Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 06:52

Title: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 06:52
Few things I wanted to gather some opinions on.

First is Whizkid 2 - As it currently stands, the effect of modding assemblies only applies to assemblies constructed after getting WK 2. I think this acts like more of an oversight then anything, and the modding an assembly effect should apply to any assembly that doesn't already have a modpack. Further discussion can be found here. (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6757.0.html)

Second is the rarity of modpacks. This is something that I don't have an opinion on - I just wanted to know what people thought. Do they spawn too often? Not often enough? Should they spawn in more special levels? Should the unique modpacks be made more accessible considering the amount of assemblies they are used in? What do you think?

The third is assemblies in general. I think some of the assemblies need a few tweaks. An example that comes to my mind is the cybernano armor when compared to it's "lesser" cousin, the Nanoskin armor. For the addition of an onyx pack to PPN, meaning you need 2 unique modpacks, the effects are quite lackluster - especially on enemies that can really bring the pain, where the additional resistances of the Nanoskin give more benefit.

What are your thoughts? Where do you stand?
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Eyro on October 01, 2013, 12:27
I think the first two are made laughable with a scavenger runthrough, I really wanna try that now...
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 01, 2013, 12:27
I don't have an opinion on most assemblies. The only assemblies I really care about on most runs are: Tactical boots, fireproof boots, fireproof armor and depending on if I'm in a weapon-restricting challenge: elephant gun or speedloader pistol. Sometimes I make a powered red/blue armor if I get a N-mod from Armory/D-Lab, but it's not that big of a deal if I don't get it. Same with the O-mod, but I've found that outside Armory/D-Lab a few times.

Funnily enough, all of those assemblies I listed are basic assemblies.
I don't need WK to make any of those. I just need the RNG to do what it does best and gift me a mod pack every now and again. Doesn't happen all that often but you know what? Procedural generation. Make the best out of your current situation while dealing with the crap the RNG shoots at you.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Eyro on October 01, 2013, 12:40
Nevermind, Scavenger either makes you wait a really long time to get it or have a horrible early game. ._.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 18:28
MSs is also a bad choice to pick on something like Ao100 where you could pick ammochain or a melee master. It also doesn't work on the chainsaw, which would give you an advantage early-game when you need it. I really don't see it as an option here.

I don't have an opinion on most assemblies. The only assemblies I really care about on most runs are: Tactical boots, fireproof boots, fireproof armor and depending on if I'm in a weapon-restricting challenge: elephant gun or speedloader pistol. Sometimes I make a powered red/blue armor if I get a N-mod from Armory/D-Lab, but it's not that big of a deal if I don't get it. Same with the O-mod, but I've found that outside Armory/D-Lab a few times.

Funnily enough, all of those assemblies I listed are basic assemblies.
I don't need WK to make any of those. I just need the RNG to do what it does best and gift me a mod pack every now and again. Doesn't happen all that often but you know what? Procedural generation. Make the best out of your current situation while dealing with the crap the RNG shoots at you.

It's for that reason that I want to discuss the other assemblies - there should be some get up and go to get those advanced and master assemblies, yeah?
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 01, 2013, 18:41
MSs is also a bad choice to pick on something like Ao100 where you could pick ammochain or a melee master. It also doesn't work on the chainsaw, which would give you an advantage early-game when you need it. I really don't see it as an option here.

It's not a bad choice just because you don't like MSs or prefer MAC.

Quote
It's for that reason that I want to discuss the other assemblies - there should be some get up and go to get those advanced and master assemblies, yeah?

...No? No opinion.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 19:01
I didn't say I didn't like it. I said that I can't see it as an (effective) option. If you can prove me otherwise, i'd be really happy, because I like the whole idea of MSs.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: thelaptop on October 01, 2013, 19:17
Not sure if trolling or acting ignorant by choice.  See also this mortem (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6288.msg54563.html#msg54563).

I would like to also be on the record once again to state that MSs is awesome for long-haul games, as long as you are relatively patient and careful where you are firing from.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 01, 2013, 19:19
I didn't say I didn't like it. I said that I can't see it as an (effective) option. If you can prove me otherwise, i'd be really happy, because I like the whole idea of MSs.

I don't know if you're expecting anything in particular from MSs.
A lot of my recent wins (before I took a break from DoomRL) were MSs runs. Like this one here (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6301.msg54699.html#msg54699).

Edit: Oh, and the one thelaptop linked, too. That's...another one of my MSs adventures. Hee.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 20:13
Third time i've tried to write this out. My internet hates me. ;_;

Actually, i'm neither trolling nor purposefully acting ignorant, nor being sarcastic or anything. I forgot that the notation for Scavenger was MSc, not MSs - That's why it appears out of nowhere when the previous discussion was about Scavenger, and not sharpshooter.

I know how awesome Sharpshooter can be and i'm actually planning on doing a run with it - Since pistols get 2 die and you always get max roll, every P mod you apply adds 2 to every hit. Combine that with requirementless whizkid from Tech and you can get some pretty near damage coming off SoG 5 + something like a P3T2 pistol, even factoring knockback into it (doesn't really affect cornershooting, could be annoying if you're not near cover though, but could also save your butt). It's also great on N!, allowing you to punt mobs around.

Let me amend my previous statement:

"I didn't say I didn't like it. I said that I can't see it as an (effective) option. If you can prove me otherwise, i'd be really happy, because I like the whole idea of MSc."

MSc seems too dependent on the RNG for too little benefit, giving you only a 1/3 chance at best of receiving the mod you want from an exotic or unique ranged weapon (Unless you get the trigun or something, of course) - then you actually have to get the exotic or unique to drop to disassemble it, and then you have to have a shot at getting what you want to get. It also blocks Berserker, Dualgunner and Triggerhappy - Locking you out of making the best of a melee, pistol, or rapidfire game, leaving you with a shotgun main and rocket backup - and if you're plaing Ao100, better hope you got that Nano pack from the unique you scavenged.

On the few runs I tried MSc it was really lackluster - that's why i'm asking.

Sorry for the confusion.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Eyro on October 01, 2013, 20:46
Yeah, I understand that scavenger has a powerful ability in making the RNG favor you modpack wise by way of throwing shittons of mods at you, and I understand there needs to be a trade off.

But holy shit we get to do -nothing-. o_O
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 01, 2013, 20:48
Scavenger standard run? Excuse me while I try it. I've never tried it outside of 100/666.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 21:33
Yeah, I understand that scavenger has a powerful ability in making the RNG favor you modpack wise by way of throwing shittons of mods at you, and I understand there needs to be a trade off.

But holy shit we get to do -nothing-. o_O

Yeah. You're basically locked into shotguns (Unless you want to do Melee without Berserker/MMB, Pistols without Dualgunner/MSs, or Rapidfires without Triggerhappy/MAC) - and even then, shotguns don't have a powerful assembly apart from nanoshrapnel which isn't as good as some of the advanced assemblies, and you lose out on the benefits of armor assemblies because shotguns, especially nanoshrapnel, favor cornershooting. I mean, a Nanoshrapnel SSG would be awesome, but how lucky would you have to be with the RNG for that to happen? And that's the best case scenario.

And that's assuming you get your modpacks from uniques and exotics - first, you have to take into account it's only ranged weapons, so all of those duelist armors and energy shields and phaseshift sets and stuff? Yeah, those don't count. Second, you have to realize that you can only get the "good" packs from uniques - Exotics only have a chance to give Sniper or Firestorm packs, not nano or onyx packs. Thirdly, you have to take into account that you have only a 1/3 chance at best of getting your desired pack - and 33% isn't exactly lucky odds. And all that's without taking into account the rarity of uniques and exotics - without getting really lucky, you'll probably only see 5-6 uniques on an Ao100 game - and assuming that about 1/3 of those are armours/boots (In reality, 11/26 uniques are able to be disassembled), you'll have 4 shots on average of getting your modpack - leading you to get about 1 nano pack per game from MSc - on Ao100, which you'll probably get a good modpack drop from anyway plus you'll get to keep your uniques and exotics.

Then in actually picking the trait path - you have to choose your poison. Go straight for the master trait and have no early game advantages? Go for Relx2+SM and put off the master trait for a few more levels, meaning you'll have to carry around those exotics and uniques and waste your inventory space? Either way, you're going to have to take EEx2, which is going to be pretty much useless to you. And if you're playing harder difficulties, without vast reserves of ammo and lucky knockbacks good luck to you clearing out those harder mobs on the first few floors, since either way you're not going to have (m)any traits to give you advantages compared to other builds.

It just doesn't seem to be worth it on paper, but I really like the idea - hence why I said if someone can prove me wrong and show it's a great master trait then i'd really appreciate it.

Scavenger standard run? Excuse me while I try it. I've never tried it outside of 100/666.

Doable but you'd be handicapping yourself unless you got REALLY lucky - in which case, you might as well have gotten an AFJ or GCB on a pistol run or something like that.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: thelaptop on October 01, 2013, 22:00
Damnit Aki, more PEW PEW, less QQ.  Don't tell me that you are so uningenious that you can't figure out a cool strat for a given Master Trait?
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 01, 2013, 22:05
Damnit Aki, more PEW PEW, less QQ.  Don't tell me that you are so uningenious that you can't figure out a cool strat for a given Master Trait?

At times like this, I honestly can't tell if you're insulting me or it's your sense of humor. I'm not good with this stuff ;_;

As for more Pew pew, i'm playing AoMC atm. Does that count?
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Zalminen on October 02, 2013, 06:47
I don't think I've ever used Scavenger outside of Ao100 as it always felt too RNG dependent to me.

Even on Ao100 I pretty much used it so I could eventually complete the assembly list, not because it felt useful on its own.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 02, 2013, 08:04
Actually, that's something that I may as well address in this thread as well: Scavenger, and what do you think of it?

It does feel too RNG dependant and unless you get REALLY lucky with uniques and then disassembling them, you don't get much, if anything, out of it. It also blocks way too may things.

Although, it would be hard to balance - if it gave a modpack of your choosing on disassembling a ranged unique, things could get out of hand really fast on a lucky game.

The luck argument could be made for any master trait too, though. Nanoshrapnel SSG on shottyhead game or something ridiculous like that.

I'd like to see what people think of that, too.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 02, 2013, 10:07
Alright so I'm just gonna drop this here

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 White Rider, level 11 Cyberdemon Br. General Technician,
 sacrificed himself to kill the Mastermind at the Hell Fortress.
 He survived 124036 turns and scored 117534 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 32 minutes and 59 seconds.
 He didn't like it too rough.

 He killed 664 out of 703 hellspawn. (94%)
 He held his right to remain violent.

 He saved himself 15 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 8
  Levels completed : 8

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Cyberdemon's Head
  UAC Star (silver cluster)
  Hell Armorer Badge
  Hell Champion Medal

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ............................................B.............#
  ..........................................................#
  ...................................................X......#
  ..........................................................#
  .........................................B................#
  ..........................................................#
  .............................................B....X.......#
  ...............................................B..........#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ................................................B.........#
  ............................................B.............#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experience 55746/11
  ToHit Ranged +4  ToHit Melee +6  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +3

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Technician

    Hellrunner       (Level 1)
    Son of a gun     (Level 2)
    Eagle Eye        (Level 2)
    Brute            (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Scavenger        (Level 1)

  SoG->SoG->EE->EE->Int->Int->WK->WK->MSc->Bru->HR->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   missile launcher (6d9) [1/4] (F1N1P3)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   tactical boots [0/0] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   shell box (x36)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] plasmatic shotgun (8d3) [1/1]
    [b] red armor [4/4] (100%) (N)
    [c] red armor [2/4] (41%)
    [d] plasma shield [0/0] (100%)
    [e] chainsaw (4d6)
    [f] shotgun shell (x36)
    [g] shotgun shell (x70)
    [h] shotgun shell (x70)
    [i] shotgun shell (x70)
    [j] large med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] large med-pack
    [m] envirosuit pack
    [n] envirosuit pack
    [o] technical mod pack
    [p] agility mod pack
    [q] bulk mod pack
    [r] bulk mod pack
    [s] blood skull
    [t] plasteel boots [4/4] (93%) (APT)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    None

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    103 former humans
    61 former sergeants
    22 former captains
    84 imps
    71 demons
    196 lost souls
    28 cacodemons
    20 hell knights
    22 barons of hell
    22 arachnotrons
    4 former commandos
    11 pain elementals
    4 revenants
    1 mancubus
    1 arch-vile
    5 elite former humans
    2 elite former sergeants
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 agony elemental
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  On level 7 he assembled a micro launcher!
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 11 he witnessed the Wall.
  On level 11 he assembled a tactical boots!
  He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
  On level 12 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 12 he romped upon the Abyssal Plains.
  He slaughtered the beasts living there.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  Level 15 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  On level 17 he assembled a plasmatic shrapnel!
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  On level 19 he found the Trigun!
  On level 19 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  He cracked the Vaults and cleared them out!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  He nuked level 24!
  He defeated the Mastermind and found the TRUE EVIL!
  On level 25 he finally sacrificed himself to kill the Mastermind.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 There are stairs leading downward here.
 This is it. This is the lair of all evil! What will you meet here?
 You feel vulnerable again.
 You wear/wield : a fireproof duelist armor [2/2] (100%) (A)
 A voice bellows: "Don't think you can surprise me!" You are hit!
 You start running!
 The missile hits John Carmack. You dodge! The missile hits the baron of hell.
 The baron of hell hits you.
 You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
 The missile hits John Carmack. You are hit! Your fireproof duelist armor is
 damaged!
 The missile hits John Carmack. You dodge! You dodge! The missile hits the
 baron of hell. You are hit! Your fireproof duelist armor is completely
 destroyed! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 264 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 197 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 17 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 19 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 30 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 5 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 16 killed the bitch and survived.
 9 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

My thoughts on Scavenger on a standard run?
Basically makes Armory/D-Lab and Vaults a requirement, and needing to do Vaults either requires getting a plasmatic shrapnel and phase devices or CC+ for the Arena Master's Staff. I guess...if you're putting points into EE anyway for Int1 to get MSc, CC+ isn't that bad if you use the RL from Arena and use it on Arena Master. Certainly felt a lot easier than shotgunning AM from across the map like I'm used to--just another reason why I don't do CC+ all that often these days.

I certainly did not need to save as much as I did but I just wanted to mess around. I got a handful of exotic/unique weapons on this run, including two Tristar Blasters, Minigun, Trigun, and I'm pretty certain I also got a Railgun on this run but I might have Unloaded it and it actually never entered my inventory.

More on Scavenger, though: It blocks Berserker, Dualgunner, and Triggerhappy. But not Brute, Son of a Gun, and Son of a Bitch. I want to emphasize the fact that both SoG and SoB are allowed. That's incredibly generous. MGK blocks SoB. MSs blocks SoB. (MBD doesn't but you need TH so of course it isn't blocked). I remember seeing in another post somewhere that SoG = Fin + SoB for pistols. And if you really wanted, Fin isn't blocked so you can put points into that too. So building up to MSc while packing some decent power isn't that difficult. And unless you're playing on AoMr, you're not limited to just pistols--you could use a shotgun for the first half of the game if you really wanted to. Having EE2 and a RL for Anomaly made the Bruiser Brothers trivial.

tl;dr
To play Scavenger on a standard run/non-long haul run is to take whatever the RNG gives you + special stages with an enhanced chance to spawn out-of-the-ordinary items, and then using your Unload abilities to push the RNG one step further. And building incredibly silly shit like a P3NF missile launcher.
Praise be to the Mother-in-law! (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3212)

also I did not know this happens if you try to hit JC while he's out of your LOS
Code: [Select]
A voice bellows: "Don't think you can surprise me!"
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 02, 2013, 17:47
From the wiki:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, it still seems too RNG dependant. Was the 15 saves to try scumming on a reload to get the mods you wanted? I can't tell from the context of what you posted ;-;

And making the vaults/CC+/Deimos Labs a requirement for harder difficulties is suicide if you're not equipped well enough when they spawn.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 02, 2013, 18:11
Thank you for providing verified information from the wiki after I learned about new things. Sure is helpful.

Anyway, it still seems too RNG dependant. Was the 15 saves to try scumming on a reload to get the mods you wanted? I can't tell from the context of what you posted ;-;

The saves were to make sure I didn't die on Wall or CC+ or Armory.

Explain what you mean by "too RNG dependent". What is considered too much RNG dependency? What is not enough?

What if mod packs were removed from the game entirely?

Quote
And making the vaults/CC+/Deimos Labs a requirement for harder difficulties is suicide if you're not equipped well enough when they spawn.

That's not a good enough reason to skip them. Risk versus reward.
Also tough luck if you want to get Conqueror on UV/N!. You're not geared any differently in higher difficulties but you have more traits. Use them instead of relying on gear all the damn time.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 02, 2013, 18:22
No need to get your back up or anything. I was just trying to show that the information was out there, I wasn't trying to offend you.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Eyro on October 02, 2013, 19:53
I find Roguelikes are good because the main focus is bad game design.

RNG, Fake Difficulty, and Permadeath are all bad mechanics that Roguelikes manage to make shine, so you should expect this kinda stuff, Aki. I suppose the main point of mod packs and RNG is to make every run have a different difficulty.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 02, 2013, 19:58
Oh yes, don't get me wrong. I enjoy all that kind of stuff even if it frustrates the hell out of me. However, i'm simply concerned with the balance of the trait itself.

If it's not broken, then don't fix it - but there's nothing wrong with discussing it to see what other people think.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 02, 2013, 20:42
No need to get your back up or anything. I was just trying to show that the information was out there, I wasn't trying to offend you.

Sorry if that sounded insensitive.
Although shooting at JC meant the end of that run, it was hilarious when it happened and I learned something I didn't know about before. Surprises are fun. Sometimes.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 02, 2013, 20:51
It's okay, I just don't like offending people and causing fights, and try not to >_<

You do bring up a very valid point though about risk versus reward - as for UV Conq, I have a plan for that once I get past AoI.

And yeah, I didn't know that he shouted that either. Did he teleport next to you or anything like that?
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 02, 2013, 22:00
And yeah, I didn't know that he shouted that either. Did he teleport next to you or anything like that?

You know the Hell Knight/Baron SURPRISE at Containment Area? It was like that, instead of JC summoning a ring of HK/HBs around him.
Seems like JC summons the same turn you try to hit him like that. He didn't teleport next to me, he teleported like he normally does.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: IronBeer on October 03, 2013, 16:44
Trouble figuring out what to build with Scavenger?

"Basic" (no Nano/Onyx mods, no exotic bases):
*"Enhanced Hyperblaster" (+ P/T)
*"Mauler Shotgun" (+ P/T)
*"Enhanced Tac Launcher" (+ P/B)
*"Phase Knife" (Piercing Combat Knife + P/B)
*"Enhanced Gatling Gun" (+ P/T/B or maybe A)
*"Hardened Nanofiber Armor" (NF Red + P)
*"Ghetto Inquisitor Armor" (Tac Armor + P)
*"Dash Boots" (Tac Boots + A)
*"Hellwalker Boots" (Cerb Boots + A)

Comments: Really, a full set of "Basic" weapons and your choice of armors should cover pretty much all your bases. The "Mauler Shotgun" will fall off after about Floor 25, but your more powerful weapons (read: Hyperblaster/Tac Launcher) should come online well before then."Hardened Nanofiber" is pretty much a requirement for an Ao100 run, and you can get creative with the base item. The "Enhanced Gatling Gun" doesn't really need an A mod, since you'll have 2xEE as part of your Scavenger pre-reqs.

"Advanced" (advanced mods available, exotic bases available)
Generally, shit gets nuts here. Your imagination is pretty much the limit, but here are some ideas to get you started.
*"Nuclear Cannon" (Burst Nuclear Plasma Rifle + P/B/T) -Nuclear Plasrifles are surprisingly common on Ao100, unfortunately Nuclear Hyperblasters aren't a thing
*"Hellfire Rocket Launcher" (Nanomac. Napalm Launcher + P/T/F) -Pair with Inquisitor Set or Lava Armor for maximum lulz
*"Apocalypse Cannon" (Nuclear Biggest F.G. + P/B/F) -Can sub for standard BFG or VBFG assembly. But why not go for the best?
*"Disintegration Rifle" (Nanomac. Plasma Rifle + P/F/T) -Most Scavengers strive for something like this
*"The Mother-in-Law" (Nanomac. Rocket Launcher + P/T/F) -A timeless classic!
*"Reaper Shotgun" (Nanoshrap. Super Shotgun + P) -Hey, you can be part of the army of the dead too!
*"Ultimate Antigrav Boots" (Phaseshift Antigrav Boots + A) -Pretty much the ultimate boots
*"Hellward Skin" (Nanoskin Energy-Shielded Vest + P, possibly A) -Makes you all but immune to "energy" attacks; still decent against "ballistic" attacks too
*"Cybertitan Suit" (Cybernano Gothic/Cybernetic Armor + P) -I'd say the previous assembly is better, but if you like having just a stupid number or armor points, this is for you
*And tons more!

Addressing the trait at large, I think it's generally best for long-haul games, but it's plenty viable for normal games too. IMO, smartest thing to do is push for an extra point on Int as a matter of course, and defer the master trait by 1 level. Once you have Int2, you'll need to rely on a Combat/Tactical Shotgun around corners, and a Gatling Gun in the open (2x EE subs for per-shot damage). Like most other Technician masters, Scavenger isn't very strong until you actually have the master, but it really shines over time.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 03, 2013, 20:05
Yup. Yup, I lost it when I saw the mother in law. I remember seeing that mortem the other day and boy, that was hilarious. If you can reliably make the mother in law then you're good to go. Time to try an Ao100 MSc run.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Sambojin on October 03, 2013, 20:11
I'd have to agree that going straight for Int(2) would be the best option. EE(2) makes chainguns fairly useable as a backup weapon early on. You've also got that handy little tech mod that you start with. A T1-shotgun (or chaingun) is actually a pretty useable weapon. As soon as your mastertrait comes online, dis-assemble it to get another random mod.

It's not as though it's a horrible mastertrait. Even unmodded plasma rifles become useful killers with their high EE enhanced accuracy, but your's will definately be modded. SoB(2) still works wonders, so I'm not sure why you think that you can't rapid-fire with the trait. Shotguns, RLs, MLs, plasma rifles and even BFGs all get a lot better with high accuracy and the wonders of Int(2). Admittedly, they'd be that good without the mastertrait, but the Scavenger ability is just a nice little bonus on top of everything. You can un-mod your start-off weapons and you'll usually get around 2-3 extra mods throughout the game by destroying exotics/uniques. It's not uber-powerful, but it's not bad either. It does give you a chance at getting those normally completely unrealistic assemblies and mod combos in a normal game, which is pretty good in my opinion. I'll have to put up some mortems with really dumb/good mod-combos at some point.

Could it use a boost? Probably. Is it bad? Not really.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Sambojin on October 03, 2013, 20:27
Another small point on the mastertrait:

That starting tech mod and the two from CC+ are golden. EE enhanced chaingun fire will get you through the arena (or tech modded shotty cornershots), and accurate rockets destroy the AM in CC+. It doesn't really matter what mods you get from it, as soon as you get Scavenger, you can definately get what you need. It may not be from the rare mods selection, but you can always end up with the basic or advanced assembly of your choice (that doesn't use a rare mod) as soon as you get Scavenger.

Mod a weapon, destroy a weapon, get a new random mod-pack. If it's not the one you want, repeat the process.

To me that's pretty damn powerful.
 
(was this changed in 0.9.9.7 to only have a percentage chance of a mod-pack return? I'll have to do a couple of runs on HNTR to check).
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 03, 2013, 20:35
I'd have to agree that going straight for Int(2) would be the best option. EE(2) makes chainguns fairly useable as a backup weapon early on. You've also got that handy little tech mod that you start with. A T1-shotgun (or chaingun) is actually a pretty useable weapon. As soon as your mastertrait comes online, dis-assemble it to get another random mod.

From the wiki:

(http://puu.sh/4H23C/6e6b99c6a8.png)

This is what I was basing my assessment off - if you could turn mods into other mods with the trait then it would become a lot better. Are you sure this is the case?
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: White Rider on October 03, 2013, 20:43
*"Ghetto Inquisitor Armor" (Tac Armor + P)
*"Cybertitan Suit" (Cybernano Gothic/Cybernetic Armor + P) -I'd say the previous assembly is better, but if you like having just a stupid number or armor points, this is for you

My favorites on that list. Ultimate Antigrav Boots and the Mother-in-law are fun too.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: thelaptop on October 03, 2013, 20:44
Mother-in-Law gets a boost in 0.9.9.8.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Sambojin on October 03, 2013, 20:44
Nope. Could have sworn I've gotten an A mod off of my tech modded shotty at one point though. But I'm kind of stupid and forgetful, so it might not have happened. I have this love/hate thing going with DoomRL where it gives me more stuff than I could ever use to complete the game, or it gives me nothing. It might have been on one of those "oodles of stuff" runs. I'll test it this arvo.

That would make a lot more sense though. Otherwise it'd be the most abuseable and amazing mastertrait in the game.

Everyone can completely disregard my previous post until then.
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Aki on October 03, 2013, 20:56
Nope. Could have sworn I've gotten an A mod off of my tech modded shotty at one point though. But I'm kind of stupid and forgetful, so it might not have happened. I have this love/hate thing going with DoomRL where it gives me more stuff than I could ever use to complete the game, or it gives me nothing. It might have been on one of those "oodles of stuff" runs. I'll test it this arvo.

As someone else recently told me, that's part of the fun of a Rougelike.

Like when you're on AoB and you get a combat pistol and GCB in the same run. Fun fun.

Quote
That would make a lot more sense though. Otherwise it'd be the most abuseable and amazing mastertrait in the game.

Yeah, it would be totally amazing. Abusable? I don't really think it'd be as abusable as say, old gun kata or ammochain. I can't quite remember old Gun Kata but I think it was something like 0 energy shots after dodges and free reloads as well as a free shot after a kill. And of course, old ammochain was *zero* ammo used.

But it'd still be up there.

Yeah,
Mother-in-Law gets a boost in 0.9.9.8.

Just sayin'.

Does it become a unique or assembly or something cool like that?

Oh man, that'd be awesome. Imagine something like...

There is a Mother-In-Law (6d9) here. You pick up the Mother-In-Law. "Another monster to add to the family!"
Title: Re: Whizkid, Modpack Rarity, and Assemblies
Post by: Eyro on October 04, 2013, 11:39
"Old Ammochain was *zero* ammo used"


I hope everyone who used it had this face:

(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/561/468/c1e.jpg)