Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: wisnoskij on April 16, 2012, 06:32
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So I have been looking around the forums for a little while and have seen the strategy for The Wall explained a few times in very little detail.
Apparently, with a Rocket Launcher and a moderately high number of rockets (heard 30) anyone should be able to beat The Wall with no damage taken.
Yes I can get into a rhythm and kill a few of the monsters with the rocket launcher (knock them back, reloaded, they appear at edge of vision, repeat), with at least minimal damage taken. I have even gotten close to using up my 3 stacks of rockets and still had no luck.
But sooner rather then latter it always ends up with multiple coming at me from slightly different angles, I miss a shot and suddenly I am surrounded and getting 3+ hell missiles lobbed at me per turn (sometimes I even just miss a few times in a row for a single demon and that is enough for him to get close and do a lot or damage).
I have even played with newly acquired invulnerability, and even killing most of them right off the bat it is impossible (it only gets more challenging the further back the demons are).
Am playing with a combat shotgun and Fin+Fin+TaN+TaN, on the second difficulty tier.
(note: have actually had more luck with the combat shotgun instead of the rocket launcher, but still quite far away from a victory)
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I usually take on the Wall using shotguns. Tactical shotgun is preferable, but combat or double shotgun (or both, especially with shell box), works too. In any case, the secret is cornershooting.
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I'm using rocket launcher only to destroy the wall. Then maybe a couple rockets to Barons (if I spam rockets I end up destroying goodies). I think it's safer to use rockets just for opening, then hide behind the corner and corner shoot with shotgun (and then chaingun, if you have the build).
Here's Game Hunter's guide to the Wall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfT8pjxeS8M - 0.9.9.3, but it's helpful.
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TaN is a a very weak trait for late-game enemies, as knocking off one or two points of damage is a poor substitute for being able to efficiently kill enemies. I personally use a chaingun for the Wall, or a plasma rifle if I have one. It's more precise, and I'm not crippled by the enemies' armor.
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Thanks Klear, I will try that more.
The corner shooting does seem to work pretty well, it just seem that eventually they keep coming and I do not have enough time to reload and refill on health.
As for Tactical Shotty, I have not been getting very many mods in last few playthroughs.
The Double Shotty suggestion surprises me. Doesn't the DS do far less damage far away then the combat (and starting to shoot them far away seems like a useful strategy). Also if you play right hopefully you are in multiple small battles allowing you to reload fully in-between. Not that I do not wish that I had one in the prepared slot for close encounters.
Does the shell box help in reloading somehow? Everything I have read seems to say that it is just a larger stack of ammo. So nice, but easily replaced by having an inventory full of smaller stacks.
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Does the shell box help in reloading somehow? Everything I have read seems to say that it is just a larger stack of ammo. So nice, but easily replaced by having an inventory full of smaller stacks.
Shell boxes (and all other ammo boxes) allow you to reload a weapon that uses them at a fifth of their original reload time.
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1.Break the Wall either on top or bot.Ideally passage should be with a width of 3-4 tiles and 1-2 tiles enter from enemies side.
2.Wait until smth appears, hide behind the corner.Cornershoot it to death.Destroy corpse if desired.
3.Repeat until everything is dead.Collect undamaged loot.
That's how i do it.If passage is good, then no healing is required.
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I think Shell Box reduces reload time. And I think double shooty is a good idea. First you scout with combat/tactical, and when they get close, swap to double and finish them off. It will deal good damage.
So:
1.
........ // yay spam combat shooty!
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2.
....B... // oh no, he's close! <swap to double shooty>
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3.
..%.... // oh noes, he's so dead!
###@
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As for TaN, I am following a build I found in the only strategy guide I could find "DoomRL (un)Official Strategy Guide By Thomas Parasiuk".
I had heard about specific builds, thought they were the solution to dying all the time so I have been trying them, to little success.
Offensive Shotgun build:
Fin->Fin->TaN->TaN->Bad->Iro->Iro->Iro
Have you ever tried Hell’s Arena with finesse two and a combat shotgun? It’s the easiest thing in the
world. And if you make a tactical shotgun like described earlier, finesse 2 will make you a walking
death machine. However, without MAD you won’t deal as much damage to end-game enemies and
if you go for reloader (then MAD) instead of ironman, they’re going to kill you a fair bit easier.
Note that anything with really high armour will just laugh off your tactical shotgun attacks, so a
micro launcher (Rocket Launcher + Tech + Tech) or missile launcher (Get it from behind The Wall) is
recommended for Barons that happen to pick up red armour, Viles and bosses.
I have to admit, it does not seem to be making playing any easier (but I have not gotten far with it).
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Warning - while you were typing 4 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
I guess most if not all the contents of this post are already ninja'd but I'll post it anyway =)
I'm using rocket launcher only to destroy the wall. Then maybe a couple rockets to Barons (if I spam rockets I end up destroying goodies). I think it's safer to use rockets just for opening, then hide behind the corner and corner shoot with shotgun (and then chaingun, if you have the build).
This. I learned not to rely on the launcher after destroying the precious backpack a few times. I thought that one missed rocket is still safe, but the barons tend to open the doors leading to the goodies and somehow my rockets always manage to squeeze there and wreak havoc with the reward.
Another tip is to make a small alcove using a single rocket a few tiles below the hole (or above, depending on where you make it). That way you have somewhere to retreat and continue cornershooting if the knights/barons get dangerously close.
To answer your post:
I used to play a lot of AoHu games where you get one of each mod from start, so I could always mod the combat shotty if I found it. I tend to forget that isn't the case in every game. The combat shotty should be enough, though.
The DS does little damage at greater ranges, that is why you should wait until the enemies get close and then shoot it. It's got a lot of knockback though which should give you enough time to reload and do it again. So shoot with the combat shotty while they are far and once they close, switch to double and knock them back. By that time they should have only little health left and should fall to another almsot point-blank DS blast, I think.
Shell box (and other such items, such as ammo chains) indeed help with reloading - if you have it equipped in your prepared slot, reloading will take only 1/5th of the time it would normally take.
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Thanks everyone, I think part of my problem was starting off with the rocket launcher and the switching to the shotty latter (because the initial rocket killings would inevitably widen the hole).
Is there a way to force a gun to use a ammo box instead of a normal stack then, because while I have carried around multiple ammo boxes I do not think I have ever used one (seems to default to the normal ammo).
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Another tip is to make a small alcove using a single rocket a few tiles below the hole (or above, depending on where you make it). That way you have somewhere to retreat and continue cornershooting if the knights/barons get dangerously close.
Like.
Shell box (and other such items, such as ammo chains) indeed help with reloading - if you have it equipped in your prepared slot, reloading will take only 1/5th of the time it would normally take.
OK, I think that answers my "how do you use ammo boxes" question.
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Is there a way to force a gun to use a ammo box instead of a normal stack then, because while I have carried around multiple ammo boxes I do not think I have ever used one (seems to default to the normal ammo).
You need to equip it as if it was a weapon. It will be automatically placed in your prepared slot (you can never have an ammo box as your primary weapon, obviously). Any realoads of the correct type will then by automatically taken from the ammo box, with the exception of reloads on the move provided by shottyman, which will still take from your regular ammo reserves as long as you have any. If you want to remove the ammo box from your prepared slot, you need to to it from the (e)quipment screen.
There is no other way to take ammo from the boxes, except (U)nloading them, which converts them into standard ammo stacks (the box and all the advantages it brings will be lost if you do).
Edit: Selfninja'd!
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As for TaN, I am following a build I found in the only strategy guide I could find "DoomRL (un)Official Strategy Guide By Thomas Parasiuk".
I had heard about specific builds, thought they were the solution to dying all the time so I have been trying them, to little success.
I have to admit, it does not seem to be making playing any easier (but I have not gotten far with it).
I'm pretty sure that guide is super old. Just sayin'.
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It seems that last update was for 0.9.9.3, no idea what has changed since then gameplay wise.
But I was able to get past The Wall using the tips here, thanks everyone. I now have a tactical shotty, missile launcher (with a sniper upgrade), an elephant gun, and lots of ammo and health.
The game seems a lot easier after I got past that initial hump.
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missile launcher (with a sniper upgrade)
but the missile launcher already has +10 accuracy! so unless you find a second pack to negate the out-of-fov penalty it's useless.
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but the missile launcher already has +10 accuracy! so unless you find a second pack to negate the out-of-fov penalty it's useless.
Probably should of checked that, I was missing so much with the original rocket launcher and it was teh onyl gun that would accept it (and I needed space).
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A great mod for the missile launcher is the nano mod. Finally a way to make a lot of carnage without worrying about rocket supplies.
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Strategy for the wall? Hmmm...
I usually blow a whole in the wall at either the top or bottom sections with the rocket launcher and then use a combination of corner shooting, running backwards, bad language, and praying to god.
I use the rocket launcher in hopes that the enemy will bunch together. Plus the blow back gives me time to reload before they enter firing range. I'd recommend slapping a mod to your launcher to give you an edge. Typically, the rocket launcher is the strongest weapon in my inventory at the time I reach the wall.
And you know what sucks? Blasting through the hordes and discovering that one of your strays went and blew up the valuable goods on the other side of the stage. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
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All my cornershots seem to push the wrong way, and even strafing with Shottyman, I take more damage than I do using rockets and chainguns [possibly because HNTR is too rough for me]. Can we get a rapid-fire newbie strategy on here? I'll start, but I make no promises about it being remotely good.
I'm fond of using rockets there, but I never have enough. Throwing an accuracy mod into the rocket launcher isn't a waste just for The Wall [especially if you have Eagle Eye for a Scavenger build, and if you're an Ammochain Marine, you won't be doing crap with mods anyway], but that alone doesn't do enough to protect the Backpack and Launcher, so I've been carving the wall like this:
Edit, since my BBCode image didn't work: http://imgur.com/hc0IT
This was a little too high but worked out okay [on ITYTD!] -- you want to breach the middle at a diagonal so you have some wall left to absorb those deadly mid-zone rockets. Start almost one-third of the way up the wall [with just enough room for a safe shot] and fire diagonally.
Synopsis for Arena and Court: Get the Blue Armor and every last rocket out of the Arena. If possible, equip the armor only when you mod it in The Chained Court. Spend a rocket on the Arena Master if you want [but don't bother reloading it while he's alive, especially if you're a Marine and can easily berserk-Chainsaw him]. Keep the Chainsaw, and personally I'll take the Staff over a shotgun -- it's weak, but is an instant-use one-slot weapon that can finish off near-death enemies. Put one of the agility mods into the Rocket Launcher and the other into the Blue Armor [you need to be fast to line up good shots or drag them to the "safe" side of the wall]. Take off the Blue Armor, save it for The Wall. If you don't have a plasma rifle, don't hesitate to drop the Energy Cells if you need space for a third armor, another health pack, or anything else -- you'll get plenty of BFG chow later, and in backpacked stacks.
For The Wall: Blast the wall open at a diagonal so you have more sharp corners to hide behind while reloading and swapping guns. This should make it easier to get off diagonal or obstructed shots that won't endanger your goodies. If you get two or more acidic satyrs on you at once, try blasting one of them closer to you so you can chainsaw it. Chaingunning wounded ones should be easy, but make sure to wait a few turns, as stray shots could bring more in. Don't forget phasing and the staff.
Let me know if this is bad.
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I'm fond of using rockets there, but I never have enough.
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For The Wall: Blast the wall open at a diagonal so you have more sharp corners to hide behind while reloading and swapping guns.
I usally take a shotgun to the wall, but the chaingun strategy is actually the same (take SOB instead of REL). However, both (excessively) using rockets and going for the diagonal strike me as bad ideas.
If you blast a straight line through, at either the top or bottom, you'll have 1 incredibly big corner to hide behind. In your image, the nearest cover is at least 4 steps away and you have very poor view of what's going on behind the wall, causing you to only see the knights when they are likely to be too close for comfort.
Once you have your tunnel, step into it a bit, and a) get to the opposite corner and use a rocket (in a direction as vertical as possible) or b) wait inside the tunnel until something shows itself, step out of its view and fire at it. You'll hear if you've hurt it, which is the sign for you to retreat around your big corner and cornershoot it with the chaingun.
Alternatively, simply take 1 shotgun and a stack of shells, since radarshooting is reeeeeally easy with it, allowing you to lure everything to your cherished corner.
In my experience the rocket launcher has done more bad than good at the Wall (except for blasting through it of course), and if you have the right skills to handle either the chaingun or the shotgun, it's really easy if you don't rush into it and draw the knights away from the main area.
[EDIT] Take another look at your image. Chances are very good that you can't find a position where you can fire at enemies without being in the line of fire yourself: if you go to the bottom, you'll be in full view of both knights if you want to maintain a position from which to fire; if you go to the top, the only way you are going to be able to hit something without getting seen is when the rightmost knight moves south at least once. If he heads dead east, you won't be getting a shot in until it's on top of you.
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Can we get a rapid-fire newbie strategy on here?
Shotguns until you a.) have your master trait or b.) find a good rapidfire weapon. Shotguns like Rel(2), so it's how I lead up to mAC. Cateye, on the other hand, can pretty much do as it pleases; masterless can take Eagle Eye; no one uses Entrenchment.
and if you're an Ammochain Marine, you won't be doing crap with mods anyway]
Dunno about anyone else, but almost all of my mAC marines wind up with WK(2). They like hyperblasters and super-modded plasma rifles as much as the next guy, and Fin(2) or (3) turns you into a blender.
Synopsis for Arena and Court:
Even if you are a melee class, I wouldn't put Marines above other classes in the run-forward-and-chainsaw strategy for the Arena Master, especially as he's so easy to piss off and drag back to a safe spot to corner-shoot. I'd actually recommend A-modding your boots and saving the other for a rainy day. Or a plasma rifle. Or I suppose an assault weapon, if you really wanted.
Also, I don't think the staff is instant-use.
I like trying to zig-zag (sort of, it's more of a gentle twist) a tunnel through The Wall near the top, though it's a little hard to practice, especially as I'm usually not thinking about it when I hit The Wall. Done right, you could have your first corner for poking a shotgun around, your first fallback once they're mad and you can wait for them to start filing around the corner, and then the near side of the Wall to run behind if you're really screwed and need a few seconds. Rapid-fire builds should also probably pick up several spare loaded guns if you can't reload very fast.
Alternatively, what LuckyDee said. Never underestimate the shotgun's power to make demons angry.
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Also, if the wall (or any special level for that matter) gives you trouble, feel free to skip it. In time you'll get better and can tackle it without a problem.
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Tested on HNTR just now, worked on the first try [not counting the previous game, which gave me zero items, and I died in the Arena]. Only went through one armor and a small health pack -- I was slightly lucky, but keeping them in knockback was a breeze, even though there were two Barons and two Knights right on the other side when I punched through the wall. I only fell back on the chaingun when I knew the next rocket would put one into mortally wounded or almost dead. I would have brought a shotgun to help lure them, but I'm one level away from Ammochain and have a lot of goodies [which just got a lot easier to carry]. I second the zigzag/carefully sculpted passage idea, if you have the rockets for it -- and my "start from the bottom with barely enough room" passage is a bit too low unless you have enough rockets to shape the walls a little more comfortably.
I'm not gonna up and say this works on higher difficulties, but I'm satisfied. Thanks folks.
About modules: I'd mod boots, but I never find them this early. And there was a problem with my last WK(2) mAC that got me deeply irritated with Whizkid -- I couldn't make any decent items, even when I got the mods for them, the item would reject the mods. I don't know what's going on there.
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Also, if the wall (or any special level for that matter) gives you trouble, feel free to skip it.
What is this heresy?! >:O
I used to not bother carrying a double shotgun, but lately I've been using it more, and it's really nice when corner shooting at the Wall. If something gets too close, just knock it back several squares and go back to the regular shotgun (or lucky combat shotgun). Corner-shooting with the chaingun can also kill the hell knights decently if you have some trigger happy or eagle eye levels, but the barons aren't so easy.
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if you have the rockets for it
hell's arena
And there was a problem with my last WK(2) mAC that got me deeply irritated with Whizkid -- I couldn't make any decent items, even when I got the mods for them, the item would reject the mods. I don't know what's going on there.
Don't let a single failure discourage you.
Armor and boots cannot be modded twice with the same mod unless it will create an assembly. Weapons cannot be modded more than three times with most mods.
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Posting here just to complain that Hell's Arena in Angel of Light Travel gives you superfluous ammo boxes when it should give you a rocket launcher and rocket box.
Carry on!
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Just out of curiosity, how is one supposed to get through the wall on AoMr/Sh? Because maybe I would like to do it on a regular run on one of those Ao's. Plus the backpack would be a major boon. Note that I'm not asking for help with the enemies themselves, just the wall itself.
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Phase devices and supplication to the RNG.
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Or the Anti-Freak Jackal.
Or four wave packs.
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If one baron was spawned on the other side of the wall you could get it to blast through the wall for you. Maybe this is how the level should be changed for future versions.
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AoMr ways: Anti-Freak Jackal, blaster(but you need to deal at least 13 damage to overcome armor,so P-mod + SoG3 + lots of time), energy pistol(again at least 13 damage), demolition pistol.
AoSh ways: plasma shotgun, plasmatic shrapnel assembly.
Shockwave packs, hellwave, phases.
Remember that you also need to leave the level, so at least two phases.
Now that i think about it, the easiest is probably to assemble energy pistol on AoMr.Start with tech mode, win arena, find one more P-mod, take WK1 and SoG3, stock on cells, as you need A LOT to carve your path.
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There's also AoB. Winning the arena gives you a homing phase, so you only need to find a standard one and be lucky. I was lucky once, but the barons got me unfortunately.
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I didn't mention AoB because there's no unique way to destroy wall on AoB.Spear's altfire is good, but you don't have spear at that point :)
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Winning the arena gives you a homing phase
I had Laptop throw this at me as well, but I haven't found a single one so far (playing on HNTR). Higher difficulties maybe?
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I had Laptop throw this at me as well, but I haven't found a single one so far (playing on HNTR). Higher difficulties maybe?
Winning the arena on AoB.
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Do believe I tried that one as well... though I could have chickened out. Worth further investigation.
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A homing phase is the reward on AoB according to both wiki and my memory. Note that completing the arena is often quite tough.