Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: ultimate26 on March 09, 2012, 12:55
-
Hi guys! ever since the beginning of doomRL, ive always struggled using the shotgun and i would like to know if it is possible to focus on the shotgun and be effective.
The odds of finding accuracy based weapons is much higher than a shotgun(pistos,miniguns,plasmarifle,rocket launcher VS shotgun, tactical and double shotty)
And at this current state, I feel that going 2 shotties with juggler is the most efficient way to use it because of the 0 reload time(swapping) which allows shooting without delay.
If the odds of finding a good shotgun item are low then doesnt that make the shotgun build more reliable on luck rather than skill?
I saw in one of the threads that using tech class with FIN > JUG > SOB > SOB into any option you like gives you more variation.
Can you guys post your experiences and advice regarding a shotgun build?
Cheers
-
When I go for a dedicated shotgun build (a la AoSg) I generally strive to have a Combat and Double Shotgun in my hands. The Combat will hopefully get turned into a Tactical Shotgun, and the Double is my psuedo-melee option. However, getting that Combat Shotty is far from guaranteed, so I'd suggest getting really comfortable with a vanilla Shotgun.
Some specific builds that I've had success with:
*Pulled off a Quartermaster Gold with a Shottyhead build. That master gives you Juggler and builds easily into Whizkid or Dodgemaster. Because of the hilariously low firetime for Shottyheads, you should definitely try to get an automatic shotgun of some sort. Specifically, you'll want to try and assemble a Tactical Shotgun, or pray for an Assault Shotgun, Plasma Shotgun or maybe even the Jackhammer.
*Fireangel was good until the current version broke its functionality. I'd avoid that trait for now.
*Army of the Dead is a time-tested classic, but I've been taking it somewhat less frequently as of late. Blocking Finesse and Hellrunner is pretty harsh, but it's hard to argue with Piercing damage on all your shotguns.
*For a masterless build, you'll obviously want Shottyman. Anything else is up to you, but I'd suggest getting any of the following: Badass, Dodgemaster, Whizkid, Intuition (Scouts only) or Juggler. As always, Ironman can keep you alive during the brutal lower levels, and a couple extra points of damage from Son of a Bitch will never go unappreciated - it REALLY helps get those "extended"-range kills.
Some basic tactical guidelines:
*Learn to use the vanilla Shotgun. It is absolutely a viable weapon, if a bit awkward, should you never find a Combat Shotgun (which is a very real and disappointing possibility). Regular Shotguns become quite usable with Shottyman and an understanding of cornershooting.
*Cornershooting. Learn it, use it, love it, abuse it. This is the real reason why shotgun builds work. It's a lot of hassle and it requires some patience, but cornershooting is the linchpin that holds shotgun builds together, especially early game. The enemy AI has been modified to be a bit more aggressive. If you hit a monster outside of LOS (say, shooting around a suspicious corner) keep shooting! But listen as well, or maybe wait a couple turns. Try to hear just how many monsters cry out in pain, and also how loud the cries are. With a little practice, you'll have a "player Intuition" that gives you almost as much information as the trait. Best place to practice is in Hell's Arena.
*Shottyman: Know when to reload, know when to move. The thing you need to remember about Shottyman is that your base reload time is probably still a lot less than your movement time. In my book, running-and-gunning against powerful enemies is a "shit just hit the fan" tactic. The best way to avoid damage is to avoid even being targeted by monsters in the first place. Cornershooting works a lot better with a low reload time, as it makes a "knockback lock" much easier to achieve on powerful foes. As a general rule, if you don't need to move during a firefight, you probably should reload while standing still.
*Double Shotgun: The range is really short (8 squares), but the maximum damage is very high up close. I typically use an unmodded Double Shotty as a sort of "shotgunner melee" attack. If you've taken at least 1 level in Whizkid, consider putting together a Focused Double Shotgun, which will grant your weapon the same spread as a basic Shotgun. For a Double Shotty, this dramatically increases the range and effective damage.
As a side note, the rare shotguns can cause ridiculous amounts of carnage when used under a dedicated shotgun build. I've been dying to make a Plasmatic Assault Shotgun under a Shottyhead build one of these days, but I've never had the fortune. The three basic shotguns can do all the damage you need, provided you use them smartly. Well... unless you get a scumbag Former or Baron who snatches up anti-shrapnel armor. Not much you can do there without switching to another weapon class altogether.
-
Well, there are many ways to make a shotty build but my go-to shotty is technition fin > jug > WK > WK > HR > HR > DG. That way I have some firepower and armor from Wizkid and also have dodgemaster in time for the tower of babbel. the juggler right off the bat is for obvious reasons.
Anyways, that's just what I do. All you have to do is find what works for you.
Good luck ^.^
-
I like shottyhead a lot. Sometimes you can have a hell baron or arachnotron in melee range out in the open, and with a tactical shotgun you can push them all the way out of your vision radius before they can shoot.
In my experience with shottyhead, a combat shotgun should be enough to get to the mastermind. But I hope you have a lot of shells if you want to use it then.
-
As for me, I always go for the Army of the Dead, mostly because I have a paranoia of shell lackage on later levels. And the elephant gun does the job with this trait. Although, it's important to note, I think, that U City of Skulls can potentially be dangerous, if you don't have the D-shotty, because lost souls are pretty good with swarming the player, way too fast than you wish. So I suggest going for MAD, and have a C-Shotty (to make it tactical), bulk-modded D-Shotty (you know, just because it's 'bulk'), and a regular shotgun to make it the elephant gun. Other question is the exotics/Jackhammer, I don't usually see them. Only once I found the plasma shotgun while playing U AoSh, and it was meh.
-
How come tactical shotgun is better than assault shotgun according to the wiki?
can anybody give me a tier list of shotguns? why is elephant shotgun considered good when you can go tactical or focused double shotty instead?
To me it feels as if the P mods are really rare, i see tons of As and Ts somtimes Bs.
Plasma shotgun any good? with damage reduction how much different is it from a Tactical shotgun? they are both mentioned as 15 average damage.
-
It's hard to make tier list.After all what's best for you depends on your build.
Elephant Gun is the most ammo efficient not requiring WK assemble.Without Shottyman nearly useless due to 2.5s reload time.Mostly used when playing MAD since it blocks Fin.
Tactical and assault are the same except difference in number of damage dices.Focused blast, good for cornershooting, don't require traits to be useful.
DS - wide blast, 2s reload time, useless if enemy is not close.FDS - normal blast, requires WK, pretty good.
Plasma shotgun - unique blast and plasma damage( so halved armor reduction instead of doubled).But eats cells.
Jackhammer - eats shells extremely fast.Useful sometimes.
P-mods seems rare to me too, but according to wiki all normal mods have the same weight,meaning equal chances.
-
Ultimate I think a tier list is somewhat difficult because the different shotguns have very different roles. Some shotguns have more spread than others, others have more DPS, and others are more ammo-efficient. Here is a basic breakdown though:
TIER 0: Regular shotgun
TIER 1: Combat shotgun; Double shotgun; Elephant Gun
TIER 2: Tactical shotgun; Focused double shotgun;
TIER 2.5: Assault shotgun; Plasma shotgun (?)
TIER 3: Super Shotgun, Pancor Jackhammer.
I did not list the nanoshrapnel assembly because I haven't tested it. A little explanation:
Tier 0 - the regular shotgun is pretty average, no outstanding abilities or penalties.
Tier 1 - These three shotguns are better at different roles. The Double Shotgun is invaluable for fighting lost souls and pain elementals, the wider spread is invaluable. This is even usable for non shotgun-based builds now due to the shell box. However, it sucks at range and is less ammo-efficient than a regular shotgun. The combat shotgun is one of the best weapons in the game for any build, because it is extremely efficient at corner shooting and radar shooting, and uses common ammunition. It is more effective at range than the other shotguns of this tier. The elephant gun does less damage per time fired than the double, but does more damage per shell than any shotgun until the super shotgun, meaning it has a niche role to fill.
Tier2: The two assemblies offer minor but significant improvements. Your tactical shotty will not need pumping, making it even better for corner shooting, while the focused double shotty is more ammo efficient. But because the assemblies limit the number of mods that can be applied they are listed at this tier.
Tier2.5: The assault shotgun is almost identical to the tactical shotgun. It has 1 more ammo in its magazine and does 1d3 less damage per shot. The only advantage is that it can be modded. A P3 assault shotgun is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Thus it is only better for builds with levels in whizkid.
I listed the plasma shotgun here due to a lack of experience with it. I believe it uses 5 plasma rounds per shot, but is armor piercing, faster to reload, and has a larger effective magazine than either the tactical or assault shotties. Probably good for shotgun builds to have an alternative ammo to use, but for builds not so constrained the plasma rifle is probably better.
Tier3: These are the uber weapons. The Super shotgun is a significant upgrade over the double and focused double shotguns. You can even fire one shell at a time for the most damaging weapon per shell fired. The Pancor fires two shells at once like a double, but can carry a large magazine and its damage is better at range like a tactical - best of both worlds.
Ultimate the performance of the plasma depends entirely on how much armor your target has. Most regular creatures have no more than 2 base armor, which is doubled vs regular shotgun shrapnel and halved vs plasma, leading to three more damage. This isn't too important at point blank range, but lets say your target is 7 tiles away from you:
7d3 - 14 damage average. 7 tiles distance = 35% damage reduction, so roughly 10 damage at 7 tiles. After armor, this will be 6 damage for the regular combat shotgun and 9 damage for the plasma.
If you are radar shooting distant mobs at say 12 tiles, that is a 60% damage reduction. The regular combat will deal 7 damage, reduced by armor to 3, while the plasma will deal 6. As you can see, the greater the range, the more important the damage type is.
-
I love shotguns!
If you want a quick and dirty build to learn shotgunning basics, I suggest this:
Scout: Int->Int->Rel->Rel, then possibly going to Shottyhead from there.
Learn enemy movement patterns by watching them using Int. Also, get a feel for how to shoot them such that they cannot shoot you back.
If you are planning to play a shotgun-only build, Reloader is very very important in the beginning. There's nothing worse than seeing a pack of demons converge on you and not being able to knock them back fast enough because your shotty takes too long to reload.
A vanilla shotgun can take you very far provided you play tactically. That means firing shots into blank spaces and listening for enemy cries, and retreating to corners. I cannot emphasize the second point enough. Retreat to corners and fire around them!
If ammo is plentiful and you have no need to conserve, let it rip once you hear an enemy pain cry. Conversely, if you're low on ammo, wait for them to come closer so that they feel the full effect of shells.
Everything better than a vanilla shotgun is heaven!
-
played today an AoSh run, got blessed with a Jackhammer - ruined it all when ran out of ammo at level 1 Hell, rage quit. Whacking with Jackhammer against lost souls is counter-productive :) I didn't have shottyman at that point, as I went into Int2, Juggler and DM first.
SO far I expect the best dedicated shotgun build with the scout is Int-Int-Rel-Rel-SM-HR-HR-DM-Fin-either into MSH or WK, depending of mods abundance. Tactical shotgun is a must I guess.
-
SO far I expect the best dedicated shotgun build with the scout is Int-Int-Rel-Rel-SM-HR-HR-DM-Fin-either into MSH or WK, depending of mods abundance. Tactical shotgun is a must I guess.
Try taking Rel and SM first, or alternate Rel-Int. You *need* to cut the reloading time early game, and I like to try and shoot for achieving Shottyman while in Hell's Arena.
Also, hoard shells like a maniac if you're doing AoSg or a shotgun-primary build. Yes, you may just need those 8 stacks of shells. Trade shell stacks for shell boxes when possible, but seriously shoot to have at least 300 total shells between inventory stacks or boxes. Shells are often hard to find in Hell, stockpile them while you can in Phobos and Deimos. Halls of Carnage is also a great place to stock back up even if you don't want/ can't use the BFG.
-
SO far I expect the best dedicated shotgun build with the scout is Int-Int-Rel-Rel-SM-HR-HR-DM-Fin-either into MSH or WK, depending of mods abundance. Tactical shotgun is a must I guess.
Granted, Int->Int first thing certainly helps survivability, but I usually prefer Rel->Rel. Double-reloader turns the regular shotgun into a tool that allows you to corner shoot any enemy in the game indefinitely. Rel->Rel->SM also makes Hell's Arena easier than Int 2, in my opinion.
Ah, and about shells—if you have the chance to archvile-farm sergeants safely, do it.
-
sure enough hoard shells. I had 8 stacks in that game with a Jackhammer, and burned through all of them. Granted, I did stupid things - first, I didn't go to Halls of Carnage, second, I did both City of Skulls and Arachnid Lair, and to add injury to injury, no sergeants in Deimos-7 to feed me with shells, and also none of them in Hell-1. He-he. (I was left with 2 shell boxes, but I was really frustrated by that point so I quit.)
Archvile-farm sergeants? Well, this sounds like a plan, though I still like them stay dead more than play "down-up". It can help on higher difficulties, of course, thanks.
About Int-Int start vs Rel-Rel - I want to practice untouchability, so that I am forcing a gameplay compying with taking no damage directive. Last game went stupidly wrong at Phobos Anomaly - was stupid enough to allow souls to surround me, pwned 3 large medpacks and an armor, with the oh so needed help received from cacodemons, blowing part of those skulls into oblivion, then frantically running back to hide and heal. Also was wielding a combat shotty instead of double shotty, it works a whole lot better against multiple targets at close range. (Well, I am still a novice, despite winning one HMP and a bunch of challenges.) So far being at Deimos-5 (ran out of time this morning), with tactical shotty in primary and shotgun/P1 plus double/T1 for backups. And 12 stacks of shells, and two shell boxes :) Int-Int-HR-HR-DM-Rel-Rel-SM-Fin, don't remember did I already get that Fin or not.
-
Another way to practice survivability is to play Technician Rel-Rel, though you can't shoot for Fireangel in 0.9.9.6 due to the bug. Getting a tracking map almost every other level really helps you to get a feel for how the AI works, and for how well you can avoid getting hit. Pay attention to your reload times and your movement times, and get a feel for how fast you can run away from the enemy and how many times you can safely corner shoot before the enemy is on you.
-
Also, hoard shells like a maniac if you're doing AoSg or a shotgun-primary build. Yes, you may just need those 8 stacks of shells. Trade shell stacks for shell boxes when possible, but seriously shoot to have at least 300 total shells between inventory stacks or boxes. Shells are often hard to find in Hell, stockpile them while you can in Phobos and Deimos. Halls of Carnage is also a great place to stock back up even if you don't want/ can't use the BFG.
No kidding. When playing AoSh on UV, I always ended up with no ammo in Hell's Armory, even though I even unloaded every single shotgun that was left after the sergeants. I guess I have to learn to conserve ammo better before attempting it again.
-
300 shells is weak. I regularly carry 560 or more (that's 8 stacks with the backpack).
-
Am I the only one who believes that juggler is better than reloader?
With juggler initially i carry 2 shotguns and swap them for no reload time giving me shotty shots that knockback the enemy allowing me to kill them in the 3rd hit with no damage, works extra well when cornershooting.
Then i find a combat shotgun and pumping is not aftected by reloader, and most monsters would die from taking 5 shells before i reload.
end game is tactical shotgun and double shotgun, i only use double shotty when its point blank until i turn it into focused double shotty.
I almost never reload in the middle of a fight unless i am cornershooting a powerful monster, but they cant approach because of knockback and die.
My build goes like "Fin-Jug-SOB-SOB" then either wizkid/TAN/TH depending on what i get, if my mods are not enough then TAN, if i get an early plasma, TH.
Never felt the need for reloader or shottyman, passive abilities that can be fixed with juggler :)
-
Well, it's almost true.Rel is generally inferior to Fin, but you can't take shotgun master traits without taking Rel first.
And juggler is less useful if you specialize on one weapon type,in which case you don't really care about instaswapping.
-
@ultimate26:
- sometimes you do fight with tough / fast groups of enemies and two basic shotguns are not enough to kill them; thats when the Reloader is handy ;) ;
-
in that case, take third shotgun and a pistol to make juggler not swap with prepared slot but pull a still-loaded shotgun out of inventory. BAM-BAM-BAM, up to the number of loaded shotguns in inventory. But they will need reloading, all of them, while it's great for a set of burst fire to have a ton of common shotguns, the constant reliance on that bunch is a problem, you need whole 2.0s per shotty to reload it without Rel, that is, 1.0 to take it off the inventory since Juggler won't let you take an unloaded weapon if there are loaded ones, and another 1.0 to actually reload. Tried that to some extent, had fun early, bot later you need either tactical shotty, or whatever other means possible to knock back enemies (missile launcher in prepared slot? :) if you're able to shoot it, of course).
-
That is not how Juggler works, IIRC.
If you have an example of the quick-keyed weapon in your prepared slot, you will switch weapons.
If you do not and one is wielded, nothing will happen ('You are already wielding x!').
If neither slot has the quick-keyed weapon, it pulls the one with the least ammo from your inventory.
On-topic: Reloader is great for keeping your gun loaded rather than swapping your empty one out in zero seconds, then waiting for them to come into view and take more damage from your second shot, then being out of ammo and having to reload without a bonus. I've done mAC lead-ins just fine starting with Rel(2); it keeps things from getting too close when you can't corner-shoot right this instant and makes demon encounters hilarious.
-
no, this was fixed in 0.9.9.6, if neither slot has an instance of a keyed weapon, it pulls weapon with the most ammo from the inventory.
-
3 shots with no reload? I didnt know that, good to keep in mind ;)
Besides, Technician doesnt have any good shotgun master class, fireangel is currently bugged, and i love modding things.
Insta health pack unique item modding and Fast Whizkid is more meaningful to me than a +10 health bonus, hell i usually take badass after TAN and i feel like my life went up by 1.5.
I dont like using Marine because of 2 FIN requirement for whizkid, right now i feel that WK is a necessity for competitive advantage.
Starting with a Tech mod is great aswell, I was thinking why Marine and Scout dont start with freebies? i was thinking that marine should have a green armor from start since hes supposed to be the "Tank" type, Scout should have boots or something.
-
Starting with a Tech mod is great aswell, I was thinking why Marine and Scout dont start with freebies? i was thinking that marine should have a green armor from start since hes supposed to be the "Tank" type, Scout should have boots or something.
I though marines should maybe start with at least a small medkit.
BTW, whizkid is much less useful before you find out all the best assemblies =)
-
The thing is, whizkid is great because you start with T mod, chained court gives you 2 A mods which gives you an instant hyperblaster, at that point you add some points to TH and you got a crazy gun that can fire twice and kill most things without an issue.
Late game becomes about modded shotties or Assault rifle, hyperblasters with TH.
I truly wish Scavenger didnt require EE and intuition because it forces you to go with chainguns and plasma rifles.
I almost always go initially with dual shotgun juggling, if i run into combat or double shotgun i stick to the shotgun path, if not i go into hyperblaster or assault chaingun.
-
Dude... I wrote that I don't have the good assemblies yet and you have to go and spoil one in the very next post.
Lucky I have such a poor memory =(
-
I just finished a Scavenger shotgun Ao100 game and it was some of the best fun I've had in ages. The "wasted" EE does suck a little in the early game, but it makes all the rockets hit straight in the late game, so there's sort of a balance. But for a normal game the inability to use EE for profit does jar a little.
-
The "wasted" EE does suck a little in the early game, but it makes all the rockets hit straight in the late game, so there's sort of a balance.
And then you find a Revenant Launcher.
-
And you scrap it for a nano pack, and make a nano launcher :) or a nanoBFG :D
-
And then you find a Revenant Launcher.
Hoo boy, if you end up getting one, good times. Even then, doesn't EE affect its accuracy to some extent? Like, if you're not accurate enough, it might end up one or two tiles off?
-
I've only found one, but from my limited experience it seemed consistently precise.
-
Klear: Don't worry about the hyperblaster "spoiler" because it is actually incorrect. TAA won't give you a hyperblaster.
As far as reloader vs: juggler - the last version I played (9.9.6 (?)) juggler was clearly superior because shotguns had a higher base reload speed (1.5 or so)?. Thus the speed increase from reloader was not enough to keep enemies reliably knocked back. I always carried multiple shotguns around for Hell's Arena. Now, I think juggler is still probably better, but reloader is stronger as a result of the reload time decrease.
-
Klear: Don't worry about the hyperblaster "spoiler" because it is actually incorrect. TAA won't give you a hyperblaster.
As far as reloader vs: juggler - the last version I played (9.9.6 (?)) juggler was clearly superior because shotguns had a higher base reload speed (1.5 or so)?. Thus the speed increase from reloader was not enough to keep enemies reliably knocked back. I always carried multiple shotguns around for Hell's Arena. Now, I think juggler is still probably better, but reloader is stronger as a result of the reload time decrease.
Juggler may be superior in the short run, but overall in anything but a MSH build - just go straight for the master you want!
However a masterless shotgun build naturally - can more than accommodate Juggler without a doubt!
-
Just a skew of random thoughts on shotgun builds......
Shotguns don't actually get all that more damaging through leveling. They get more versatile. Rel/SM and Fin/Jug does up your DPS due to lack of reloading constraints, but doesn't really up damage during firetime. You move better, you swap better, you reload better, but you don't really do more damage. Mods up your damage. Power mods specifically. Assemblies up your damage. They all use power mods. So find some power mods. They give you a versatile character that can do damage.
A shotgun is an oddity of sorts. An area weapon that doesn't destroy items yet can obtain some knockback quite easily. The weapons are common as muck. It has fairly large ammo stacks for the damage caused. The problem being that these ammo stacks get rarer and rarer the deeper you go into the game. Sometimes you won't get another shell during the last 5 levels. It's like reverse plasma. You get a heap in the first five levels where it does wonders. Then you need to mod/build/play your doomguy and scrounge every shell from that point. Plasma is easy, every character can slap on some EE and some TH and walk over the game. No master traits needed, ammo is abundant. Shells, not so much. The right build, the right (modded) weapon, the right play, and you're better than anyone. From the first level onward.
Shottyman is ace, simply because it brings your single and double shotties back online. A double essentially doesn't work for any more than two blasts (or four with alt-fire) even with weapon swapping and juggler. Shottyman lets you play active defense/offense all game. Juggler caps out.
Reloader is also good. It works for all weapons, not just your shotguns. RL/ML/BFGs are all your big guns that want some reloader. Shotguns want reloader. Therefore reloader is good in a shotty build for all the weapons you'll need to use.
A technician can have a really easy time of things by taking reloader as their first trait and putting their tech mod on that first level shotgun. I've got to the Mortuary without finding a combat shotty. You can make it there with a tech modded shotty. Then power mod the assault shotty.
Tactical shotguns are the epitome of all a shotgun build wants. Ignore my last bit. Keep the tech mod. One power mod and you're there. In fact, combat shotties are the epitome of a shotgun build. Then you just want a couple of mods and you're there.
Playing a double shotty build is the funnest way to play shotguns. Especially AoD DB shotgun builds. Just pretend you're a melee build with a square or twos extra range, Close. Laugh. Boom. Laugh. Side-step. Laugh. Boom. Laugh, It's fun. It'll make you wonder why there is no "DB shotty kills" medals.
Juggler is great, but only to a point. It's versatile, it's quick to get, it suits all weapons. Unfortunately you'll need all those slots that are currently carrying weapons for ammo/armour/health and a couple of consumables if you want to play it safely. A double shotty (backup/p.elementals/skulls) and a main shotgun is all you want in a shotty build. Any other weapons are just your big hitters (RL/ML/BFG). Juggler caps out but starts off really strong. Reloader never caps out, neither does shottyman, neither does Int(2). Ever.
A scout with Int(2) by second level is just stupid for shotgun builds. It's perfect cornering, great damage mitigation, excellent shotgun scouting, ammo conservation plus and a good feeling of general safety. It's really good. Like, too good for shotguns. In fact, it'll get you up to and through the wall with the greatest of ease (by which time you have all the weapons you could want).
AoD is better than every other shotgun build. Fireangel doesn't work. Shottyhead isn't "just" a shotgun build. AoD gives you great passive defense, great active defense, good tactical defense and nice damage regardless of the situation. Or what weapons you find. Or even what armour. It's great with a tactical shotgun. But it works with a normal shotgun. It works with any shotgun really. It's THE shotgun build. Every other build does lots of other weapons well. AoD? Just shotguns, really well. And I guess reloading all your stuff. Like shotguns. Really well.
See, I told you. Just random thoughts. I'm tired.
-
Nononoo....Tactical Shotgun isn't the epitome of Shotgun builds...
P-modded Tactical Shotgun...
All you shotgun nerds just jumped for joy...I know you did! (I know I did...)
-
PPP super shotgun sounds better IMHO :) just running with this and watching them fly all across the level into LAAAAVAAAAA! :D (well, I'm one P mod short, so it's PP super shotty instead) And yes, a tactical shotgun is one piece of respect, even if not P-modded. (Perhaps I should make me another in this run and P-mod it just for the sake of it?)
-
The thing is, tactical/combat shotties dont really have issues with reload, if player properly they will kill most enemies without having to reload.
For me juggler is still better because once i am done with my 5 shots, i swap to double shotty and the enemy is guaranteed to die.
I never find myself reloading in front of the enemy unless i want them to approach for cornershooting.
Instead of having 2 levels of reload and shottyman id rather have 2 SOB or 2 TAN, because they actually make a bigger difference than just saving time.
They keep me alive and kill things faster, reloader simply lets you fight faster but if it died right away then it wouldnt matter.
-
I recently played a shotty-oriented Tech build on UV, with positive outcome, and the main combat traits I choose were
Rel x 2
Fin x 3
Jug
HR x 2
So basically, rather than "kill them fast and don't get killed", I was more like "run behind a corner fast, then kill them". Worked like a charm for me.
-
Meh, both Juggler and Reloader are at the weak end of the scale. Reloader is obsoleted by the tactical shotgun, while Juggler only comes into play when you lose control of a situation. It would be interesting to see a survey of mortems which have taken Reloader 3 to see how much the community likes the skill. I suspect the results will be far, far behind Hellrunner, Finesse, and Nails.
-
Get your move speed to about half your double-shotty reload time (a common scenario, even with 2 rel, I assure you) and tell me that shottyman doesn't save time.
-
While i do believe that Reloader is a weak trait, Juggler is not about losing control.It's also about being jack-of-all trades that can wield a lot of different weapons effectively and make instant follow-ups with another weapon after firing.
-
AoD is better than every other shotgun build. Fireangel doesn't work.
Wining by fiat of being the only real "shotgun" build that currently isn't bugged isn't much of a win in my book.
AoD gives you great passive defense, great active defense,
What? It blocks Hellrunner, which is the required trait for active defense. And even with tactical boots, you're going to need Red armor to survive on HMP and up. It doesn't much matter anyways, because active defense is, in my experience, a big, bad, horrible joke - unless, of course, you're using Fireangel.
Fireangel, after all, lets you dodge Arch-Viles and Revenants. Arch-Viles and Revenants. With Fireangel, killing the Cyberdemon without taking damage is a cinch. Especially since it requires Dodgemaster, and if you're lucky the Arch-Vile or Revenant's attack is the "first" one in the round (usually the Vile.) And it undoes one of the major failings of active defense; the fact that splash damage from shots hitting walls usually nails you anyway. It also makes you effectively immune to Mancubi.
Given all that, the fact my shotties bounce off enemies doesn't faze me in the slightest. Actually getting up in their face and unloading a double shotgun - or a focused double shotgun - or knocking them back into lava and laughing like a maniac - or just switching to my accuracy-modded rocket launcher - is pretty easy. Especially when you factor in Finesse 2 and a tactical shotgun, all the armor in the world can't save thine enemies. (The beauty of shotgun builds using rocket-launchers for back up is 2 ranks of Reloader, slap a few Agility mods on it and hey, presto. Especially with Juggler.) Hellrunner/Dodgemaster is merely for reaching corners or getting out of bad situations, which the RNG and/or monsters will put you in frequently without you having a single thing to say about it. As Noir seemingly discovered, shotguns never kill fast enough at max range to allow real run-and-gun tactics, but Fireangel keeps you safe from a vast amount of damage that would otherwise hit you as you flee for your corners or undertake the occasional double-rush. (Too bad it's bugged in the current version, we'll just have to wait.)
You'd think that AoD would be the "stand and deliver!" build, what with the focus on standing still and dishing out massive shotgun damage that ignores armor, but the requirements of AoD basically require you to suck at everything. Blocking Finesse is harsh, harsh, harsh. It directly removes your ability to "stand and deliver." If you can't avoid damage, then you had best be dishing it out really fast. As in, fast enough to stand toe-to-toe with a few barons on HMP and come out on top. And even with piercing damage, without Finesse, that just ain't happening, chum. Without Finesse, you'll never get Whizkid, either, so better armors and really nasty shotguns are permanently out of your reach. The armor is especially bad, since passive defense is so reliant on it.
Tried to clear the Wall recently with a passive shotty build. I'd just gotten AoD, figured, hey, time to kick Barons in the face. Ended up switching to my accuracy-modded rocket launcher quite soon, because AoD just wasn't cutting it on my shotgun. Eventually I got tired of playing peek-a-boo, so I switched to Running and sprinted to the other side of the wall, shooting a crowd of 4-5 barons with my double shotty, moving to dodge/reload, and firing again. It eventually worked... eventually. On Barons already softened up by blind rocket bombardment. And my big bad tough armored dude was still at 32% health by the time that was done - as one might expect from a heavy armored dude without Hellrunner. And this was with tac boots, no less.
In short, the supposed offensive power of AoD just can't offset the lack of survivability. The only advantage is ammo efficiency for later levels, but with the addition of shell boxes to the game, even that is lessened.
I want to love AoD. I really do. But several shotgun/chainsaw wielding badasses named "Ash" have died in Hell to no avail trying to use that useless trait tree. Clearly I'm doing it wrong, and if you could educate me in the error of my ways, I'd adore you forever.
Seriously. What am I missing, here?
-
I believe AoD is all about the elephant gun and tactical shotty. Get either and pwn. Tac will do most of your usual scouting, while elephant will let you cornershoot, even while it's unbelievably slow to reload, you will likely be even slower to move. BTW, Tac's blast deals enough at the topmost range to lower some nastier beasts with AoD. I did do a win with an AoD, on HNTR, and the cyberdemon was a BEAST - but, it was in 0995, and I IIRC had plate armor. Here you would want a fireshield JUST to beat the cyberdemon, and likely a melee armor to beat the mastermind. "Ballistic ballistic vest" - hum.
I believe AoD is overnerfed. Get PS shotty and lay waste to the same extent as you would do with AoD, and have hellrunner/finesse to the top as you see fit. Even simple NORMAL shotgun with both will shine better than elephant with AoD. IMHO.
-
Guys, please call Army of the Dead MAD, not AoD.AoD is usually either Angel of Death or Angel of Darkness -_-.
-
I want to love AoD. I really do. But several shotgun/chainsaw wielding badasses named "Ash" have died in Hell to no avail trying to use that useless trait tree. Clearly I'm doing it wrong, and if you could educate me in the error of my ways, I'd adore you forever.
Seriously. What am I missing, here?
Ash is from Army of Darkness, not Army of the Dead, so you don't need this trait to roleplay him. I'd suggest juggler in such a build anyway, to switch between shotgun/chainsaw easiely. In any case, we need the Boomstick as a unique shotgun.
-
Guys, please call Army of the Dead MAD, not AoD.AoD is usually either Angel of Death or Angel of Darkness -_-.
Lol and I was wondering what AoD was for a while. Stands that I missed the Army of Darkness reference :)
Ash is from Army of Darkness, not Army of the Dead, so you don't need this trait to roleplay him. I'd suggest juggler in such a build anyway, to switch between shotgun/chainsaw easiely. In any case, we need the Boomstick as a unique shotgun.
"ALL RIGHT you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This..."
-
Hell if this is about ash should juggler be a main requirement for Mad?
FIN-JUG-REL combination of some sort!
-
I think Finesse (and thus juggler) is not allowed by MAD.
I'm going to try out some masterless "Ash" builds when I get home, though. I wanted to do that for some time, though this thread made me give it high priority =)
Edit: Hmm.. I'm thinking Juggler, Shottyman, Brute, Badass and Scavenger. Hehe... it may be bad... but it feels gooood.
-
I believe AoD is all about the elephant gun and tactical shotty.
This was my suspicion as well. I scoffed at the Elephant Gun initially because it requires two power mods to do what an unmodded double shotty does already - but I didn't stop to factor that the elephant gun's normal shotgun blast is much better at range, still has the spread to help with Lost Souls and the like, and most vitally armor is only applied twice, not four times. That, and it seemed purpose-built for active-shotgun builds.
I just fiddled with the numbers really quick, and it seems the tactical shotty still comes out on top. With a fire time of 1.0 and a 5-round tube, it puts out 75 damage in 5.0 turns before you have to reload - which you can do with a single move if you've got shottyman. (For sake of argument let's assume your move speed is 1.20, which sounds about right for modded red armor + tactical boots.) That's with an average damage of 15 (according to the wiki.) Now lets look at the elephant gun, assuming you're using your 1.20 move to reload by hopping about. With an average damage of 22 and fire speed of 1.0 you can dish out 88 points of damage... in 8.8 seconds. 1.0 to fire, 1.20 to move and reload. If you fire three times you average 66 damage, time cost: 6.6 seconds. Clearly the Elephant Gun would shine for an active shottyman, but passive...?
I suppose you could try to factor in the dodge chance you'd get from moving, but considering how lackluster active defense seems to be (without Fireangel) on dedicated builds, I doubt our passive shottyman will do much better - and moving makes using tactical defense a lot harder, because sometimes you don't have enough cover to juke about like that.
Even simple NORMAL shotgun with both will shine better than elephant with AoD. IMHO.
Certainly nothing to laugh at, for sure. Especially a shotty with a single mod.
I'm going to try out some masterless "Ash" builds when I get home, though. I wanted to do that for some time, though this thread made me give it high priority =)
Edit: Hmm.. I'm thinking Juggler, Shottyman, Brute, Badass and Scavenger. Hehe... it may be bad... but it feels gooood.
"Masterless" is the key term here; it really opens up some potential... and mostly with the chainsaw. Shotguns big problem is armored enemies in late-game and shell scarcity; problems which MAD should address, but as discussed, doesn't.
Neither are problems for the chainsaw. Especially for the odd armored enemy that doesn't want to die - since that requires double-shotty blitzkrieg anyways, you may as well whip out the C-C-CHAINSAW and go to town. A piercing chainsaw is easy to make and does horrible, horrible things to anything you can get close to... and with Juggler, you can use rocket-jumps to close with thine foe very, very quickly. And leave again, if need be. I really need to try that!
I need to knock off a few Silver badges, which means winning a Challenge game or two. It wounds my pride to play on HNTR, AoMr is an RNG crap-shoot for the first five levels (and even then I don't know how to handle the new, improved Lost Souls and Pain Elementals,) and Fireangel is bugged... which leaves me no palatable options at this point. A crying shame AoSg disallows the chainsaw. It'd fit the spirit of the challenge so well. Real Man's Weapons. Knives, too.
-
which you can do with a single move
Iirc that was fixed and now shottyman reloads only one shell for combat/tactical/assault.
-
Iirc that was fixed and now shottyman reloads only one shell for combat/tactical/assault.
Oh, good point. Haven't played a shottyman build in 9.9.6 yet.
-
Elephant guns like shell boxes. A lot.
-
Just got to Demios Lv. 1 with an "Ash" build on HMP.
Wow.
-
Can you expound on the 'wow?'
-
A little OT, but I wonder if guaranteeing a power mod somewhere would throw off game balance too much. Far too many games I have hunted for just that elusive second power mod to make an elephant gun, only to be disappointed when I eventually have to chuck my lonely P-modded shotgun somewhere in Hell to make room for a spare armor or medpack.
As it is, you are guaranteed three A mods and one B mod from the CC and the Armory, with 2 lottery tickets waiting for you in the cubbyhole on the Armory. It would be nice if some other special level guaranteed a P mod because it is just about the most used mod in assemblies.
Maybe a new trait can be Tinker: you can attempt to change a mod in your inventory into another mod, with a 50% chance that it breaks and is destroyed. Or something like that.
-
Maybe a new trait can be Tinker: you can attempt to change a mod in your inventory into another mod, with a 50% chance that it breaks and is destroyed. Or something like that.
Replacement master for Scavenger yeah? :P
-
Replacement master for Scavenger yeah? :P
Yup, I had this thought after Game Hunter posted about possibly removing Scavenger and replacing with something else. That would be powerful even in non Ao100 games, I reckon. Though the downside does seem a little too much. Maybe you'll need to spend something to Tinker it with, maybe something like 1 stack of ammo and 1 medkit. Or something like that I reckon. Kinda like they are consumed in the process of your tinkering. Now this idea sounds like the Horadric Cube in D2...
-
It would be nice if some other special level guaranteed a P mod because it is just about the most used mod in assemblies.
Mortuary! Yay!
-
Can you expound on the 'wow?'
Thank you for the formal excuse to gush like a little girl with a new doll.
This build works. The immediate lesson is that Combat Shotguns are a completely different beast then Doubles, and Fin->Fin->Jug is to Combat Shotties as Rel->Rel->Sht is to Doubles. Furthermore, Juggler completely compensates for not having a Combat Shotgun until you find one (I didn't find any till the first level of Deimos.) It's costly in inventory space and time after-the-fact manually reloading, but being able to bust out shotgun after shotgun, instantly, with Juggler really saves your ass on early levels. That's really nice because getting past the first few levels is so often a huge pain-in-the-ass, waiting for the RNG to stop screwing you over till you've got a trait or two under your belt. Even better, Finesse is just as good as Reloader for early-game survival; since the guaranteed shotty on Phobos Entrance has a reload and fire time of 1.0, saving time in either category increases your effective damage output. Also, it gives you access to Whizkid early on as well, in case you stumble across some nice mods. On later levels, I know Juggler will replace Reloader - I found two Combat Shotguns on Deimos 1, giving me 5 extra shells on instantaneous tap when I need 'em.
Secondly, Rocket-Jumping is awesome. The 9.9.3 bug never let me play with it as much as I wanted, but now that I can, it's fantastic. I used it to fly through the hordes of Formers on the hard Chained Court and luckily landed right next to the Arena Master, who went down to my 'zerked Chainsaw with ease. The Hell Knights were pushovers. Most notably, the Lost Souls waiting in the wings on Phobos Anomaly are a real pain in the ass in this version. I figured I had their number this time; hit them with the Hell Staff and followed up with a double-shotgun blast... and yet I was still surrounded. Without a Phase device, I sat there, pondering my fate... and remembered the rocket-jump. Juggler gave me the launcher without suffering a Lost-Soul gangstabbing, and in one turn I blew up most of the Souls, flew all the way to the opposite door, opened it, stepped through, and closed it. Too bad, cacodemons! From there it was child's play to cornershoot the rest down.
Then I took on the Bruiser brothers. I just smacked them with Rockets until one got close to my corner, and I laid into him with the chainsaw, which worked pretty well. Then his brother came up behind him and started circling to attack me as well. 2v1 just wasn't happening... so I insta-switched and rocket-jumped away again, hitting them both with the blast. Then I just picked them off with rockets as they tried to close again.
So far I've gone Marine, Fin->Fin->Jug->Bru->Bad->Bru, which is working well. Since Finesse 2 and Juggler seem to cover all my shotgun-related needs so well, I'm seriously considering taking Berserker, then Vampyre (if I read this right, Vampyre gives +3 HP for any kill, not just ones made in melee,) both of which will mesh well with Badass (esp. another rank of it.) Or I could go with Hellrunner or Nails, I guess, to keep it masterless.
This is on HMP, no less, not a cake difficulty. I'm amazed at how flexible it is.
EDIT: The chainsaw as an instant secondary is great all-around. Many a time have I blasted a Baron point-blank, only to immediately eat an acid blast because the Baron was knocked back a few tiles. It's even worse with Arachnotrons. That's not a problem with the Chainsaw, and once I make it piercing it'll be even better.
-
...then Vampyre (if I read this right, Vampyre gives +3 HP for any kill, not just ones made in melee,)
Vampyre will only give health for melee kills.
-
And about a chainsaw, you can pull it with Juggler at any time you need by pressing zero key. I use to have an exotic in the swap slot, which you can't pull out of inventory with Juggler, but can swap to it with Z instantly, and used weapon slot to cycle through available assemblies or normal weapons.