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Messages - Icy

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"Soldier's Medal" is not amazing, but I can't really think of something better. I'll set it as "Invader's Medal" for now.

Regarding Thomas's Medal how about beating Angel of Humanity with 100% kills instead? If so, I wouldn't be opposed to letting it be mixed with any Dual-Angel challenge.

Regarding ammo rooms, how about letting Cell Boxes be 1% and Bullet Boxes be 4%?


I've updated the main posts to this point now.


This was a great run with no major time losses, and lots of great luck! There were many Berserk Packs, some Invulnerability, many floors with nearby stairs, and not too much issue with going through each floor. The other big time save was finding a nuke for a fast ending against the Spider Mastermind. Very satisfied with this time! I'm sure the spare 20 seconds would make Nightmare feasible...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Regarding Unexplored Star, that's a good point that Explorer Badge doesn't have a difficulty restriction. Let's go with no difficulty restriction for Unexplored Star too.

Regarding Every Soldier's Medal, I wouldn't be opposed to making it what Brick Silver Badge currently is. It would need a name change though since "Every Soldier" is used because of Angel of Humanity. How about "Soldier's Medal - Clear The Wall/Containment Area on Angel of Berserk, Angel of Marksmanship, or Angel of Shotgunnery"?

Regarding Thomas's Medal, if you prefer it switched with Everyman Platinum Badge, we can change them so that the proposed Thomas's Medal is completing Angel of Humanity on Ultra-Violence, and have Everyman Platinum Badge be unchanged with completing Angel of Humanity as a conqueror (except for now disallowing Dual-Angel games). My only suggestion is that Thomas's Medal would need to block Angel of Confidence and Angel of Overconfidence. I actually really like the idea of switching them because then Everyman Platinum Badge can block Dual-Angel challenges and be much more appropriately challenging, and it goes more canonically with Everyman Diamond Badge, which is the same but on Ultra-Violence.

Regarding ammo rooms, there are generated by rolling 1d3 + dlevel. 0-4 is Bullets, 5-10 is Shells, 11-12 is Rockets, and 13+ is Cells. What if instead of the dlevel formula, it was something like: 2% 1d2 Cell Boxes, 2% 1d2 Rocket Boxes, 3% 1d2 Shell Boxes, 3% 1d2 Bullet Boxes, 20% 1d3 + 2 Cells, 20% 1d3 + 2 Rockets, 25% 1d3 + 2 Shells, and 25% 1d3 + 2 Bullets? This would have some pretty wild impacts on the game with Cells being a fair bit harder to find with other weights overtaking the current 100% in deep floors, there would be more emphasis on ammo boxes being available (which may be hurting Reloader trait), and the early game could get wild with lucky ammo boxes.

Post Mortem / [M|AoOC|3%|YAFW] Full Win in 1:24 (with video)
« on: August 23, 2023, 19:38 »

While attempting a sub minute speedrun, I ended up getting a slightly slower full win here, beating JC and surviving in 1:24. I actually had a run prior to this that was 1:33 that had an immediate Trigun within vision at the start which also got me a full win.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Post Mortem / [M|AoOC|3%|YAVP] Win in 0:57 (with video)
« on: August 23, 2023, 19:35 »

Decided to do some speedrunning tonight and wanted to try to win a game under a minute and eventually got this run. It essentially devolves into close stairs, fast movement, and a lucky nuke somewhere.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Regarding Unexplored Star, if it didn't have a difficulty restriction, it would be possible to play on ITYTD, and even HTNR is pretty easy. That said, it couldn't hurt to have some easier new medals.

Regarding "Gatekeeper Angelic Badge", the Spider Mastermind is cake by using Intuition and cornershooting it to death. The AI stuck strat is useful when you don't have Intuition, such as for builds with it blocked, or a challenge like Everyman Angelic Badge. I think your suggestion would be way too easy for an Angelic Badge as there are a bunch of players who have done Elite + Veteran Angelic Badge combos without extensive difficulty. Gatekeeper Angelic Badge would really just devolve into finding Invulnerability on floor 7 nearby the exit, having Dodgemaster, and having Intuition.

Regarding Every Soldier's Medal, I can agree it could be replaced with a different idea. Got any good ones?

Regarding Thomas's Medal, I wouldn't be opposed to swapping it out either. Keep in mind though that Everyman Platinum Badge is suggested to be changed to simply completing Angel of Humanity on Ultra-Violence, so they're not the same if that goes through. I believe the medal is also designed after a player, so he might not be thrilled with it getting changed or removed.

Regarding ammo rooms, I agree. There are lots of ways this could be changed and weighted. I think that it should be prevented of giving Rockets or Cells too early though. Perhaps as a rare weight, they could also be mixed, and also include ammo boxes?

I was doing some thinking and realized my proposed time limit for Speedrunner Angelic Badge of 10 minutes would actually be a lot tighter for the potential new version with Scout's stair sense nerfed and Intuition also nerfed. If these changes go through, I think this badge should be 12 minutes.

Regarding the medal for clearing a boss floor, I think it depends on how well a game is going because generally when you get far enough that boss floors could start appearing, you should be pretty well-equipped. Nonetheless, if you think it would be hard, then I'd agree to have it. For the name, I considered something like "Boss Slayer Cross", but was wondering if it would be silly with the rhyming. I'm fine either or.

I like your medal idea for skipping all bonus floors, but I think it would require restrictions to be Ultra-Violence, and also not allowing Angel of Confidence, Angel of Overconfidence, Angel of 100, or Archangel of 666. How about we scrap my "Gambler's Star" idea (which thinking about it more would probably be pretty trivial), and go with yours with a name like "Unexplored Star"?

I also like your idea of changing Berserker Diamond Badge being Angel of Berserk on Nightmare with 60% kills to Angel of Berserk on Nightmare with the above medal.

Regarding Gatekeeper Badges, we can leave Platinum and Diamond as is and just change Gold. However, I disagree with the idea for Gatekeeper Angelic Badge as that would mostly just be Phobos Anomaly as Tower of Babel and Dis are pretty easy to clear without damage. I also think all Angelics should require winning the game and not just achieving something mid-game.

Regarding Hunter Platinum Badge, I'm still definitely for it. Not all cheese can be avoided, and if a player goes through the game thoroughly, they might not have to grind a respawn anyway.

Regarding the Apostle, I forgot he restores HP over time. I suppose you're right though that there should be some risk involved and also that camping would not be a good strategy most of the time (depending on what kind of a floor you get). I'm for both of your changes after thinking about it more.

I like your idea about Heroic Angelic Badge. Initially, I thought it would be too easy since most medals aren't too hard, but thinking about it more, 50 challenges of varying difficulty is still tough to do them all, and I didn't realize how few players had them all. To fit it into the 25 badge count, how about we scrap "Humanity Angelic Badge"? I think having only one Archangel Angelic Badge is a nicer look and that's the only challenge that has two at the moment.

Regarding number of badges, I wouldn't be opposed to 30 each. 26 is a weird number unless you're thinking of the alphabet. 25 is really nice with out glorious base 10 number system.

I can support keeping JC kill count to 50. Noting that 100 Cyberdemons is harder than 25 JCs if you mostly do full wins on standards games is a good counterpoint. I'd have to think about an Apostle kill count though.

Regarding my proposed Cyberdemon Cross medal, it is a good point that it could be very luck-based since they're very rare and it's common to go through Archangel of 666 without finding any. However, expanding it to various bosses does make it a bit too easy I think. It's also worth noting that there are no special level feeling messages for Agony Elementals and Lava Elementals (although this could be another feature to add). How about instead we have "Boss Slayer Medal - Clear a boss complex on Angel of 100 / Archangel of 666 on Ultra-Violence"?

I can agree with changing "Scavenger Medal" to "Technician Medal" and having it require all different assemblies.

We can scrap Purity Medal and Shottyman Medal as proposed. How about "Gambler's Star - Pull 100 levers or more in Angel of 100 / Archangel of 666", and "Vash's Cross - Kill the Spider Mastermind using Trigun's Angel Arm"?

Regarding UAC Cross, I think decreasing it to 2,500 kills would be fine. A player could get that in a standard game by farming kills, but I think it helps that it's not necessary to do.

For Brick Silver Badge, what if it were instead "Clear The Wall/Containment Area on Angel of Light Travel"? It would make it appropriately challenging by forcing the player to bring a Rocket Launcher and some Rockets, taking up a couple of precious inventory slots, followed by still needing room to clear it after.

Regarding Armorer series, yeah the idea of changing the Platinum and Diamond variants to "Collector" would be so it doesn't weirdly skip Gold.

Regarding Berserker Platinum Badge, I think the design of them for the individual angel challenges is to prevent stair-diving on the harder ones. All of them either require Nightmare, a high kill count, or some other restriction. That said, it would probably be one of the harder challenges to be doing stair-diving. I'd be fine with it simply being completing Angel of Berserk on Ultra-Violence and remove the kill count.

Regarding Scavenger Platinum and Diamond Badge, I forgot to consider the potential change that would prevent the Whisper of Death strategy. That would certainly make them both harder and annoying, so I'd be still on board with removing them to get the count down to 25 as suggested.

For Arena Diamond Badge, proposed changes for Hell's Arena would definitely impact its difficulty. Under v0.9.9.7 status, I think downgrading the difficulty to Ultra-Violence is reasonable, but depending on the changes to Hell's Arena, keeping it at Nightmare could also be fine as you suggested.

Regarding "Hunter Angelic Badge", I think your alternative proposal would be excellent.

Regarding Demonic Angelic Badge, fair point that it breaks the trend of keeping it on Nightmare difficulty. I think changing it to winning a standard game with 100% kills and less than 500 damage (Untouchable Badge) on Nightmare would be exceptionally difficult, but definitely possible, especially as you can skip bonus floors.

Part of my personal vision with Angelic Badges would be that top players should be able to achieve a large number of them if they have enough grit and committment to go for them, but it would most likely be too time-consuming to attempt all 25. It keeps the upper limit of the game open without being impossibly hard as it currently is. It could be really cool to see a dedicated god to the game chip away and get into the 20s. Alongside that, many different players could have different combinations in their collection, instead of right now devolving into getting Shotgunnery, then Lightfoot, then branching off a tiny bit from there, and then getting stuck.

For mortem colouring, I think it could be nice to have badges and medals colour-coded.

I like your suggestion of Gatekeeper Gold Badge. I'd say go with "Pass Phobos Anomaly without damage on HMP", since you wouldn't need to clear it.

Regarding Gatekeeper Platinum and Diamond Badges, I disagree with swapping them. Platinum with passing Phobos Anomaly without damage on Nightmare is basically just finding Invulnerability nearby on floor 7 and zipping through. Diamond with clearing it on Ultra-Violence and then also Tower of Babel is generally harder to do. However, it could be more canonical if Gatekeeper Badges didn't include Tower of Babel. What if Gatekeeper Diamond Badge was clearing Phobos Anomaly on Nightmare without taking damage?

I like your suggestion for Hunter Platinum Badge, although it likely will just turn into cheesing a respawn near the end of the game, but that's on the player if they decide to do that.

Regarding the Apostle, I do agree he's cake, but it would be pretty frustrating to grind through Angel of 100 / Archangel of 666 and then die to him. Especially with the suggested proposal of creating a guaranteed method of getting Dragonslayer and Berserker Armor in those games, players would become even more likely to fight the Apostle in that game type. Additionally, the architecture of the level stays in one piece, so him teleporting around means you can just camp until he finds you again, killing the Nightmare Demons and other enemies while waiting. I'd have to think about this suggestion more.


After this aspect of the game is figured out regarding new feature ideas, I'll make use of the 2nd post to compile everything, clear out mentions of badges and medals in the 1st post, and add other changes not directly related into the 1st post as well.

Below is a number of suggestions regarding badges, medals, and rankings:


I think a nice change could be having 25 of each badge for a nice rounded number, instead of 26. This includes Angelic Badges.

Likewise, I think it'd be nicer if there were 50 medals instead of 25.


Apostle in-game ranking requires 50 JC kills, which is fairly tedious and the point tends to get made fairly early on. It could be left as is to encourage it as a long-term goal, but I think in terms of grinding for rankings, 25 would be fine. I'm open to this being rejected though.

More intermediate rankings could be made to shrink the gaps and add more fun, but I'm personally indifferent.

Badge Rankings:

For each badge type, you only need 15 and can disregard the rest. I think requiring more of the previous badge types for further rankings would be a good change to encourage getting more of them. For example, have 1st Lieutenant require 18 Bronze badges, 12 Silver badges, and 3 Gold badges, have Captain require 21 Bronze Badges, 15 Silver badges, and 6 Gold badges, have Lieutenant General require 21 Gold Badges, 9 Platinum Badges, and 3 Diamond Badges, and so on.

If additional Angelic Badges are created, more rankings should be created for different amounts of those.

No-Life King should require all badges of all types. Technically right now, you can skip 11 of each type except Angelic.


Change the names of Explorer Badge, Conqueror Badge, Untouchable Badge, Grim Reaper's Badge, Angelic Badge, and Hell Armorer Badge so they don't sound like badges.

I think medals could be allowed to be earned using dual challenges and restrict dual challenges for a lot of badges instead. This can help keep them being different. I wouldn't be opposed to being more or being less strict on dual challenges for achievements though.

Many Medals are not earned if a higher version of them are earned, including Experience Medal, Hell Armorer Badge, Hell Champion Medal, and Grim Reaper's Badge. I think these should still be earned even if a harder medal type is earned.

Clarify that Malicious Knives Cross and Sunrise Fist require all kills to use the required restriction on weaponry, but don't require 100% kills.

Change Iron Skull to either 5,000 damage, or 2,000 damage but needing to win the game, as discussed previously.

Change Gambler's Shield to requiring 25 lever pulls, since 26 is a weird number.

Change Dervis' Medallion to getting 100% kills on Angel of 100 / Archangel of 100 so it's different than Centural Diamond Badge.

Thomas's Medal can be earned by being a "conqueror" on Angel of 100, which despite likely being harder, should be changed to restrict it.

New Medal Ideas:

Experience Token - Reach experience level 15 in a standard game.

Cyberdemon Cross - Enter and exit a Cyberdemon complex alive.

Aurora Star - Find 10 uniques or more (no game mode restrictions; mostly requires Angel of 100 or Archangel of 666 anyway).

Scavenger Medal - Create 15 or more assemblies (maybe require them to all be different too?).

Purity Medal - Kill JC on Angel of Purity.

Shottyman Medal - Win Angel of Shotgunnery with 100% kills.

UAC Cross - Kill 10,000 or more enemies.

This would bring everything to an even 50, and we can swap ideas around until we're happy with everything.


Heroic Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Diamond Badges - Change these values to 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, if we change the medal count to 50.

Bronze Badges:

Berserker Bronze Badge to Pacifist Bronze Badge - Disallow dual challenges.

Veteran Bronze Badge - Change this to requiring a standard game so that it's at least a bit different than Medal of Prejudice.

Speedrunner Bronze Badge - Change this to 40 minutes so that it's a little different than Compet-n Silver Cross.

Arena Bronze Badge - Change this to requiring a standard game so that it's at least a bit different than Hell Champion Medal.

If we want to go from 26 to 25, I'd say remove Scavenger Bronze Badge since it's extremely trivial.

Silver Badges:

Berserker Silver Badge to Pacifist Silver Badge - Disallow dual challenges.

Brick Silver Badge - This challenge is fairly annoying, but I personally like it and wanted to mention not changing it.

Lava Silver Badge - This challenge is also fairly annoying, and I personally don't like it. I'd say make this the Silver Badge to get scrapped to reduce the number to 25.

Gold Badges:

Berserker Gold Badge to Daredevil Gold Badge - Disallow dual challenges.

I would say for going from 26 to 25, remove Armorer Gold Badge (other associated changes below).

Platinum Badges:

Change Armorer Platinum Badge to requiring finding all exotics/uniques. Finding 1,000 either devolves into spamming Angel of Overconfidence games where you drop your starting gear, pick them up, then repeat, or alternatively with playing properly, finding duplicates of exotics and uniques within the same game still only counts as 1, so this is a massive grind of games to get to 1,000. Both methods are pretty unappealing. If for canonical reasons that having "Armorer X Badge" for each type except for Gold, we could change "Armorer Platinum/Diamond Badge" to something like Collector Platinum Badge and Collector Diamond Badge.

Berserker Platinum Badge to Everyman Platinum Badge - Disallow dual challenges.

Berserker Platinum Badge - This badge is fairly similar to Gargulec Cross. Maybe change it to no kill count required, but on Nightmare difficulty?

Lightfoot Platinum Badge - Change the in-game description to saying it requires Ultra-Violence.

Everyman Platinum Badge - Change this to complete Angel of Humanity on Ultra-Violence so that it's different than Thomas's Medal.

For going from 26 to 25, I would say remove Scavenger Platinum Badge since it's a bit silly and the optimal way to earn this is not so much by "luck", but by spamming Azrael's Scythe's Whisper of Death.

Diamond Badges:

Berserker Diamond Badge to Daredevil Diamond Badge - Disallow dual challenges.

Arena Diamond Badge - Change this to Ultra-Violence as this badge is significantly harder than every other Diamond Badge. This is the only one Papilio never earned and he seemingly gave up on it, despite earning most if not all of the other purely.

For going from 26 to 25, I would say remove Scavenger Diamond Badge for the same reasons as mentioned above.

Angelic Badges:

UAC Angelic Badge - I'd say change this to Ultra-Violence, maybe even Hurt Me Plenty, but keep it as a standard game and requiring damageless.

Strongman Angelic Badge - Change this to like, 75% kills. Nobody is actually killing nearly everything with just their Fists and are instead getting to the end and farming an enemy for kills. When doing so, I think the point is made at 75% instead of 90%, and can also open up a somewhat more realistic possibility of doing it without cheesing.

Speedrun Angelic Badge - Change this to 10 minutes to keep it really hard, or 12 to be a bit more obtainable. An excellent but realistic run could get to around 8:30-8:00, and faster than that starts to require miracles.

Demonic Angelic Badge - This is basically an open slot for a new idea lol. Maybe Archangel of 666 on Ultra-Violence with 100% kills?

Shottyman Angelic Badge - Change this to requiring 100% kills as it's by far the easiest Angelic Badge.

Eagerness Angelic Badge - Change this to 50% kills as there is no where close to enough time to getting 90% kills.

Inquisitor Angelic Badge - Change this to Ultra-Violence.

Pacifist Angelic Badge - Change this to Nightmare and remove the kill count requirement.

New Angelic Badge Ideas:

Destroyer Angelic Badge - Complete Angel of Max Carnage + Angel of 100 on Nightmare.

Hunter Angelic Badge - Complete Archangel of Darkness on Nightmare (assuming this gets added).

Daredevil Angelic Badge - Complete Angel of Overconfidence + Angel of Darkness on Nightmare with 100% kills.

(I realize we need to invent new prefixes at this point)

Humanity Angelic Badge - Complete Archangel of Humanity on Ultra-Violence with 100% kills.

Purist Angelic Badge - Complete Angel of Purity + Angel of Light Travel on Nightmare.

Carnage Angelic Badge - Complete Angel of Max Carnage + Angel of Masochism on Nightmare with 100% kills.

Apostle Angelic Badge - Kill the Apostle in a standard game on Nightmare.

Sunrise Angelic Badge - Complete Angel of 100 on Ultra-Violence with 100% kills using only Fists.

This list would bring the total Angelic Badge count to 25, but we can still make lots of changes if there are other ideas.

My responses:

Regarding the idea of Archangel of Darkness, I agree that 2.5x experience might be better since it is intended to be an ultra hard challenge. I think vision of 4 would be fitting.

I can agree with decreasing the volume on multi-hitting the same enemy.

Some more suggestions:

I think Bullet-Proof Vest should be buffed from 80% Bullet Resistance to 95%. This will make it a lot more truly "bullet-proof". It would help a bit for the highest rolls that you can get hit by and also give higher resistance when the armor gets damaged.

I think Environmental Boots should be changed from BPT to BBT. Because players will tend to gravitate to fluid immunity instead of fluid resistance, Environmental Boots harder ever get used. By making them BBB, they could be made separately from Cerberus Boots as an alternative, and create more use of Bulk Packs.

I think Combat Translocator being buffed from 10 Cells per shot to only 5 would help make it a lot more usable. It tends not to see a lot of use because if there are only a few enemies, they're probably avoidable and not very strong. If there are a lot of enemies, then you can't practically teleport them all away. I think allowing for more shots would help balance it on both ends.

My responses to your last 2 posts:

Regarding different challenges affecting Hell's Arena and dual-challenges, a simple solution would be letting the "harder" challenge take priority, instead of planning out every combination of challenge possible.

Regarding Angel of Death, alright I can lean into it, but definitely make it not possible to respawn, similar to Pain Elementals, Lava Elementals, and Cyberdemons.

Regarding Juggler and ammo boxes in case you misinterpreted, I mean to say that should it be possible to juggle ammo boxes in and out from inventory to the prepared slot as well?

Fair points regarding Ballistic Armor, and I'd be good with Duelist Armor only giving 60% Melee resistance.

The trap solution for City of Skulls would be a great change over having a lever. It would definitely balance it relative to Abyssal Plains by making it a fair bit harder.

I think I would be fine overall with Cyberdemons and Bruisers using items I suppose, but there definitely needs to be a healing cap with Med Packs for Cybedemons as you mentioned.

I like the idea of Tactical Set giving Dodgemaster since it would still not be overpowered, is easily outclassed by builds having Dodgemaster, and builds that have it blocked could then access Dodgemaster. The only concerns though is that it does heavily devolve the Cyberdemon fight to whether or not you have Dodgemaster, even if it already basically is.

Regarding the Gothic Set suggestion, I do think that Cerberus Gothic Armor and Cerberus Gothic Boots together could get to be a bit insanely powerful with +50% all resistances. Generally speaking once you're in position for a fight, you're not moving much anyway, and you become mostly invulnerable to everything. That said though, you wouldn't be able to stair dive with it, it does help add extra top tier items, and indirectly it would help some traits a lot, such as Entrenchment. Having to constantly cycle through inventory could ward off some excessive use of it, but might also just end up annoying players who want to play optimally. I'd lean towards yes with a bit of caution.

I'm not a fan of the toggle idea for Schematics as it seems slightly silly. Could it be possible to just simply let it be an additional item in the locked room that doesn't show up if you already have all the assemblies?

Regarding an in-game rankings, the two main things I'm hesistant about it are that the implementation of it may require some sort of login system so that the leaderboard isn't accidentally filled with multiple entries of the same player, and also so you can update yourself. The other thing is that it only takes 1 cheater to spoil the whole thing and it would likely devolve into a lot of headaches and drama. I thought I would bring it up for some extra opinions, but I'd actually lean against it. I think a simple forum thread might be better.

Regarding Technical Packs in armors, being limited to only one per armor is a good point that the values should be higher. 20% Melee/Bullet/Shrapnel and 10% Plasma/Acid/Fire would be a lot, but I suppose in the lens of Power Packs reducing 2 damage from each type, it doesn't seem as insane. Looking through the possible armors it could be applied to, I think it wouldn't lead to anything broken. We would just need to be sure that as a part of an assembly, it doesn't apply its resistances on top of the assembly itself, like how the other Mod Packs currently work.

For the idea of Archangel of Darkness, perhaps 3x experience is too much. Comparing to a standard game to Angel of Darkness, you get less vision, have to deal with respawns, and get 2x experience, and comparing Angel of Darkness to the suggested Archangel of Darkness, you would have a bit less vision. Triple experience is 1.5x relative to double, as opposed to double experience being 2x relative to single. Maybe if triple is too much, go with 2.5x experience? I think it could be a fun and interesting challenge, but it would definitely be very hard. Perhaps it would devolve a bit too far into needing luck to survive though.

For BFG9000, it naturally does 10d6, and Overcharge right now does 12d6 with double the radius. I think 10d12 with an average damage of 65 is not significant enough for killing Spider Mastermind or JC and shouldn't need a restriction. It also forces the player to bring it with them for about half the game. VBFG9000 would get to 10d16 with an average damage of 85, and Biggest Fucking Gun would get to 20d24 with an average damage of 250 (assuming that Overcharge doubles the damage dice). As you suggested in your previous post though, assembling Biggest Fucking Gun would be very rare, while VBFG9000 isn't too significantly stronger, so both should be fine for the final fights.

I personally disagree with the difficulty balancing. I think in terms of quality of life, having the hard part be early on is much better so that as you said, you don't lose a couple hours of player because of difficulty scaling. It also requires the player after succeeding through Phobos to not get nervous and choke, which can indirectly make Deimos and Hell a bit harder. That said though, it depends on the direction of where DoomRL should go. Being unrelentingly difficult can be appealing, and being harder towards the end is more progressive with difficulty. If the direction of the game were to go this way, I do agree that increasing the danger value would be the way to go.

I disagree with the idea of alternative reloads for rapid-fire weapons to preserve ammo. They are generally very strong weapons towards the end of the game, and ammo expenditure is a good balance for that. As mentioned, many also already have alternative reloads. Overcharging Plasma Rifles can be useful for situations on Nightmare where you can farm Former Commandos and burn through a collection of Plasma Rifles for tough enemies.

I agree with buffing the ammo count for Rocket Boxes.


I'll update the first post with this response and your most recent one sometime later.

Three more suggestions of mine:

Make Berserk truly permanent when wielding Dragonslayer. It currently is "permanent" by giving 10 million actions, but it could be possible to remove the effect by using enough Run->Wait. For the most part, you would need to intentionally do this to make it happen, but if you found it early in Archangel of 666 and play defensively, I could see it being possible. My suggestion is that in the code after the Berserk effect ends, check to see if the player is wielding Dragonslayer, and if so, add another 10 million actions. Granted, this is very nitpicky.

As a suggestion for overhauling Mega Buster, perhaps have it start in Bullet mode, allow alt fire to switch modes, and you have to collect and get to keep the other modes as you kill enemies. It would resemble Mega Man a lot more and could make it useful by being multi-purpose with damage types.

Maybe do something with Schematics? To be nitpicky, runs are not truly independent unless you have all assemblies unlocked from a previous game because otherwise, a Mod Pack may be replaced by Schematics instead. It's not at all a large deal, but does impact the spirit of run independence.


I spent some time looking through this sub-forum for other ideas from the past and found some good ones to share and discuss:

The Wall/Containment Area should open up after all enemies dead to prevent softlocking if you use a Phase Device.

Have a text colour change just before running mode wears off like power-up effects.

Creating a rankings ladder for all the various achievements. This might just be better as a community Google Sheet though and not everyone might care to be competitive in a single-player game. It would also take a lot of work to implement I would imagine. I myself am not a huge fan of it, but maybe other players would like it.

Colour-coded trait screen as seen here by Mader Levap:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Have Technical Mod Packs increase Melee/Bullet/Shrapnel resistance when used in armor (5%? 10%?) instead of knockback.

Create Archangel of Darkness which has even smaller vision, but triple experience.

Change BFG Overcharge since it's currently pretty useless and wasteful (needs discussion).

Add knockback and dodge modifiers to the stats screen.

I've updated the original post now to include all new ideas discussed and links to posts that are relevant to discussion for each of the suggestions.

My responses:

While Hell's Arena does give different rewards, I do think it would be out of place if it appeared on different floors just based on the challenge. Perhaps a better alternative would just be having different rewards and different enemies based on challenge? Planning out how Dual-Angel games work would be important though.

Regarding nuke floor counts, the number isn't really what impacts it, it's just simply the existence of the Trigun, whether the count is high or low. Nuking 15 in an Angel of 100 game could definitely be done without it, but it still definitely be easiest by waiting on finding a Trigun. However, the HP depletion would require finding many natural nukes, and then ideally spamming Angel Arm after to get the remaining count. I'm not opposed to the idea of making a medal regarding nuking a ton of floors on Angel of 100, just that the same strategy will be significantly more optimal than any other.

While the Cyberdemon was the final enemy before, the Angel of Death is still stronger than he is, and the big issue is the 10 armor, which does funnel builds towards needing something that can handle high armor, which is mostly plasma damage or piercing damage. I'd say if it were to be a reasonable enemy for those game, it would need something like 95 depth, 1 weight, and 40 danger. I'm not 100% opposed to it, but it would have to be done carefully so that it doesn't become too overpowering or forcing certain playstyles.

For the guaranteed Dragonslayer and Berserker Armor, maybe 100% kills UV could be fine so that it still requires some committed effort and skill to get. It would also help dilute farming easy kills. It may be good to have a check to prevent them from spawning if you already found them earlier naturally though.

I agree Juggler would lose a lot of power if it only worked with the prepared slot. I think easily allowing it to work with any weapon in your inventory would be nice for quality of life. What is your opinion on it functioning for ammo boxes?

Regarding your suggestion for Duelist Armor with making it have lots of melee resistance and no bullet or shrapnel resistance, I don't think it would be broken in Cerberus Armor (P), but I'd strongly argue that the trade-off for more melee resistance is far more valuable than bullet and shrapnel. Bullets generally don't do a whole lot of damage, even in the end-game, and with 2 protection and possibly some points in Tough as Nails, a lot of the damage can be reduced to 1 without any resistances. Shrapnel can be dangerous up close though, but it gets heavily reduced from decent range. With the melee resistance though, you can happily camp out enemies and not worry if they get adjacent to you. Overall, I'd be for the change to Duelist Armor and hope that nothing is being overlooked. It could also be pretty insane in just Ballistic Armor for a very low cost, but it could be argued that it'd be a waste.

Regarding your suggested buffs to Ballistic Armor, the main thing is it's super cheap and accessible to make, and while the fire resistance penalty is the trade-off for it, fire damage isn't as common in Phobos and even somewhat uncommon in Deimos except on the harder difficulties. I think raising all of melee, bullet, shrapnel, and fire resistances on it by 10% is too much without some other kind of cost to it.

Regarding Cybernetic Armor, fair point that it spawning in the bonus levels does take up an exotic mod pack slot. It should be fine then.

Regarding Sniper/Firestorm Packs on armors, fair point that Firestorm is used on some weapons for Demolition Ammo that can't normally appear on it. You can also argue that a Sniper Pack used for the only assembly being Shotguns is also already silly. Perhaps call the armor something like "Spelunker Armor". I do like the concepts of your suggested assembly outputs, but I'd want to avoid it becoming a slippery slope where all mod packs work on all items.

For difficulty between City of Skulls and Abyssal Plains, the big thing is that you can enter and exit City of Skulls with no worry of anything if you want to. Abyssal Plains also starts you off surrounded by strong enemies that you can't really hide from. City of Skulls is dangerous as you flip the switch, but you can often use various weapons to kill groups of Lost Souls and then chip away at whatever remains in your vision. That said, Abyssal Plains does already have quite a bit of extra useful items and ammo. I'm not sure how to fairly balance it since it can be a high variance level.

For avoiding softlocks in Mt. Erebus, another simple solution would be to just have an extra lever within each ring, although it might be a bit silly to have so many in there. Another idea is to just fill in the walls so you can't teleport in there and have enemies on all open tiles. This could technically be countered by spamming Azrael's Scythe with Whisper of Death though.

Regarding hunting enemies picking up items, there are a few situations that can become silly to deal with, such as Cyberdemons picking up Shielded Armor, Phaseshift Armor, and others that we're currently theorycrafting making. It could also be abused with giftdropping Necroarmor, Fireproof Armor, or Gothic Armor for the Tower of Babel fight. I'm still personally leaning on no overall, but not 100% against it.

Regarding trees, the only other thing that's important to consider is they can't be randomly generated or they might block important pathways. They would have to be preset in some way.

I agree on buffing Micro Launcher, and my intuitive suggestion would also be increasing firing speed. I think 0.5s would be fine to counteract the natural nerfs of it relative to regular Rocket Launchers.

For an idea for Double Chainsaw, what if the doubling of Chainsaw's 4d6 instead of 8d6 was 4d12? This would give it a very different damage output, and a Bulk Pack to finish the assembly would give it a pretty nice boost in power with 5d12?

I like the idea of switching Nightmare Archvile's damage from fire to plasma, just so long as it doesn't get too insane. I wouldn't go higher than 20d1.

I agree Lava Elemental is quite weak and increasing melee damage is a good way to counter it by avoiding the lava splashes. Perhaps just give it a higher teleportation chance? Or what if its splash radius was bumped up to 3 or even 4 instead?

I'll update the main post with all ideas once more players have a chance to throw ideas around and when I have more free time.

One suggestion I forgot to mention:

There is an exploit where Everyman Platinum Badge, Everyman Diamond Badge, and Thomas's Medal require completing Angel of Humanity as a conqueror, but you can combine this with Angel of 100 and earn them by simply beating the game as no bonus levels are generated. While I would argue this can actually be a harder way to earn these achievements, it's still an exploit that I think should be fixed.

My responses to Omega Tyrant:

I can agree with the powerup overlay. You can use the minimap to still see enemies and other things while powered up, but it can be awkward for sure. Note that doing this would also buff power-ups as you can see exactly what some items are if you have a Computer Map as well, such as mod packs across the level.

I agree with showing badges in postmortems that have been previously earned. Alternatively, exclude both badges and medals, but doing one and not the other is a bit odd to me.

I don't totally agree with having unlocked challenges right from the start since it is nice to let newbies progress more naturally, but I do like the toggle suggestion for it. While I do agree that most players are returning veterans, it's always good to be more accessible for new players. That said, starting with challenges unlocked probably isn't that huge of deal in confusing or deterring new players. Perhaps along with the toggle, have some method to direct new players to easier difficulties and standard games, but don't force it.

I like the idea of bumping medal count from 43. 50 is a nice even number, or 52 could also work to be exactly double the 26 of most badge types.

I like the idea of medals pertaining more to Angel of 100 and Archangel of 666, although they might need to be crafted thoughtfully so that they aren't confusing on how to earn, or one-dimensional in the way that Iron Skull is with Vampyre. Perhaps strictly having them say "Do X in Angel of 100" to force the idea would be good. I like your suggested ideas, although nuking 20 floors, like the Fallout medals, mostly devolves to finding Trigun.

Cycling through tilesets for Angel of 100 and Archangel of 666 sounds cool, so long as it doesn't have any other direct effects on gameplay. This might need to be adjusted slightly since lava doesn't really appear in Phobos for example, and certain level structures are also limited to certain tilesets like islands. Alternatively though, leaving it as is could make for more variety when playing through where deep into the game you encounter more large boxy levels like the early Phobos levels. Hell freezes might need to be adjusted as a level type.

I think more variety with fluids would be cool, although I do think too much water would make the game quite a bit easier, especially if you're playing a melee build and dealing with potential respawning. Maybe have them, but have the weights favor lava more, such as a 70% lava, 25% acid, 5% water split or something.

I'd lean against Angel of Death being a random spawn since it's significantly stronger than other "boss enemies" and is more similar to final bosses. It has more health than Cyberdemons, 2.5x the armor, and is quite a lot faster, just that the trade-off is it doesn't have any ranged attacks. It also would be a bit weird fighting it without melee attacks, and forcing that on the player would be pretty unbalanced. Most non-melee attacks would be doing only a few points of damage, meanwhile it has 410 HP on Ultra-Violence.

I disagree with guaranteed Berserker Armor and Dragonslayer spawning on Angel of 100 and Archangel of 666. While they don't always show up, they're not too exceptionally rare to find on a full 666 game, and in my experience I would find the pair more often than not. Granted, that does take some time to go through, but their mystique would be a bit watered down if they were easy access. With the pair of them guaranteed, it would also be easy to farm tons of kills under current circumstances. A 100% kill rate on HNTR is pretty easy too if you're patient.

I have no personal opinion regarding music slots.

I agree with allowing Juggler to easily swap around weapons from the inventory. One could argue that changing it so that it only works with the prepared slot is another good idea, but I don't think the trait is too overly powerful that this needs to be done. There is also an inventory trade-off with carrying extra weapons for instant swapping, particularly a pile of Shotguns on Nightmare difficulty in the early game.

I disagree and think Badass with removing health decay is very powerful. Since boosted health is hard to maintain, especially when using Run->Wait, giving yourself 50% and 100% more health is a huge safety net for making mistakes, receiving unlucky damage rolls, and making aggressive play when necessary. The difference between Badass x2 and Badass x0 can feel almost like immortality, so long as it's not one of the first traits you get. I do agree it's not amazing as a starting trait for Marines though, but if Marines are buffed in other ways, then it would be fine.

I like the idea of more common Pistols. Shotguns and Rapid-Fires both have a few each, but Pistols only have the basic Pistol. Magnum sounds like a cool idea.

I agree with increasing the weight of Chainsaw. I think a weight of 6 is a bit high for being a very strong weapon, especially when Ripper is fairly easy to make, or alternatively loading it up with Agility Packs if you don't have good accuracy. I'd say a weight of 5 and level generation of 9 or so.

I disagree with changing the weight of BFG9000 since when considering both it and Nuclear BFG, the sum of weights is 4 and both are absurdly powerful.

Medical Armor definitely needs some changes, and your suggestion is another possibility. I think like the suggested ideas for Medical Powerarmor that buffing the regeneration value to 50% health is good.

I think your idea for Duelist Armor could be good, but I'd have to spend a bit of time considering all possibilities. Cerberus Armor (P) with your suggestion would be arguably stronger than other current variants since most end-game enemies don't deal much bullet or shrapnel damage, and the extra melee resistance would be more appealing. It would also be a pretty insanely strong armor for early/middle games for melee builds, especially with its movement speed to help with charging enemies. I do agree that more variety for exotic armors would be good.

I think buffing Tower Shield with 200% durability and -30% movement speed could be good. The only hesitation I would have with that is since it can be obtained without Whizkid, it could make you insanely tanky with very little investment. I think it would be fine though.

Like Tower Shield, I think your buff suggestion to Ballistic Armor could be good, but definitely want to avoid making it too good since it's a basic assembly and only requires basic mod packs. Maybe take your suggested changes and also include -15% movement speed?

I like your suggestion for Cybernetic Armor, just keep in mind that it can be somewhat consistently obtained in Hell's Armory, so making it too good might make it broken. The armor being cursed does help balance out giving it a buff, and also indirectly buffs Technicians who can mod it while other classes can't and likely would be interested in it.

I agree with the buff to Necroarmor. Currently, players could use it tactically though by gift dropping it to sap away the health of an enemy, but it's definitely more used for the players themselves.

I like the ideas of your suggested armors with Sniper and Firestorm Packs, but I'm a bit split on if they should be usable for armors. First, what would be their inherent property if you have something like Green Armor (F)? Second, canonically, it seems a little silly to stick Sniper Packs on an armor. It can depend on your perspective though, whether you view it like attaching scopes to your armor, or if it's more like a computer chip or something. I do agree that more assemblies could make use of Sniper Packs and Firestorm Packs.

I'm uncertain what to suggest regarding the Missile Launcher for City of Skulls and Abyssal Plains. Maybe Napalm Launcher, although that might become a bit too strong for that point in the game. Semi-related, but I do think the difficulty between the two also needs to be adjusted.

I like the idea of swapping The Vaults and Unholy Cathedral, but I would need to think about it more.

I like the idea of adjusting enemies for The Vaults. The only thing with your proposal is you would have Barons on HNTR and UV, but not HMP, which would be a bit weird. I think changing it is good, but it'd need more discussion.

I kind of diagree with preventing getting stuck in Mt. Erebus as that's the risk you take from trying to cheese it. However, it should at least have a bit of a lava patch so that you can gracefully end your game and receive a proper ending instead of Ctrl-Qing.

Regarding changes to Nightmare Imps, Former Commandos, and Pain Elementals, I'd have to thoroughly think about them since adjusting enemies is a pretty fundamental part of the game.

I disagree with hunting enemies being able to use items as they would get absurdly powerful, but I do agree with fixing the coding logic for them. Note that a Cyberdemon wielding a Plasma Shield could survive nukes currently, and while you could just buff nuke damage, it's a good demonstration of how insane they would be.

I believe locked vaults is an older version or glitched and never existed as I have never encountered them. It could be an interesting idea.

I like the idea of a lever potentially restoring ammo, but it feels a bit silly as a concept. Maybe more specifically, have it drop a random small ammo pickup, similar to making enemies spawn around you, as opposed to directly reloading your weapon or something.

I sort of agree with your tree idea, just that enemies can get stuck and be dumb around them. For example, Former Humans in Phobos Base Entry will endlessly fire into them, to the point of expending all their ammo. I'm not sure how other AIs would interact with them.

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