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16
0.9.9.6 / Re: [U|AoMr|100%|YAVP] Marksman Platinum
« on: August 21, 2012, 07:47 »
Congratulations!
After seeing your stats, you're making me seriously reconsider my AoMr builds, seeing as I don't even clear HMP. I obssessively go for WK2, but it looks you didn't need WK at all!
After seeing your stats, you're making me seriously reconsider my AoMr builds, seeing as I don't even clear HMP. I obssessively go for WK2, but it looks you didn't need WK at all!
17
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 21, 2012, 07:12 »
Not yet, Klear! I have a huge list of things to test, and Builds will be later. I was just curious about weapons/weapon damage.
I did make a storm bolter blaster though and it simply became a Storm Blaster, which I thought was pretty sweet.
I did make a storm bolter blaster though and it simply became a Storm Blaster, which I thought was pretty sweet.
18
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 20, 2012, 16:27 »
Okay. Just been playing around with it a little bit and I can confirm that the Blaster retains its self-rejuvenating ammo regardless what you make it into. You cannot manually reload it under any circumstances.
Interestingly enough, when you go to your equipment screen and look at the blaster, it does claim to have a reload time of 1.0s, even though you can't reload it. So the wiki isn't wrong per se, just listing what the in game stats are. It's misleading though.
And I can definitely confirm what Alter mentioned earlier in this thread (and another one about modding) regarding damage and knockback. I did a Sharpshooter build because I wanted to see what a (P) Storm Bolter Combat Pistol (1d10)x2 would be like compared to a P3B2 Combat Pistol (3d5). With sharpshooter, the modded bolter should have been 20 damage each time, and the modded combat pistol would have been 15 damage each time.
The bolter would hit, cause severe knockback, and ultimately it took 6 shots to kill an arch-vile.
The modded combat pistol would hit and cause a little knockback, but it only took 4 shots to kill the arch-vile.
No contest. The knockback on the bolter was actually undesirable because it would push him out of my vision and let him start moving around and attacking me. The modded combat pistol would kill him before he had a chance to do anything.
This is definitely going to help with optimizing guides!
Interestingly enough, when you go to your equipment screen and look at the blaster, it does claim to have a reload time of 1.0s, even though you can't reload it. So the wiki isn't wrong per se, just listing what the in game stats are. It's misleading though.
And I can definitely confirm what Alter mentioned earlier in this thread (and another one about modding) regarding damage and knockback. I did a Sharpshooter build because I wanted to see what a (P) Storm Bolter Combat Pistol (1d10)x2 would be like compared to a P3B2 Combat Pistol (3d5). With sharpshooter, the modded bolter should have been 20 damage each time, and the modded combat pistol would have been 15 damage each time.
The bolter would hit, cause severe knockback, and ultimately it took 6 shots to kill an arch-vile.
The modded combat pistol would hit and cause a little knockback, but it only took 4 shots to kill the arch-vile.
No contest. The knockback on the bolter was actually undesirable because it would push him out of my vision and let him start moving around and attacking me. The modded combat pistol would kill him before he had a chance to do anything.
This is definitely going to help with optimizing guides!
19
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 20, 2012, 12:05 »And I believe there is a mod with all the weapons and items for testing purposes somewhere, try searching the modding forum.
Aha. I finally found it. Thanks for the head's up!
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5108.0;attach=896
That is apparently it right there; I'll have to try it when I get home. I'm not sure how it works yet but I'm definitely going to get a lot of use out of this.
20
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 20, 2012, 11:38 »
I don't think you can put 4 bulk mods on anything; I was under the impression that even with WK2, the limit to a "type" of any given mod to be applied to a weapon was 3 of a kind.
I'm at work right now so I'd have to test when I get home.
With the damage in mind though, as you said, B3P2 may be a better choice, just because you can fire way more before running around and waiting for it to recharge.
I don't think it can be manually reloaded, and that the reload time listed is just the 1 round per second kind of deal that the other recharging weapons have, listed incorrectly under Reload Speed. However, it's the same class as a combat pistol, which means you could make it into an Energy Blaster (which is stupid but theoretically possible), at which point I have no idea if it would become reloadable or if it would keep it's original auto-reload properties.
I *never* find Blasters either, so I can't test this at the moment. If anyone has a scummed save with a Blaster and is willing to try, please fill us in.
I'm at work right now so I'd have to test when I get home.
With the damage in mind though, as you said, B3P2 may be a better choice, just because you can fire way more before running around and waiting for it to recharge.
I don't think it can be manually reloaded, and that the reload time listed is just the 1 round per second kind of deal that the other recharging weapons have, listed incorrectly under Reload Speed. However, it's the same class as a combat pistol, which means you could make it into an Energy Blaster (which is stupid but theoretically possible), at which point I have no idea if it would become reloadable or if it would keep it's original auto-reload properties.
I *never* find Blasters either, so I can't test this at the moment. If anyone has a scummed save with a Blaster and is willing to try, please fill us in.
21
0.9.9.6 / Re: [M|AoPc|10%|YAVP]: 1st AoPC
« on: August 20, 2012, 11:16 »
The FAQ on how to post mortems was confusing for me too; it says to highlight and click on a skull, but there's never a skull for me when I use full reply or quick reply.
The only way I figured out how to post mortems properly was to quote someone else's mortem and notice it used tags!
For reference, it's [*mortem] *cut and paste your mortem here* [*/mortem], except remove all of the *s in that example. Hopefully that explains exactly what thelaptop did, in case you weren't sure what he did/how to see it.
The only way I figured out how to post mortems properly was to quote someone else's mortem and notice it used tags!
For reference, it's [*mortem] *cut and paste your mortem here* [*/mortem], except remove all of the *s in that example. Hopefully that explains exactly what thelaptop did, in case you weren't sure what he did/how to see it.
22
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 20, 2012, 09:37 »
Alright! We're moving on from the Pistol and the Combat Pistol; I'm satisfied with what we have for now and if anyone wants to change/add what I'll be putting in the wiki when I get home, they're more than welcome to do so.
Next on the list...
The Blaster
and
The Speedloader Pistol.
The Blaster does the same damage as a Pistol, although it is Plasma based. It only has +3 accuracy instead of +4 like a Pistol. They both use Aimed Shot. Where the start to differ is that the Blaster has a larger capacity of 10, shoots a little faster and reloads a little faster. However, the Blaster regenerates its own ammo.
Being as similar as it is, is there any reason to put different mods aside from P3B2 on the Blaster in an ideal set-up?
As for the Speedloader Pistol...
The Speedloader Pistol is an assembly, meaning that if you don't have WK2 when you build it, you're not going to be modding it anyway.
This means you basically get a regular pistol (same accuracy, damage, clip size, firing time, ammo, etc), with the major difference being that the reload time is cut to 0.6s. This certainly beats out a regular pistol, and I believe the advantage you get from the reload speed is probably greater for a non-WK build than any single mod you could put on a Pistol. If you have WK2, then you're likely better off putting 5 mods on a Pistol than making a (?) modded Speedloader.
Weigh in and tell me why I'm wrong, or that it really is that cut and dry.
Next on the list...
The Blaster
and
The Speedloader Pistol.
The Blaster does the same damage as a Pistol, although it is Plasma based. It only has +3 accuracy instead of +4 like a Pistol. They both use Aimed Shot. Where the start to differ is that the Blaster has a larger capacity of 10, shoots a little faster and reloads a little faster. However, the Blaster regenerates its own ammo.
Being as similar as it is, is there any reason to put different mods aside from P3B2 on the Blaster in an ideal set-up?
As for the Speedloader Pistol...
The Speedloader Pistol is an assembly, meaning that if you don't have WK2 when you build it, you're not going to be modding it anyway.
This means you basically get a regular pistol (same accuracy, damage, clip size, firing time, ammo, etc), with the major difference being that the reload time is cut to 0.6s. This certainly beats out a regular pistol, and I believe the advantage you get from the reload speed is probably greater for a non-WK build than any single mod you could put on a Pistol. If you have WK2, then you're likely better off putting 5 mods on a Pistol than making a (?) modded Speedloader.
Weigh in and tell me why I'm wrong, or that it really is that cut and dry.
23
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 15:39 »
Okay. Let's see if I can get all up to speed on this thread to date.
For people looking to do a pistols run :
If you are a Technician with WK2, the best thing you can use is likely going to be P3B2 pistols, or if available, P3B2 combat pistols.
If you are a Marine and you're going for MBD, with WK2, the best you can use is likely going to be A1B3P1 pistols or P3B2 combat pistols. If you do not have WK2, the best you can use is likely what, (A) Pistols, or if available, (P) Combat Pistols? If Masterless and no WK2, an HP Combat Pistol?
If you are a Scout and you're going for WK2, P3B2 pistols or P3B2 combat pistols. If you are a Scout and no WK2, (P) Pistols and (P) Combat Pistols?
Trying to condense it to be wiki'able as a little blurb and then I can tack on all of the "here's why" beneath it.
For people looking to do a pistols run :
If you are a Technician with WK2, the best thing you can use is likely going to be P3B2 pistols, or if available, P3B2 combat pistols.
If you are a Marine and you're going for MBD, with WK2, the best you can use is likely going to be A1B3P1 pistols or P3B2 combat pistols. If you do not have WK2, the best you can use is likely what, (A) Pistols, or if available, (P) Combat Pistols? If Masterless and no WK2, an HP Combat Pistol?
If you are a Scout and you're going for WK2, P3B2 pistols or P3B2 combat pistols. If you are a Scout and no WK2, (P) Pistols and (P) Combat Pistols?
Trying to condense it to be wiki'able as a little blurb and then I can tack on all of the "here's why" beneath it.
24
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 14:07 »Tech may enjoy HP pistol until they get WK.Meaning until lvl8 probably.And if they're not afraid to lose one P-mod.
Scout - kinda.
MBD - strange conclusion.With clip of 4 and MBD you have to reload your pistols after just 2 shots.Not enojyable at all.
Okay, so HP pistols only useful (kinda) to Scout, and possibly Techs that have extra mods/unconcerned with optimizing assemblies post WK2, and Marines that want to use pistols but not MBD... haha.
When you put it that way, it still sounds like "not a very good idea for anyone" at all, but I suppose there are extremely narrow applications.
25
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 13:35 »non-Tech can be quite happy with it and focus their traits on something more useful than taking Fin2.
MGK with HP pistol is a gamble.8 bullets may not be enough to kill someone if something go wrong.
So basically...
Tech/MSs : No point to using an HP pistol
Scout/MGK : Gamble when using HP pistol
Marine/MBD : May enjoy an HP pistol
26
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 12:44 »NOOOOOOOOO
Ah, I wasn't sure! The wiki is wrong then and I need to fix it.
The wiki states the adjustment from high powered as "Original + 2", which I took to be for example, 3d3, which I took to be (3d3)+2, as opposed to 3d(3+2), ie 3d5.
I'll adjust it for clarification to prevent these kind of gaffs.
Thanks.
27
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 10:25 »10 shots is more than enough for a dedicated pistol build, IMO. Basic pistols only get 6 shots and they are still deadly when your pistol build comes together.
That is a very good point.
Non-WK pistol builds that are lucky enough to come across a combat pistol may want to have a high power combat pistol then. Possibly.
Bullet Dance lets you fire extra bullets, so you may want extra bullets, but as you said, even an HP'd combat pistol has more boolets than regular pistol. I don't think an HP'd regular pistol itself would be a good idea at all though, with only 4 shots.
Gun Kata lets you fire faster if you dodged, and you get a free reload when you kill what you aimed for. HP'd pistols in general may work with this. Assuming you're getting the free reload off aimed shot, and you can kill them before you run out, you would never need to reload.
Sharpshooter (although the likelihood of making a Technician who does not take WK at all is slim, it is still a possibility) maxes the pistol damage at all times. In this instance, I don't know if the 2 points of damage is going to be worth the loss of ammo and a P and a B mod.
Why?
With Sharpshooter, your damage is essentially going to always be 8 (regular pistol/blaster), or 9 (combat pistol) on unmodded guns, or 10 on an hp pistol/blaster and 11 on an hp combat pistol.
OR... Just put a single P mod on each of those guns. (P) pistol/blaster now does 10, and (P) combat pistol will always do 12.
You'll get either the same damage or more from using a single P mod rather than building hp guns with a Sharpshooter build.
So HP'ing a gun is potentially only going to be worth it for Marine or Scouts.
28
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 09:38 »
Hmm. Fair enough.
Well, assuming you're not going for WK at all, you could still build the hp combat pistol, like you said, due to it being a base assembly.
So you could have either a (P) combat pistol at 7.5 dmg and 15 shots, or a high power combat pistol at 8 dmg and 10 shots. I don't know if I'd still be willing to do that.
Basically P mod for +1.5 points of damage or HP assembly for +2 points and less ammo. It's definitely more of a possible choice without WK, although I think I'd rather have the extra shots.
With WK, it's jank.
Well, assuming you're not going for WK at all, you could still build the hp combat pistol, like you said, due to it being a base assembly.
So you could have either a (P) combat pistol at 7.5 dmg and 15 shots, or a high power combat pistol at 8 dmg and 10 shots. I don't know if I'd still be willing to do that.
Basically P mod for +1.5 points of damage or HP assembly for +2 points and less ammo. It's definitely more of a possible choice without WK, although I think I'd rather have the extra shots.
With WK, it's jank.
29
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 09:06 »
I think I finally am starting to get it.
Regular combat pistol, 3d3, 15 in the clip.
A high power combat pistol is 3d3+2, clip cut down to 9 or 10 (not sure if you round up or down with assemblies), so average 8 damage.
Or, even a single P mod on the combat pistol changes it to 3d4, keeps the clip size of 15, and the average damage is 7.5. With two P mods, 3d5, average damage of 9. Or, the same mods that you'd need to make a high power version, P and B, but not assembling, gives you 3d4, 7.5 dmg, and 19.5/20 (?) shots.
Basically, the high power assembly is bad. For everything! I can't think of a single sitatution where it would be preferable to use the high power assembly rather than just straight up putting the P and the B mod on the gun and NOT assembling it.
Regular combat pistol, 3d3, 15 in the clip.
A high power combat pistol is 3d3+2, clip cut down to 9 or 10 (not sure if you round up or down with assemblies), so average 8 damage.
Or, even a single P mod on the combat pistol changes it to 3d4, keeps the clip size of 15, and the average damage is 7.5. With two P mods, 3d5, average damage of 9. Or, the same mods that you'd need to make a high power version, P and B, but not assembling, gives you 3d4, 7.5 dmg, and 19.5/20 (?) shots.
Basically, the high power assembly is bad. For everything! I can't think of a single sitatution where it would be preferable to use the high power assembly rather than just straight up putting the P and the B mod on the gun and NOT assembling it.
30
Discussion / Re: Optimization, the Wiki, and more!
« on: August 16, 2012, 07:17 »explanation
The more I see, the more I have a sneaking suspicion that Technician is the best class for pistols. But that is a topic for another time, after we get through Weapons and end up in Classes. I know they kind of overlap, but for now, the main focus is the weapon itself.
With what feedback you've given me so far, I think I can pretty much wrap up the Pistol entry for the wiki. Plus, you've provided me ample segway into the Combat Pistol, which was my next topic.
So, Combat Pistol. Higher clip size, higher base accuracy, higher damage (I think. The d3 may be where things get weird? On average it should be higher but it may interact with traits/mods in an undesirable fashion that I don't know about), but slower reload time. Is there something I'm missing out on as to why people don't use this over the regular Pistol (other than possibly the wait period to get it?) You've already touched on it a little bit, but it seems like you were only advising it for MBD and that the pistol itself is better for DG. I will likely mercilessly and incessantly ask you questions every single day if just for your opinion alone, so if you ever get burnt out by it, tell me to knock it off and I will attempt to prey upon others hahahaha.
In the end, the best thing you can do is find the Trigun or GCB =)
Oh, we'll get to those. Hahaha. I'm being OCD enough that I'm doing this *per weapon*. I still need to laboriously pour over Energy Pistol, Speedloader, etc, etc. I am literally going to treat this like "what if you only found this weapon *weapon of current discussion* and no other weapons, what would be the best possible choice(s) you could make with it to be effective?"
And then at the very end, once each weapon is done, then I do the whole "Okay, now you're playing DoomRL and you have some choices here. What is the smartest choice to make?", which like you said, would be to use what you can get to start, but ideally aim to snagging yourself a Trigun/GCB/AFJ/whatever is the "best".
No, not even close to the best thing.
Combat pistol (3d6) [26/26] (P3B2) is soooooo much cooler than Trigun and GCB in single.
Oho. This is what I mean. I think access to WK2 and 5 mods really means that vanilla weapons have the possibility to trash the unmoddable ones unless they are completely OP.
Mind you, Trigun having the "lol nuke time" option is a totally different ballgame, but we'll get there. We'll get there.