2. Oh, eah! Double elephant shotgun! Cyberdemon size! But that can ruin balance and make shotguns incredible powerful. Recipe must be in Master category and looks like "shotgun + PPPF"Then you would nearly never actually assemble this thing, and MAD would never ever see it. I would love to see such a shotgun, but perhaps as a basic assembly with a huuuuuge reload time (normal elephant gun is at 2.5s, so here something like 4s may sound reasonable).
Berserk is very good for everyone, because it kicks in on getting damaged too.At the cost of 2 early levels of Bru? Not really. Not getting hit is better than trying to proc 'zerk on damage.
Masterless pistol build can be quite interesting on high enough levels. SoB5+SoAG5+DG+Rel3+TH2+EE+2 storm bolters... 240 damage in 0.2 seconds. 0.8 seconds to reload. If you have Beretta/Combat Pistol or nano mod(s) you can have quite ridiculous DPS.Yep.
Cateye mastery works well with pistols too (because it is only burst mastery that is not chainfire-specific)It is one of the best masteries for Pistols :) .
Why he hell is halls of carnage a free BFG ? I like BFG, but I never understood why one is here... in fact, I'm just realizing, writing this, that I probably never died in this level.
Wait till 0.9.9.7 comes out before you complain any further about making it out alive from there
About city of skull, sure, you're not forced to go in... but is there any reason not to put bullets in ? If there is one, it's ok... but if the map designer just forgot about bullets when he filled the valuts, I'd like it to be fixed... it could replace the rockets, for example... does anyone fire them in this level ? O_oof course fire! Rockets good for rocketjumping and evade surrounding. They do knockback for Souls. If not a Vampire build, and not a AoSh, rockets are very usable here. As usual - first shot is from BFG (found at Halls of Carnage), and second too. Then shotgun or double shotgun, and sometimes rocket launcher or mini-launcher (I love it!) for quick escaping. So, energy cells, rockets and shells. Clear City of Sculls with 10mm weapon (pistols/chaingun) looks dangerous.
Why he hell is halls of carnage a free BFG ? I like BFG, but I never understood why one is here... in fact, I'm just realizing, writing this, that I probably never died in this level.
Is Angel of Light Travel restricted to melee?Not at all. But melee is very useful there due to the fact you don't have to worry about ammo, leaving your precious inventory slots for other things.
Can I have the Backpack on Normal? There are no RL on Arena.1. Ask it in Quick questions tread (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3999.0.html)
Really, without BFG we have very hard start in CoS. We need MVm build or homing phase - or can die in 4-5 turns even with double shotgun. BFG makes start in CoS relatively easy.Not really. I did fine with MAc build there and used Elephant (or maybe it was even basic Shotty) to clear out the stuff. You just need shellbox for this.
But I wonder about Bullet dance, which I didn't even try... probably not that bad, but since pistols weakness is clip size, I don't understand the point of this mastery at all. Also, I don't know what is meant by "firing extra bullets at half the time cost". does it increase the firing time ? would be even worse...It sounds as if you would shoot 2 bullets instead of 1, at 150% fire time cost.
but FDS is Juggler-compatible
All weapons are juggler compatible.By editing config? It feels like cheating for me.
By editing config? It feels like cheating for me.Or by having any weapon in the prepared slot, which requires no editing at all.
Maybe Dualgunner should have two levels? First, instantly available, works for pistols (except green and maybe some yellow, built with rare modpacks). Second, requiring SoaG 2, works for all pistols and one or two other guns.And which would those be? I can't really see any of the other weapons being used single-handedly. Unless we go, say, for a sawed-off shotgun, and that would be fairly redundant in the current weapon setup.
Or simply don't kill them.Some people do aim for YAAM.
Speaking about the normal game: I had the Longinus Spear twice. Both times I managed to get to that damned Assholy Cathedral with a nuke and Inv power-up still working. KARABARABOOOOOM!!! and the Spear is mine. It's useful for non-melee fighters and allows to save ammo. Is it imba or just a proper award for being that lucky?Suure you get the LS, but you don't get the achievement for beating it if I remember correctly.
Later Ao100 is indeed too ammo-starving. If you haven't found none ammo-regen weapons (or nano), several levels without formers and/or arachnos and you are screwed. Except if you are ammo-chain or melee-heavy, probably.That is why you need to introduce some kind of strategy into this game :) .
Is it imba or just a proper award for being that lucky?Luck is a big factor in DoomRL.
Later Ao100 is indeed too ammo-starving.I think we have a lot of rockets and power cells here... arachnotrons, mancubi and revenants becomes common. So, melee, rocket launcher and plasma rifles )
But that's no surprise, you know what's ahead of you when you choose that challenge.Problem is, I don't. It's a gamble on drops. It has it's own charm, but I would like to have "long mode" where I'm not limited to few builds and not screwed after three hours of playing just because RNG.
If you use rockets again something that drop rockets
***
Why do you think most Ao100 are ammochain?
Problem is, I don'tYou do. You know that you have to pass 100 levels and that requires a lot of ammo.
I think Marine/Ammochain and Tech/Scavenger are balanced.Ammochain looks like a cheat - 1 ammo -> 6-8 shots :)
Firestorm needs to be made into something useful, as noted and proposed in the other topics.
Such as (u)sing it to convert it in to 2 ammo chains/packs of your choice?
I think knockback on rapid fire or melee weapons would be negative in both cases.Knockback on NOT rapid fire guns. I.e. pistols. Knockback on melee is more negative thing than not, yes, but who knows, may be someone will find a use for it? :) Like killing demon.
Actually, my immediate idea about firestorm was allowing to apply it on armor for a +30% fire protection O.oSounds like taken from my mind:
Problem is that this discussion is way too late in the dev cycle.Blah, blah, blah.
Having played some very different games, like Hengband, blizzard's RTS, or DotA, I must say I HATE imbalance by now.I feel the same while playing many games, bro.
Too much balance is good for RPG, not for RL. RL just should have "a proper way to response to RNG". To build wise and uneasy plans to solve situations RNG creates, always possible but never easy. No nano? OK, we'll not disassemble this item because it's sorta ammo-saving. And there must be no methods which ALWAYS lead to victory. There must always be place to suddenly change your plans because of bad surprise.QFT.
RL just should have "a proper way to response to RNG". To build wise and uneasy plans to solve situations RNG creates, always possible but never easy. No nano? OK, we'll not disassemble this item because it's sorta ammo-saving. And there must be no methods which ALWAYS lead to victory. There must always be place to suddenly change your plans because of bad surprise.
Too much balance is good for RPG
QFT.And I disagree.
Too much balance is good for RPG, not for RL. (...) And there must be no methods which ALWAYS lead to victory.And this is silly and contradicting. Bad balance = there is ALWAYS the best method, which leads to victory FAR more often than the other ones.
Is it me or am I starting to think that Assemblies are the bane of all that is RL? I mean, giving control to the player to figure out what thing to make? Maybe we can re-introduce the colour mechanic of potions here -- limit the number of assemblies, but make their construction based on random mods per run. The reward of course is that the built assembly is highly OP, but no one will complain because it requires luck, right?
That way, you don't need to worry about the boredom of assembling tactical boots every time.
That way, you don't need to worry about the boredom of assembling tactical boots every time.So, you do want to change the variety of one optimal assembly into the variety of one possible assembly? What an interesting idea you got there.
Maybe the right answer will be to nerf the tactical boots.It is not only about nerfing one thing. It is also about making other stuff more useful :) .
I would also argue that it's not about the use(ful)(less) quality of the options but the lack of use of Agility mods in general.Maybe speed is too overwhelmingly important in this game, just to simply ignore it?
"Hey I found an A-mod I'll just dump in to tact boots/armor because I don't have an accuracy problem"
Buff everything else or nerf tact boots and you know what I'll do? I'll still make tact boots
Anyway the whole mod system is a case-study in systems dynamics and decision theory - it's difficult to balance it without starting over completely
Tactical Boots are not the problem. Lava/Acid protection is the problem. You don't need it often enough to make other parameters of boots as important as the speed/dodge bonus is. You encounter impassable areas you have to walk on very rarely, and when you do, they cause too much damage to use boots anyway -- you have to use an envirosuit pack or a homing phase device.Well, the most problems I had with lava were due to level-flooding levers. Aside from that, there were not many cases in which I died to lava. Most of my deaths were due to Mancubi blasts I bet...
Don't concentrate your attention on symptoms and look deeper: it's never lupus.
Then if you want to make something random, why not add random basic weapons: rl 6d6 or 6d7 or 7d6 or 5d5? Or, if you're lucky 7d7
for example
And enemies with random health ofc.
former human health: 4d5 (min 5 max 20) and so on.
Cybies are predictable and with new set they are useless, Lava Elemental is better but useless when you wear new set. Shambler and Mastermind are predictable too.
There are just not enough variance in boots to make it interesting. It boils down to speed, dodge and lava immunity. Last one is more situational, and not available until much later anyway. And first two are both on one assembly. So, actual choice is just make tac boots before or after wk2Fully agree. Removing movement penality on all resistances boots (
I think we need more boots variation ideas
Why do Tact Boots or any assembly have to have static stats?Because non-assembled modded weapons have static stats. If your assembled hyperblaster can be worse than your AT2 plasma rifle, you'll stop assembling it (or only try one when you have mods to dump).
What... I just... What.
Sorry... Looks like I've said something wrong again :(
To expand it's power onto ALL rare and unique stuff, not ranged weapons only.
If EVERYTHING can be disassembled for a mod pack, Scavenger will be even more imbalanced than Ammochain.
Most new sources give modpacks very rarely but commonly give weird and useful stuff.
Also, put the trait in perspective: unlike all other masters, Scavenger doesn't block any basic traits, allowing you to apply it to just about any build you want.
Disassembling chainsaw makes some sense, but disassembling cleaver or spear gives you what? Blade and handle?Yeah come on let's slowly change DoomRL into Vagrant Story! Who's with me?! :P
This is true, but with it blocking Dualgunner, Berserker and Triggerhappy, the only weapon specific skill it doesn't block is...Shottyman. Which isn't incredibly important to the playstyle as those other three skills are anyways
Disassembling chainsaw makes some sense, but disassembling cleaver or spear gives you what? Blade and handle?
This is true, but with it blocking Dualgunner, Berserker and Triggerhappy, the only weapon specific skill it doesn't block is...Shottyman.
Which isn't incredibly important to the playstyle as those other three skills are anyways, so you can just skip it if you wanted anyways.
or perhaps the ability to add a mod to an assembly made before getting WK2.
I'll grant you that playing melee without BER (or MMB to compensate) is going to be a pain in the ass, but a pistol build without DG is no problem whatsoever,
The only one that matters with Scavenger is Triggerhappy. Building towards melee or pistols doesn't make as much sense when your master trait is pretty much designed to give you a source of S and F mods, so Scavenger should be treated as a rapid-fire build. You do get offense as part of building it: the two levels of EE make rapid-fire weapons much nastier (pretty much required if you care about actually getting any efficient use of ammo and time with RF weapons), especially when you add an S mod. You also need the first level of Int, taking the second and making it an SS weapon makes things even better... it's a poor man's MCe, you don't get the damage per bullet, but you do hit with almost every bullet and at further than normal sight range... plus, you get fancy toys because you have WK2. Losing Triggerhappy isn't too bad... one F mod can replace it on a weapon for you, allowing you to spend those two levels on something else without losing too much.
MSc and pistols are not compatible? Ha! SoG5, SoB5, P3B2 combat pistol (3d6) [26/26]. DG? Unique mods? Unique pistols? Aint nobody have time to use them when you have 3d6+10 damage each shot. Less than 3*6+5, but still A LOT.
But they all come with disadvantages, and MSc basically have none except inability to take another master.
But +30% is not that good. Like you care that hell barons will deal not 12 but 8 damage. Still too much. And there's also the fact that you have to stand still.
there's no guarantee you'll see a Combat Pistol on a run
I'm pretty sure that Protection kicks in after resists (And I think it kicks in after shotgun falloff damage reduction, too. Hard to be absolutely certain, of course.).True, at least according to the wiki.
Pretty much everything is a drop from that, and there's no guarantee you'll see a Combat Pistol on a run(or that you won't be able to mod it that fully, for that matter. Or at least, get the Ps, which are what really matters.).Yeah, combat pistol is not guaranteed but it's relatively common. You're pretty much bound to get in Ao100 and in normal game basic pistol will suffice. Power and bulk mods are not really a problem for MSc build. There's also storm bolter, which i never assemble coz don't like but they say it's good.
And the part where you lose Triggerhappy.I don't see it as a much of a problem. I used plasma rifle, chaingun, hyperblaster without TH and was perfectly satisfied. If you want to fire more shots per second you can take Fin which is universal.
Doesn't matter. A standard issue pistol transformed into a storm bolter turns into a handheld doomsday device when backed by those stats.
I'm not saying that TH is useless ofc, it's just the real power lies in SoB.
I don't think you can mod a Storm Bolter at all. (There is in fact a topic where Kornell said this recently, IIRC?)
closer to L20 than L15
...it's not especially hard to build a Storm Bolter without Scavenger.
Translocator, Subtle knife, Mjolnir: uniques are unique. They're not supposed to be always better. They are unique.
Frag Shotgun: treat it another way: you have spare space and no shells to fill it with so you take this and 10mm ammo. So if suddenly you're out of shells, you still can fight.
Survivalist: main problem of this trait is that in DoomRL you need to kill your enemies, not die longer. That's why when you meat 372 revenants somewhere in hell, most players choose build that allows them to kill things faster. Preferably even before enemies shoot.
-Scavenger
-Gun Kata
Well, they're better than combat knife. And that's what you get in Ao100.
As for Frag shotgun - let's say you're doing AoSh UV/100% and want to do maximum number of special levels. There's a limited amount of shells in the game. Even if you take them all, sometimes you can still have free space. So you fill it with Frag Shotgun and 10mm. If you find them more shells you throw some 10mm away to take it.Seems obvious to me.
[b] shotgun shell (x50)
[c] shotgun shell (x50)
[d] shotgun shell (x50)
[e] shotgun shell (x50)
[f] shotgun shell (x50)
[g] shotgun shell (x25)
[h] shotgun shell (x50)
[i] shotgun shell (x50)
[j] shotgun shell (x50)
Does the Subtle Knife's BFG Plasma damage mean it gibs things that you kill with it?
And even for those, MSc isn't all the help I had hoped it to be. What the hell do I need 4 sniper mods in 50 levels for??
(Never mind that Chainsaws do show up randomly.)Not for me.
Not for me.
Never in my DoomRL life i saw random chainsaw or random bfg9000.
Just a crazy idea: Dum-dum rifle (I already love the name!) Four 10mm bullets hit the target and if it's gibbed, a wide shotgun blast appears from it's square. It's the parts of exploded bullets which additionally hit other monsters. So shooting nearest zombie in a crowd can kill 2-3 at once.
Nice creativity but somehow I feel this might be a bit too much, in making the game far easier with a shotgun that is. Feels somehow overpowered since at high difficulties you do get to shoot at many enemies at the same time. On the other hand, rockets and other blast weapons practically do "almost" the same thing so I don't know, "maybe" with the right tweaks/stats on the weapon it "could" work.
"Pizdets Vsemu (F**kin' End to Everything)"Ahh, screw that Wiki shitty legends :) .
It kind of feels like pistol variety is lacking compared to the other weapons.
I also feel like Oynx, Sniper, and Firestorm are a bit behind Nano in terms of assemblies.
Also, don't if it's a bug, but Shamblers don't make hit sounds, which makes it hard to tell if I'm hitting them or not.
I meant just the generic weapons. Like melee, shotguns, and chain guns all have guaranteed upgrades at some point.
The problem with adding another common pistol that's better than basic pistol is pistol's high scaling with SoG. Even a small upgrade translates in quite a noticeable difference later. For example combat pistol having initial 3d3 which is not much better than 2d4 becomes best single-shot pistol with 3d6 after P3 modding. And it also have super-high clip size, which is upgradable too...Agreed, you do have a point of course. It would need to be carefully thought of, to avoid upsetting the balance.
I would like to use something other than what i got right on the start, but i don't think this can be easily balanced.
... plus you get tons of extra ammo!I wonder if we should nerf that farming... thing.
I wonder if we should nerf that farming... thing.
Why I can't combine Ao100 and AoLT?Because the game doesn't allow you at this point.
Also, I would think that Kornel didn't pair Ao100 and AoLT because it would be deemed as being too cruel, though I beg to differ. If the players are masochistic enough, we should definitely humour their... perversions. >.>