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General => Discussion => Topic started by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 11, 2006, 16:47

Title: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 11, 2006, 16:47
Okay, most of you read the topic, and were like "WHAT THE HELL?". Yes, I'd like to remind you that this is not a DoomRL-only forum ;]. I'm currently throwing around many ideas in my mind, one of them is for a small graphical game. I have made several restrictions to myself tough, mainly because of my lack of skills in many areas, but also due to constraining time needed to complete the given project.

Okay, so to all people that thought now "IS HE OUT OF HIS MIND?" I'd like to thank for reading this far :).

So one of the ideas is a space game. I also play around with ideas for a 4X strategy, or other pure strategies, but not in this post. I always wanted to make a space game centered around one spaceship. And although a Frontier-remake is among my dreams, a 3D combat simulator is unaviable to me as yet due to the lack of good 3D programming knowledge. That's why I thought I might go for 2D space combat.

That presents a challenge tough. IMHO the main problem with space games with combat mode is a repetetive and boring combat mode :). I'd like to avoid that as much as possible, especialy that the target idea of the game would involve having random combat encounters.

Can 2D space combat be not boring? Do you have any ideas how cold that look like? Please share!

P.S.1 - 2D means not "no 3D graphics" -- it means avoiding writing 3D collision detection, and 3D AI. Also it means that the interface should be fairly simple.

P.S.2 - Combat should rather be tactical, and should depend on ships configuration. Turn-based is also an option as is "SPACE - pause and give orders".

P.S.3 - The intended gameplay would be random, with missions/quests, and with a storyline.

P.S.4 - I don't say I'll work at it, I'm just looking for various ideas. DoomRL's development will be unaffected by any ideas that I have, for I wish to bring DoomRL to 1.0.0 before seriously devoting myself to any other project.

P.S.5 - I know that this post is a somehow risky test on my behalf, to see if the ASCII people here are willing to participate in brainstorming about a game of completely different type. If you feel offended by that, please ignore this topic :). I'm sorry :).

P.S.6 - Yes, I know about Star Control :-P.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Jered Cain on December 11, 2006, 18:37
I'll give my thoughts on the PSes first.  Pardon all the Star Trek game references.

P.S. 1 - So graphics like Star Trek Armada, which was a 3D RTS that was, for all intents and purposes, 2D.

P.S. 2 - Tactical and depending on configuration, like, oh, Starfleet command?  Also, pause-based like Baldur's Gate, I like it.

P.S. 3 - Random, with missions, and a storyline.  Hm.  Can we choose which missions out of a posting, perhaps?

P.S. 4 - Well, I'm giving my ideas here, so, blah.

P.S. 5 - No risk, no reward.  Go for it.

P.S. 6 - Good for you.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Derek on December 11, 2006, 18:46
No time right now to give the reply I'd like to give, but take a look at this game when you have the chance, Kornel:

http://www.shrapnelgames.com/digital_eel/Weird_worlds/1.htm (http://www.shrapnelgames.com/digital_eel/Weird_worlds/1.htm)

It's essentially what Star Control would be if turned into a 15-minute coffeebreak type game.  Although that may be giving the game a bit more credit than it's due, since it doesn't have the kind of charm that SC has, nor is it random enough to sustain my interest for very long.  But still!
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 11, 2006, 20:30
P.S. 3 - Random, with missions, and a storyline.  Hm.  Can we choose which missions out of a posting, perhaps?
Except for the combat and flight model it would be very simmilar to Elite/Frontier, but with a lot more interesting missions and global random plot.

No time right now to give the reply I'd like to give, but take a look at this game when you have the chance, Kornel:

Ok, I'll take a look at the demo when it downloads. I would be VERY interested in your full reply when you have the time tough :)
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Santiago Zapata on December 11, 2006, 21:23
Hope my ideas have a room here, and you find them useful

First off: Yes, the overall idea sounds nice... hope you can team with a good artist to complete the requirements for a game of this kind.

About 2D space combat.... I think it would be nice to have a squad and issue orders to your lancemates; different customizable spacecraft is a need, including different sized space fighters, heavy armed-highly maneuverable combat mecha, and possibly personal scale suits for emergency.

Also different kind of areas including asteroid fields, mined fields or areas near big mass bodies (space stations, orbitals, ringworlds, moons, planets) that affect the zero gravity environment making for more variation between fights.

A campaign schema over the fights where each combat you win or lose affects the overall status of the system is nice...

Cant think on anything more tonight... I am tired :P
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: DaEezT on December 12, 2006, 02:59
I'll use Master of Orion 2 as a reference here.
MoO2 was a 4X game and not centered around a monthership like Star Control, ships are just units but they could be configured.
You could give the player a monthership like in SC and make it possible for smaller combat ships to dock on it (like in SC) and make every ship configurable like in MoO2.
Combat would take place on a 2D playing field where the enemeis (ships/planets/spacestations) start on one end like in MoO2 and the player's mother ship starts on the other end and the player can deploy the docked fighters in a preparation phase prior to combat.
After that the combat would then be more or less identical to MoO2.

MoO 3 introduced real time combat with fleets and formations and even though it had 3D graphics the combat took place on a 2D map. But the whole fleet combat idea doesn't work if you want to make the game centered around 1 ship.

Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 12, 2006, 05:17
First off: Yes, the overall idea sounds nice... hope you can team with a good artist to complete the requirements for a game of this kind.
Some parts of the game will use 3D rendering, those I will do by myself. I will probably also need some 2D art, and here I will seek help :/.

Also different kind of areas including asteroid fields, mined fields or areas near big mass bodies (space stations, orbitals, ringworlds, moons, planets) that affect the zero gravity environment making for more variation between fights.
A campaign schema over the fights where each combat you win or lose affects the overall status of the system is nice...
Don't worry, for the "startegic/RPG" part I have tons of ideas. I'm confused only on the combat system :)
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Adral on December 12, 2006, 05:22
I am not really inspired right now, but I'll throw some suggestions of things you might want to take a look at.

From what I can take of your post, Kornel, maybe some kind of variant of a RL in space might do the trick. Tactical turn-based combat, potentially unlimited customization, etc. As I see it, perhaps some kind of Gearhead in space. Keep in mind that if you want to do graphics, you can add them. It just means you would make us ASCII people sad :P.

If you want to make something different from a RL, you might take inspiration from Flatspace. As far as I can remember, it's a real-time game with diifferent ships models, different ships configurations, random missions, and even trading capabilities. It has 3D models but 2D space, just what you were asking about.

And that's all for now. If I ever come with real ideas for your game, I'll post them :P.

Note1: link to the Gearhead page, for those who don't know it
 http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/gearhead/ (http://www.geocities.com/pyrrho12/programming/gearhead/)

Note2: link to Flatspace
http://www.cornutopia.co.uk/lif/ (http://www.cornutopia.co.uk/lif/)

EDIT: Meh, I didn't read that last post. I'll try to get some ideas for the combat part then:P
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Igor Savin on December 12, 2006, 09:12
I'll start up with references...

Couldn't resist temptation to sleep while playing "Weird Worlds". Horribly boring stuff.

I'd recommend two other games, first of which is one of my all-time coffee-break favs:

"Galactic Fighter"
http://members.fortunecity.com/beyond_eternity/

It has rather curious ship management system... simple yet captivating.


The second one is more of an epic adventure (think Star Control that relies on random content; less of an adventure, more of a strategy; great feel of "My ship, my fortress")

It's a classical game, but now it is in process of getting revived. Get both the game and the patch.

http://www.ironseed.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=5b72e5d4bd5e106b47c9bed6ad1bb7c4


And the last one, IMHO, absolutely the best in its' genre is Space Rangers 2. It's out in English already and you can find it over bittorrent; though it's something like 1 DVD large...

What it's all about:
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/space-rangers-2-dominators/697188p1.html

It has exactly the kind of combat you want - simple, fast and configuration-based.


Now for the combat ideas...
As a matter of fact, you don't really need battlefield for space combat. Imagine GearHead without terrain. It doesn't make any sense then; all that matters is the distance between you and your enemies; so all the movement you need is either "Advance" or "Retreat".

"UFO: Enemy Unknown" air combat is a good example of how "strategy-fuelled" combats should occur (the ones that are won or lost before all the shooting begins).

Of course, there should be additional twists to make things fun... Think DoomRL - of the most captivating interest there is uncertainity - you don't know will this lever heal you or kill you, what kind of a horrible monster awaits behind this or that door; is there some magnificent reward for you on this level. You simply never know until you try.

I wonder, how this might be achieved in space... Since you have no levers, no doors and no stuff floating around... it's all up to what appears in random encounter, and after you know what have you met, there's nothing more to be thrilled about - it's just one ship shooting into another ship till one of them blows up (MOO? Anybody remembers any *tactical* combat in MOO?).

You should take away that sense of certainity from the players. Make guns jam. Make crew go mad and start slaughtering each other for no apparent reason. Make weird aliens appear out of nowhere and begin destroying everything that moves. Force player to expect everything - at any moment - and give him ways to cope with it. Make each combat matter - like it is in DoomRL, where you can easily be reduced to 43% HP on the very first level with slim chances of survival on the second, if not careful.

But what are your instruments in such a game?..

First of all, I think there should be detailed scheme of ship systems. You can get all the important nodes damaged, from weapons and shields to lifesupport and engines. Divide you crew as you seem fit, repair one node over another, set the work mode (easy, normal, insane) - but look out for the morale.

Crew should be used not only for the repairs. Most probably they won't improve reloading times or maneuvrability... but they can help AC (point-defense turrets!).

Okay, I'm just throwing in random ideas, and not the ones you most probably need. I'll try to return back on topic.

Since there's nothing so special in open space, "external" view should be as simple as possible. Maybe some kind of a "chess board with spaceships". Main attention should be given to the internal part (how the ships are handled, what they consist of) - the more detail there will be, the better. I'd hate simple "HP over HP, Damage over Damage" bash.

In order to keep things fun, you can either make combats quick and furious (which is easier, and can actually work) or slow, full of well thought-about choices and long meditations... but this will need a complicated game mechanism (think wargames\board games).


...I'll write a follow-up post ASAP, where I'll try to be more specific...
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Igor Savin on December 12, 2006, 09:59
Now I'll try to move more slowly...

If we look at space combat, we should separate 3 main parts of it:

1) Moving around (ship interacts with environment).
2) Attacking (ship interacts with another ship).
3) Acting (ship interacts with itself).

As I have already said, Movement part isn't all that important or interesting in space. Maybe the only important (gameplay-wise) aspect of it is "tactics" setting like in DoomRL - you can choose between "Careful" and "Aggressive" styles of flight. Of course, there might be fuel, and it might be the part of tactics just as well - for an example, if fuel is expensive, it might be a valuable resouce which use should be strictly limited. Then you can have things like afterburners; and the "hellrunning" kind of dodge tactics enters new dimension (if you move, you spend fuel, but gain better chances of evading enemy attacks... save up fuel (guaranteed) or hull (unguaranteed)?)

Of course, you can spice things up with stuff like Nebulas that slow ships down, Blackholes that start sucking you in if you are passing by, Vortices that teleport you across the field, Meteorites that fly by, causing damage... Maybe even various rubbish do generate, including even shipwreck capsules, that might work like levers - there might be fuel, shield battery refill, or ticking bomb inside (or swarm of alien raider ships)...

Technical realisation is not important here. I fail to see how much will the choice between pixel-based or tile-based board will impact gameplay.


There's nothing special about Attacking as well. Weapon shoot, weapon hit or miss; if we're lucky, weapon heats up and jams. Ability to make called shots like in GearHead would be great. It might be interesting to make Star Control-like kind of weaponry, where guns are completely different, not only colour and damage wise. Something like Druuge's gun. Something like Chmmrm sentinels. Something like Thraddash afterburner.



It's Acting where we have the most freedom and are capable of inventing totally new stuff. Balance energy spending between shield recharge and laser build-up. Drug your crew for increased performance and risk of psyche problems. Mix up fuel with water - for economy with the price of damaged engines and reduced speed. Have your ship nodes modded by your engineer - for few more points of everything and chance of it suddenly breaking up in the time of need. Have your crew revolt and be subjugated - either bloodbathed, or bribed, or convinced (takes time - which may prove fatal in battle). Have your ship invaded (mini-game "DeadCold" included). Allocate your board CPU powers between Scanning, Targetting, Point-Defense Turret control, Repair, Crew Psychoanalysis and Treatment...
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 12, 2006, 10:31
Ok, I'll take a look at the references. But I took a look at Wierd Worlds and I see a way to use a similar combat system, and make it fun :).

Now for the combat ideas...
As a matter of fact, you don't really need battlefield for space combat. Imagine GearHead without terrain. It doesn't make any sense then; all that matters is the distance between you and your enemies; so all the movement you need is either "Advance" or "Retreat".
"UFO: Enemy Unknown" air combat is a good example of how "strategy-fuelled" combats should occur (the ones that are won or lost before all the shooting begins).
True, but it wasn't much exciting wasn't it? It was also meaningless almost -- you could judge by the look at it what would exactly happen. It had a big advantage tough -- it was fast. But it was way too deadly for a single ship game.

First of all, I think there should be detailed scheme of ship systems. You can get all the important nodes damaged, from weapons and shields to lifesupport and engines. Divide you crew as you seem fit, repair one node over another, set the work mode (easy, normal, insane) - but look out for the morale.
True, but we can't overcomplicate matters. One of the biggest things that made DoomRL successful was that it was very easy to learn. I want that in the space game too. But yes, I want multiple options. Here's the solution -- A basic ship that you get in the beginning doesn't have much controls. But the more upgrades you buy, the better computer you install on it, the bigger ship you buy, the more ways to influence combat you have. This way the interface complicates gradualy while the player learns the controls.

Okay, I'm just throwing in random ideas, and not the ones you most probably need. I'll try to return back on topic.
Quite on the contrary! -- I guess now most of the forum will finaly know WHY you are Chaoslord ranked ;].

the ships are handled, what they consist of) - the more detail there will be, the better. I'd hate simple "HP over HP, Damage over Damage" bash.
You forget about user friendlyness here. But as I wrote above -- there's a way to get around it :).

As I have already said, Movement part isn't all that important or interesting in space.
I can almost agree on that paragraph, except you forget about one vital aspect -- facing. Why is it important? Gun mountings -- startegy in space combat can be outmaneuvring your enemy by getting into the Arc of fire where he has the worst guns. On the other hand you try to get into a place where you can face the enemy with your main cannons. This would be especialy important in case of large, unmaneuvereable capital ships.

Of course, you can spice things up with stuff like Nebulas that slow ships down, Blackholes that start sucking you in if you are passing by, Vortices that teleport you across the field, Meteorites that fly by, causing damage... Maybe even various rubbish do generate, including even shipwreck capsules, that might work like levers - there might be fuel, shield battery refill, or ticking bomb inside (or swarm of alien raider ships)...
This is very unrealistic considering the scale of the fight. And although I take a lot of liberty in case of realism (like the fact that considering relativity of stadard space travel speed most ships would fire at eachother form distances where the ship couldn't even be one pixel sized) I'd like the game not to turn into a child's game-like. I will try to preserve some serious mood there ;].

There's nothing special about Attacking as well. Weapon shoot, weapon hit or miss; if we're lucky, weapon heats up and jams. Ability to make called shots like in GearHead would be great. It might be interesting to make Star Control-like kind of weaponry, where guns are completely different, not only colour and damage wise. Something like Druuge's gun. Something like Chmmrm sentinels. Something like Thraddash afterburner.
Agreed. But one aspect that needs to be remebered is that there are guns against capital ships, and guns against fighters.


It's Acting where we have the most freedom and are capable of inventing totally new stuff. Balance energy spending between shield recharge and laser build-up.
X-Wing FTW!

.... nothing less from the Igor I know ;].
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Igor Savin on December 12, 2006, 10:46
"Ok, I'll take a look at the references. But I took a look at Wierd Worlds and I see a way to use a similar combat system, and make it fun :)".

Hmm, it was Gombrowicz who said that he didn't learn as much from the classical literature, as he did from the bad one..

"True, but it wasn't much exciting wasn't it?"

Yeah, they barely happened.


"One of the biggest things that made DoomRL successful was that it was very easy to learn"

...to learn, but not to master!


"A basic ship that you get in the beginning doesn't have much controls. But the more upgrades you buy, the better computer you install on it, the bigger ship you buy, the more ways to influence combat you have"

Similar system worked well for GTA: SA, where "new features" were introduced as the plot moved on. Yes, that sounds like a good idea.


"I guess now most of the forum will finaly know WHY you are Chaoslord ranked ;]."

...since you can't resist my charming gaze!


"you forget about one vital aspect -- facing. Why is it important? Gun mountings -- startegy in space combat can be outmaneuvring your enemy by getting into the Arc of fire where he has the worst guns. On the other hand you try to get into a place where you can face the enemy with your main cannons. This would be especialy important in case of large, unmaneuvereable capital ships".

Hmmm... Remember GearHead? It did have facing system. Was it of any practical use? Most of the time it simply took one more keypress to shoot; and it never actually decided anything. Nothing more than a little annoyance.

Though capital ships change the picture radically... Will your game feature large-scale ships (think Star Destroyer vs. X-Wing)? They would benefit greatly from facing.


"I'd like the game not to turn into a child's game-like. I will try to preserve some serious mood there ;]"

Okay. Then we can have not all of them at the same time, but only one; sometimes.


"But one aspect that needs to be remebered is that there are guns against capital ships, and guns against fighters"

Will there be accuracy penalties for the first, and damage penalties for the second, or they will be simply unuseable?


"X-Wing FTW!"

You know my sources ;).
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 12, 2006, 10:51
It's great to have you back :D

Hmmm... Remember GearHead? It did have facing system. Was it of any practical use? Most of the time it simply took one more keypress to shoot; and it never actually decided anything. Nothing more than a little annoyance.
Yes because facing wasn't vital, and wasn't tactical. Here we will probably have realtime, and turning for a big ship will be slooow.

Though capital ships change the picture radically... Will your game feature large-scale ships (think Star Destroyer vs. X-Wing)? They would benefit greatly from facing.
Yes, that's the whole point. Although I don't want to go immidately large scale, I have to keep that in mind. Anyway the turning speed will be one advantage that small fighterlike-ships will have over big trader ships.

"But one aspect that needs to be remebered is that there are guns against capital ships, and guns against fighters"

Will there be accuracy penalties for the first, and damage penalties for the second, or they will be simply unuseable?
Try hitting a X-Wing with a turbolaser :).

"X-Wing FTW!"

You know my sources ;).

Being a GREAT fan of StarWars space-sims I could not let that pass :D.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Igor Savin on December 12, 2006, 11:00
"It's great to have you back :D"

It's great not to study Latin :-P


"Anyway the turning speed will be one advantage that small fighterlike-ships will have over big trader ships"

Will the control be mouse-driven like in WW? It won't be fun to constantly click, in order to keep your fighter's position in trader's weak spot, as he turns..


"Try hitting a X-Wing with a turbolaser :)."

Point taken.


"Being a GREAT fan of StarWars space-sims I could not let that pass :D."

Only "sims" ;)?

(what happened to that movie project of yours (ok, of your friends), btw?)
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 12, 2006, 11:06
Will the control be mouse-driven like in WW? It won't be fun to constantly click, in order to keep your fighter's position in trader's weak spot, as he turns..
Yeah, probably mouse-driven. But the interface part needs to be thought about. Anyway, you will usualy not be the fighter.

"Being a GREAT fan of StarWars space-sims I could not let that pass :D."

Only "sims" ;)?
Okay, okay, Jedi Knight series also :-P

(what happened to that movie project of yours (ok, of your friends), btw?)
Don't ask ^_^. They didn't have much motivation.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Karry on December 12, 2006, 12:12
Hmm...a turn-based space 2d random game centered on one ship ? Oh, a dumbed down Space Rangers clone ?
I dont think it could get any better than it already is by simplifying it.

But Weird Worlds is actually a wonderful game, that does exactly what it has to - fill coffee breaks.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Igor Savin on December 12, 2006, 15:16
But Weird Worlds is actually a wonderful game, that does exactly what it has to - fill coffee breaks.

Galactic Fighter is superior in every possible aspect.
It even looks better.
Almost ASCII.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Karry on December 13, 2006, 03:42
Quote
Galactic Fighter is superior in every possible aspect.
Yeah, except its not fun.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Aerton on December 13, 2006, 05:38
So, is it a turn-based game, not an arcade one??

What version of space fights do you envision? Ultra-large distances, where combat is about sensors, jammers and trajectory prediction to send missles that take long time to travel, pretty much like in a submarine? Or may be, Elite/StarWars/WWII colse dog-fights, where combat is about quick maneuvres, evading missles and aiming with a hull of your vessel? Or something in between, more like modern day air fights, where you either destroy something with a rocket before it got you on radar, or else you have to get close, outmaneuver the opponent and nail him with autocannons?

I'd like you to be clarify, because all of these are very different genres having almost nothing in common, save for a backstory.

P.S. To go with a fashion of posting references, look at the descriptions of combat models in EVE Online http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp (http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g26.asp) and http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g27.asp (http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g27.asp) (requires Flash).
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 13, 2006, 06:37
Actually I'm currently leaning on real-time combat with the ability to pause in any moment to change the orders. I would also give the player more a feeling of "Commander" than "Pilot" -- as the player will be ordering a bigger ship usualy (Freighter usualy). So combat will be more about choosing an approach, directing weapons, managing ships systems, and possibly giving orders to allies.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Malek Deneith on December 14, 2006, 05:25
Me 2 cents:
-definetly real time - turns just won't work out well
-graphics - as much as I like ASCII, this type of game needs graphics
-you might want to look at Transcendence (http://neurohack.com/transcendence/) - don't have an idea if there will be something that'll help, but who knows.... (and it is a fun game :) )
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Santiago Zapata on December 15, 2006, 07:00
I second the real time part, somehow, and as much as I like GearHead, turn based physics (like for example when you are on space, or running or rolling) dont catch :P
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: tekknej on December 18, 2006, 00:13
turns worked very well in Space Rangers 2. it heavilly depends on many other things in game mechanics.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Flap on December 18, 2006, 10:06
Here is an exemple of a turn based 2D space combat sim which I like :

Begin2 : A tactical starship simulation
http://hallert.net/misc/begin/begin.html

Here the link to a recent hack to play online :
http://begin2.sourceforge.net/

I also wrote a program to create semi random scenarii (that stuff is not online yet, but will come soon)

It is quite old, but simple and nice to play
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Obscillesk on December 21, 2006, 19:58
I'd like to point out for turn rates and gun-size effectiveness, EV Override/Nova are excellent games.  Very open ended 2d Space game.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: TFoN on December 24, 2006, 12:21
No-one seems to have mentioned Master of Orion (II). Turn-based and 2D. Just devide movement by 10 and it's rogue turns.

Edit: sorry, DaEezT did near the begining of the thread :) My bad.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: nokturnal on January 05, 2007, 00:35
turn-based combat was what made me throw SR2 in the trash.
since trading etc is kind of a slow part of such a game, i really like the combat to be more action-oriented. personally im dreaming of an elite with shmup style combat, randomized levels on planets etc..
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: TFoN on January 05, 2007, 09:57
EGA Trek! Ah, ah??! :P
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Styro on January 05, 2007, 13:39
You can also take a look at Critical Mass (windowsgames.co.uk) which has some good ideas. You control a squadron of ships and fly missions to earn medals, credits to buy better ships, and increase your rank.

The ships have components which can be damaged (engines, stealth, radar, etc). The movement is preprogrammed - you select where you want your ship to go and how many missiles to fire and click End Turn. Then all ships move and fire. Then you can issue new commands.

One downside is that you cannot upgrade your ship - you are just always buying new ones. You do not have any sort of skills that improve, just your ships get bigger. It would be nice to add a story and RPG elements to your character and also be able to upgrade specific parts of your ship instead of buying new ones.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: SharkD on January 18, 2007, 19:14
In case it hasn't been mentioned yet, there is Transcendence--a roguelike set in Outer Space. One thing it doesn't have that Elite did is an economy and trading.

http://neurohack.com/transcendence/

[edit]

Ooops. It was mentioned already.
Title: spaceships!!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 07, 2007, 10:58
One thing I'm a fan of is reasonably real physics.  Even in a 2D combat game, I like inertia to play a role.  Lasers wouldn't make the ship buckle, but missle impacts would, and mass drivers would affect your movement as well as the victim's.  You'd accelerate and decelerate, instead of constantly thrusting, and maybe how heavy your ship was and how decent your engines were would have a bearing on how fast you could go, and how easy it would be to change direction.

The complexity you're talking about, Kornel, reminds me of games of Starflight, where it was real time, but not too fast.  You'd pick tactical options, like which ship to fire your missles at, and your lasers would hit the target instantly although usually be less effective.

Were you thinking of a single pilot sort of game, or one with a crew, like a corvette-style ship?
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: torch on July 09, 2007, 05:58
First off, I haven't got the time to read this whole thread so my apologies if the topic has move too far from the original request or if anyone else has already suggested this. 

I have had a lot of fun with this 2D space combat, although you control a small squad of ships, I always got more enjoyment out of building one huge ship and doing everything myself.  The "turn based" style of plotting your next move and which missiles to fire, then playing out the next few seconds of action, then back to the thinking about the next move is tense and loads of fun. 

http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/critical.html
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Cora on July 09, 2007, 08:48
I'm(with a small team of 3 friends) now actualy working on smthing like space simulator. Main part of the game is physics, 3-D with collisions AND active parts. Let me describe:
if you have a ship with "Auto-hiding reverse engine", phys engine can open or close it. It seems to be overuse of physics, BUT if other pilot will shot them out, he'll not hurt your ship, but destroy your "blah-blah engines". Same with other parts, which can destroy enemy after YOUR explosion. Also lots of other stuff, like rocket box in the ship, heat from engines etc

Still work on the phys continues, because it still somewhat buggy, but already 3D))

game play will be in this game 2D (I think it'll hold battle heat better then 3d gameplay) but you can rotate your ship on "front-rear" line

(PS project C#)
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Daqin on November 28, 2007, 04:58
Hey there
I wonder of whatabouts of this idea. Is it still alive ?

I always wanted to make something like this and I have many combat systems in my notebook that came to my mind at that time. But I would prefer turn based system, somehow. I have some ideas in my mind. It would have simple interface, however many possible choices of crew skills, maneuvers and options. Crew would get new abilities with experience (and game could be very character oriented), for example:

if enginer can learn to perform, lets say, a Energy Discharge, then he can tranfer energy from guns to shield at any moment (this would work like interrupt in card games, so to every your action there could be reaction and vice versa) and in emergency save ship from some big damage that could occur.

These abilities (crew, commander-you, and ship has) would have cooldown and after performing there will be time in turns to make them available again (different for different abilities, some fast, some once per combat, etc), and they could have cost in energy or other things to perform (so maybe you would have to have some usable up equipment to perform them). So it would be very tactical in deciding what to use if you are not sure of skill (and abilities) of enemy crew, if they have some ship modifications (that allow performing this or that action) or what to hold in reserve, or simply how much energy spent on certain abilities. Many kinds of equipmemnt could also allow special actions,  like scanners to see what systems enemy ship has (what abilities, counter abilities can use against you etc), and all sorts of common stuff like ecm, jamming etc.
But the main thing would be what special abilties (with cooldown) different types of ships, crew and characters can perform. For example:

high level gunner could learn skill named, mmm, Deadly Aim (or whatever, heh..) that gives 75% chance for critical hit on enemy ship once per battle (or say, every 10 turns). Unfortunately, this could be countered by enemys ship special ability of Enhanced Armor which can make any crit hit a normal one. But luckily, you disabled possibility for special action on enemy ship with your Ion Gun shot... etc.

Add to this energy maintaining and allocation, and standard stats like weapons damage, shields, hull ond other. To simplify play you could in your turn mark to what counter abilities you give energy (so they could be automaticaly used in enemys turn) or what ability your crew prepare (which means that character can't do anything else this turn). So, in your turn you would just make few clicks..and thats all. Simple. And lots of tactics.

I don't know if you still want to that however
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Malek Deneith on November 29, 2007, 17:41
Is it still alive ?

Yes it is. As for more detail you'll have to wait until Kornel decides to unveil more - even people with access to all areas know little for now.
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Aerton on November 30, 2007, 07:56
even people with access to all areas know little for now.

Access to all areas? Hm, how about trying the torture chamber?
Title: Re: Request for Ideas : 2D combat in space
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 01, 2007, 09:43
even people with access to all areas know little for now.

Access to all areas? Hm, how about trying the torture chamber?

Omg! No, not DoomGirl again!