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Messages - Sereg

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Discussion / Re: How Dead is this Game?
« on: April 14, 2021, 22:09 »
Hey, who remembers me? :D I've lost count of how many years it's been at this point...

I was thinking of revisiting DoomRL today, and I was wondering about exactly this question. The answer is pretty much in line with my expectations (unfortunately).

It's pretty clear that the game's development is officially 100% dead at this point, but I'd love to see this childhood game of mine come alive and kicking again in some form. I was thinking, maybe it would be really awesome if a couple of hardcore fans from the old days were to band together and work on a complete rewrite of the game, in a language that's a little less archaic, and with all the references to IP protected content carefully stripped out and replaced with "close enough" alternatives, while leaving the core gameplay mechanics entirely untouched. (one big advantage that DoomRL has is that even though it has a Doom-like paint job, it does very much have its own identity in the way of gameplay mechanics...)

I develop software for a living these days (albeit business software, not games). Maybe this could be a fun spare time thing to work on if there's any interest...

I remember you.

I'd be on board with a rebuild in a more modern language, if there was enough interest - I'm pretty solid with Java(I've even done a few small roguelikes of my own in it, one of which I've posted on these forums), and I'd be reasonably comfortable working with Python or C# as well, if those turn out to be more preferable among the pool of potential developers.

It would also be nice to have Kornel's blessing, of course.

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you like regarding this.

I was always missing a few silvers, and I'm certain this was one of them. Congratulations on finding a solution.

Maybe I should go find the computer I last played DRL on and relocate my player profile somewhere more permanent - then maybe I can clean up some of my missing lower tier badges like this one.

Congratulations on the win. I haven't played much JH myself, unfortunately, but I do recall having a lot more difficulty even getting through the first few levels then I ever did with DRL - so a Medium win is still pretty impressive, at least to me. I really have to find some time for some JH soon, so I can offer some better commentary on threads like these - and maybe even make a few of my own - but it's always nice to see new mortems.

Best of luck on your future endeavors - sounds like you're making some good progress.

Always nice to see DRL mortems - especially ones with shiny badges, and yours has quite alot of those. I don't recall pulling off any of the Chessmaster medals myself.

AoI may not be quite as nasty as AoP, but it's definitely no joke - no safety net, so careful play is a must. Looks like you tailored your build well to the challenge. Congratulations on an impressive win!

Post Mortem / Re: [0.9.6|N!|AoC|Ma|YAVP] Diamond badge
« on: March 02, 2021, 17:52 »
Welcome to the forums - nice mortem to start it off.

Sadly I haven't had the time to keep up with JH lately, so I don't have any keen insights into your gameplay, but a Nightmare! win is always something to be proud of.

Discussion / Re: How Dead is this Game?
« on: February 12, 2021, 15:33 »
I still check in once in awhile.

I don't have the kind of free time these days to get involved with JH the way I did with DRL, unfortunately, but it's still interesting to see what others have been up to.

Hopefully I'll have some more time for JH some day, though.

DiabloRL / Re: Welcome to the DiabloRL board!
« on: January 11, 2021, 21:48 »
“That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die.” ― Howard Phillips Lovecraft

Discussion / Re: Another Journey to 100%
« on: July 24, 2020, 07:41 »
Ah, dammit, just when it was getting good, too...

I don't blame you, I'm very similar myself - which is why I've only just now popped back in after another long hiatus.

Pretty amazing Pacifist Angelic attempt there... I've never made it anywhere near that far myself. I think you're right though, the luck you need to complete that particular challenge is probably well above that required for anything else.

And not to tempt you as you're looking to the door, but what do you think of Speedrunner Angelic? Personally I believe it to be doable, and with a great deal less luck than Pacifist, but I suspect it would still take quite a lot of grinding to both build the right amount of intuition to play quickly enough to meet the time standard, as well as to land a run where that intuition would work out correctly for you in all critical situations.

Discussion / Re: Another Journey to 100%
« on: July 23, 2020, 03:11 »
Welcome back Icy, good to see you again... looks like you've made pretty incredible progress so far.

Got the really tough stuff left to go though - it'll be interesting to see how you handle it this time around, and if you can exceed your previous achievements.

Best of luck!

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 14, 2020, 13:30 »
You can count complexes from level messages, rather than relying on killcounts, which as you say are not indicative of total Cyberdemon presence. And as far as I know, no mortem exists for the type of game we were discussing, for which killcount would be as informative as possible for a single run.

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 12, 2020, 13:08 »
One quick comment on Radagast's run - note that his final killcount of Cyberdemons is 17, and he only missed one kill the entire game, meaning, at most there were only 18 on that floor, and he only claims 8-9 of them were present there(the rest were probably randomly wandering other levels, as they do on Ao100). Even those few apparently gave him almost too much trouble to prevail - and as you say, that's only a UV game. On N!, not only does the HP go up, but so do the numbers, and numbers continue to increase the deeper you find the complex... and this was about the earliest it's possible to find one.

While it certainly goes to show that there are ways to take down multiple cyberdemons at once even without immunity, I still have very strong doubts about the possibility of clearing a much larger complex of Nightmare! class cyberdemons without fire immunity. You are right that very careful research, or game knowledge, would be a huge help to such a run, allowing a player to prepare optimally for any situation they encounter(at least to the extent allowed by the RNG).

Papilio's ranking is certainly an interesting thread - do note that he lists challenges of higher difficulty(Strongman and Everyman come to mind), albeit not necessarily Luck and Skill, which have since been completed. I also do think that there's something to be said for experience and instinct over repeated Speedrunner attempts, and that grinding it long enough will eventually allow a victory. I'll concede, however, that he is definitely one of the best verifiable players this game has ever seen(behind only Tormuse in Angelics, and his Diamond count is actually even higher!), and I grant a lot of weight to his assessments here as a result.

One thing I strongly agree with him on is the Pacifism Angelic - which he rates at 30 luck and grind, and the same difficulty as Speedrunner. I'm pretty sure that if any Angelic badge is statistically impossible, it's this one, and I'd be hard-pressed to find a way to upgrade it to Archangelic level - I contend it's already there =P

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 11, 2020, 17:55 »
If you don't have the inquisitor's set by then? Yeah, pretty much =P Maybe on an easier difficulty, where you're very deep, well equipped, and highly talented before they appear, it could be doable by other means, but on a Nightmare! run where they can show up relatively early, trying to stay and fight is very likely to end the run.

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 10, 2020, 22:48 »
All valid points.

I remember at one point someone had posted a screenshot of a cyberdemon complex they encountered during an Ao100 run... it was nuts. There were 10 or more all on the screen at once in a circle around the player, with more on the way - like ih8regin said, they track down the player and they're literally everywhere on the level. I went looking for the screenshot, but wasn't able to find the mortem I saw it in, unfortunately.

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 08, 2020, 19:58 »
Actually, my mistake, I was using the N! number there, the earliest a nightmare arachnotron cave should appear (assuming I have the difficulty numbers right) is 46 on UV.  On N! they can start at 43.  Assuming the wiki is accurate, this difference isn't that big.  The real problem is that you have to be able to murder your way through a pile of nightmare arachnotrons by dungeon level 43 or so, and it's not immediately clear to me what the best way to do that is.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, without a lucky invulnerability globe on the previous floor, these would be incredibly dangerous, and I'm also not sure how I'd approach one.

Is there no way to avoid or limit the damage from them?  Shamblers and cyberdemons are huge HP sponges, but their burst damage potential is weaker than many normal enemies.  Is it the accumulation of damage or the burst that's the problem?  Why is fire immunity mandatory, as opposed to very high fire resistance being sufficient?
It's been a long time since I've played much, so maybe my memory is not quite perfectly accurate, but I recall shamblers as being very accurate and doing very high damage. Cyberdemons come in Complexes, not Caves, and they'll soon start to annihilate all the walls near you, exposing you to fire from more and more of them simultaneously and severely limiting your positioning options. It's not so much accumulation or burst as it is aggregation - once you have 5 or 6 of them firing at you every action, it's pretty easy to get one-shot, even if you could otherwise mitigate damage from a smaller number. And 5 or 6 is a low estimate of what you might be facing even on spawn, much less later on as they start to collapse on you. Fire Immunity is necessary for Cyberdemons because as I mentioned, they tear up the walls and you're soon under attack from absolutely stupid numbers of them every turn, while lava elementals, if memory serves, have a napalm effect, which will eventually leave you with nowhere on the level to stand that isn't fire.

A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be the best non-melee option, but any nanomanufacture high damage weapon would probably be sufficient with an appropriate build.  I don't think melee is required.

You are correct, nanoshrapnel is excellent for agony/pain elementals and lost souls, while other nanomachic weapons would certainly help. Of course, this does mean that, in addition to everywhere else on the run where luck is going to be key, you'll need to find a nano pack before your first agony cave. Not impossible, certainly, but by no means a given.

FWIW I encountered two late-game Nightmare Demon caves this game and cleared both of them without any significant trouble.  Having the Jackhammer helped, but I suspect any build with sufficient shotgun firepower could manage.
Jackhammer was actually probably a lot more clutch there than you think - most other shotguns don't have the same potential for AoE knockback even in a single firing, and nothing else offers multiple bursts prior to a reload. A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be helpful here, but offers far less damage per shot(meaning both less killing potential and less knockback), putting you in severe danger of being surrounded and overwhelmed. However, you make a valid point - with proper positioning and a reasonably powerful shotgun build, they might not be run-ending.

Gambler's ruin is definitely the problem I would absolutely be worried about, though I think horrible normal levels should also be on the list.  (Elite formers feature prominently in my nightmares.)
Yeah, I have a feeling this would be the true death of any attempt at such a mortem. Even with excellent luck for hundreds of levels, most attempts will eventually encounter a situation that can't be survived while maintaining the 100% killcount. I can't imagine many people would have the persistence to keep at this one long enough to complete it, especially considering the very high difficulty of even getting such a run started, and the overwhelming tedium and time investment required by the full N! clears.

I wouldn't go quite that far, I think the Speedrun Angelic is outright impossible ;).  This one is merely almost impossible.

Actually, I suspect Speedrun is quite doable. I've never been much of a speedrunner at any game, and I managed an 8:07 N! win on graphical mode after a relatively small number of attempts. Granted, that's still less than half the speed demanded by the badge, but I think that if someone were to dedicate enough time and practice to speedruns, they'd eventually get a set of floors that was winnable in that time. A big part of that is building up the instinct needed to react almost instantly to various situations, and then have that instinct be correct during the winnable run. In any case, while the number of attempts to achieve this would certainly be higher than for Centurial Archangelic, the time cost per failed attempt is, by definition, almost insignificant.

Now, if we want to create a Speedrun Challenge worthy of an Archangelic Badge, might I suggest Compet-n Silver Cross on N! Ao100? ;)

Of course, if we insist on Archangelic Badges requiring Archangel challenge games, then Compet-n Silver is probably out of the running - maybe N! AAo666 in under three hours?

Either one is about 3-4 floors a minute(18 seconds per floor for Ao100, or 16 seconds per floor for AAo666), which is slightly more lenient than the current Speedrunner Angelic - the extra challenge comes from the lack of exploitable special floors, and the marathon grind(note that the slowest actual award, Compet-n Silver, would require a pace of 22.2 floors per minute, or about 2.7 seconds per floor[!], which I suspect is well and truly outside of the realm of possibility - probably even for an optimal AI, at least in a number of attempts that could be made in anything approaching a human lifespan).

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum
« on: April 08, 2020, 15:15 »
I encountered the nightmare arachnotron cave on 47, which is close to as early as it's possible to get one.  (43, if I'm reading the wiki correctly and its information is up to date, I haven't looked at the code for this section myself.)  I killed about one half arc of arachnotrons before I had to flee, and I assumed that part of this was because of my newness and relative incompetence.  (I ran out of plasma cells because of bad ammo management, my weapons and traits weren't particularly optimized, I didn't have back up armor for when the energy shield fell apart, and so on.)  The rest of it was that I wasn't actually committed to fighting it out: rather than standing and fighting where I'd landed, I wasted some actions moving to the up stairs, which were in an open area in the center of the cavern.  If I'd wanted to maximize my odds of clearing it, I would have tried to find reduce the damage I was taking at the cost of maybe not making it out.  Because of this, I'd assumed that nightmare arachnotron caves would be more tractable for a stronger character played by someone with more experience expecting to fight it out.

Even if I hadn't made these choices and mistakes, for a much stronger character, nightmare arachnotron caves are still likely death?

Not necessarily - but on N!, they spawn earlier and with larger numbers of enemies than on U. And as I mentioned, there are worse types of caves that can also spawn - I mentioned Shamblers and Cyberdemons, which are both worse than even Nightmare Arachnotrons. Lava and Agony Elemental Caves are also possible, and without fire immunity, Cyberdemons and Lava Elementals are all but certain death. Agony Elementals aren't quite so deadly, but clearing them with ammo is almost impossible, and clearing them with melee can be extremely painful - I don't think I'd want to try it without Vampire, which imposes some rather problematic restrictions on your build path. There are also Nightmare Demon caves, which are an absolute atrocity to survive, much less clear. Also bear in mind that such levels can spawn back to back, or at least near enough together to preclude fully recovering supplies expended on a previous level.

Ultimately, the point I was making is that there are a hell of a lot of ways to end an AAo666 run, especially on Nightmare!, and a lot of those ways are out of your control as a player - if you get a bad level/spawn, you need to flee or die, and a prospective YAAM run prevents fleeing, leaving only death as an option.

While I certainly still believe it's within the realm of possibility, I think it's easily more challenging than almost any Angelic badge in existence - certainly it's a big step farther than the associated Angelic badge, Centurial Angelic. If it were an actual challenge, I'd call it Archangelic Centurial - but of course, we don't need such a category when only a handful of players can even touch the ordinary Angelics =P

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