Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Alpro on March 18, 2012, 06:01

Title: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Alpro on March 18, 2012, 06:01
From what i read here and on the wiki, there seem to be 5 build categories: melee, pistol, shotgun, rapid fire and survival. I suspect some archetypes work better for some classes than others, is this correct? Also, are all archetypes viable for all classes on all difficulty levels? And one more thing, are hybrid builds viable?

So far i won with a survival marine on ITYTD, a shotgun scout on HNTR and a rapid fire scout on HMP.

I'm ready to move on to something else now, maybe UV, though i really like HMP, where the luck factor has a smaller impact. What i have no idea about is how can a melee build survive past the first few levels? And even if that is possible, how do you approach Arachnotrons later on? Or am i supposed to still use a gun as a backup weapon? What about pistol builds, they look weak on paper compared to shotguns and rapid fire. I'd like to make a dual knife or dual pistol build, do i absolutely have to use Whizkid? This is something i haven't tried yet...
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Uranium on March 18, 2012, 06:23
In the early game, melee is probably the hardest way to play because of sergeants and their knockback, because you've got no way to consistently deal with them, I usually just make a run for the stairs until I get a chainsaw. After a melee player has the chainsaw, the idea is to remain in the berserk state for as long as is humanly possible. Berserk provides the best armour in the game, 60% to all resistances and increased movespeed, nothing else really comes close. Coupled with double melee damage and Brute 3, at level four/five, a melee player is probably going to be doing (4d6+9)x2. After he's got the Longinus Spear, he'll be doing (8d8+9)x2. Survival to a standard player is not being hurt. Survival to a melee player is killing everything so fast that there's nothing left to hurt you.

Master-trait wise, Marines have Vampyre, which is probably my favourite trait because it turns Pain Elementals into walking health and berserk machines. Leave a Pain Elemental until last, and you can enter the next level with 200% health and a zerk pack's worth of berserk.
Blademaster was favoured for Nightmare! melee runs because it allows you to kill enemies without giving anything else time to act, and it emphasises killing power rather than survival.
Malicious Blades blocks Berserker, which is why I don't use it, but if you're berserked (from a pack or skull) and wielding two chainswords that are B-modded, you're doing ((9d2+9)x2)x2, which really can add up. Couple this with MMB's resistances, and you realise why melee late-games are often already a foregone conclusion in humanity's favour.

edit: fixed typo, it's unlikely demons will want to 'heart' you, rather they want to hurt
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: spacedust on March 18, 2012, 06:46
I played lots of games recently in aiming for the malicious knives cross, so here's some quick tips on surviving the first few levels.

1) Giftdropping! This is probably the greatest tip for surviving the first few levels when you are a fledgling young one and likely to be dispatched by any old sergeant.

2) Run! Running lets you go toe to toe with slightly tougher enemies and not die.

3) If you're not opposed to a mixed build, ie saving melee only for late game and using something to survive the early game, try shotguns. Shotguns are reasonably effective on earlier levels even without the associated traits, and you can probably use a vanilla shotty until the Phobos Anomoly if you have one level of Reloader mixed in with your other melee traits
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: ZicherCZ on March 18, 2012, 08:33
If you want to go to UV, you may want to give a shot at Angel of Max Carnage. It is hard, but it will certainly hone your injury-avoiding skills. Recommended build from me: Scout going Cateye, Int2 ASAP. After you reach MCe, you are basically unstoppable, save for a very bad random spawn at the beginning of a level.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: ih8regin on March 18, 2012, 10:20
By the way people, do P mods over a chainsword make it 8d3? If so, it's better amping a chainsword with P instead of B once you're past WK2.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Creaphis on March 18, 2012, 13:31
According to the wiki, P mods increase the higher number value in a weapon's dice notation. In the case of the chainsword, this is the number of dice rather than the number of sides, so P and B mods should behave identically.

I say, give one chainsword a P mod, one a B mod and then give them nicknames.


Also, I'm learning that my character's "build" has almost nothing to do with the weapons I actually use on that character - at least not in the early game. Shotguns, chainguns and rocket launchers all have their places until you're proficient enough with one or two weapon types to drop the rest.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Ashannar on March 18, 2012, 14:43
I would say there are a few more builds than those listed in the OP.

One of the most powerful, in my opinion, is just to stock up on basic traits. Finesse, Hellrunner, Eagle Eye, Ironman, Reloader.. then you can go into a dual build.. get Shottyman and Triggerhappy, or Intuition and SoG, etc.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on March 18, 2012, 18:03
First of all, there are three kinds of defense.

Passive defense:
     
     Relies on so much armor/TaN/Iro/Bad that you can just walk into enemies fire.

     Pros: You don't have to play with as much skill, since you can take so much punishment.
     Cons: You usually don't have much offense to speak of, relies a lot on armors.
     Works well with: Vampyre, Army of the Dead, Survivalist, Entrenchment, Malicious Blades

Active defense

     Relies on high movespeed and dodges

     Pros: Doesn't rely as much on armor, extremely good vs bosses
     Cons: Autohit enemies are your worst nightmare. You don't have the durability to take their hits, and you can't dodge revs and viles.
     Works well with: Blademaster, Fireangel, Shottyhead, Gun Kata, Running Man

Tactical Defense

     Relies on player knowledge, listening for enemies, and cornershooting/radarshooting

     Pros: Extremely low trait cost, you can do this without any traits. Can be used to augment another defensive mode.
     Cons: Requires an extremely experienced player to do properly, one screw-up can doom you.
     Works well with: Ammochain, Sharpshooter, Bullet Dance, Cateye, Scavenger
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Alpro on March 18, 2012, 20:03
Thanks for the tips guys, i'll try to give a generic answer to all of your replies and once. I have no problems using a shotty until i'm ready to go melee. In fact, shotguns are always what carries me through the early levels, without one, i die quickly. Gift-dropping is something i yet have to try. I see Finesse, Hellrunner, Eagle Eye, Ironman and Reloader as survival traits, so no matter what kind of build you go for, you're most likely going to use one or more of these, right? The interesting part of tactical defense is that you get to stack it on top of passive and/or active defense and it increases with player experience. :)

So, a few more little questions...
No one mentioned anything about pistols, should i assume pistol-focused builds suck or they're just unpopular?
The assemblies system is confusing, it is one of the reasons i haven't tried Whizkid yet. How do I make one? Do i only have to put the proper mod packs on a proper weapon/armor? Do i have to put them in a specific order? And finally, at which point in the game should i get Whizkid, considering you don't find many mods in early game?
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Matt_S on March 18, 2012, 20:49
First of all, there are three kinds of defense.
Let me see if I can remember the way I heard it explained :)
Passive defense is standing around getting shot at.
Active defense is running around getting shot at.
Tactical defense is not getting shot at.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: thelaptop on March 18, 2012, 20:50
Let me see if I can remember the way I heard it explained :)
Passive defense is standing around getting shot at.
Active defense is running around getting shot at.
Tactical defense is not getting shot at.
More like passive defense is not knowing when you will get shot and not caring, active defense is not knowing when you will get shot but caring, tactical defense is knowing when you will get shot and caring.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Deathwind on March 18, 2012, 23:31
pistol builds can be some of the strongest but they can also be some of the hardest to get started because the pistol is so weak without the traits. Also the new lost soul bullet resistance REALLY hurts pistol builds.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: ih8regin on March 18, 2012, 23:37
in case of dedicated pistol builds, that is, AoMr-resreicted, yes they are very hard to pull off. And you basically need all your traits in SoG at once, since the firepower demand grows ridiculously fast on anything but HNTR (at least for me). With less restricted builds you can start off with shotgun from the very first sergeant you meet, and hold up pistols while not having at least Dualgunner (if not going for MSs which blocks Dualgunner), so shotgunning through early levels will be the main way for pistoleer to kill prior to everything else.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: spacedust on March 19, 2012, 00:34
Giftdropping! this will be your best ally in surviving early levels when you are still a young Doomguy. Practice this on Phobos Level 1 (the starting level) until you can get it done right. The concept is really simple but you'll find out how much difference it makes to survivability when they're not shooting at you, and instead trying to trade punches with you. For more information watch Gam Hunter's videos.

I always feel like the most evil Santa in the world when doing it though - "here's a nice medpack and I'm going to put it behind the door, come get your present..." then BOOOM-chick!
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Ander Hammer on March 20, 2012, 05:29
More like passive defense is not knowing when you will get shot and not caring, active defense is not knowing when you will get shot but caring, tactical defense is knowing when you will get shot and caring.

And then there's berserker defense, which is knowing when you will get shot but not caring.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Alpro on March 23, 2012, 05:32
Well i've progressed. Made it to level 80 on Ao100 HMP and died stupidly as i didn't check my health. Ironically, i was carrying 20 large med packs. Malicious blades with dual chainswords and nanoskin armor is ridiculously overpowered, as you shrug off blows after blows, rockets after rockets. Thats fine though, i've kicked thier arses so hard during the last 65 floors and i was getting tired of this character anyway. I don't care about badges, i just wanted to try something else, so way to go. Now I know how powerful melee can be. Thanks again for the tips guys. :)
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: skarczew on March 23, 2012, 06:32
If you seek for fun, try making glass cannon builds instead :P .
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: ultimate26 on March 23, 2012, 08:10
What does a glass cannon build look like?
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Uranium on March 23, 2012, 09:04
Glass cannon builds are builds that deal fuckloads of damage but have no or very little defense.
i.e. Ammochain using your spare traits not getting Iro/TaN but instead getting SoB/Fin/HR to ramp up the damage.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: skarczew on March 23, 2012, 09:18
Or something around: Pistol(s) & SoG & SoB, may be Dualgunner as well.
Add Tactical Armor and Tactical Boots on top of that :) .
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Klear on March 23, 2012, 09:29
I'm trying to pass AoHu with such a build, but I usually die before I can move away from shotguns, so the cannon aspect is lacking. It's more like glass nerfgunner.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: skarczew on March 23, 2012, 09:40
Well, AoHu may need a different approach.
Typical glass cannon can tank few weaker hits. AoHu cannot tank almost anything.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Klear on March 23, 2012, 09:44
Well, I decided that since I have yet to beat AoHu, I might as well try for Untouchable Medal/Cross at the same time.
I think I can do it, too. I usually only die when I stop concentrating (which is, unfortunately, often during a good run)
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: ultimate26 on March 23, 2012, 12:25
I guess thats what i usually specialize on.

Tech

FIN-Jug-SOB-SOB then depending on what i find
 TH-TH-EE/TAN
or

HR-HR-DM
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Ashannar on March 24, 2012, 02:15
Too bad active defense is kind of a joke. It doesn't work that well beyond HMP. It's something you do to make your armor last a little longer. Not something you can base your build around.

That said, I usually take some hellrunner just to help deal with cybie. That is, unless I find some really good melee resistance early on.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: AlterAsc on March 24, 2012, 03:59
Too bad active defense is kind of a joke. It doesn't work that well beyond HMP.
I don't know but HR really helps me on N!.But ofc tactical defence is more imponant.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Ashannar on March 24, 2012, 12:47
Yeah, hellrunner is great, but more for the movement speed, since it allows you to position yourself optimally for tactical defense. It's also mitigation for when you blindly stumble across a monster; there's less chance they'll get a first attack.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: spacedust on March 30, 2012, 00:18
Yeah, hellrunner is great, but more for the movement speed, since it allows you to position yourself optimally for tactical defense. It's also mitigation for when you blindly stumble across a monster; there's less chance they'll get a first attack.

It's true, it's true. The cornerstone of Doom RL is cornershooting. I remember reading a guide long ago saying that the best way to learn tactical defense was to do Hell's Arena repeatedly until you could do it without taking any damage. Running to take cover behind corners is really important for doing that well.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on March 31, 2012, 21:59
If you look at my mortems, you'll see that I play glass cannons almost exclusively. I rely on avoidance/sheer killing power so much, that if I take any defensive traits at all, I take them very late. For example, my standard build is SoB->SoB->TH->TH->Rel->Rel->MAc->Fin->Fin->WK->WK->Fin->HR->HR->HR->DM->SoB->SoB->SoB

Overall, I've found that on harder difficulties, the main thing is that you can't let yourself get shot at. You have to kill enemies first, and then that requires that all your effort goes to killing as efficiently as possible.
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: Ashannar on April 01, 2012, 00:38
I'm curious if you still apply this strategy to challenges like AoMr on the harder difficulties. Do you just go masterless so you can stack SoG and SoB? What about radar shooting? With just a pistol, do you fit int in there somewhere?
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on April 02, 2012, 06:29
For AoMr, I usually use Sharpshooter so that the damage is really consistent, and I can immediately go for Int after Sharpshooter. Mostly, when I have those 3 levels of EE I can radar-shoot a lot. However, the same basic strategy of massive offense applies. If you look at my UV AoHu pistols/no SoG/max 1 mod game, I still held to the same basic archetype of damage and avoidance. In that game, I used Int->Int->SoB->SoB->TH->MCe->SoB->Fin->Fin->WK->WK->SoB->SoB->Fin->HR.

I won't pretend that using a offense build makes things particularly easy if you can't reliably avoid damage, but it does help a lot on the harder challenges where you're not going to be able to block/dodge all the attacks coming at you anyway. For example, on AoHu you get a default 10HP. Then, you have to ask yourself what will save you more damage coming in - killing enemies a turn faster or having an extra 2 hp from a level of Ironman.

Overall, I'd say that offense is your best defense, along with move/firespeed. 
Title: Re: Classes, builds & difficulty?
Post by: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 06:42
seems that it's more of "Speed is King" here, at least for me, if I can back off a mancubus before he shoots me, I'm somewhat safe. For this reason I play MCe mostly lately, but it seems that I really need a bit of EE even for that build, otherwise they cross the distance and return fire.