Trog (one of if not the easiest god to please: killing things while praying is all you really need to do [though I sacrifice poisonous corpses on occasion as well], and not casting magic from memory is all you need to *not* do [why in the world would you make a troll magician in the first place??])
I tried it, but somehow couldn't get any liking to it. I still prefer ADOM :-)I like ADOM a LOT (damn, classes like a farmer or a blacksmith rule) , but the lack of normal shops and more villages and stuff is annoying me... it has many very nice elements and some very irritating drawbacks. Though it is pretty damn hard as well.
Great game... Deep Elf Reaver or Deep Elf Stalker.
/me kills Supernaut.
Bah... remember kiddies - if you ever get good item's it's only because RNG will kill you in the next couple of minutes
I tried it, but somehow couldn't get any liking to it. I still prefer ADOM :-)I like ADOM a LOT (damn, classes like a farmer or a blacksmith rule) , but the lack of normal shops and more villages and stuff is annoying me... it has many very nice elements and some very irritating drawbacks. Though it is pretty damn hard as well.
If only those classes were more playable and you could buy more stuff in different shops (sort of like in Angband, but i would like to see more villages) I'm sure i would stick to it for much longer time.
ADoM every class is playable, compared to...ADOM vs Crawl you say? Ok here are some points that i agree with. Take this, ADOM lovers!!! >>>>http://www.tripalot.com/roguelike/review.htm#adom (http://www.tripalot.com/roguelike/review.htm#adom)<<<
And there are normal shops, compared to...
Anyway, CRAWL. It makes a fine coffee break game, but normal people will never get very far, that privilege is reserved for game maniacs, like those who beat DooMRL on UV.
Umm...anyway, CRAWL. A game where a chosen class means nothing. A game where map generation code is one of the worst there is, and creating the ugliest and the most senseless labyrinths you can see in a game. A game that tells you NOTHING ! You have to look everything up in spoilers, just to be able to understand the system. A game where its pretty much impossible to create a stealth-based char. And dont get me started on the subject of Sigmund and player's ghosts...
ADoM is an infinitely more refined and pleasureable game than this sorry attempt at hardcore.
The problem with Crawl are the early levels, although this is being corrected step by step by their development team with Stone Soup variant. It's much easier to survive (for me, at least) in SS than in "normal" Crawl.Hey, when i started SS i have chosen a ghoul fighter and the first things i noticed were :
because many of his useful abillities can be used only with specific items which you probably don't get until dungeon 3rd or so.You dont make any sense. Dungeons are not numbered, so whats stopping you ?
2 villages? A shop with food rations only and a black market? And where am i supposed to sell items?Okay, so you dont want to sell items to black market. CRAWL : no villages ? nowhere to sell items ? most items are useless ? even ring of invisibility is absolutely damn useless ?
There's no difference in an assasin and a stalker?Nope.
No difference in playing style?Not really, no. The only difference in playing style is between "Fighter group" and "Mage group".
No difference between playing an Ice Elementalist and a Wizard, or a Warper?None that would actually matter.
No difference between a kobold assasin and a mummy necromancer?Not really. The only difference is that one starts with a spellbook. Thats all.
O'realy?Yeah, realy.
after many many tries you get really better at it, so that you really see your mistakes (if you ever thought that you dont make mistakes, and you always die because of unfair dungeons, come on, dont be ridiculous).Hmm, okay, i wasnt ridiculous in the first place, but whatever. The difference from ADoM is - there is always a way out in there. You get warned when you venture into some really dangerous places, there are usually some ways of fooling monsters, or means of escape, or something. In CRAWL - okay, you go around the corner on level 1 and meet face to face with an Ogre. Thats it. There is nothing you can do to it, and 99% of time you cant escape it. You're dead. Or you get killed with a dagger of electrocution on the same level 1. Still fair ? Or you find a jackal pack on the same level 1.
But unlike Adom every game is different, maybe because of no quests or something else... beside the replayability is Soooo damn high, so that even the difficulty don't mean a thing...Uh, whats so different about it ? Every game is the same. You go around killing things, there is nothing else, nothing to do, nothing to see, its just mindnumbingly plain and boring...
I agree with Supernaut, maybe a class doesn't mean "anything" (it does mean, in the early game, and some classes are MUCH easier than others, also keep in mind that your stats depend on your class, so it's important for the late game too), but race does mean, and a lot at that.Compare with ADoM, where race matters, and a class also matters. The choices you make at the start actually mean something.
The problem with Crawl are the early levels, although this is being corrected step by step by their development team with Stone Soup variant. It's much easier to survive (for me, at least) in SS than in "normal" Crawl.Hey, when i started SS i have chosen a ghoul fighter and the first things i noticed were :
This process will be continued a bit, but note that survivability is rather high now... The OOD monsters are not a bug.
1. All the dice rolls, to hit, and damage were shown, which greatly destroyed the whole pseudo realism in game
2. I played with some "Wizard mode" on but i cant configure it. When i "die" the game asks me "Do you want to die" or something like that...and man it is really annoying.
Anyone encountered those "problems"?
Hmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeons. And i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.Quotebecause many of his useful abillities can be used only with specific items which you probably don't get until dungeon 3rd or so.You dont make any sense. Dungeons are not numbered, so whats stopping you ?.
No need for villages in a game that is so fast paced as Crawl. The shop system is much like in Nethack, except that you cant sell anything (which eliminates the problem of cleaning out a dungeon from items and then selling them). Besides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;). And this works well in a fast paced roguelike with only 1 dungeon and shops without restock. Black market in AdoM gives you no gold for useful items, so there is no point in selling them. And besides Adom has some villages. It could as well have more than 2, if it has those quests, it would as well have more villages, more quests, more anything. Right now it is a weird mix of RPG and Roguelike game. I love some ideas that AdoM has implemented, but still i find it annoying in the long run, that the world isnt bigger than this. Many items in crawl are useless, or useless for your profession. But dont try to tell me that wands, and most rings or amulets are useless. It is just not true.Quote2 villages? A shop with food rations only and a black market? And where am i supposed to sell items?Okay, so you dont want to sell items to black market. CRAWL : no villages ? nowhere to sell items ? most items are useless ? even ring of invisibility is absolutely damn useless ? .
QuoteThere's no difference in an assasin and a stalker?Nope.QuoteNo difference in playing style?Not really, no. The only difference in playing style is between "Fighter group" and "Mage group".QuoteNo difference between playing an Ice Elementalist and a Wizard, or a Warper?None that would actually matter.QuoteNo difference between a kobold assasin and a mummy necromancer?Not really. The only difference is that one starts with a spellbook. Thats all.
I couldnt find one when i got swarmed by so called experienced jackals in the wilderness with a beastfighter (or what it is called)Quoteafter many many tries you get really better at it, so that you really see your mistakes (if you ever thought that you dont make mistakes, and you always die because of unfair dungeons, come on, dont be ridiculous).Hmm, okay, i wasnt ridiculous in the first place, but whatever. The difference from ADoM is - there is always a way out in there..
You get warned when you venture into some really dangerous placesWell, this is really helpful rofl.
there are usually some ways of fooling monsters, or means of escape, or something. In CRAWL - okay, you go around the corner on level 1 and meet face to face with an Ogre. Thats it. There is nothing you can do to it, and 99% of time you cant escape it. You're dead. Or you get killed with a dagger of electrocution on the same level 1. Still fair ? Or you find a jackal pack on the same level 1. .First of all 75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?
If that would be truth there would be no winners. And probably people would use only one, the most suitable class -- race combination. But, because they like variety, they choose different combinations.QuoteBut unlike Adom every game is different, maybe because of no quests or something else... beside the replayability is Soooo damn high, so that even the difficulty don't mean a thing...Uh, whats so different about it ? Every game is the same. You go around killing things, there is nothing else, nothing to do, nothing to see, its just mindnumbingly plain and boring... .
Actually, you said the same thing that Adral says. You probably didnt notice the brackets () ;)QuoteI agree with Supernaut, maybe a class doesn't mean "anything" (it does mean, in the early game, and some classes are MUCH easier than others, also keep in mind that your stats depend on your class, so it's important for the late game too), but race does mean, and a lot at that.Compare with ADoM, where race matters, and a class also matters. The choices you make at the start actually mean something.
It is funny how people can have such different opinions about games. For me, I really liked ADoM for a while, but then felt like it got too boring and repetitive. Primarily that is because the beginning game was pretty much the same each time I played. I stopped playing when the change got introduced that made creatures stronger that you kill a lot. When I had a really strong character killed by a bunch of Super Jackals On Steroids it was annoying to me.Yeah well... i always hated it.
And the reasons Karry gives for disliking Crawl are the very things that I like about it. I like the fact that choosing a starting class does not tie you in to a specific play style. If I want to play a Troll Fighter but then change my mind and turn it into a Troll Mage I can. I also like the fact that I gain experience in the things I use. I always thought it was strange in other games that I could kill tons of monsters with my sword and then when I gain a level, pick to cast spells or heal better. In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.That's actually not correct. Your troll will be a crap of a mage even if he manages to get that spellcasting point, he won;t be intelligent enough to learn the first spell (unless you put all ur stats into intelligence), and even if he does, he won't be good enough to cast it efficient (Which doesn't give you much, as at that point you really need the strongest means possible to kill creatures, and lvl 1 spell wont do much good). And that's again, how the class affects you.
I do miss the monster memory system that ADoM has. I think that it is great and would like to have that added to all roguelikes. I also really like the inventory system that Thomas Biskup uses.I actually miss the great monster DESCRIPTIONS!!!! That Adom has.
I actually miss the great monster DESCRIPTIONS!!!! That Adom has.
What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use). The idea of a rpg/roguelike game would be much better with more villages, and more shops and stuff.
Hmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeons.For what ? Nobody is forcing me to do things in any certain order.
And i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.This phrase only shows you dont really get the process of smithing in the first place. It is perfectly possible to find lots, and lots of ore right in the beginning, in certain places.
Besides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;).Thats because DooMRL is not an rpg, but an action game, therefore your point is moot.
Black market in AdoM gives you no gold for useful itemsAre we playing different games ? It gives you gold right off the bat, even more gold if you enter Thieves guild, and even more gold if you are the head of the Thieves guild.
If that would be truth there would be no winners.Well, what can i say, people are weird like that, they like boring games. Its like how usians have this love for Nascar, or hunting games. Stupid, but they are selling like gold.
First of all 75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?Uh-huh. Except it almost never works out. Potions turn out to be potions of degeneration or poison, scrolls of teleportation work with a huge delay and move you, like, 3-4 squares from where you were before, and wands heal your enemies. Jackal packs are a perfect example, because unless you are a troll or something, you cant kill 4-5 jackals one after another on level 1, and they are much faster than you are, so no escape either.
In Crawl, if you use a sword you get better with a sword.Well, at least they done ONE thing right.
In any case, to each his or her own. Everone likes different things and looks for different things when they play games. That is why having such a large variety of games available is a great thing.Sure. Except why dont all CRAWL fanatics pack up and get the hell out to their own newsgroup, instead of occupying the r.g.r.misc one. Like there is nothing in the world but CRAWL...
What i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use).They are perfectly usable as is. I personally have won the game twice with a farmer.
For what ? Nobody is forcing me to do things in any certain order. Still you do them in ur own order, you choose , what you do next, and that is exactly what i meant.QuoteHmmm but you come into dungeons in some order, dont you? For example first to carpenters dungeon, then to a dark hole, or whatever. This way you can surely number dungeons.
Very nice, but I dont like reading spoilers.QuoteAnd i didnt get any ignots in the 2 dungeons i was with my blacksmith, which was kinda...annoying.This phrase only shows you dont really get the process of smithing in the first place. It is perfectly possible to find lots, and lots of ore right in the beginning, in certain places.
DoomRl is a roguelike game, and not much of an action game. It doesnt have any features of an action game, unless you count being fast paced as being an action game. Damn, most roguelikes arent RPG games,as they dont have the plot which is important to RPG game, and normal RPG doesnt involve random dungeons, items and monsters.(´the one thing they have from RPG games is character development system. But thats the only one.). Only AdoM has actually a plot that evolves ( a little).QuoteBesides you dont have any shops in DoomRl but noone whines about it ;).Thats because DooMRL is not an rpg, but an action game, therefore your point is moot.
Counter Strike is selling a lot and people play it, and most people agree that its a great game, still im sure there are some weirdos that mean that Counter Strike sucks because it is too hard, and that it is very boring, so lets play chess.QuoteIf that would be truth there would be no winners.Well, what can i say, people are weird like that, they like boring games. Its like how usians have this love for Nascar, or hunting games. Stupid, but they are selling like gold.
I try all the new scrolls and potions on lvl 1 and 2 so i dont have such problems. Again, it shows that you didnt play the game enough. Wands can be easily tried out BEFORE you find the OOD monster. One jackal "pack" at lvl 1 usually counts 3 jackals, which arent that hard even for a mage. And once again, like TfoN said, in CRAWL you dont fight monsters that you are sure to lose to. Besides the great system in crawl is that you have plenty of stairs both up and down a dungeon. So if you happen to come down and be surrounded by 20 Ogres go up and come in with another entrance´. And this is only 1 way of escaping. I encountered a situation, when i teleport only 4 tiles away only 2 times. And its not hard to use them even with delay...QuoteFirst of all 75% of the time you didnt notice a potion, a scroll of teleportation, a wand or whatever else could help you. Thats normal, as there are shitloads of items in CRAWL . Jackal packs are a bad example cause they arent that hard to kill unless you are a weak or multi class (and that is again where class makes a huge difference) , and i have never met an ogre on level 1 (although it is possible) and i have played much over 200 games. I found a monster with a dagger of electrocution 2 times. Did you never went through level 1 ?Uh-huh. Except it almost never works out. Potions turn out to be potions of degeneration or poison, scrolls of teleportation work with a huge delay and move you, like, 3-4 squares from where you were before, and wands heal your enemies. Jackal packs are a perfect example, because unless you are a troll or something, you cant kill 4-5 jackals one after another on level 1, and they are much faster than you are, so no escape either.
My record was level 19 or 20, its way too hard for anyone after that. How do you call it, when you take a stairs down with a full health and die immediately on arrival, without a single chance to do anything at all ? Incredibly dumb, i say.
This is very pathetic. I thought it was newsgr. about roguelikes.QuoteIn any case, to each his or her own. Everone likes different things and looks for different things when they play games. That is why having such a large variety of games available is a great thing.Sure. Except why dont all CRAWL fanatics pack up and get the hell out to their own newsgroup, instead of occupying the r.g.r.misc one. Like there is nothing in the world but CRAWL...
Very nice. Because you think so doesnt mean you are right.QuoteWhat i would really like to see is skills like those of a blacksmith or farmer (very unique indeed), but tweaked in a way so that they could be usable (or at least easier to use).They are perfectly usable as is. I personally have won the game twice with a farmer.
After playing for some time you are almost sure which monsters you can beat with your class/race and which not, that becomes more intuitive :). You kinda get to know which monsters you can defeat with everything you have with ya.
Yeah, there's an issue with low dlvl/high monster lvl spawns. But that's rare, for the most part, and becomes mostly trivial if you give up on going head-on with every monster you meet, or taking the one class that you just can't play at your skill level. This game teaches you to run away when the risks are high. The problem's also balanced by often spawning great wands very early, which then work as a limited number of "problem solvers".
You were doing so well! OoSame reason for both - the weren't identified so i didn't knew what I had :(
If you were killed by a magic dart, then that potion of heal wounds would have more than saved you. And why weren't you wearing your ring of slaying?
Second, how do you get such a detailed char information after you die? I want to post every one i did (i had like 200 chars ;> )From the mortem.txt that is generated after every death - just remember that it gets overwritten after next death (note that this is the cease if you play offline - for online mortems folow Adral's instructions)
Same reason for both - the weren't identified so i didn't knew what I had :(Ah, sucks!
I managed to get a game that lasted longer than 2 and a half hours.. so far this is my best game yet! I know, compared to some I might suck, but the cool part is I think I'm actually getting better!This is really a great thing about CRAWL. You really improve with time!
You might want to take a look at Incursion (http://www.incursion-roguelike.net/) to see what's coming up in the roguelike world. Take a peek at the manual and "White paper" to see what it's striving to accomplish.;)
ToD HoG ET - translation, please? :)
Swamp confusion is nearly entirely avoidable through poison protection (exceptions mostly being unique spellcasters), so I wouldn't count that as an arbitrary death, at all.Unless it's the first time you enter the Swamp.
Elf Annihilators are so rare and location-specific, I wouldn't count those in, either. If you're going down the Elven Halls, you're either new to it, or well prepared.Exactly, unless you're new.
Wasps can certainly fit in, but not during the late-game. Wands can easily make short work of them.Unless you don't know how dangerous they are.
Unseen Horrors, however, I would count in the list, together with the damnable orange crystals, or whatever the acursed things are called. I lost a good Troll Berserker to one in two~ turns and, of course, couldn't escape.Well, the next time you play a low-INT character, you will put a higher priority on Clarity or Sustain Abilities.
Thanks.ToD HoG ET - translation, please? :)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Thanks.ToD HoG ET - translation, please? :)Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ah, I understood "arbitrary deaths" as deaths which are arbitrary *on a regular basis*. The way you describe them now, I mostly agree with you.
I had encountered that Statue before I had even found Clarity or Sustain Ability. It was, admittedly, the first time I saw the thing, but I wasn't given a way to deal with it, regardless.
Unseen Horrors, which are much more common, can kill you off quite easily on dlvl7-10, if you're a non-fighter who hasn't found See Invisible yet. Especially when they spawn on a cave-like, corridorless level. Fighters are only different in that they can take a few solid blows while waiting for teleportation to kick in.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
When it comes to Unseen Horrors, on the other hand, I somewhat disagree. Sure they can be a very large PITA, but if you're willing to blow a few potions of Heal Wounds, or even plain Healing, that can make a spellcaster hold out until the Teleport kicks in. If you are unfortunate enough that the teleport lands you within visual range of the UH again, though, you're SOL.Although teleportation and healing are obviously useful, these tend to fail me on too regular a basis (mostly by spawning badly). Obviously not always, as UH's aren't usually the end of my games, but they've made short work of many good chars of mine, and as I was later considering what I had done wrong, often no alternative path seems nearly airtight.
When I play casters on cave-levels, I tend to hug the walls. If I get an "It hits you!", I immediately reach for my closest source of digging and dig a tunnel into the wall so I have a corridor I can kill it in. Tactics from there on depends on what perishables I have access to and how many HP and how good defense I have.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)Spoiler (click to show/hide)
QuoteWhen it comes to Unseen Horrors, on the other hand, I somewhat disagree. Sure they can be a very large PITA, but if you're willing to blow a few potions of Heal Wounds, or even plain Healing, that can make a spellcaster hold out until the Teleport kicks in. If you are unfortunate enough that the teleport lands you within visual range of the UH again, though, you're SOL.Although teleportation and healing are obviously useful, these tend to fail me on too regular a basis (mostly by spawning badly). Obviously not always, as UH's aren't usually the end of my games, but they've made short work of many good chars of mine, and as I was later considering what I had done wrong, often no alternative path seems nearly airtight.
When I play casters on cave-levels, I tend to hug the walls. If I get an "It hits you!", I immediately reach for my closest source of digging and dig a tunnel into the wall so I have a corridor I can kill it in. Tactics from there on depends on what perishables I have access to and how many HP and how good defense I have.
The cave-dig system I hadn't considered much, however. Possibly because I can usually fend off an UH by the time I can dig, but either way, I'll be sticking to this one. Tnx.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Yeah, UHs are tricky with the escape from them being "airtight". There's the old standby of having poison resistance (well, or not. It works without also, but is more risky) and firing Poison Cloud or Evaporate at yourself so that the UH *has* to advance through it and thus becoming confused for long enough for the teleport to kick in. If your teleport puts you close to the UH, you should now know which direction it comes from and lay down more confuzzling clouds.Poison Cloud's another one where I'm likely to be able to deal with UHs easily by the time I have it, assuming I'm even practicing poison magic. Evaporate's a much easier spell, but it's also rather rare. Otherwise, I agree, and it's probably worth the risk even without poison protection.
Yeah, well... a Wand of Digging is gold. Finding one early makes many things easier, not only UHs, but I seldom learn the Dig spell except for the Hive (dig around the lake instead of flying over it) and Hellrunning (Magic Map, Dig, go down the stairs, repeat), and I skip it for those areas if I don't have Selective Amnesia - it is too slot-intensive for anywhere I don't have a particular and specific use for it. Wands are usually enough.I try to always learn Dig, as I tend to also keep pets, and I hate having them stuck behind a corner. Walking them out carefully costs valuable food. Vaporising walls makes that much less frequent an issue. There's also Recall, but it isn't as utilitary, and doesn't help me if I'm trying to make room for my pets in the midst of battle (or in preparation). Free digging's also great for Pandemonium, where some vaults require Dig to get through, and where there's a very good chance of being cornered by hordes of demons. Facing them one at a time's a life saver, mostly if a 5's blocking an Executioner.
Have you played a Demonspawn Chaos Knight of Makhleb yet?Khe he he, classic - most of my characters when I first started playing ToME were Demonspawn Chaos Knights of Makhleb :)
Heh that's funny, I play reavers most of the time, and I value their survivalability :)Then please do explain them to me! :)
Don't you mean Crawl?QuoteHave you played a Demonspawn Chaos Knight of Makhleb yet?Khe he he, classic - most of my characters when I first started playing ToME were Demonspawn Chaos Knights of Makhleb :)
I just never seem to get very far with them. I think it's a combination of "W00T, I AM TEH DEMON!!!" retardation mixed up with never running away, and never being hungry when there's a corpse readily available. (And good luck finding one when I am... grr.)Heheheh... Yeah, that's something to get through :P
Quote from: Malek on March 31, 2007, 17:46:07Yeah, Crawl... been playing too much ToME when I posted that and got it mixed up.
Quote
Have you played a Demonspawn Chaos Knight of Makhleb yet?
Khe he he, classic - most of my characters when I first started playing ToME were Demonspawn Chaos Knights of Makhleb :)
Don't you mean Crawl?
In that case, same here :) My first (and currently only) win is one.