three makes more sense for chainfire...double pistols should probably have less to-hit than a single: furthermore, aiming would become an extremely beneficial attribute to the weapon.
2) Make shots outside of your visibility impossible. This doesn't mean you can't shoot things outside of your range, but wall-shots, for instance, would basically be impossible. They should be, to be honest: trying to shoot down a hallway you're standing in either means your weapon is still in the hallway (and is therefore capable of being shot at) or you're shooting at an angle, which can only go so far. If, on the other hand, you want to shoot at a ridiculous angle like that, there should be a tactic (probably not in the same bunch as Cautious/Running/Tired, but you should know what I mean) that sacrifices movement for an increased vision along the walls...something along the lines of Prone or Mounted. Of course, you'll have full vision against the wall, but it takes a couple seconds to get into position and a couple seconds to get out, so it's entirely meant for when you're sure you only have to worry about the heavy angles.
Of course, the original setup is fine the way it is. I'm just throwing some ideas out there (which is why this is neither in Bug Reports in spite of the buggy aiming, nor Requests for Features as it's more of something to think about than direct add to the game) that would make this game stand apart from other roguelikes. Certainly either of these options would change a ton in terms of strategy, for better or harder. In any case, I'm interested in other peoples' thoughts on the current aiming system and what could be changed to improve the system.
EDIT: Fixed up some issues with the graphics.
(1)i.# (2)X.# (3)i.#
#.# #X# #.#
#.# #.X #X#
#.# #.X #X#
#.@ #.@ #.@The original scenario (1) has the player peering down a hallway with an imp on the other side in another doorway: naturally you'd want to just aim for the imp and fire. however, if I do that, I get an impossible pathing (2) that will simply shoot into the wall if I try to do it. If I instead aim in a manner that's short of the target (3) but will continue on according to the "slope" of the bullet, I hit the imp just fine.
Another case I can think of involves single-tile walls:
(1).......B
@#......
........
(2).XXX...B
@#......
........
(3)....XXXX
@XXX....
........The original case (1) has the player hiding from a baron (the baron is also hidden from sight but the player knows it's there). Firing within the normal sight range of three tiles past the wall (2), the aiming is perfectly fine. Go farther than that (3) and the aim tries to shoot INTO THE WALL. I'll be honest, I have died on a couple of occasions at The Wall because of this problem (and trying this shot with a rocket launcher). Unfortunately, unlike the first example, you can't simply aim short, as the target isn't close enough to shoot here.
While this is an annoying problem, I could see of it as a way of becoming yet another aspect of the game: limited aim. This could be done in two ways of varying scope:
1) Quite literally decrease the range of firing. The shot will continue on until it hits something, but you can only fire as accurately as your to-hit chance. Everything within the to-hit chance has a maximum chance of hitting (98% currently, could be more or less as balancing requires), whereas everything else not only scales down in accuracy, but is impossible to "aim" at. Eagle Eye suddenly becomes a lot more useful, as the +2 to-hit increases your aiming by two. For shotguns I would suggest enforced limits based on the spread of the weapon (as an example: two for the normal shotgun, three/four for the combat, one for the double).
This first option has a few implications, such as enemies having the same problem...their own to-hit chances will correspond to firing ranges. Another consideration is that, outside of your aim there is a distribution of where the bullet will land, a cone of possibilities; the surest path is the most likely, but straying from the path is possible (and will have to be, if you ever want to hit anything with an unmodded rapid-fire) and should be taken into consideration when firing. In such a setup, the best chance of shooting an enemy is in the eight standard directions, whereas other regions are blurred. Considering this game is completely square in its format, I don't think this is asking for too much sacrifice in terms of realism. Naturally you'll be able to shoot better along a wall with an inaccurate weapon (something to line up your shot against) as opposed to out in the open. Another consideration, obviously, is what to reset all the to-hit chances to. Two is a bit low, three makes more sense for chainfire...double pistols should probably have less to-hit than a single: furthermore, aiming would become an extremely beneficial attribute to the weapon.
2) Make shots outside of your visibility impossible. This doesn't mean you can't shoot things outside of your range, but wall-shots, for instance, would basically be impossible. They should be, to be honest: trying to shoot down a hallway you're standing in either means your weapon is still in the hallway (and is therefore capable of being shot at) or you're shooting at an angle, which can only go so far. If, on the other hand, you want to shoot at a ridiculous angle like that, there should be a tactic (probably not in the same bunch as Cautious/Running/Tired, but you should know what I mean) that sacrifices movement for an increased vision along the walls...something along the lines of Prone or Mounted. Of course, you'll have full vision against the wall, but it takes a couple seconds to get into position and a couple seconds to get out, so it's entirely meant for when you're sure you only have to worry about the heavy angles.
Of course, the original setup is fine the way it is. I'm just throwing some ideas out there (which is why this is neither in Bug Reports in spite of the buggy aiming, nor Requests for Features as it's more of something to think about than direct add to the game) that would make this game stand apart from other roguelikes. Certainly either of these options would change a ton in terms of strategy, for better or harder. In any case, I'm interested in other peoples' thoughts on the current aiming system and what could be changed to improve the system.
EDIT: Fixed up some issues with the graphics.
917
Bug Reports / Re: Walking over lava?!
« on: April 05, 2010, 21:16 »
Erm...I don't mean to judge, but the mortem can be put in the mortem tags (look for the button with the DoomRL logo) and pasted directly into the post. No need to .rar it.
I've heard of other people mentioning that planeshift boots can produce the hovering quality that should occur work when both pieces are on, which continued to persist without the boots. If there's anything else you can mention (what other equipment you happened to be wearing, any mods, were you knocked into the lava at any point) that wouldn't be listed in the mortem, I'd do that as well.
As a counterargument, I managed to find planeshift boots in a standard HMP run today but still took normal floor damage while walking across lava: I just hope it's not at random.
I've heard of other people mentioning that planeshift boots can produce the hovering quality that should occur work when both pieces are on, which continued to persist without the boots. If there's anything else you can mention (what other equipment you happened to be wearing, any mods, were you knocked into the lava at any point) that wouldn't be listed in the mortem, I'd do that as well.
As a counterargument, I managed to find planeshift boots in a standard HMP run today but still took normal floor damage while walking across lava: I just hope it's not at random.
918
Discussion / Re: what music do you use?
« on: April 05, 2010, 16:34 »
Currently I've tried the music I found from http://www.doom2.net/~doomdepot/music.html: scroll all the way down to the music titled "Ultimate Doom and Doom2 MP2s (from Doomworld)". Even compared to the .mp3s from the other website, I prefer the ones here...very crisp instruments.
Alternatively, there's an awesome OC album called Dark Side of Phobos, found at http://doom.ocremix.org/main.html. Swapping out some of these, especially for doubled songs, would likely be a nice change.
This is my current setup. A lot of the special levels contain Doom2 music at my own personal discretion...some of them fit really well. For instance, any of you who remember Map07, Dead Simple (with the mancubi and arachnotrons) will know that it fits perfectly in Spider's Lair. (Or, for hardcore Doom1 users, E3M8 - Dis also works well.) Map28, The Spirit World (that huge one with the Spiderdemon in the blood room) is great for The Mortuary, and Map20, Gotcha!, is an amusing reference in City of Skulls.
EDIT: The specials were originally all wrong: this is what I've ascertained in playing a little bit on a Pacifism run:
chained court, halls of carnage, hell's armory(?), hell's arena, lava pits(?), city of skulls, the wall, unholy cathedral, the mortuary(?), the vaults, spider's lair(?).
(? means I'm not sure yet, just filling in the gaps.)
Alternatively, there's an awesome OC album called Dark Side of Phobos, found at http://doom.ocremix.org/main.html. Swapping out some of these, especially for doubled songs, would likely be a nice change.
This is my current setup. A lot of the special levels contain Doom2 music at my own personal discretion...some of them fit really well. For instance, any of you who remember Map07, Dead Simple (with the mancubi and arachnotrons) will know that it fits perfectly in Spider's Lair. (Or, for hardcore Doom1 users, E3M8 - Dis also works well.) Map28, The Spirit World (that huge one with the Spiderdemon in the blood room) is great for The Mortuary, and Map20, Gotcha!, is an amusing reference in City of Skulls.
Code: [Select]
[Music]
//In order to get the files from Doomworld to work
//properly, they have to be changed from .mp2 to
//.mp3 (rename it; no effect on quality).
start = "music/other/title.mp3";
interlude = "music/other/interlude-e2m3.mp3";
bunny = "music/other/bunny.mp3";
intro = "music/other/e1m1.mp3";
hellgate = "music/other/e1m8.mp3";
level2 = "music/other/e1m2.mp3";
level3 = "music/other/e1m3.mp3";
level4 = "music/other/e1m7.mp3";
level5 = "music/other/e1m5.mp3";
level6 = "music/other/e1m6.mp3";
level7 = "music/other/e1m4.mp3";
level8 = "music/other/e1m7.mp3";
level9 = "music/other/e1m3.mp3";
level10 = "music/other/e1m2.mp3";
level11 = "music/other/e1m6.mp3";
level12 = "music/other/e1m4.mp3";
level13 = "music/other/e1m7.mp3";
level14 = "music/other/e2m1.mp3";
level16 = "music/other/e2m2.mp3";
level17 = "music/other/e2m6.mp3";
level18 = "music/other/e3m3.mp3";
level19 = "music/other/e2m4.mp3";
level20 = "music/other/e3m1.mp3";
level21 = "music/other/e2m7.mp3";
level22 = "music/other/e2m1.mp3";
level23 = "music/other/e3m3.mp3";
level24 = "music/other/e2m2.mp3";
//chained court
spec1 = "music/other/e1m9.mp3";
//halls of carnage
spec2 = "music/other/map09.mp3";
//hell's armory
spec3 = "music/other/map02.mp3";
//hell's arena
spec4 = "music/other/e3m2.mp3";
lava pits
spec5 = "music/other/map23.mp3";
//city of skulls
spec6 = "music/other/map20.mp3";
//the wall
spec7 = "music/other/map25.mp3";
//unholy cathedral
spec8 = "music/other/map32.mp3";
//the mortuary
spec9 = "music/other/map28.mp3";
//the vaults
spec10 = "music/other/map18.mp3";
//spider's lair
spec11 = "music/other/map07.mp3";
boss = "music/other/e2m8.mp3";
boss2 = "music/other/map30.mp3";
victory = "music/other/victory.mp3";
//No music plays here (level15 is now hellgate)
level15 = "music/other/e1m1.mp3";
I changed the filenames of the music to make them more concise here. One day I'll take the time to get rid of the pauses at the beginning so it meshes better with the game.EDIT: The specials were originally all wrong: this is what I've ascertained in playing a little bit on a Pacifism run:
chained court, halls of carnage, hell's armory(?), hell's arena, lava pits(?), city of skulls, the wall, unholy cathedral, the mortuary(?), the vaults, spider's lair(?).
(? means I'm not sure yet, just filling in the gaps.)
919
Discussion / Re: Badges, badges, badges!
« on: April 05, 2010, 14:25 »
I'm not saying that it should be hard...if you have the items necessary to do it. The exact same is true of AoP, after all: it can be really, really easy if you get a few lucky stairs early on and some homings. The problem comes from getting that luck in the first place...unlike just about every other silver medal, Brick Silver requires only a paltry amount of skill and a rather unproportionally large amount of luck.
- AoMr: Early uniques have vanishingly small chances and tend to be Cleaver more often than not (keep in mind only one of the three pistols will do it as is...early blaster is more likely but not by much, and Trigun will require invuln at JUST the right time).
- AoB: A guaranteed homing, sure, but it requires you to beat Hell's Arena (which requires some luck in the timing of enemy attacks, your knife properly two-hitting demons, and a sufficient number of health packs and armor to survive the guaranteed damage). Then you still require an average of two phase devices to properly make it to the other side of The Wall. I once had three phases and not one of them passed me to the other side of The Wall, even though the odds should be about 50%.
The Silver could be from the fact that all this luck has to occur relatively early, allowing you to restart prematurely and work the RNG faster until you get the desired results. AoB is more likely to give you better odds, having most of the luck occur before and during HA, but it's not much of a comfort knowing you still need a couple of phases and a decent teleport (ie, not die the second you make it to the other side) for a successful run. All in all it's a badge that isn't very fun to go for, just one that you'll "happen to get" eventually. The same can be said of just about every Diamond badge, but at least they're MEANT to be like that.
Lava Silver sure is annoying, though...I really don't feel like doing another AoMs run on HNTR, and there's almost no chance of me doing it on harder difficulties short of a nuke (if that even works).
- AoMr: Early uniques have vanishingly small chances and tend to be Cleaver more often than not (keep in mind only one of the three pistols will do it as is...early blaster is more likely but not by much, and Trigun will require invuln at JUST the right time).
- AoB: A guaranteed homing, sure, but it requires you to beat Hell's Arena (which requires some luck in the timing of enemy attacks, your knife properly two-hitting demons, and a sufficient number of health packs and armor to survive the guaranteed damage). Then you still require an average of two phase devices to properly make it to the other side of The Wall. I once had three phases and not one of them passed me to the other side of The Wall, even though the odds should be about 50%.
The Silver could be from the fact that all this luck has to occur relatively early, allowing you to restart prematurely and work the RNG faster until you get the desired results. AoB is more likely to give you better odds, having most of the luck occur before and during HA, but it's not much of a comfort knowing you still need a couple of phases and a decent teleport (ie, not die the second you make it to the other side) for a successful run. All in all it's a badge that isn't very fun to go for, just one that you'll "happen to get" eventually. The same can be said of just about every Diamond badge, but at least they're MEANT to be like that.
Lava Silver sure is annoying, though...I really don't feel like doing another AoMs run on HNTR, and there's almost no chance of me doing it on harder difficulties short of a nuke (if that even works).
920
Requests For Features / Re: Backpack as an Exotic Powerup
« on: April 04, 2010, 19:00 »
AoMr and AoSg (and AoB, to be technical) all carry the possibility to get the Backpack, although that's already requiring some massive luck (whether it be blaster/jackal, or plasma shotgun(?), or just an appropriate amount of phases) by the time the Wall shows up, which can be as early as floor 7. If we consider the odds of finding a Megasphere in a game that isn't A100, I don't think it would ever be a problem that players would find it too easily. We could create an exception that they can only appear in vaults (which are nasty little rooms, not to mention no explosions) to create a sufficient challenge on the rare occasion they appear.
The only one that doesn't allow for a Backpack is A100 which, in my opinion, really biases the player to wanting Ammochain in order to eliminate ammo conservation problems. I just finished an A100 game without MAc and only got through a couple of tight spots because I was lucky enough to have BOTH the nuclear plasma and nuclear BFG. Cells are already a problem, taking up double the space of bullets, and bullets are used up FAST after a few floors. Rockets become a staple but prevent you from collecting most ammo (same is true of BFG) so you can end up in some nasty, ammoless situations, especially on harder difficulties (except N!...but that's a bit of an exception). The chance of finding a Backpack early enough would be a nice relief: 40% increased capacity is significant, lemme tell ya. Should it end up later...well, it's still plenty possible, I managed without the nuclear gear until the 90s.
(Just as a side-note, I managed the run using neither MAc nor Intuition. It was HNTR and I was bored, what can I say.)
The only one that doesn't allow for a Backpack is A100 which, in my opinion, really biases the player to wanting Ammochain in order to eliminate ammo conservation problems. I just finished an A100 game without MAc and only got through a couple of tight spots because I was lucky enough to have BOTH the nuclear plasma and nuclear BFG. Cells are already a problem, taking up double the space of bullets, and bullets are used up FAST after a few floors. Rockets become a staple but prevent you from collecting most ammo (same is true of BFG) so you can end up in some nasty, ammoless situations, especially on harder difficulties (except N!...but that's a bit of an exception). The chance of finding a Backpack early enough would be a nice relief: 40% increased capacity is significant, lemme tell ya. Should it end up later...well, it's still plenty possible, I managed without the nuclear gear until the 90s.
(Just as a side-note, I managed the run using neither MAc nor Intuition. It was HNTR and I was bored, what can I say.)
921
Requests For Features / Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« on: April 02, 2010, 21:40 »Another idea for a trait: "Aimed" shots ignore armor and always deal maximum damage.Been thinking about this one for a while. It fits quite well into my idea (could replace my percentage-based shot, for instance), but there's a small problem because aimed shots take twice as long as a normal shot and Finesse is somewhat opposed. The double time really does hurt this kind of benefit: note that "maximum damage" is a spread difference of about six damage (so on average you're improving damage by three) and armor will never add more than four. If you REALLY need to conserve ammo for some reason, it'd come in handy. However, we could put a little spin on it instead:
Sharpshooter ((or Sniper, whichever fits better)
Requires: Son of a Gun (2), Reloader (1), Intuition (1)
Blocks: Finesse, Hellrunner, Ironman (Iro's a maybe: it's either that or TaN. Depends on whether or not Iro is even allowed to be a blocked trait.)
Quote: "Waste a shot on the battlefield and you're as good as dead."
Benefits: Aimed shots instead pierce armor and deal maximum damage to their target, at 1.75x the firing speed. Sight around corners* is increased by two.
*see first post on corner-sight
A bit of tweaking here and there and I could see it working. Removing Finesse balances with slightly less aimed speed; the defense traits are balanced with the definitive advantage at spotting enemies; Reloader effectively blocks Cateye and is plenty useful on pistols anyway. This build wouldn't work with other weapons, of course, as the other one did.
I'd still use it, it's basically the exact opposite of Gun Kata anyway. Instead of guns blazing across the battlefield, it's made for those who approach pistols with a highly conservative, kill-before-seen strategy in mind. Arach caves are a huge problem, naturally...unless you find yourself a really nice and fairly common crevice: corner-shooting will kill them before they have any line of sight. Really, any sort of blocking will do just the trick, as you'll easily get some shots off before they can see you, and if you're using those aimed shots, SoaG(x3)+SoaB(x1) is exactly enough to knockback, which is reachable by level eight.
Oh, and my HNTR single-pistol game went without a hitch or special gun. Cybie took a while but died without much a problem. I gotta say though, a P3T2+SoaB(x3)+SoaG(x3), giving 2d7+6 = 8-20 = 14 damage on average is a great way to keep enemies at bay via knockback: two guns would be nearly impossible to both mod in this fashion. I wouldn't expect HMP would be too much harder (you'll still only be using one gun by the time HA finishes up)...UV would have significant problems. However, if we're talking about the original MFW, everything before UV would be a walk in the park and UV itself would pose only small challenges.
922
Discussion / Re: New Fireangel reqs, better or worse?
« on: April 02, 2010, 18:50 »
Generally, which shotgun build you use depends on how much you're willing to depend on your shotties. MAD is super-conservative in that respect: armor-piercing rounds turn scouting into a way to kill things, and double shotty WILL kill an up-close spider or rev in one shot, with few exceptions (super shotgun turns that into no exception). MFa, on the other hand, is a matter of being able to use the double shotgun whenever the hell you feel like it, which allows you to conserve shells more often, thus lowering your need for shell space, thus giving you room for other guns. If it's AoSg, I would always recommend MAD over MFa, especially if you want to reach Shotty Diamond.
As per your other comments:
With that in mind, MFa is useful when dodging the occasional projectile you'll allow to fly, and the already-maximized damage you're dealing with shotties doesn't make me worry all that much about armor. It'll take some more shells than MAD, but (and again, you can get TaN at any point) avoiding splash damage can be absolutely critical.
Depends, is avoiding splash damage that useful? Yes. Yes it is. However, it doesn't really matter for the Diamond run when you aren't allowed HR, which has now been made harder by the fact that MFa requires HR. If it doesn't matter, then I would probably like MFa if only because splash damage is a lot of the endgame damage for a person who can't attack anything.
EDIT:
If you refer to the trait that Shottyman GIVES...well, perhaps it's not as useful as some of the other adv traits (Badass's 200% perm, Intuition's monster vision, Whizkid's super-modding), but it's remarkably useful if your timing's right: fire, sidestep, and repeat, never worrying to reload. Combined with HR (ala MFa) it makes reloading REALLY fast and almost impossible for you to get hurt. Timing of the enemies, however, is critical and may or may not require Finesse to be optimized. Don't expect to pull this off against Arach caves, for instance.
If you, however, refer to the fact that you need two Reloaders to get Shottyman, making either one or the other kinda useless...yeah, I tend to agree. At least Reloader can still useful on a non-shotty build such as a non-MGK pistol game or a non-MAc damage run (things like Railgun and rocket launcher really benefit).
As per your other comments:
Quote from: action52
Angel of Light Travel:Some challenge are really better off with neither build, and AoLT is probably the most Ammochain-reliant challenge I have ever seen. If you really had to play AoLT without Ammochain, I'd STILL probably choose super-modding a chaingun because it carries the most ammo.
Due to inventory being scarce, Fireangel is a lot better since you can get by with less ammo.
Quote from: action52
Angel of Purity:On the contrary, Purity makes Badass practically useless because you'll never go past 100%! However, MFa still allows for TaN, so you can try TaN->TaN->HR->HR->Rel->Rel->SM->DM->MFa, or something along those lines.
In all of these, health is at a premium, so you'll want TaN and Badass.
Quote from: action52
Angel of Max Carnage:To answer your question: no, to my knowledge, DM still does exactly what it does, even in a game where to-hit bonuses are maximized. Remember, DM AUTOMATICALLY dodges all attacks on the first sidestep. I should point out, though, that enemies can still miss you during AoMC when it comes to dodging an attack, so never forget to run in a pinch.
Doesn't this challenge make Dodgemaster useless? In any case, you will need to focus on killing demons before they kill you, rather than escape. This makes Army of the Dead an obvious choice if we're only talking shotgun master traits--although Ammochain is probably even better.
With that in mind, MFa is useful when dodging the occasional projectile you'll allow to fly, and the already-maximized damage you're dealing with shotties doesn't make me worry all that much about armor. It'll take some more shells than MAD, but (and again, you can get TaN at any point) avoiding splash damage can be absolutely critical.
Quote from: action52
Angel of Pacifism:
Army of the Dead is useless, obviously. Fireangel is useful, but is it really worth pouring three experience levels into useless traits? You're probably better off just going for Dodgemaster and Badass, using your extra levels to build Hellrunner, TaN, and Ironman.
Depends, is avoiding splash damage that useful? Yes. Yes it is. However, it doesn't really matter for the Diamond run when you aren't allowed HR, which has now been made harder by the fact that MFa requires HR. If it doesn't matter, then I would probably like MFa if only because splash damage is a lot of the endgame damage for a person who can't attack anything.
EDIT:
Quote from: Polymeron
On another petty note, I don't even like to take Shottyman when I'm playing AoSh, much less any other time.I'm curious is to what you'd get if not Shottyman for a shotty run. SoaB is remarkably insignificant damage for any shotgun (double included) and Finesse, should you be correctly using the combat shotty, is only useful once the double comes into play...which it doesn't until barons, taking you to around clvl 5 or 6. The rest are either defensive or useless for shotguns.
If you refer to the trait that Shottyman GIVES...well, perhaps it's not as useful as some of the other adv traits (Badass's 200% perm, Intuition's monster vision, Whizkid's super-modding), but it's remarkably useful if your timing's right: fire, sidestep, and repeat, never worrying to reload. Combined with HR (ala MFa) it makes reloading REALLY fast and almost impossible for you to get hurt. Timing of the enemies, however, is critical and may or may not require Finesse to be optimized. Don't expect to pull this off against Arach caves, for instance.
If you, however, refer to the fact that you need two Reloaders to get Shottyman, making either one or the other kinda useless...yeah, I tend to agree. At least Reloader can still useful on a non-shotty build such as a non-MGK pistol game or a non-MAc damage run (things like Railgun and rocket launcher really benefit).
923
0.9.9.1 / Re: [M|AoB|100%|YAAM]
« on: April 02, 2010, 18:07 »
Maybe it's just something to test out, but I notice that all the berserk-armor problems come from people using the MVm trait. Anyone wanna try out MBm? Could be that somehow the health gain and zerk armor and being damaged (maybe) all on the same turn screw things up.
But congrats on pulling it off with buggy zerk armor, must've been a hell of a time killing AoD like that. Or do you mean that your Berserker barely ever happened?
But congrats on pulling it off with buggy zerk armor, must've been a hell of a time killing AoD like that. Or do you mean that your Berserker barely ever happened?
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Requests For Features / Re: Request: Abandon Challenge
« on: April 01, 2010, 01:27 »
Heh, and then when you learn that, if you just play non-weapon-specific challenges and get a weapon that doesn't fit your build, you'll want a "trait reset" button that allows you to pick them over again, yeah? I wouldn't mind that, but I think it would also be strictly for a wizard-mode game (that is, you accept that you will gain no medals or badges when you start, and that it will not count in the high scores list).
I see Grey's point: when you play a challenge you are accepting all of the conditions of the challenge, in spite of whatever the RNG may cook up for you. Sometimes you'll get uniques that still fit within both your personal build and the game's conditions, sometimes you won't. It's just as well to play the game without challenge modes: I'm fairly certain you can unlock everything without ever having to pick up an Angel. When you play enough times and get to try everything out, those modes will still be waiting. Ultimately this is a feature that could be better put to use in sandbox mode, allowing one to put together uniques for testing.
Though I AM pissed that someone I know got both Cleaver and Dragonslayer (not to mention his wielding it) in a single AoB run. I may have gotten Pancor during a shotty build, but it'd be different if it were AoSg.
I see Grey's point: when you play a challenge you are accepting all of the conditions of the challenge, in spite of whatever the RNG may cook up for you. Sometimes you'll get uniques that still fit within both your personal build and the game's conditions, sometimes you won't. It's just as well to play the game without challenge modes: I'm fairly certain you can unlock everything without ever having to pick up an Angel. When you play enough times and get to try everything out, those modes will still be waiting. Ultimately this is a feature that could be better put to use in sandbox mode, allowing one to put together uniques for testing.
Though I AM pissed that someone I know got both Cleaver and Dragonslayer (not to mention his wielding it) in a single AoB run. I may have gotten Pancor during a shotty build, but it'd be different if it were AoSg.
925
Requests For Features / Re: Improved trait display screen; better support for soundless players
« on: March 31, 2010, 17:04 »
Why play soundless, anyway? I might turn off music sometimes because I feel like having something else play (and am too lazy to add in my own) but sound is absolutely vital, whether it's monster noises or sergeants reloading or damage from blind-shooting.
Although there is a way to notice not only if enemies are there, but where exactly, without sound, so long as you've seen that area of the map before (prominent in places like Hell's Arena and Spider's Lair or arena/cave maps or, best-case, getting a Computer Map). If you hit 'em, there's a darn good chance it'll bloody up their tile, which appears even if you don't have vision of that tile.
If this IS put into play, make it something toggleable. For players without sound it may be useful, but for those of us who do it'll just be another thing to potentially hit enter for, slogging down the game.
Although there is a way to notice not only if enemies are there, but where exactly, without sound, so long as you've seen that area of the map before (prominent in places like Hell's Arena and Spider's Lair or arena/cave maps or, best-case, getting a Computer Map). If you hit 'em, there's a darn good chance it'll bloody up their tile, which appears even if you don't have vision of that tile.
If this IS put into play, make it something toggleable. For players without sound it may be useful, but for those of us who do it'll just be another thing to potentially hit enter for, slogging down the game.
926
0.9.9.1 / Re: [UV|99%|16|YASD] I challenged AoD for a lava swim...
« on: March 31, 2010, 15:10 »
I really think trait zerk is buggy: My AoB a while back (0.9.9.1) went without a hitch against AoD, barely took any damage from the guy. He must have hit me at least seven or eight times, too.
In any case, best of luck to you on UV Conqueror, looks like you were doing really well up to that point, what with the three phases and a homing.
In any case, best of luck to you on UV Conqueror, looks like you were doing really well up to that point, what with the three phases and a homing.
927
Requests For Features / Re: Request: Abandon Challenge
« on: March 31, 2010, 15:02 »Quote from: Moniker
One of the biggest grievances in .990 was the inflexibility with builds vs. unique finds. Exotics were created in the spirit of adapting the RNG to player builds. This would approach the problem from another angle by allowing the player to adapt himself to the RNG.If Kornel really wanted to adapt the RNG to player builds, he would force all exotic/unique weapons to be pistols for AoMr and shotguns for AoSg. Also, I believe exotics were created more because uniques were so rare to find, not to mention that some uniques were far more powerful than others; having another class of equipment eased the system for those lesser uniques and allowed them to appear more often.
Quote from: Moniker
Challenges are not so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of uniques. They're so-called because they force you to give up certain classes of weapons, making you explore new tactical avenues with the challenge-specific type. Nearly every roguelike has a wizmode where your scores don't count, but that doesn't prevent it from being a legitimately challenging game. This isn't anywhere near as radical a suggestion as that.I'm fairly certain only three out of the ten challenges limit you by weapon. (I'd count Pacifism but it's not like you're even looking for items in those games.) As for the rest, a lot of exotic and unique weapons ARE typically resistricted by build: already I've encountered five Cleavers, none of which I was even remotely considering to use because melee weapons are practically exclusive to AoB (and, to some degree, AoMC). On easier difficulties it would take far too long to adapt to it, and on harder difficulties you're set from the get-go lest you be unprepared. You go into the game with a build in mind, and if you're LUCKY, you get either a special weapon that fits the build or a weapon that doesn't require a build to be useful.
Exotics tend to be equipment that are useful in their own situations, regardless of the traits you picked (blaster conserves ammo, assault shotgun has insane reload, laser rifle almost always hits, BFG is...uh...BFG). A lot of uniques tend to be more specialized (three pistols that would still suck w/o SoaG, Jackhammer needs a boatload of shells) that, even if you were going to abandon the challenge, you'd be hard-pressed to find them worthwhile anyway, especially when it comes to ammo types.
Now I'm not against putting this in, I just can't say I would find myself using it. I kinda wish Cleaver could be an exception, though, with more of a chance to drop on AoB and less to drop anywhere else. One time I found it in early in an A100 run and suicided right there.
928
Discussion / Re: Badges, badges, badges!
« on: March 31, 2010, 00:38 »
Did a quick AoMr run on HNTR (mostly to test a single pistol run...not easy but not that hard, either) and got something like four phases and a homing by level 10. Guess what? Wall didn't generate! Now I think the RNG's just screwing with me.
Any suggestions for a Purity run? I noticed that I haven't even touched it yet, but I'd say MAc or MCe is the best option there. Badass is wasted, Ironman is only half as effecive...I suppose MFa is also up in the air.
Oh, and I'm curious as to how many people have completed the standard UV game as Conqueror. Now THAT sounds like a hardcore challenge, as it essentially forces some amount of melee build into your game and yet you also have to be capable enough to handle Mortuary, not to mention either lucky enough to avoid generating Vaults (I pretty much see it all the time) or have a nuke/invuln or lotsa phases. If there's one run that requires one hell of a divine RNG, it's probably that one.
Question (for anyone and everyone): what challenges do you consider harder on UV than on N!? My first thought is AoPc, if only because fast monsters don't affect you that much when you don't fight, and doubled durations/healing are that much more useful. Perhaps AoB? It's not like you ever stay around long in that one, either, and the doubled Berserks in the Court are a godsend, I'm sure.
Any suggestions for a Purity run? I noticed that I haven't even touched it yet, but I'd say MAc or MCe is the best option there. Badass is wasted, Ironman is only half as effecive...I suppose MFa is also up in the air.
Oh, and I'm curious as to how many people have completed the standard UV game as Conqueror. Now THAT sounds like a hardcore challenge, as it essentially forces some amount of melee build into your game and yet you also have to be capable enough to handle Mortuary, not to mention either lucky enough to avoid generating Vaults (I pretty much see it all the time) or have a nuke/invuln or lotsa phases. If there's one run that requires one hell of a divine RNG, it's probably that one.
Question (for anyone and everyone): what challenges do you consider harder on UV than on N!? My first thought is AoPc, if only because fast monsters don't affect you that much when you don't fight, and doubled durations/healing are that much more useful. Perhaps AoB? It's not like you ever stay around long in that one, either, and the doubled Berserks in the Court are a godsend, I'm sure.
929
Requests For Features / Re: Second Pistol Master Trait
« on: March 30, 2010, 19:51 »Also, I don't think the first iteration of the Fastest of the West Master Trait is that overpowered, since it would require an Angel of Marksmenship player to hold out for SEVEN characters levels using only a basic pistol, when it's typical to make a bee-line straight for dualgunner so that you can start dealing more damage to things.Well, I still have Brick Silver to finish. I'll take you up on that challenge, see how difficult it is to handle the game on a single pistol (just finished a ITYTD single pistol run, really easy (although T3 and ITYTD helps that)). Part of the usefulness of a single pistol is heavy ammo conservation, after all: 2d4+6 at 0.28 speed isn't too shabby, much better than a chaingun and more accurate, too.
Quote from: ChaoticJosh
Also, juggler would have to be altered so that you could switch between them via a menu even if it did work like that.Oh, right. It's been so long since I've actually used Juggler, seems I've forgotten how it works.
930
Discussion / Badges, badges, badges!
« on: March 30, 2010, 14:13 »
Feel free to talk about how much you hate, or have tried to get, or find entirely impossible, whatever badge(s) you're working on.
For me, I look at badges like "Complete Angel of Masochism" for Gold and think, that's fair, and then badges like "Clear Lava Pits on AoMs" which should not be all that much easier, if not harder (you'll need a lot of envirosuits to stay safe) but see it placed as Silver. If you're thinking, well I can just nuke Lava Pits, then yes, you could. You can also nuke Cybie when you get to him...in another TWO FLOORS, which is by no means grueling. If Lava Pits weren't so far down I wouldn't mind, but it should probably be placed at the same difficulty level as completing AoMs. Especially when I read on the Wiki that it's supposedly buggy and that you aren't supposed to be able to use envirosuits in AoMs.
Another pain is Brick Silver. Again, maybe it's just me, but the luck required to not only reach the other side of the Wall, but somewhere that isn't going to insta-kill you, AND enough to make it out alive (so at the very least, one phase and one homing, the latter of which is really unlikely that early), feels like it's on the same luck magnitude as, say, Angel of Pacifism. This is not even mentioning that you need to kill (at the very least) eight HKs and six Barons, in a large room, with nothing but pistols and chainsaws. I'll be honest, I haven't really tried for this badge all that much, but I don't feel like wasting time on a Silver that requires the RNG of a Gold+. Jackal is another possibility, but again: Gold+ RNG I'm not wasting time on, and I SURE as hell am not doing Wall on AoMr N!, Jackal or no.
Shotty Platinum has been avoiding my grasp for some time now, but lately it's felt like one of the easier N! challenges. You have a better shot at Hell's Arena than most builds, you're basically done building offensive traits at level 7, and you are provided with a nice range of weapons. Only downside is possible lack of shells, but at least they aren't used up as quickly as...just about every other ammo type.
Does anyone else feel like the Centurial Platinum/Diamond should be toned down? I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Centurial Diamond is 100% impossible (or certainly will be the last badge ever gotten by anyone, ever). A100 N! doesn't exactly sound all that easier, either. Maybe set Plat as A100 UV and Diamond as A100 N! w/ 70% kill rate? (A high enough number to force players to kill through every map possible, but not impossibly high for 100 floors.)
For me, I look at badges like "Complete Angel of Masochism" for Gold and think, that's fair, and then badges like "Clear Lava Pits on AoMs" which should not be all that much easier, if not harder (you'll need a lot of envirosuits to stay safe) but see it placed as Silver. If you're thinking, well I can just nuke Lava Pits, then yes, you could. You can also nuke Cybie when you get to him...in another TWO FLOORS, which is by no means grueling. If Lava Pits weren't so far down I wouldn't mind, but it should probably be placed at the same difficulty level as completing AoMs. Especially when I read on the Wiki that it's supposedly buggy and that you aren't supposed to be able to use envirosuits in AoMs.
Another pain is Brick Silver. Again, maybe it's just me, but the luck required to not only reach the other side of the Wall, but somewhere that isn't going to insta-kill you, AND enough to make it out alive (so at the very least, one phase and one homing, the latter of which is really unlikely that early), feels like it's on the same luck magnitude as, say, Angel of Pacifism. This is not even mentioning that you need to kill (at the very least) eight HKs and six Barons, in a large room, with nothing but pistols and chainsaws. I'll be honest, I haven't really tried for this badge all that much, but I don't feel like wasting time on a Silver that requires the RNG of a Gold+. Jackal is another possibility, but again: Gold+ RNG I'm not wasting time on, and I SURE as hell am not doing Wall on AoMr N!, Jackal or no.
Shotty Platinum has been avoiding my grasp for some time now, but lately it's felt like one of the easier N! challenges. You have a better shot at Hell's Arena than most builds, you're basically done building offensive traits at level 7, and you are provided with a nice range of weapons. Only downside is possible lack of shells, but at least they aren't used up as quickly as...just about every other ammo type.
Does anyone else feel like the Centurial Platinum/Diamond should be toned down? I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Centurial Diamond is 100% impossible (or certainly will be the last badge ever gotten by anyone, ever). A100 N! doesn't exactly sound all that easier, either. Maybe set Plat as A100 UV and Diamond as A100 N! w/ 70% kill rate? (A high enough number to force players to kill through every map possible, but not impossibly high for 100 floors.)