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Messages - Sylph

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Discussion / Re: How Dead is this Game?
« on: April 13, 2021, 21:53 »
Doomrl is always one of the first programs installed on a new device for me too!

I think it always will be.

Every few years, I tend to come back to it, and start gathering those badges to unlock game modes and increase in rank! I love the gradual progression, and the way you get to 'pick' which challenges you'll use to progress.

The strategy in doomrl is absolutely remarkable. The only game that comes close, for me, is the revamped xcom series.

I have enjoyed some jupiter hell, and it's my hope that, in time, it manages to accumulate the same depth with a wide range of unique feeling levels, weapons, and builds (both character and modpack! ;)) that doomrl has. I have confidence that it'll get there, but in the mean time doomrl is my go-to title for turn-based tactics!
I haven't visited the forums due to distraction for the last few months, but I'm always eager to read new player experiences, ideas, and mortems.

(Yes Tormuse, your everyman medal was incredible! I'm sorry you didn't get enough fanfare for it!! 🖤)

Regarding these forums: they *really* need the 'auto-lock function on threads to be removed. The traffic has got lower over time, which makes me visit less frequently. However, when I *do* visit, see a topic that interests me and try to join in on some discussion. .. NOPE, thread autolocked, every time!

I have a strong suspicion that this feature is contributing to the 'deadness' of the community.

Most impressive! I've got my eyes on this one, but with a totally different build!
Nice work! I'll take note of the bleeding protection point, I hadn't noticed it myself.

Hi Guys!!!
I've been *loving* getting my mittens on Jupiter Hell! I think you guys have done *such* a fab job with the the engine, how responsive it feels, how atmospheric it can be, and how open to potential it is! I just wanted to put together few thoughts I've been having about the combat tactics of the game as it is right now. I have a few questions about the LOS design decisions, and a bunch of ideas that I feel might not be too hard to implement, that could offer a great deal more strategic depth to the game.
I'm not covering nebulous concepts like 'make more diverse weaponry aka where's the BFG?!' or 'make more individual challenges/areas', because I appreciate that they are in the development pipeline, and how they're implemented is something I'm more excited to see the dev's solution to, after the way new content was handled in DRL!
That is to say, I'm certainly not as imaginative as Kornel and the dev team when it comes to world-building and novel content!

What I feel I *can* offer feedback on, though, is the minutiae that can create depth on the tactical level. Ideas that, I feel, will help the procedurally-generated content have emergent depth. As a dedicated DRL player, and someone who has handled micro-changes to balance games in the past, I feel like there's some potential for amazing improvements in the current content, and hope some of these ideas inspire changes that can really help improve the replayability of the game!

Since this is a long post, I've separated it into 2 sections - LOS-related ideas, and other suggestions. I've also broken each section up into suggestions. I figured this would be a lot less spammy than opening tons of different topics! I've noticed throughout the development of Jupiter Hell that Kornel has been open to suggestions from the playerbase (even going so far as describing is as 'a promise' from the devs to the community.) I hope you can understand that I'm throwing out ideas in the spirit of this open invitation; it's not something I'd ever be so cheeky as to do without there being such a strong invitation of player feedback! I just hope you can take these ideas in the spirit they are intended, rather than seeing them as a laundry list of features I'd selfishly want as though the game were my design baby!!! I'm not seeking specific implementation here, I'm just trying to inspire!

First, a comment about LOS:
One of the things that proved a real stumbling block for me when I was getting into Jupiter Hell was the way some weapons are completely blocked from attacking targets outside of your view. I originally typed quite a bit on this subject, but I'm going to put it behind tags at the bottom of this post, because it's not my motivation behind posting here. In short, I think hitting targets outside of LOS should at least be possible to avoid puzzled newcomers repetitively firing into the black expecting results. Making it for the most part impractical can be achieved by adding, like, an 80% miss chance for non-AOE weapons. I suggest this so that the strategies that are opened by making fog-firing impractical can still be enjoyed, while not confusing players with a weird unstoppable 'wall' at the edge of LOS!
The rest of this section is suggestions that would offer ways around this 'block' at the edge of LOS, and I think if ideas in these directions were implemented, it could make for some really interesting strategy playing around the limited firing range!

Suggestions to improve LOS-related strategy:
Regarding LOS, I think that (provided monster AI were fixed to retaliate to being attacked outside their vision) there are a lot of opportunities here to really make things interesting.

1. Hacking security cameras.
  I loved how the current hacking explores all kinds of different avenues as options for getting control over combat-ready units (droids and turrets). How about controlling some non-combat units though? Namely, cameras! I think it would be awesome if a player could hack the cameras on a level, giving a few areas of LOS outside of their own! Even if it was just 3-4 'circles' of LOS on a map it would really open up strategic options. I think this would be an awesome 'cheaper' option for thrifty hackers that just wanted that extra boost without spending all their multitools. Plus it has a really cool 'assassin/specialist operative' feel to it!

2. Drones with cameras.
'singalen' made a post suggesting that player-hacked drones share their LOS, and I think that's a really interesting idea! After a little thought it made sense to me that only units that had cameras onboard would be able to do this. I'm unsure whether all drones would have cameras - the bigger droids seem more like battle robots than reconnaissance tools. I'm sure, though, that the lighter drones would be likely to have cameras, and even the option of getting a weaponless 'recon drone' as a low-level helper could be awesome in this regard! Props to singalen for the suggestion!

3. Scopes.
  Scopes could be weapon perks, perhaps able to be added with accuracy mod packs, and attached by default on hunting and sniper rifles (like the wind-up perk is standard on chaingun class weapons). A scope could be an active skill, which takes a turn to 'deploy', and modifies the players LOS from the usual range:6 circle, to a range:9 cone (9 is just an example, a cone like the current shotgun blast area), for a turn. I feel this would be a great way that a player could use their intel and ranged weaponry without simply having an overpowered ranged attack. The fact that it would tank our DPS and restrict our peripheral vision could be balancing and immersive factors.

4. Flares.
  Flares that light up an area, extending our LOS a few tiles in their direction (by that I mean, stretching our LOS circle in the direction of the flare, rather than creating a new LOS circle around the flare - From my understanding of the way light levels function in JH this might not be simple, but if implemented another way it would strictly have to give a DISadvantage to the actor nearest the flare! Maybe something as simple as reducing the LOS of any actor within X tiles of the flare, and increasing the LOS of actors outside that area?) These would probably have to be more stackable than grenades, and found in packs of more than 1, to actually be viable finds, but they'd be a great opportunity for more strategic depth, imo.

5. Height.
   I know that height is currently uniform on single floors, and having a full 3d system with LOS restrictions and such would be a *huge* undertaking well beyond the scope of a feature suggestion like this, but perhaps a really simple form could be implemented? Something like a type of floor tile that looks like a 'platform', somewhat raised from surroundings, that extends LOS by 1 when a player is standing on it? The same platforms could reduce LOS by 1 tile if a player is not standing on them (so the LOS equation that determines whether a player can see a tile is given -1 if the tile is raised). This doesn't sound like it would to too massive to implement, and could open up the currently very 'fixed' feeling of LOS, while also opening further positional tactics to enrich the game's combat.
(On this subject, this might be reaching a little, but perhaps having a trait that allows players to climb on top of certain walls -  treasure chests, those destructible piles of boxes, explosive barrels etc?)
Whatever, climbing traits or not, I think just having a floor type that is slightly elevated that affects LOS could be really interesting.

6. Audio 'tells'.
  I appreciate that this is already somewhat implemented. Unfortunately, the strategy that is offered by reacting to sounds is somewhat hampered by the aforementioned inability to hit anything outside LOS. Still, even if it *were* possible, I feel that the sounds in JH are much less recognisable than they were in DRL. I think the monster audio was implemented in DRL *so* well that it's a real shame to lose it here - one of the most impressive measures of this feature, for me, is the fact that in really late stages of challenge for DRL, monsters can start to show up that don't make any sounds, and it gives them this feel like they're 'specialist' adversaries, really out to get the player. It actually took me a while to figure out what it was about nightmare imps that spooked me out so much, and when the penny dropped - their silence - it actually made me realise just how well DRL had done in immersing me through audio! For JH, I'd suggest that monster sounds be made more distinctive, I'm aware that distinctive sounds are there, but I wasn't for a long time; perhaps they're currently too quiet, or too rarely transmitted? Maybe this lack of hearing them is a product of not waiting on the spot for thousands of turns, and they just need to be emitted more often?
All of this, of course, would probably require some relaxation of the 'unable to hit outside LOS' rule in order to really offer direct interaction on the player's part, but even were it not possible to shoot outside LOS, I think the game could really benefit from some louder and more distinctive monster sound effects.

7. Enemy 'snipers'.
Of course, this 'interacting beyond LOS' section wouldn't be complete without giving the badguys ways to play with this! I'd suggest that certain monsters, namely those with long-range weaponry like artillery or rifles, be given another reaction besides just 'close in on the player'. Namely, let some monsters react to gunfire outside of their LOS by firing back! As a scripted reaction to being hit by a player outside of their LOS, or perhaps just a reaction to hearing gunfire nearby, enemies could be made to fire back at a player. This could function wonderfully to make a player wary about firing blindly even where ammo wasn't a concern! I'd think it a much better deterrent than just preventing hitting targets outside LOS, and I think it would feel fair, too: given that firing a weapon is sure to both betray a shooter's position and illuminate them!

Other ideas for strategic depth.
In addition to strictly LOS-related suggestions for increasing a player's tactical options, I'd also like to suggest a few other ideas:

a) AI reacting to sound:
  After implementing the pretty essential AI tweaks to make monsters respond to taking damage (at the moment they don't react at all!), it might be really good to have the monsters react to things like grenade explosions. I actually thought that this happened on a recent playthrough, but after testing it out a bit I think it was just chance! Either way, it might be extra-interesting to have different monsters react to explosions differently. Cowardly former humans might run *away* from a plasma grenade explosion, and Robots would likely run away from EMP blasts!
I also noticed that enemies certainly DO react to hearing doors being attacked. I'm unsure whether that's reacting to the sound of gunfire, specific to doors being attacked, or 1-time scripted events (there's certainly one in the military barracks); but I do like how it's a feature!

b) Doors.
  Remember Space Crusade? I used to play the videogame to it, and there was this one global event that gave the player the ability to remotely open and close doors. It was totally broken, because it could be used to shut the dreadnaught (the 'boss' in many missions) in a door as soon as it tried to leave its first room, killing it instantly!
Broken gameplay memories aside, being able to remotely control doors without actually standing next to them might be fun, but probably hard to implement... Perhaps a more balanced and easily implemented option would be that, after hacking the door controls, a player could be able to open or close doors without spending any time doing so? I think that, alone, would open up a lot of depth, since doors could them become advantageous to a player in certain situations! It would mean a player getting the first turn after opening a door, doors could be used to help kill turrets etc. This certainly sounds easy to implement, and it's a small enough effect to be given freely (ie no multitool costs) as an incentive for all characters to interact with terminals (because at the moment non-hackers actually only bother with them to open vaults).
Another idea would be for a hacker to be able to overide the door safety controls, allowing them to close doors when enemies are standing in them! This could, for example, deal some damage to a target and break the door (so that the action can't be repeated/abused).

c) Map hacking.
  I've watched a few videos, and one thing I've noticed is that nobody seems to pay multitools for the hacking feature to get a map of the level. Have you considered making this map feature stay between floors? If that feels too strong, how about making it so that, once the player has paid once (perhaps charge 2 or more multitools?), the feature costs 0 multitools for the rest of the current playthrough? That is, a player must still reach a terminal before getting their 'free' map, but the maps cost nothing for subsequent floors.

d) Exploration mode.
  Finally, I have a suggestion that occurred to me after playing JH 'unspoiled'. One thing I absolutely loved, although I appreciate it went against the design philosophy of the game, was the feeling of exploration and adventure when I started to see separate exits leading not to one-off special levels like DRL, but different paths! I had this great feeling of being 'lost' in a complex, until I realised that no staircase ever led away from the end of the game, thus effectively making it impossible to ever go in the wrong direction! I think it might make for an interesting 'angel of' game if you opened up the ability to go backwards! I appreciate that the level layouts probably aren't 'saved' so revisiting a previous floor (like in ADOM) would be impossible, but perhaps you could simply allow revisiting areas with new randomly generated levels, with a strict player-augmentation block (so a new randomly-generated level is created, but no XP is granted, and no medikits or stimpacks are generated for any floors with a depth less than or equal to the deepest a player has previously visited). This 'exploration mode' might be a fun equivalent to the 'angel of 100' game types, where a player could really go deep in exploring, without things getting too easy from stockpiling resources and experience.

I hope you devs can enjoy some of the suggestions in this list! I've put it together with the hopes that it can improve the replayability of what is shaping up to be an awesome game! Beyond anything else, though, *please* understand that I'm suggesting these out of a love for your products, not some kind of criticism! I *loved* DRL, it's among my favourite videogames of all time, and usually the first game I install on a new computer! I'm really passionate about your products, and would love to see Jupiter Hell match or exceed it on that list! If nothing else, see this list as a love-letter to your amazing game development, and a thankyou for everything you've done in this game, and your others! <3

Discussion 1: Firing outside of LOS being 'blocked':
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Discussion 2: Run-Wait
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Post Mortem / [0.9.6|UV|Te|YAAM] My first UV win! (Rapidfire Tech)
« on: December 28, 2020, 19:29 »
Yay! An ultra violence win with a combat-oriented technician! I was a little gutted, since literally the run before this, I was way ahead of the curve, fighting the summoner with a huge amount of resources, but after knocking down his first stage, I didn't realise just how poisoned I was, walked 3 tiles, and died!
Luckily, immediately after that I put in this run. Getting whizkid early for tinkerer seems a good way of stockpiling resources. I'm a little dismayed at just how few traits the technician has that actually make a difference in combat early-on. It seems that if you're not going for pistols, the only traits that affect combat are hunker down, and sustained fire, and of those, sustained fire actually rarely makes any difference - you're 2-shotting everything for the entire of the first episode, and it seems you can take a hunting rifle (to one-shot some targets), but no traits have the same effect.

Shotguns with quick-swap seem really valuable to me. Particularly if I get an elephant gun or jackhammer and mod it with autoloader. That gives an excellent 'panic button', where you can drop smoke, back up, and keep firing the shotgun into the smoke cloud as you retreat (autoloader working well here).
When there's not a need for a panic button, however, this was simply a matter of hunkering behind walls and firing bursts from wind-up weapons (chaingun/hyperblaster). I'd switch to SMG if something got close, but that isn't shown in the mortem because there came a point where hyperblast+chaingun is just a better use of weapon slots.
I was lucky enough to enter the armory with full keycards, and the rewards from that are awesome! Still, while my weaponry was better this run, I had less healing items than I had in the previous playthrough. That's perhaps more down to finding an armor that gave extra inventory slots than any flaws in the loadout or strategy, though.

I was kinda committed to making a tech work without using the 'wizard' traits (summoning, poison cloud), but I think doing so resulted in combat that felt a little too straightforward. On that note, I think the thing I miss the most, transitioning from doomrl, is knockback. Without knockback it feels like fights are a lot more 1-dimensional. That, and of course terrain destruction, but I can see how terrain destruction is ill-suited to this game.

I'm also a little curious about the mods. Now that 'precise' has been removed from most items, I can't see many modding strategies that do much more than a) skip turns of swapping or reloading, or b) just add damage numbers to a weapon. Precise was different in that it encouraged a player to use the 'aim' function instead of just firing until things are dead, so I sorta lament it's passing, even if it did feel a little overpowered when correctly exploited! I'll be keen to see something like assemblies make an appearance, as well as the bosses and new special levels!

Anyway, I'm going to have a good play with the other classes before moving on to nightmare games. From my limited experience it feels as though the technician is less well suited to a straight-forward strategy like this one (it feels much stronger to use poison gas or remote hacking strategies).

Lots of fun had with this game anyway! I'm glad to finally have a PC set up that can run it! :D

Anyway, here's the mortem! :
Sylph, level 14 Technician, defeated
The Summoner against all odds.
He survived for 23605 turns.
The run time was 3h 27m 7s.
He scored 6562 points.

CALLISTO L3 - Lockdown
CALLISTO L3 -> Callisto Mines L1
Callisto Mines L2 - Infestation
Callisto Mines L2 -> Callisto Anomaly
Callisto Anomaly - cleared
EUROPA L2 -> Europa Dig Zone L1
Europa Dig Zone L3 - Exalted Summons
Europa Dig Zone L3 -> Tyre Outpost
Tyre Outpost - cleared
IO L3 -> CRI Laboratory L1
CRI Laboratory L2 -> CRI Armory
CRI Armory - cleared
BEYOND L2 -> Limbo
Limbo - cleared
BEYOND L3 - Exalted Summons

  Medal of Prejudice (+200)
   * Won with 100% kills
  Explorer Ribbon (+50)
   * Visited all encountered special levels
  Conqueror Ribbon (+100)
   * Completed all encountered special levels
  CRI Bronze Badge
   * Win any game with 100% kills
  CRI Silver Badge
   * Win a MEDIUM or higher game with 100% kills
  CRI Gold Badge
   * Win a UV or higher game with 100% kills

He killed 525 out of 525 enemies.

  41 archreavers
  27 fiends
  6 plasma ravagers
  2 military bots
  15 exalted fiends
  10 rocket turrets
  16 turrets
  4 security sentrys
  1 former CRI grunt
  12 CalSec bots
  10 exalted reavers
  8 CRI soldiers
  9 former CRI soldiers
  1 Summoner
  3 corrupted sergeants
  1 CRI bot MkII
  2 hellish sergeants
  21 ravagers
  11 CRI turrets
  2 combat drones
  20 former soldiers
  14 former guards
  2 former heavys
  23 fire fiends
  7 siege ravagers
  1 former sergeant
  3 exalted soldiers
  10 cryobeross
  6 CRI commandos
  52 CRI marines
  1 guardian bot
  8 hellish soldiers
  3 military drones
  4 hellish heavys
  8 corrupted soldiers
  6 hellish commandos
  4 former grunts
  9 toxic reavers
  25 ice fiends
  2 former CRI sergeants
  20 armored ravagers
  44 CRI bots
  6 reavers
  2 corrupted commandos
  8 cybeross
  2 security drones
  23 cryoreavers
  1 kerberos
  6 former commandos
  7 CalSec sentrys
  1 toxiberos
  2 security bots

  Skilled L2
  Packrat L1
  Sustained fire L2
  Whizkid L2
  Hunker down

Trait order

  Slot #1 : AV3 hyperblaster P2A
   * Hunter 1
   * Exalted bane
   * Deadly 1
   * Molten 1
   * Critical 20
   * Point Blank 2
   * Spin-up

  Slot #2 : 12ga jackhammer B2
   * Autoloader
   * Swap Harness
   * Frenzy 2

  Slot #3 : 7.62 gatling A
   * Critical 25
   * Frenzy 3
   * Spin-up

  Body    : CRI combat armor P
   * Plated

  Head    : combat helmet PA2
   * Plated
   * Long-range tracking
   * Critical 10

  Utility : AV3 auto AMP
   * Auto gyro-stabilizer
   * Auto precise
   * Auto accelerator

  energy cell (x100)
  energy cell (x100)
  energy cell (x8)
  7.62 ammo (x90)
  gas grenade (x3)
  EMP grenade (x3)
  CRI phase kit (x1)
  multitool (x4)
  stimpack (x1)
  large medkit
  large medkit
  large medkit

Any idea whether this build is still viable now that precise is gone from the accuracy mods for most weapons? I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to build sniper characters since I can only find precise on incredibly lucky drops, or from modding smgs...

Wait, nightmare is actually possible to beat? I cant even reliably beat im too young to die! Hundreds of tries and Ive beaten the game twice I think?
Yep! Top doomrl players are tackling challenges (with some success) on nightmare like 'play angel of darkness + angel of marksmanship getting 50%+ kills' or 'complete the game with only 10/10hp (usually it's 50/50hp) with levelups off!

Standard N! play is pretty tame in comparison!

Are you using corners for cover and dropping medpacks to pull monsters out? With those alone no-nightmare games should be pretty straightforward to beat. x

Discussion / Special levels-Pass or play?
« on: October 24, 2020, 06:36 »
Remember Horos' awesome 'nightmare advice' topic from a few years ago?
I wanted to edit my post in there with a 'years later' update, but the topic is locked.
Now, as I thought a bit more about it, I decided this place was quiet enough to justify revisiting it.
During one part of the discussion, I talked about how I tended to play N! Conqueror runs as a 'standard' playstyle. This moved the topic into a discussion about special levels on N!, and I posted a lists of which ones were always beneficial, which were situational, and which usually left me closer to game over than I was going in.
Now, only 3 years later, I've got a N!, Conqueror; 100%kills; Full Win (JC) with almost every master trait. I just did it with scavenger, which was loads of fun!
As such, I thought posting a new list would be a great demonstration of how much the skill in the community has increased in the last 3 years!
(I'm including my original list below, for comparison's sake)
Here's my new list:

Always beneficial:
- Hell's arena - Nowadays this level usually takes me 1 or 2 medpacks. Easy-ish, average rewards
- Military base - Shellbox(~50%), medkits++, modpacks, envirosuit! Very easy, good rewards
- Basic Chained court - Very easy, good rewards - Using 0-1 medpacks, leaving with mods, chainsaw, and berserk for days.
- Hell's armoury - Clear level from second-leftmost doorway, farm overcharged plasma guns to ease shambler battle. Quite easy, awesome rewards
- The wall - Deadly on low ammo. Worth doing if you bring extra ammo in! Easy-ish, poor rewards
- Halls of carnage - I now use (homing)phase device to skip this level! Worth it for BFG+xp+bulkpack. Average difficulty, average rewards
- Limbo - I still just don't struggle with this level, but consensus suggests I'm an outlier here! Somewhat hard, Incredible rewards
- The lava pits / Mt Erebus - Rocket jumping: great. I think the nuclear BFG trivialities these levels. Very easy, average rewards
- Phobos lab - A tricky level, but there are *so* many medpacks, you can almost guarantee coming out stronger. Hard-ish, good rewards.
- City of Skulls - Ok, I realised that the shell box completely trivialises this level! Yeah, I was stoopid!! Very easy, poor rewards.
- The vaults - Zero healing  = health deficit. If I've got the staff, I'm always game, but bring extra medpacks! Hard-ish, unpredictable rewards.
- Deimos lab - Some builds are in mortal danger from 2xshambler. At least supercharge is accessible with rocket dig! Somewhat hard, Incredible rewards.
- Chained court + - Years back I thought 'close to a deathtrap'! These days I lose 1, maybe 2 medkits on it and it feels much less 'chancy'. Somewhat hard, great rewards

- Containment area - The only level I graded up! Barons can be inescapable, where not even rocket jump extricates. Hard, underwhelming rewards.
- Plains of torment - Shell box trivialises the (otherwise hard) ambush, but disappointing rewards = 'situational' level. Somewhat hard, poor rewards.
- Spider's Lair - Tricky at times, but BFG+battery is good, and with decent time-management, spiders aren't too deadly. Hard, average rewards.
- Unholy Cathedral - Obv. great for melee build. Otherwise it's XP+artifact for a cost of medpacks + speed mods / traits. Hard, poor rewards.

Not worth it
- Mortuary - It's not that I leave the mortuary worse-off than I entered it... It's that my chance of dying in the mortuary is *significantly* higher than the entire rest of the run put together! Extremely difficult, incredible rewards.

It really shocked me, just how differently I categorise them now, with only a few years of practice passing by!!
(The old list:)
Always beneficial:
- Hell's arena (if you're not fussed with conquerer, and health packs are running out, only say 'yes' once... You get a lot of medpack as a reward for an easy level, and you'll have a super-easy chained court!)
- Military base for sure.
- Basic Chained court for sure.
- Hell's armoury for sure
- The wall - pretty basic.
- Containment area - but I use most of the rockets I get there!
- Halls of carnage. BFG nice!
- The lava pits / Mt Erebus - If you have envirosuits or cerb boots, the lava element you get from here is like an extra life.
- Limbo : Not too tricky, and great rewards. The nuclear BFG is just beautiful! <3

- Chained court + is close to a deathtrap, but the modpacks and staff are great later on, so it's a 'die now or be strong later', and the extra experience often pushes me into enough experience to get hellrunner in time for phobos lab!
- Phobos lab if you are fast enough to outrun a nightmare demon, if not it's a deathtrap.
- Deimos lab is pretty much always beneficial if it doesn't kill me. There's a very real chance of having hell's armoury or deimos lab make the rest of your run *far* easier. From *any* rare modpack, you can assemble a tower shield, gravity boots, nano(machic) weapon of your choice, plasmatic shotgun, or demolition ammo pistol, and every one of those items it worth risking your life for.
- Unholy Cathedral. This is great for melee characters, and possible for most non-melee character, but certainly not worth it - you will be expending modpacks and maybe even traits specifically to get your character able to, and your reward is a melee weapon and some experience! For ranged characters with juggler I'd not-worth-it . Without juggler it's awful! For melee characters it's incredible.
- The vaults - For about the last 10 runs, the only items I've carried out of the vaults (WITH key) have been ammo boxes. Maybe it's bad luck? The lack of health here makes it situational.

Not worth it
- City of Skulls - Huge ammo drain, and the reward you already collected from the wall! I for one think this level needs a better reward! The skulls are ok for the mortuary, but most BFG owners have other answers.
- Plains of torment - Pretty dangerous but nothing too taxing. Terrible, terrible rewards though. At least this one has supercharge!
- Spider's Lair - Absolute deathtrap. Nice reward (particularly the energy cell pack), but yeah, deathtrap.
- Mortuary - I clear corpses with skulls or the BFG, wait until I'm getting overrun, then homing phase to the nuclear BFG, bunker in the corner until all cover is destroyed, then bunker in the closeby corner until all the cover is destroyed there too. After that, sometimes I manage to clear the level. I die here a lot, certainly more than anywhere else.

I know this is an old topic, but since it's near the top of the list of threads, I figured you might like a little input!
I've found that most of the corpse disposal in the difficult part of a nightmare run involves doors, and this in turn kinda boosts rapid fire or pistol weapons since they finish a monster without knocking its corpse out of the door!
I totally get what you're saying. I guess after a while I got used to enjoying the nightmare 100% play style, but it's very different from the core gameplay!
I guess a part of me likes how corpse disposal nerfs shotguns a little. I will add, though, that waiting on the spot consumes the vast majority of turns on any difficulty in ideal play, and by vast I mean vast: 95%+.

I couldn't disagree more with the notion that juggler is not useful in the early game. Even without stacking shotguns and using mousewheel, it's still one of the very best early game traits.
In fact, considering I usually play on nightmare going for angelics, finesse-juggler is often my beeline at the very start. I totally agree with your opinions about master traits, and more often than not I finish masterless, but juggler, for me, is the prime example of a reason not to go for master traits!

This run was truly magnificent!  Thanks so much for sharing!

I think I picked the third level of EE without any thought. By that time I was powerful enough, and waasn't really paying any attention to the level up screen - I just wanted to get through the last few levels. To be honest the second level of EE was probably not needed, and cateye would have bee far more useful if I needed a more powerful marine, which might have been key had I rolled the mortuary!
The lack of a firestorm hyperblaster was a big shame yeah! I think I might have added the tech mod before killing the shamblers. I really wanted every advantage I couuld manage for those 2 guys!

Juggler was incredibly strong early game. I don't think I would have managed the arena without that pile of 6 shotguns in my inventory for juggling, but I don't know, when I don't get juggler first the damage of the chaingun is very noticeably higher.

Which angelic badges do you have? I kinda know which ones are 'in reach' right now, and I'm betting it's a lot like the ones you have.

Discussion / Re: Doomrl Guide
« on: May 02, 2019, 10:17 »
As long as we're talking about artifacts from older versions, the "monsters clump in the center of the map" thing was patched out in one of the later versions. I can confirm they don't do it anymore in Nice guide, though. I'm learning a lot. The shooting through doors thing is blowing my mind.

They don't do it as much, but I still feel they do so. Try sitting in the corner of the level on something big like 'ciity of skulls', and just see how many thousands of turns pass by without you being disturbed.

great run, pretty sure shamblers do respawn on nightmare
Yep, you're right. Just had to kill on of the bleeders like 4 times over!!

Thanks for the wishes!

I just remembered a question that came up as I played this - do shamblers respawn on N! ?
I know the arena halts corpse generation, and often, other bosses like the arena master don't regenerate. I did this run assuming that everything that wasn't an arch vile could respawn - I'm guessing that the lava elemental might not, but I haven't had a chance to test this and can't find info anywhere.
OK, simply put, which monsters drop a corpse, but *don't* respawn on nightmare?

Hey! Figured I'd post here as it's my first angelic since returning/starting a new player.wad

Thoughts -
Finished the arena with no medpacks left. I've found this pretty normal for standard N! games.
Chained court went really badly, with both berserk packs being destroyed by barons, and I finished the level again out of medpacks, after having to tank the arena master with a chainfire chaingun.
Anomoly went well, but I used tons of rockets to destroy corpses/
Phobos lab seemed much easier than I remember it. I was hugely prepared with running mode strategies, but ultimately almost waltzed through. I didn't, because carelessness near the end lost me 2 large medkits to furmer humans - a mistake I'll not make again.
Deimos Lab: I fudged a little, and lost my agility boots standing in acid, which is why the tactical boots were so delayed in this run. Still, managed to finish this without too much trouble. 2 shambles are ridiculously scary (I'm assuming they respawn too if corpsed?), but luckily having a stack of 12 overcharged plasma rifles and juggler stops them from being too much of a tall order!
Cathedral: AoD was defeated with HR:2 and Finesse-3. An unmodified chainsaw made him easy work,but I did use both hatred skulls to hasten the task. Looking back I might have been better saving them for Mort/Limbo.
Lumbo: Despite using the hyperblaster, and regularly juggling to the scythe, I had major ammo issues this run. I had to do a good cell farm on every available level in hell to keep myself in cells. I had an extremely tricky time in limbo, at one point having to rely on rockets as my only weapon while I fought my way to the cover on the left, after which I could clear out all the N! cacodemons, then open the right bridge, and camp in the left cover until I got a N! Arachnotron to farm. I'm convinced that, had I rolled the mortuary, I wouldn't have completed it. This is despite entering limbo absolutely armed to the teeth with about 6 stacks of energy cells.
Lava pits was cleared using long-range nuclear BFG firing, and I had taken some really serious damage by the time I'd mapped the level and collected the extra environment suits. I think this is the level that makes me really miss a rocket launcher when I've been using missile launcher instead.
I was in two minds whether or not to fight carmac, but with decent armour, a few medkits, and an incredibly good trait build for hyperblasting, I went ahead. It took me 2 reloads. Had I realised there were 2 angelic medals up for grabs if I finished him I'd have certainly risked it. I wasn't so much playing for medals, as just to conquer N! 100%.

Demolition ammo combat pistol was an absolute gem! Total gift from above! It could just as easily have been a normal pistol, but I was lucky enough to spot a combat pistol in the armoury. I was unfortunate to get 2 firestorm packs in the armoury, but I was happy to get a win without onyx or nano. The corpse destruction of demolition ammo (or plasmatic shrapnel) is incredible on N!, and I kinda like how it stops the lack of onyx or nano from feeling like a rip off!

 DoomRL ( roguelike post-mortem character dump

 Sylph, level 18 Hell Baron Lt. Colonel Scout,
 nuked the Mastermind at the Hell Fortress.
 He survived 3425803 turns and scored 1067097 points.
 He played for 8 days, 22 hours, 44 minutes and 35 seconds.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 2626 out of 2626 hellspawn. (100%)
 This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 11
  Levels completed : 11

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Medal of Prejudice
  UAC Star (gold cluster)
  Aurora Medallion
  Explorer Badge
  Conqueror Badge
  Grim Reaper's Badge
  Hell Armorer Badge
  Hell Champion Medal
  Heroic Silver Badge
  UAC Platinum Badge
  Veteran Diamond Badge
  Veteran Angelic Badge
  Elite Platinum Badge
  Elite Diamond Badge
  Elite Angelic Badge
  Demonic Platinum Badge
  Reaper Platinum Badge
  Longinus Platinum Badge
  Longinus Diamond Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------


-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 29/60   Experience 181064/18
  ToHit Ranged +6  ToHit Melee +6  ToDmg Ranged +2  ToDmg Melee +2

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Ironman          (Level 1)
    Finesse          (Level 3)
    Hellrunner       (Level 3)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 2)
    Eagle Eye        (Level 3)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Triggerhappy     (Level 2)


-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   cerberus red armor [0/0] (69%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   hyperblaster (2d4)x3 [0/40] (T1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   tactical boots [0/0] (100%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nuclear BFG 9000 (8d6) [40/40]

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] double shotgun (10d3)x2 [2/2] (P1T1)
    [b] demolition combat pistol (5d2) [15/15]
    [c] minigun (1d6)x10 [200/200] (F1)
    [d] missile launcher (6d6) [4/4]
    [e] BFG 9000 (11d6) [100/100] (P1)
    [f] red armor [4/4] (196%) (B)
    [g] phaseshift armor [2/2] (121%) (B)
    [h] Angelic Armor [7/7] (100%)
    [i] Azrael's Scythe (9d9)
    [j] 10mm ammo (x140)
    [k] shotgun shell (x70)
    [l] rocket (x14)
    [m] power cell (x70)
    [n] power cell (x60)
    [o] small med-pack
    [p] small med-pack
    [q] homing phase device
    [r] power mod pack

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Acid       - internal 25%   torso 95%   feet 25% 
    Fire       - internal 25%   torso 95%   feet 25% 
    Plasma     - internal 0%    torso 50%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    321 former humans
    188 former sergeants
    147 former captains
    228 imps
    110 demons
    497 lost souls
    68 cacodemons
    36 hell knights
    92 barons of hell
    246 arachnotrons
    250 former commandos
    66 pain elementals
    108 revenants
    67 mancubi
    51 arch-viles
    16 nightmare imps
    20 nightmare cacodemons
    56 nightmare demons
    48 nightmare arachnotrons
    2 bruiser brothers
    2 shamblers
    1 lava elemental
    1 agony elemental
    1 Angel of Death
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind
    1 John Carmack
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  Entering level 2 he was almost dead...
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 7 he sneaked into the Phobos Lab.
  He broke through the lab.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Deimos Lab.
  On level 9 he assembled a hyperblaster!
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 10 he assembled a demolition ammo!
  On level 11 he arrived at the Containment Area.
  He emerged from the Containment Area victorious!
  On level 12 he found the City of Skulls.
  He wiped out the City of Skulls.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  On level 17 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 17 he found the Azrael's Scythe!
  He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 19 he assembled a tactical boots!
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  On level 19 he found the Frag Shotgun!
  He cracked the Vaults and cleared them out!
  On level 20 he was foolish enough to enter Limbo!
  On level 20 he found the Angelic Armor!
  He managed to clear Limbo from evil!
  On level 22 he entered the Lava Pits.
  He managed to clear the Lava Pits completely!
  On level 23 he assembled a cerberus armor!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  He nuked level 24!
  He defeated the Mastermind and found the TRUE EVIL!
  Then finally in Hell itself, he killed the final EVIL.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 The missile hits the cacodemon.
 You dodge! Boom!
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John
 Carmack. You are hit! You are hit! You are hit!
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John
 Carmack. John Carmack reloads his rocket launcher.
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. John Carmack
 dies. Congratulations! You defeated John Carmack! Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 109 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 90 of those were killed.
 And 7 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 12 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 6 killed the bitch and survived.
 6 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.


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