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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: punkbohemian on April 01, 2012, 18:42

Title: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 01, 2012, 18:42

I've been playing the game for the past few days and am starting to conceptualize a pistol build. One of the elements about which I am considering is whether or not to dual wield. I would think that dual wielding would be better as there is more firepower, but I've read a few things about a Technician sharpshooter build that is just as effective, if not more so, with a single pistol (though I'm not sure how that works). Not to mention, DW also causes a lot of problems with weapon switching. With the character I'm running now, I have two pistols and a missile launcher. When I can switch to the launcher easy enough, but switching back to DW pistols requires a bunch of inventory juggling that involves dropping items if my inventory is full. In any event, I wonder if DW is worth it.

Random questions:

1) What does dodgemaster do exactly? I'm not sure I'm entirely sure how movement works outside of me pressing a button and moving in that direction.

2) How do you reload -while- moving? Is it something automatic that happens when you have an appropriate trait?

3) Running Man seems to suggest I can run and shoot at the same time, but I'm not sure how that is possible.

Thanks.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Creepy on April 01, 2012, 22:25

Technician's single pistol build works because the pistol damage is always maximized. A technician is also likely to have a powerfully modded pistol; if you have even a single powermod on your gun, you will do knockback with every shot against nearly every enemy, and will almost never miss because of Eagle Eye. SoG improves firing rate, so you'll put a pile of shots into anyone before they manage to get close and keep them at bay at the same time. Being a single weapon means you don't need both hands, so you can use an ammo box for rapid reloads, which reduces one of the biggest problems in pistol builds. The build takes time to hit it's peak, but when you're there it gives you a hideous amount of control over the battlefield. You can literally push around anything short of the Cyberdemon or Spidermind.

DW hits the sweet spot earlier; DW is available to anyone as early as level 3, instead of level 7. You double the damage you've been doing, right there. It doesn't come as a single attack, so no pushing enemies around the battlefield, but you can more easily KILL them at that point than a Sharpshooter could.

Anyway.

1) Dodgemaster: If you move in a direction other than directly toward/directly away from an opponent that shoots at you, they can miss based on your dodging chances (and some otherstuff). Dodgemaster makes it so they WILL miss, automatically. Just move as you want, and as long as it wasn't in the direct line the enemy was shooting in, you'll be considered dodging automatically.

2) Reloading while you move requires Shottyman (for shotguns), and it's automatic. Otherwise you reload by pressing 'r'.

3) "Running" is essentially a power-up mode you get by pressing tab. You get extra dodge chance and take less time moving between tiles, but your accuracy and melee-attack damage go down. Eventually you get tired and things go back to normal, and can't use Running again until you either get to the next level or use a healing item. This is not the same as just moving normally.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 01, 2012, 22:44

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 01, 2012, 18:42

With the character I'm running now, I have two pistols and a missile launcher. When I can switch to the launcher easy enough, but switching back to DW pistols requires a bunch of inventory juggling that involves dropping items if my inventory is full.

You can equip from the inventory screen (just highlight the item and press Enter or press the letter of the slot) to swap weapons faster, or from the equipment screen, highlight the item and press Tab to swap the equipped item out for one in your backpack.  If you already have all the items equipped/in you backpack, you don't have to drop anything to switch equipment.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 00:26

Ok, so I've worked out a couple MSs build possibilities and could use a critique. Here they are:

SoG>SoG>SoG>EE>EE>EE>MSs>Int>Int>Wk>Wk

EE>EE>Int>Int>SoG>SoG>SoG>EE>MSs>Wk>Wk

I've actually been playing with the first one and haven't been able to get past the armory. By that point, I'm easily getting the shit kicked out of me. I even died in the Arena once. That's why I thought of the second build. The rush to Int2 is for the tactical advantage. I do realize I lose a good deal of firepower putting off SoG for so long, but I don't see any other way to get an edge. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Ashannar on April 02, 2012, 00:37

Depends. Are you playing angel of marksmanship? If not, don't shun the other weapons. Your shotgun will generally be your bread and butter weapon for the first half of the game. Get comfortable with radar shooting (that is, firing your shotgun into the distance to potentially tag enemies beyond your sight range). The shotgun is the best at this because of its spread. Once you hit an enemy, it will generally make its way right toward you, at which point you can take it on with your pistols once it comes into view.

You might try Gun Kata or Pistol Dance, as well. Dual gunner makes a world of difference. As for your builds, they're both all right. Both have their advantages. Just keep in mind their strengths. In your first build, you generally want to stand your ground and fire fire fire at enemies, because firing your weapon is what you're the fastest at. If you move around too much, you'll lose that advantage. The second one is more of a sniper build. You'll want to plink away at enemies from beyond sight range. Aimed shot is a good choice here for the extra chance to hit (alt fire for most pistols).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 00:41

man, how do you get past Arena? (Shotguns? If yes, then what should I do if I'm on AoMr?)

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 00:54

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Depends. Are you playing angel of marksmanship?

Yeah, I unlocked it, so I figure I might as well since I'm toying with a pistol build.

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You might try Gun Kata or Pistol Dance, as well. Dual gunner makes a world of difference.

My original plans involved a GK and DW build, but I'm finding myself in a lot of situations where GK wouldn't be any help (i.e. narrow hallways). As for DG, I figured that since its usefulness peters out in the long run, it wasn't really worth the investment.

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In your first build, you generally want to stand your ground and fire fire fire at enemies, because firing your weapon is what you're the fastest at.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing, and getting smacked around. Even by sarges with shottys, the knockback messes up my position and they tend not to follow. So, I have to charge in again, sometimes taking another hit.

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man, how do you get past Arena?

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I have. I think that, except for the one time I did die, I skipped out of the final round. When I did stick around, I was using medpacks like every turn just to stay alive, though I still bit it in the end.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 00:57

Quote from: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 00:41

man, how do you get past Arena? (Shotguns? If yes, then what should I do if I'm on AoMr?)

AoMr, at least on lower difficulties, isn't really any different then how you would do it normally.  You want to learn to corner shoot (just like you would with a shotgun).  By the time you get to Arena you should have SoG 2 or be close to it and by that point it's simply a matter of emptying your clip into them without them hitting you (again same strategy as you use for a shotgun just obviously the shotgun needs reloading every shot).

Kinda like this:

O
.  XXXX
.  X
.  X
.  @

With SoG 2 you should be able to kill a Caco or Demon before they get to you.  If not just hit Tab to start running and circle the pillar.

Of course all this assumes SoG is what you pick up early on (it's what I would recommend).  If you felt like you had to get EE early then you're going to have to do alot more running and firing blindly into darkness since you likely won't be killing them as they walk toward you nearly as easily.

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 00:54

As for DG, I figured that since its usefulness peters out in the long run, it wasn't really worth the investment.

Umm what makes you think DG loses usefulness?  Unless you're going Sharpshooter (in which case DG isn't allowed anyway) DG is plenty useful...

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 01:01

yeah, I did pass Arena on HNTR and HMP AoMr (once each), but so far am constantly failing at UV.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Ashannar on April 02, 2012, 01:05

It sounds like you're not using tactical defense, because you're saying things like "MGK doesn't help because I'm often in hallways" and that you get shot at a lot. Especially if you have intuition 2, there's no reason to get shot, ever, unless you get double- or triple-teamed from multiple directions. There are many ways to position yourself such that you can shoot at enemies but they cannot shoot you back.

Also, consider tagging an enemy with the help of int 2 and then retreating to suitable cover. If the monster loses interest and wanders off before you get him where you want him, you may have to tag him again to drag him where you want. This is child's play with int 2, and possible without if you have patience.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Creepy on April 02, 2012, 01:11

Quote

I've actually been playing with the first one and haven't been able to get past the armory

With a couple of levels of EE the Armory is very easy, and you'll probably have that much by the time you get to it. You don't even really have to walk very far; hole up in the doorway of one of the buildings with the former humans in it and start shooting blindly down the hallway until the screaming stops. Since the Armory almost entirely a single tile-wide straight path, you can kill nearly everything in the level without having to actually be anywhere near them. If you're lucky one of the critters on the far end will let out the Arachnotrons, and you can kill them along with everything else. If not you can always blast open the doors and boogy back to cover, and then go back to shooting down the hall. Either way, the level isn't much more than a shooting gallery.

Never underestimate the power of shooting at targets in the black. Tripping over a map and being able to see all the baddies makes a level dead simple if you have the accuracy to start sniping.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 01:14

Quote from: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 01:01

yeah, I did pass Arena on HNTR and HMP AoMr (once each), but so far am constantly failing at UV.

Have you watched Game Hunter's videos (there is a sticky on the forum with a link to his youtube page)?  Those might help you out.  He has both a AoMr UV Gun Kata run and a AoLT HMP Sharpshooter run.  If nothing else they'll give you an idea of how the builds work (to an extent).  Of course both are slightly outdated (they were made in version 9.9.4) but still the main idea behind how it works stays the same (and both get you past Arena with nothing but a pistol).  He has tutorials and such as well (again a bit outdated) so if that interests you by all means check them out.  I enjoyed watching them when I was first starting to play the game (heck who am I kidding I still enjoy watching them they are entertaining).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 01:20

AoLT pistol run is likely easier, even if you get stringent with the ammo chain, because that boost of 20% is a great lot. Still, NO I wasn't watching them yet, mainly because being behind a proxy while being at these forums, and spending my free time (not much of it lately) actually playing :) And while I might do with MGK base (maybe taking HR as second trait, as it's needed for MGK anyway), I am targetting self to MSs as I don't yet understand how to get that high without straying off the build path.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 01:27

Up to Hell's Arena the Gun Kata run isn't any different then a Sharpshooter run (he just gets SoGs, no HR or DG or anything) so you can still learn how to do UV Hell's Area with a MSs build from the run (since up to that point they are exactly the same).  Still it's up to you.  If you can't or don't want to watch then that's fine.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Ashannar on April 02, 2012, 01:37

The most disappointing thing to me, as someone who really got into this game in 0.9.9.6, is that you can't just fire into the middle of a given level and kill everything like in Game Hunter's tutorials since the AI has been changed. I suppose I should be thankful that the game is more challenging now. :)

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: ih8regin on April 02, 2012, 01:49

well, don't just forget that a scout has a 10% speed boost, so playing MGK is somewhat easier in the beginning than playing technician for MSs. While it's remediable with a T mod while I likely get at the start as a techie, at least for shooting speed, I need an A mod (on an armor, since no boots prior to Phobos-5 or Phobos-4) to get the requested effect for moving speed, while the scout can just remove the armor and run-run-run.

(Offtop: Had a lot of fun yesterday when I've got me a Necroarmor out of Vaults while playing UV, and triple HR put me at 0.38 per walk - WOW that's what I call fast! Nuclear rifles FTW!)

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 01:56

I think you're really stretching there about how big a difference that really makes (especially in context of learning corner/radar shooting which is all you really need to beat Hell's Arena with any class).  And if we're getting specific like that then Technicians being able to quickly use items can allow them to survive Hell's Arena easily too...

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: AlterAsc on April 02, 2012, 02:11

But you can startscum with Tech to instantly get yourself a speedloaer.
Also i believe it's not crucial to beat Arena on AoMr.P-mod and ammochain can be useful, but it's not as helping as RL with lots of rockets.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: 2DeviationsOut on April 02, 2012, 06:34

Just a note on my builds: When playing pistols, unless going for a SoG-less game, then I'll go straight for Sharpshooter without any sidetracks, and then either go for Int/WK depending on the number/kind of mods I have and the difficulty. I'll typically go for Int before WK in a Sharpshooter build on N!, because I know that I'll get XP fast enough to grab the WK levels before it gets too late in the game.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 08:05

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You want to learn to corner shoot...

Oh, I'm definitely corner shooting, but it doesn't seem to work all the time, especially against shottys (which knock me out of my corner).

Quote

Especially if you have intuition 2, there's no reason to get shot, ever...

I don't have Int2, I've been playing with the SoG>SoG>SoG>EE>EE>EE>MSs>Int>Int plan and usually die before I even get MSs.

Quote

hole up in the doorway of one of the buildings with the former humans in it and start shooting blindly down the hallway until the screaming stops.

It's possible to still hit things that far outside of your vision range? I know the armory just goes straight down, but I figured everything just automatically missed at a certain point. Also, what do you do about the Shambler?

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Have you watched Game Hunter's videos

I started to, but they're kind of long and I just want to play. :P  I'd rather just ask a few specific questions and try to figure it out for myself.

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well, don't just forget that a scout has a 10% speed boost, so playing MGK is somewhat easier in the beginning than playing technician for MSs. While it's remediable with a T mod while I likely get at the start as a techie, at least for shooting speed, I need an A mod (on an armor, since no boots prior to Phobos-5 or Phobos-4) to get the requested effect for moving speed, while the scout can just remove the armor and run-run-run.

The thing that turned me off of MGK has to do with the armor of enemies later in the game. MGK and MSs have comparable base damage potentials, but MSs does it in fewer shots, which means less is soaked up by armor. As for running, I'm always hesitant to go to that mode. It only lasts for so long, and you can only do it once per level (or burn a healing item to recharge it).

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But you can startscum with Tech to instantly get yourself a speedloaer.

I almost always get the speedloader mods to start. I always save them for something better, though. Since I rarely have to reload in combat, I don't see the value of burning two mods that gives me an ordinary pistol that reloads faster.

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Just a note on my builds: When playing pistols, unless going for a SoG-less game, then I'll go straight for Sharpshooter without any sidetracks, and then either go for Int/WK depending on the number/kind of mods I have and the difficulty.

Yeah, that was my plan, but I'm consistently getting ganked before I even get to MSs.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 02, 2012, 08:26

I think dualgun build is easier for new players. You don't have to go for any of the masters if you don't want to. Extra SoG and/or EE, SoB, Finesse can make you a killing machine even without master traits. It's all about shooting incredible ammounts of bullets extremely fast.

In any case - if shotguns knock you out of the corner, you are doing something wrong. Stuff outside your sight range has additional 50% chance to miss, but it's worth shooting the few bullets into the dark if you know there is something there. As for Shambler, kill him as fast as you can, cornershooting if possible, but in any case keep the bullets pouring. That's never done me no harm. And speedloader is definitely worth it in the beginning. It's quite possible to go through the game with just it (or dual).
If you get killed before you can get your master, saving mods isn't probably that improtant.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 08:45

In the 10 minutes since my last post, I just got killed at level 3 (my lowest level kill ever), mainly from getting pelted by shotguns that were outside of my visual range. Do sarges have a longer visual range than me? I spent the entire time moving in such a way to be in a good corner shot position, and I'm only playing on Normal difficulty, and I get iced when I'm only Level 3.

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I think dualgun build is easier for new players. You don't have to go for any of the masters if you don't want to. Extra SoG and/or EE, SoB, Finesse can make you a killing machine even without master traits. It's all about shooting incredible ammounts of bullets extremely fast.

Come to think of it, I think SoB might offset the damage penalty that comes from DG against armored opponents (compared to MSs). However, while you don't have to deal with masters, I would think it takes more traits in the long run. Sure, it only takes 3 traits to get to DG (versus 7 for MSs), but when you add in the SoBs, extra SoG, and Finesse (which you have to do for Whiz Kid) or EEs, you're passing MSs easily.

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In any case - if shotguns knock you out of the corner, you are doing something wrong.

Clearly, I am. I've read the guides on it, though. And, I'm doing what the guides say.

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And speedloader is definitely worth it in the beginning.

Really, how? I just don't understand. It's only good for combat reloading, of which I do rarely, if at all. Otherwise it's an ordinary pistol.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 02, 2012, 09:02

I find MSs a bit harder than Dualgunner builds. The second gun simply doubles your damage.
One could say that 3*SoG is better than 2*SoG and DG when it comes to ammo efficiency, but the latter is better for DPS ... and DPS is the thing that you need.

Oh, and instead of typical weak "dev made" :P trait builds you can try my version of glass cannon (it is somewhere in mortems now).
As for Shambler, with a good positioning and decent build you can kill him without getting any damage.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 02, 2012, 09:42

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 08:45

In the 10 minutes since my last post, I just got killed at level 3 (my lowest level kill ever), mainly from getting pelted by shotguns that were outside of my visual range. Do sarges have a longer visual range than me? I spent the entire time moving in such a way to be in a good corner shot position, and I'm only playing on Normal difficulty, and I get iced when I'm only Level 3.

Standard enemies have the same sight range as you, cyberdemon sees farther and melee enemies (lost souls/demons) see less.

In any case, if you encounter a sergeant who shoots you and knocks you back out of sight, do not approach him again. Either shoot him blindly (and let him come to you) or retreat behind cover and he will follow you. If you hide behind a door (diagonally from the door), he will enter the doorway and be in melee range, which means that he won't be able to shoot and will only use a weak melee attack that is additionally prone to miss.

You can also lure formers by giftdropping: eg. drop a medkit in a doorway and stand aside so that the enemy will come into your melee range. Formers and knights/barons (btw, for dealing with barons this is not the best idea) will go to and pick up all medkits, phase devices and a single armour unless they know where you are, so you can use all of the above to lure them to you. Then give them a faceful of bullets/shotgun shells from point blank range.
BTW, you obviously have to wait until a former wanders nearby the lure and comes for it, so in case you don't know, you can wait using the run command and then wait. The waiting will stop when an enemy appears, or after some time.

One more thing - learn to use the pistol's alternate fire, which is aimed shot. Until you get eagle eye, it can be used to get an almost certain hit at long distances, though the shot takes more time so the enemies have longer to retaliate. If you are facing a single former/imp and you already hurt him, you can use it to almost guarantee the kill. Once you have dualgunner, you can use aimed shot to dispatch weak enemies in a single shot at long ranges (and if you are facing single enemies, i can't hurt much to use it in mid-close range as well, just to be sure).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 10:06

Ok, so now I'm thinking either:

SoG>SoG>DG>EE>EE>Int>Int>WK>WK
for a Tech

or

SoG>SoG>DG>Int>Int>Fin>Fin>Wk>Wk
for a Scout

btw, does the scout's speed bonus apply to all actions or just moving?

I'm thinking the scout might be the stronger option especially if the speed bonus applies to attacks. First, you get Int sooner. Second, I think Fin might be stronger for pistols than EE. Fin2 is 30% more lead in the air, while EE2 is just 17% more accurate at best, less so at close range or if you're aiming.

I wonder which is more valuable with either build, SoG3 or SoB. SoB is basically just SoG, but without the speed bonus (though SoG only applies to pistols), right?

In any event, after this, I'm not sure if I'd be better off going for MGK (HR>HR>DM>GTK), maxing out SoG and maybe getting some SoB (SoG>SoG>SoG) for max damage potential, or maybe even shooting for Badass (TaN>TaN>Bad) for endurance. I'm guessing the SoG approach is stronger since with Int2, I should need to be dodging much, but I don't really know.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 02, 2012, 10:30

I went through my mortem archive and it seems I got marksman silver as a scout with SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->Int->Int->Fin->Fin->
That is a surprise to me, I though I only played marines back then, but whatever =)

Looks like I didn't bother with EE at all and went for high damage output. It could work for you as well, though I warn you that I was a lot less experineced than today, which isn't much.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 02, 2012, 10:36

@punkbohemian:
You are doing it wrong, a bit.

Here is my build sketch (take in mind, it was thought for UV):

SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->EE->SoB->SoB->HR->HR->DM->Int->SoG->SoG->TH->MCe

You need as many SoG as you can. It is no-brainer: it decreases fire time and increases damage done.
One EE is here, because it is simply needed. While sparing your ammo, it makes enemies die faster as well.
SoB was taken there for even higher damage output. 3*SoG and 2*SoB make enemies move backwards from impact.

2*HR and DM are for cybie and increased movement speed of a Scout.

Int is useful, and already on the way to MCe.
Another 2 points into SoG make you DPS monster.

TH is here because devs think that machine gunners do care about pinpoint accuracy at a great distances. They also think that MCe is a chainfire trait.

MCe is just a cherry on a top. With that your vision will exceed everything (I am not sure about JC, though) and you will be able to nail monsters to the opposite side of the screen.

You can get rid of HR and get MCe, second Int faster.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: AlterAsc on April 02, 2012, 11:33

Or you can just go with SoG-SoG-DG-SoG-EE-SoB-SoB-SoB-smth-smth-smth-SoG-SoG-SoB-SoB.
Used such build on AoMr UV(played Marine, but it doesn't matter).Just plain basic offensive build to kill anything as fast as possible.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 12:14

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 08:05

The thing that turned me off of MGK has to do with the armor of enemies later in the game. MGK and MSs have comparable base damage potentials, but MSs does it in fewer shots, which means less is soaked up by armor.

I can't say I understand this.  Dual Gunner especially early on (but even toward the end likely) does more damage then Sharpshooter, simply by virtue of SoG damage bonus being applied to both shots.  I mean just considering the math a basic pistol is 2d4 (avg 5 max 8) +3 for SOG3 is 16 average with DG vs 11 with MSs.  If the enemy has 1 armor it's 14 vs 10, 2 armor is 12 vs 9, 3 armor is 10 vs 8, 4 armor is 8 vs 7, 5 armor is 6 vs 6 (note that even the Cyberdemon doesn't have 5 armor, most enemies even late game only have 2 natural armor).  Late game you're able to pick up SoG5 which again benefits DG quite a bit.  Of course there are various advantages to MSs, such as using less ammo, better knockback, and such but lacking in damage (late game or not) isn't usually a fault of DG specifically...  Might I ask what caused you to not like DG much?

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 02, 2012, 12:21

I'd say a lot of players overestimate enemy armour. I know I did.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 12:54

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Might I ask what caused you to not like DG much?

I never did the math myself. I probably should have, as the info I've read has said that MSs was stronger due to armor late in the game. I wouldn't have wanted to go with a DG, just to consistently hit a brick wall later on. But, what you say makes more sense than what I've read before.

I just died again, with a DG, on the bruiser level, though not by the Bruiser brothers. Coming out of that first room, I was mobbed by lost souls and that Cacodemon. I've done this before, though it was always with a TaN character. My DG didn't stand a chance. I let the Cacodemon pelt me with fireballs, as it also would take out some lost souls. However, I couldn't heal/deal damage fast enough to last more than a few turns. I didn't think I'd do well, but thought I would last longer since I was able to take out the Arena Master without a scratch.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 02, 2012, 13:01

It's best to run from this room like a coward and then cornershoot the bastards at your leisure. Tactical armour helps. Not wearing the red armour helps even more. A phase device (and a tiny bit of luck) helps most of all.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 13:31

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Tactical armour helps. Not wearing the red armour helps even more.

I would have thought it would be the other way around being that red offers more protection. According to the wiki, Tactical offers no protection and just bumps move speed (which isn't terribly valuable when corner shooting). I've actually been planning to save mods until I could build some red power armor. What makes tactical armor so good?

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: thelaptop on April 02, 2012, 13:33

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 13:31

What makes tactical armor so good?

Raw speed.  And the bonus to dodging.

This means that for the same number of actions it takes to get out of the room, you vastly improve your chances of not getting hit, as compared to getting hit each time (with red armour) and taking slightly reduced damage.

Personally, I only resort to red armour when I realise there is no way that I can get out of the place.  As they say, discretion is the better part of valour -- not getting hit >>> standing there and taking damage like a boss.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 02, 2012, 13:41

The advantage of MSs over other builds is mostly the fact that you have an easy access to Whizkid, which can result in a very nice assembly.

Ahh, Bruiser level, with famous now - overpowered - Lost Souls. If you play non-AoMr you can blast them with shotgun or rocket jump to hideout.
If it is AoMr, then you can try phasing out. Alternatively, you can outrun most of them. Just remove anything that slows you down and remember about Running mode.
It is good to put some speed-increasing-mods on equipment - or create certain assemblies.

As a matter of fact, I was running with naked Scout through this ambush, with pretty good results.

And don't forget about stuff like Hellwave / Shockwave pack, it is better to use it there rather than die.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 02, 2012, 13:51

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 13:31

I've actually been planning to save mods until I could build some red power armor. What makes tactical armor so good?

None of the mods needed for tactical boots / armor is used for the power armor.

Personally I think that it is good to have both types of equipment. There are times when you need to tank and there are times when you need to run (e.g. Tactical equipment is good when facing Mastermind, but against Mancubi level I would rather wear Fireproof / Power Armor).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 13:53

With Lost Souls running at 220% speed I'm not as big a fan of the whole "strip naked and run" idea.  Don't get me wrong I still recommend running out of the room (either back the way you came or forward out the other door) and then dealing with them (perferably with a double shotgun blast to the face if possible) but a bit of armor isn't without merit if your character isn't very fast normally.  Even a simple green/blue armor will help with the damage you take (though it might mean a couple more hits on the way out).  Red is a bit overkill though as lost souls don't hit that hard (plus it slows you down alot more then green armor does).

I guess to sum up, is 1 protection worth a -5% speed hit when the enemies already move at 220%?  It seems like it should be but maybe I'm wrong.  Or lets think of it this way.  How many more hits are you going to take by moving at 160% move speed (Tac Armor + Tac Boots + Running) vs 145% move speed (No Armor + Tac Boots + Running) vs 140% move speed (Green Armor + Tac Boots + Running).  I honestly don't know.  Of course having both tac armor and tac boots might be a bit much since that is four agility mods...

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 02, 2012, 15:12

The style is the most important thing =) !

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Matt_S on April 02, 2012, 15:28

What I did for the lost souls in my sharpshooter run (and, something I forgot about at the time, it'll only work effectively with Technicians because of their item usage speed), is I spammed my Arena Master's staff, using my remaining small med-packs to let me reuse it.  It'll take a lot of used because of their fire resistance (hitting them with multiple explosions helps a bit), but I didn't have any other plan and it ended up working out fine.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 02, 2012, 15:38

Quote

If it is AoMr, then you can try phasing out. Alternatively, you can outrun most of them. Just remove anything that slows you down and remember about Running mode.
It is good to put some speed-increasing-mods on equipment - or create certain assemblies.

Made Tac armor, but couldn't find a single set of boots. In any case, I took another shot, I was surrounded 1 turn after the ambush sprung and dead two turns later trying to get back to the spawn point. I didn't have any phase devices either. Five characters in a row now have died at this point. I don't think it's reasonably possible without either a phase device, or a maxed out (at this point) move -and- a non-surrounding spawn.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Murkglow on April 02, 2012, 15:48

I know it is possible without a phase device or maxed speed (every time I've done it I don't use either of those methods, I don't tend to wear tac armor in that fight or anything).  Then again I've never been surrounded entirely (often I am surrounded on 7 of 8 sides but there is usually a direction I can move), maybe I'm just lucky?  *Shrug*  Still that is probably going to be one of the harder parts of an AoMr run, no two ways about it.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 03, 2012, 02:00

Are you sure you were running? That should have given you enough speed to escaped with just a few scratches.
Then again, I think I haven't played AoMr with the new soul AI.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Ashannar on April 03, 2012, 04:07

Another tip is to make sure you start running before the walls drop. You wouldn't think it'd make a big difference, but it does since it mitigates the distance of their initial move.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 03, 2012, 05:27

Quote

Are you sure you were running? That should have given you enough speed to escaped with just a few scratches.
Then again, I think I haven't played AoMr with the new soul AI.

Those bastards are fast. There's no way I could ever outrun one of them, even with max speed. I hate lost souls with a passion. I'm planning to build an energy pistol when I find the mods, if only for those bastards.

This has me thinking of another tactical consideration. That is, second weapon vs. ammo chain. One lets you switch between damage types, the other gives you almost instant reloads. Even on AoMr, having a solid pistol as a main piece and energy pistol for appropriate situations could be pretty handy.

Quote

Another tip is to make sure you start running before the walls drop.

I had thought of that, but I figured it wouldn't help much. I'll have to give it a shot in my current game (which I just started...again).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 03, 2012, 05:45

Try investing a point into hellrunner. You'll probably want to have dodgemaster before cybie.

I've recently put quite some time into research of how to pass the anomaly on AoHu (10 HP max, so you really don't want to take a scratch) here (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,5476.0.html).

You can see the time it takes you to move on the character information screen (@). Note that the number changes when you enter running mode.
I know for a fact that you can pass the first room in the anomaly if you have (while running) speed 0,38 without taking a single hit. That may be hard to achieve in builds not made for running, but I believe that if you are a tad slower, you should survive the experience.

BTW, you must go towards the door you came from. The other one is closer, but you have to open the door, plus the lost souls spawn closer to it, not to mention the cacodemons.

In any case, there is often a phase device you can use instead, I believe I found it in about half of my games.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Ander Hammer on April 03, 2012, 06:39

Quote from: Klear on April 03, 2012, 05:45

The other one is closer, but you have to open the door

Open it the way men do: with a gun.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: ih8regin on April 03, 2012, 07:19

One of the tricks there are, you can shoot prior to ever triggering the ambush, and you will blast that door open. While I personally would like to make it closeable, so say I whack them souls/demons back and close the door in their face. But with AoMr you're IMHO better to blast it open.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 03, 2012, 07:42

Yeah, I know. I usually prefer to keep the door closable, and to barricade myself in a room with healing available. There's still the matter of lost souls spawning closer to the right door and that the cacodemons will be able to attack you as well, but that might be advantageous in ridding yourself of the lost souls. I only tried it in AoHu recently, where the left door was definitely the way to go, since any damage was potentialy deadly.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: AlterAsc on April 03, 2012, 08:22

One of the ways is wear red armor and take Ber(or be in berserk through berserk pack) and rocket jump.You'll take 1 dmg from the jump(if you're on AoHu), kill some of the lost souls and no longer be surrounded.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 03, 2012, 08:38

Yeah. I hear that berserker is great for AoHu, since it triggers all the time (as long as you don't die).

I was trying to get the untouchable medals at the same time though, so I went for fully tactical defence (which in the case of anomaly means run like hell).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 03, 2012, 11:47

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 03, 2012, 05:27

Those bastards are fast. There's no way I could ever outrun one of them, even with max speed. I hate lost souls with a passion. I'm planning to build an energy pistol when I find the mods, if only for those bastards.

You could try whacking Kornel with giant pink rubber dildo. Maybe it would help to change (again) Lost Souls. I dislike their current form as well.
Alternatively, try playing on UV.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 03, 2012, 13:53

Quote

Try investing a point into hellrunner. You'll probably want to have dodgemaster before cybie.

I'd do that if I was going for MGK, but for other builds, I have too many other trait obligations. As is, by the time I get to the bruiser brothers, I have only 4-5 traits under my belt. How many levels can one expect to get by endgame (per difficulty, of course) anyway?

I had considered developing a defense-oriented build (both active and passive, probably no master traits), but I haven't been terribly motivated to toy with the idea.

Quote

BTW, you must go towards the door you came from.

That's always my plan. This way I have access to a couple health globes if I need them.

Quote

One of the ways is wear red armor and take Ber(or be in berserk through berserk pack) and rocket jump.

Two problems with that. One, Ber is kind of a waste of a trait with a pistol build. Two, I can't use a rocket launcher playing AoMr.

Side note, does vampire work with ranged weapons? I'm guessing not.

Quote

Alternatively, try playing on UV.

How would that help? I'm getting my ass handed to me just on normal.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Klear on April 03, 2012, 14:50

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 03, 2012, 13:53

How would that help? I'm getting my ass handed to me just on normal.

Well, on HMP and UV there are not lost souls in the anomaly (replaced by demons), but everything else is more challenging, so it's not really a good idea.

I assume you've played a couple of games by now... haven't you found any phase devices yet? I know it's not a good plan to rely on a random drop to pass a level, but I'm curious if you managed to pass the anomaly like this already.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 03, 2012, 16:07

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 03, 2012, 13:53

How many levels can one expect to get by endgame (per difficulty, of course) anyway?

That's a hard question to answer, but I've figured it out up to the Anomaly, but first, the assumption list:

* 100% kills on all levels.
* You play all the specials and get 100% kills (in this case, Arena, (Un)Chained Court, and Wall).
* No caves (reduces XP) or mazes (increases XP).
* The assumed amount of XP is based on average XP / Danger point, and as such can fluctuate.
* No vaults (which spawn extra enemies, and thus increase XP)

Anyway, here you go, expected level at Start of Anomaly (Floor 8), by Difficulty:
ITYTD: 8,645 XP = Lv 5 / 41%
HNTR: 10,896 XP = Lv 5 / 98%
HMP: 12,761 XP = Lv 6 / 35%
UV: 18,381 XP = Lv 7 / 39%
N!: 24,767 XP = Lv 8 / 34%

For those interested, the calculations (spoilered because they take some space)

Spoiler: Calculations (click to show/hide)

ITYTD: 98 Danger Points @ approx. 30 XP each = 2,940 XP + 141 XP (Phobos Entry) + 1,239 XP (Hell Arena) + 2,207 XP (Unchained Court) + 2,148 XP (The Wall)

HNTR: 169 Danger Points @ approx. 24 XP each = 4,056 XP + 178 XP (Phobos Entry) + 1,528 XP (Hell Arena) + 1,906 XP (Unchained Court) + 3,228 XP (The Wall)

HMP: 251 Danger Points @ approx. 20 XP each = 5,020 XP + 193 (Phobos Entry) + 1,398 XP (Hell Arena) + 1,670 XP (Unchained Court) + 4,480 XP (The Wall)

UV: 402 Danger Points @ approx. 21 XP each = 8,442 XP + 257 XP (Phobos Entry) + 2,038 XP (Hell Arena) + 2,588 XP (Unchained Court) + 5,056 XP (The Wall)

N!: 501 Danger Points @ approx. 25 XP each = 12,525 XP + 310 XP (Phobos Entry) + 2,758 XP (Hell Arena) + 3,106 XP (Unchained Court) + 6,068 XP (The Wall)

Edit: Fixed a small display error.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 03, 2012, 18:01

Quote

haven't you found any phase devices yet?

Sometimes. I would say I'd find them in about 25% of my games by the time I get to that level. It's strange. If I do find them, I find quite a few (at least 2-3), otherwise nothing.

I think I need to reconsider my defense (or lack thereof). I have no active or passive defense, just tactical, which I think is weaker w/o Int or MCe. It kinda makes me want to either ditch pistol masters entirely and go MCe (for stronger tactical), or go MGK for some form of active defense.

@shark: Thanks for the stats, but I was wondering about endgame (so I could plan ahead). I had a pretty solid guess about anomaly, what with how often my AoMr characters die there. :P

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 04, 2012, 13:58

Endgame, eh?  Well I took my calculations out to endgame to figure out what it would be.  Assumption list:

* 100% kills on all levels
* Played all specials, including Mortuary.
* No caves (reduces XP) or mazes (increases XP)
* No vaults (spawns additional enemies, which increases XP)
* Random level XP is based on a XP/danger point value, which I've chosen 3 values to reflect the changes in each episode (which should give a rough calculation).

The short story:

XP and Level by Floor 24 (Dis), By difficulty:

ITYTD: 47,910 -- Level 10 / 79%
HNTR: 69,244 -- Level 12 / 92%
HMP: 81,238 -- Level 14 / 6%
UV: 113,168 -- Level 15 / 65%
N!: 154,921 -- Level 17 / 74%

The calcuations:

Spoiler: ITYTD (click to show/hide)

Levels 2 - 7: 98 danger @ approx. 30 XP each = 2,940 XP
Levels 9 - 15: 229 danger @ approx. 30 XP each = 6,870 XP
Levels 17 - 23: 353 danger @ approx. 45 XP each = 15,885 XP

Phobos Entry:	141 XP
Hell Arena:	1,239 XP
Unchained Court:	2,207 XP
The Wall:	2,148 XP
Phobos Anomaly:	1,702 XP
Hell Armory:	N/A
Halls of Carnage:	2,162 XP
City of Skulls:	2,838 XP
Spider's Lair:	2,944 XP
Tower of Babel:	3,808 XP
Unholy Cathedral:	N/A
The Vaults:	N/A
The Mortuary:	N/A
Lava Pits:	3,026 XP

Spoiler: HNTR (click to show/hide)

Levels 2 - 7: 169 danger @ approx. 24 XP each = 4,056 XP
Levels 9 - 15: 328 danger @ approx. 24 XP each = 7,872 XP
Levels 17 - 23: 422 danger @ approx. 38 XP each = 16,036 XP

Phobos Entry:	178 XP
Hell Arena:	1,528 XP
Unchained Court:	1,906 XP
The Wall:	3,228 XP
Phobos Anomaly:	2,552 XP
Hell Armory:	2,862 XP
Halls of Carnage:	2,068 XP
City of Skulls:	4,886 XP
Spider's Lair:	3,160 XP
Tower of Babel:	3,264 XP
Unholy Cathedral:	2,580 XP
The Vaults:	5,600 XP
The Mortuary:	3,650 XP
Lava Pits:	3,818 XP

Spoiler: HMP (click to show/hide)

Levels 2 - 7: 251 danger @ approx. 20 XP each = 5,020 XP
Levels 9 - 15: 487 danger @ approx. 20 XP each = 9,740 XP
Levels 17 - 23: 628 danger @ approx. 32 XP each = 20,096 XP

Phobos Entry:	193 XP
Hell Arena:	1,398 XP
Unchained Court:	1,670 XP
The Wall:	4,480 XP
Phobos Anomaly:	2,376 XP
Hell Armory:	2,673 XP
Halls of Carnage:	2,108 XP
City of Skulls:	4,821 XP
Spider's Lair:	4,208 XP
Tower of Babel:	2,720 XP
Unholy Cathedral:	2,432 XP
The Vaults:	7,232 XP
The Mortuary:	3,648 XP
Lava Pits:	6,423 XP

Spoiler: UV (click to show/hide)

Levels 2 - 7: 402 danger @ approx. 21 XP each = 8,442 XP
Levels 9 - 15: 776 danger @ approx. 23 XP each = 17,848 XP
Levels 17 - 23: 1,004 danger @ approx. 32 XP each = 32,128 XP

Phobos Entry:	257 XP
Hell Arena:	2,038 XP
Unchained Court:	2,588 XP
The Wall:	5,056 XP
Phobos Anomaly:	2,400 XP
Hell Armory:	5,109 XP
Halls of Carnage:	2,432 XP
City of Skulls:	5,417 XP
Spider's Lair:	4,734 XP
Tower of Babel:	2,720 XP
Unholy Cathedral:	2,840 XP
The Vaults:	8,480 XP
The Mortuary:	4,256 XP
Lava Pits:	6,423 XP

Spoiler: N! (click to show/hide)

Levels 2 - 7: 501 danger @ approx. 25 XP each = 12,525 XP
Levels 9 - 15: 969 danger @ approx. 28 XP each = 27,132 XP
Levels 17 - 23: 1,253 danger @ approx. 38 XP each = 47,614 XP

Phobos Entry:	310 XP
Hell Arena:	2,758 XP
Unchained Court:	3,106 XP
The Wall:	6,068 XP
Phobos Anomaly:	4,524 XP
Hell Armory:	6,128 XP
Halls of Carnage:	2,920 XP
City of Skulls:	6,490 XP
Spider's Lair:	5,688 XP
Tower of Babel:	3,264 XP
Unholy Cathedral:	3,408 XP
The Vaults:	10,176 XP
The Mortuary:	5,110 XP
Lava Pits:	7,700 XP

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 04, 2012, 21:35

Wow, shark, well done. Thanks.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 05, 2012, 01:41

...but I'm not quite done yet...

I have: The long story.  The breakdown of each floor and what level you would be under the previous assumptions.  I add one more assumption for these tables:

* Special floors that can appear on 1 of 2 different floors are assumed to appear on the later floor.

Alright, here goes the tables, spoilered again because it's huge.  When level changes, it's highlighted.

Spoiler: ITYTD (click to show/hide)

Floor	XP	Cum. XP	Level	% to Next
Entry	141	141	1	28%
2	330	471	1	94%
3	390	861	2	36%
Arena	1239	2100	3	24%
4	450	2550	3	42%
5	510	3060	3	62%
Court	2207	5267	4	42%
6	600	5867	4	62%
7	660	6527	4	84%
Wall	2148	8675	5	42%
Anomaly	1702	10377	5	84%
9	780	11157	6	3%
10	840	11997	6	20%
11	930	12927	6	39%
12	990	13917	6	58%
Carnage	2162	16079	7	1%
13	1050	17129	7	19%
Skulls	2838	19967	7	66%
14	1110	21077	7	85%
Spider	2944	24021	8	25%
15	1170	25191	8	40%
Babel	3808	28999	8	87%
17	1980	30979	9	10%
18	2070	33049	9	30%
19	2160	35209	9	52%
20	2250	37459	9	75%
21	2385	39844	9	98%
22	2475	42319	10	23%
Lava Pits	3026	45345	10	53%
23	2565	47910	10	79%

Spoiler: HNTR (click to show/hide)

Floor	XP	Cum. XP	Level	% to Next
Entry	178	178	1	36%
2	456	634	2	13%
3	576	1210	2	71%
Arena	1528	2738	3	50%
4	648	3386	3	75%
5	720	4106	4	4%
Court	1906	6012	4	67%
6	792	6804	4	93%
7	864	7668	5	17%
Wall	3228	10896	5	97%
Anomaly	2552	13448	6	49%
9	984	14432	6	69%
10	1032	15464	6	89%
Armory	2862	18326	7	39%
11	1080	19406	7	57%
12	1128	20534	7	76%
Carnage	2068	22602	8	8%
13	1176	23778	8	22%
Skulls	4886	28664	8	83%
14	1224	29888	8	99%
Spider	3160	33048	9	30%
15	1248	34296	9	43%
Babel	3264	37560	9	76%
17	2128	39688	9	97%
Cathedral	2580	42268	10	23%
18	2166	44434	10	44%
19	2242	46676	10	67%
Vaults	5600	52276	11	23%
20	2280	54556	11	46%
Mortuary	3650	58206	11	82%
21	2356	60562	12	6%
22	2394	62956	12	30%
Lava Pits	3818	66774	12	68%
23	2470	69244	12	92%

Spoiler: HMP (click to show/hide)

Floor	XP	Cum. XP	Level	% to Next
Entry	193	193	1	39%
2	580	773	2	27%
3	700	1473	2	97%
Arena	1398	2871	3	55%
4	800	3671	3	87%
5	900	4571	4	19%
Court	1670	6241	4	75%
6	980	7221	5	6%
7	1060	8281	5	32%
Wall	4480	12761	6	35%
Anomaly	2376	15137	6	83%
9	1200	16337	7	6%
10	1280	17617	7	27%
Armory	2673	20290	7	72%
11	1340	21630	7	94%
12	1400	23030	8	13%
Carnage	2108	25138	8	39%
13	1460	26598	8	57%
Skulls	4821	31419	9	14%
14	1500	32919	9	29%
Spider	4208	37127	9	71%
15	1560	38687	9	87%
Babel	2720	41407	10	14%
17	2656	44063	10	41%
Cathedral	2432	46495	10	65%
18	2720	49215	10	92%
19	2816	52031	11	20%
Vaults	7232	59263	11	93%
20	2880	62143	12	21%
Mortuary	3648	65791	12	58%
21	2944	68735	12	87%
22	3008	71743	13	17%
Lava Pits	6423	78166	13	82%
23	3072	81238	14	6%

Spoiler: UV (click to show/hide)

Floor	XP	Cum. XP	Level	% to Next
Entry	257	257	1	51%
2	966	1223	2	72%
3	1176	2399	3	36%
Arena	2038	4437	4	15%
4	1344	5781	4	59%
5	1512	7293	5	7%
Court	2588	9881	5	72%
6	1659	11540	6	11%
7	1785	13325	6	47%
Wall	5056	18381	7	40%
Anomaly	2400	20781	7	80%
9	2208	22989	8	12%
10	2346	25335	8	42%
Armory	5109	30444	9	4%
11	2461	32905	9	29%
12	2553	35458	9	55%
Carnage	2432	37890	9	79%
13	2668	40558	10	6%
Skulls	5417	45975	10	60%
14	2760	48735	10	87%
Spider	4734	53469	11	35%
15	2852	56321	11	63%
Babel	2720	59041	11	90%
17	4224	63265	12	33%
Cathedral	2840	66105	12	61%
18	4352	70457	13	5%
19	4480	74937	13	49%
Vaults	8480	83417	14	17%
20	4608	88025	14	40%
Mortuary	4256	92281	14	61%
21	4704	96985	14	85%
22	4832	101817	15	9%
Lava Pits	6423	108240	15	41%
23	4928	113168	15	65%

Spoiler: N! (click to show/hide)

Floor	XP	Cum. XP	Level	% to Next
Entry	310	310	1	62%
2	1425	1735	3	9%
3	1750	3485	3	79%
Arena	2758	6243	4	75%
4	2000	8243	5	31%
5	2250	10493	5	87%
Court	3106	13599	6	52%
6	2450	16049	7	1%
7	2650	18699	7	45%
Wall	6068	24767	8	35%
Anomaly	4524	29291	8	91%
9	3360	32651	9	27%
10	3556	36207	9	62%
Armory	6128	42335	10	23%
11	3724	46059	10	61%
12	3892	49951	10	99%
Carnage	2920	52871	11	29%
13	4060	56931	11	69%
Skulls	6490	63421	12	34%
14	4200	67621	12	76%
Spider	5688	73309	13	33%
15	4340	77649	13	76%
Babel	3264	80913	14	5%
17	6270	87183	14	36%
Cathedral	3408	90591	14	53%
18	6460	97051	14	85%
19	6650	103701	15	19%
Vaults	10176	113877	15	69%
20	6802	120679	16	3%
Mortuary	5110	125789	16	29%
21	6992	132781	16	64%
22	7144	139925	16	99%
Lava Pits	7700	147625	17	38%
23	7296	154921	17	74%

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 05, 2012, 18:04

You really do your homework. Maybe that's why I suck at RL, I need to commit more. :D

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: spacedust on April 05, 2012, 22:03

Shark's tables ought to be stickied, or put up on the wiki. They are awesome!

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Perfectblue on April 06, 2012, 08:34

Playing on HMP attempting a pistol build but getting destroyed on Chained Court I normally wouldnt have trouble with it. I Have skills in dual gunner/ son of a gun at that point. With pistols its very difficult to kite monsters around wall corners as you can with a shotgun. Thus, being able to shoot an enemy with a pistol means the enemy can also shoot you. And pistols do not have high enough DPS to face a tough monster head on, as you might be able to with a plasma rifle in a tight spot.

Normally on the Chained Court if I have a rapid fire chaingun build, or shotgun build I would have no difficulty. I must be doing something wrong.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Creaphis on April 06, 2012, 11:13

Unless you're playing Angel of Marksmanship, what you're doing wrong is not carrying a chaingun and a shotgun or two. Every weapon type has its advantages, and having a "build" doesn't mean you're only allowed to use that one thing.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 06, 2012, 11:54

Quote from: Perfectblue on April 06, 2012, 08:34

And pistols do not have high enough DPS to face a tough monster head on, as you might be able to with a plasma rifle in a tight spot.

What makes you so sure of that?

SoG 2 and Dualgunner gives you 19.4 Average DPS  SoG 3 and Dualgunner gives you 33.0 Average DPS.  Also, 91% point blank accuracy (+4).

The base plasma rifle has an Average DPS of 24, with only 74% point blank accuracy (+2).

SoG 3 is *very* important for a pistol build.  That firing time reduction makes a huge difference.

Quote from: Perfectblue on April 06, 2012, 08:34

Thus, being able to shoot an enemy with a pistol means the enemy can also shoot you.

That is also not necessarily true.  If you play in graphics mode and hit the 'f' key to bring up the target selection, move the mouse around your field of view when you're cornershooting.  There are spaces in your vision that enemies can't shoot you from (you'll see the X turn red over those).

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Perfectblue on April 06, 2012, 18:23

Thanks for the insightful response shark20061.

When going for a pistol build, would you recommend waiting to use pistols as your main source of damage until you have at least X amount of points in certain traits? For example, wait until you have at least 1 in dual gunner.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: thelaptop on April 06, 2012, 18:35

At lower difficulty levels, there is no reason to wait for anything to use your pistols.  Ammunition is plenty, and even with SoGx1, your pistols are still pretty useful at killing things.  This is probably a good way to get used to AoMr without having the specific restriction at hand.

I am not so sure about the higher difficulty levels.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 06, 2012, 19:22

Quote

Unless you're playing Angel of Marksmanship, what you're doing wrong is not carrying a chaingun and a shotgun or two.

I thought I mentioned this a few times, but I am doing Angel of Marksmanship.

I've tried both a DG and MSs build, though at that point of the game (Bruiser Brothers), they're both pretty much the same. I also tinkered with an Int (MCe) build, figuring I could take the whole knowledge-is-power approach, but without pistol traits, I was not terribly effective. However, I haven't spent too much time on that build, so I might just need a little more practice.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 06, 2012, 21:04

Comparing MSs, DG, and MBD:

Assuming no other traits and no mods.
Assuming no enemy armor.
Assuming all shots connect.

DG, Two Pistols, Avg DPS --
SoG 2: 19.7
SoG 3: 33.0
SoG 4: 75.0
SoG 5: 166.7

MSs, Pistol, DPS --
SoG 2: (16.7)
SoG 3: 27.5
SoG 4: 60.0
SoG 5: 130.0

Bullet Dance makes these numbers go insane:

MBD, TH 2, Two Pistols, Avg DPS:
SoG 2: 58.3
SoG 3: 100.0
SoG 4: 225.0
SoG 5: 500.0

and TH 1 actually provides BETTER benefits (until SoG 5) due to a bug:

MBD, TH 1, Two Pistols, Avg DPS:
SoG 2: 77.8
SoG 3: 133.3
SoG 4: 300.0
SoG 5: 400.0

Edit: Hehehe, get this: I didn't count in the extra 2 damage from SoB (to get TH), so the actual values will actually be HIGHER than that!! See below!

MBD, TH 2, Two Pistols, Avg DPS (with SoB 2 bonus) --
SoG 2: 75.0
SoG 3: 125.0
SoG 4: 275.0
SoG 5: 600.0

MBD, TH 1, Two Pistols, Avg DPS (with SoB 2 bonus) --
SoG 2: 100.0
SoG 3: 166.7
SoG 4: 366.7
SoG 5: 480.0

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: AlterAsc on April 06, 2012, 22:48

Well, since without EE you do miss a lot, and you need to reload a lot, MBD is not as cool as it seems from this numbers.
Also since basically any shot causes knockback, you'll miss even more due to it.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: ih8regin on April 06, 2012, 23:11

and, these numbers are only correct for nanomachic pistols, since you'll have to reload, and spend a lot of time for either build, but with MSs and DG you have to reload once per 6 shots (normal pistols expected), with MBD/TH1 once per three shots, and with MBD/TH2 once per two shots.

Hey by the way, is Aimed Shot affected by MBD? I'll be glad if it is - 0.2s for 6 +3 targeted bullets (for a total of +7) is a serious set of firepower.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 07, 2012, 00:55

Aimed Shot doesn't stack with Bullet Dance, you'll only fire 2 shots (one from each gun).

Alright, alright, so I missed the reloading time, which is kinda a big thing.

I'll even throw the numbers in so you can double check them, how's that?

SoG	Avg Dmg.	Shots	Speed	Reload	Total Dmg.	Total Time	DPS
DG
2	7	12	4.32	2.4	84	6.72	12.5
3	8	12	2.88	2.4	96	5.28	18.2
4	9	12	1.44	2.4	108	3.84	28.1
5	10	12	0.6	2.4	120	3	40.0
MSs
2	10	6	3.6	1.2	60	4.8	12.5
3	11	6	2.4	1.2	66	3.6	18.3
4	12	6	1.2	1.2	72	2.4	30.0
5	13	6	0.6	1.2	78	1.8	43.3
MBD, TH1
2	9	12	1.08	2.4	108	3.48	31.0
3	10	12	0.72	2.4	120	3.12	38.5
4	11	12	0.36	2.4	132	2.76	47.8
5	12	12	0.3	2.4	144	2.7	53.3
MBD, TH2
2	9	12	1.44	2.4	108	3.84	28.1
3	10	12	0.96	2.4	120	3.36	35.7
4	11	12	0.48	2.4	132	2.88	45.8
5	12	12	0.2	2.4	144	2.6	55.4

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Pricklyman on April 07, 2012, 04:12

Shark - the man with too much time on his hands...

:D

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Uitë on April 07, 2012, 05:39

Of course, if you're going pistols, you'll want to have at least a speedloader or a combat pistol if you can get it, and MSs also allows the use of a 10mm ammochain. Both would change the numbers significantly.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 07, 2012, 09:18

Quote from: Uitë on April 07, 2012, 05:39

Of course, if you're going pistols, you'll want to have at least a speedloader or a combat pistol if you can get it, and MSs also allows the use of a 10mm ammochain. Both would change the numbers significantly.

Significantly is right.

MSs with 10mm Ammo Chain

SoG	Avg Dmg.	Shots	Speed	Reload	Total Dmg.	Total Time	DPS
2	10	6	3.6	0.24	60	3.84	15.6
3	11	6	2.4	0.24	66	2.64	25.0
4	12	6	1.2	0.24	72	1.44	50.0
5	13	6	0.6	0.24	78	0.84	92.9

MBD, TH1, Two Speedloader Pistols

SoG	Avg Dmg.	Shots	Speed	Reload	Total Dmg.	Total Time	DPS
2	9	12	1.08	1.2	108	2.28	47.4
3	10	12	0.72	1.2	120	1.92	62.5
4	11	12	0.36	1.2	132	1.56	84.6
5	12	12	0.3	1.2	144	1.5	96.0

MBD, TH2, Two Speedloader Pistols

SoG	Avg Dmg.	Shots	Speed	Reload	Total Dmg.	Total Time	DPS
2	9	12	1.44	1.2	108	2.64	40.9
3	10	12	0.96	1.2	120	2.16	55.6
4	11	12	0.48	1.2	132	1.68	78.6
5	12	12	0.2	1.2	144	1.4	102.9

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:46

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 06, 2012, 19:22

I thought I mentioned this a few times, but I am doing Angel of Marksmanship.

I've tried both a DG and MSs build, though at that point of the game (Bruiser Brothers), they're both pretty much the same. I also tinkered with an Int (MCe) build, figuring I could take the whole knowledge-is-power approach, but without pistol traits, I was not terribly effective. However, I haven't spent too much time on that build, so I might just need a little more practice.

\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:51

Quote from: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:46

\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.

@shark:
Your stats are nice, but do not take few things into account:
- accuracy;
- defense;
- ammo efficiency (damage / ammo); higher ammo usage (MBD) does not really go well with later levels; also you can't always tank while reloading;

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: AlterAsc on April 07, 2012, 16:16

MCe is one of possible ways to develop masterless high-offence(SoB,SoG,EE) build into something.Though personally i would rather take Tan/Iro instead.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 09, 2012, 00:35

Quote from: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:51

@shark:
Your stats are nice, but do not take few things into account:
- accuracy;

I mentioned that already, that would be one huge variable, affects all cases equally, and only by a little, so that's really a non issue.

Quote from: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:51

- defense;

Again, mentioned, but I did put some tables together anyway and there really isn't a major effect.

Quote from: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:51

- ammo efficiency (damage / ammo); higher ammo usage (MBD) does not really go well with later levels; also you can't always tank while reloading;

...what?  The same weapon is in every table (except for the speedloaders, but they use the same base weapon).  How does this even matter?  These stats don't care about that.  All I'm comparing is the DPS between MSs, MBD, and a regular DG setup.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: AlterAsc on April 09, 2012, 04:08

Quote from: shark20061 on April 09, 2012, 00:35

affects all cases equally, and only by a little, so that's really a non issue.

That IS an issue.
MSs build have +8 accuracy with a basic pistol on the edge of vision, which translates in 98%.
MBD have +2, which is just 74%.And it blocks EE.
And missing almost quarter of your shots can't be called a little.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 09, 2012, 04:47

Quote from: shark20061 on April 09, 2012, 00:35

I mentioned that already, that would be one huge variable, affects all cases equally, and only by a little, so that's really a non issue.

Post above. Also I would add that with crappy accuracy hitting targets at the edge of FOV (or outside of it) is really crappy.

Quote from: shark20061 on April 09, 2012, 00:35

Again, mentioned, but I did put some tables together anyway and there really isn't a major effect.

Having tactical, active, or passive defense makes a big difference. "Not a major effect" in your opinion can translate into not being able to kill Cyberdemon, for example, IMHO.

Quote from: shark20061 on April 09, 2012, 00:35

...what?  The same weapon is in every table (except for the speedloaders, but they use the same base weapon).  How does this even matter?  These stats don't care about that.  All I'm comparing is the DPS between MSs, MBD, and a regular DG setup.

Ammo can be a problem at some point. Pure DPS statistics won't tell you that instead of using four bullets to kill something you can use just two.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: punkbohemian on April 09, 2012, 19:49

Quote from: skarczew on April 07, 2012, 15:46

\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.

The are the same to the extent that I die in the exact same spot with both. That is, the lost soul ambush before the bruiser brothers.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 10, 2012, 02:42

Quote from: AlterAsc on April 09, 2012, 04:08

That IS an issue.
MSs build have +8 accuracy with a basic pistol on the edge of vision, which translates in 98%.
MBD have +2, which is just 74%.And it blocks EE.
And missing almost quarter of your shots can't be called a little.

Quote from: skarczew on April 09, 2012, 04:47

Post above. Also I would add that with crappy accuracy hitting targets at the edge of FOV (or outside of it) is really crappy.

At LOS you lose 26% of your DPS on any build without EE.  No, that's not a small amount.  But it also doesn't always apply, because you aren't always shooting targets at LOS.  I don't care about it for these tables, I already said at the start that I'm not going to take that into consideration, it would be too large of a variable anyway for my purpose.

Quote from: skarczew on April 09, 2012, 04:47

Having tactical, active, or passive defense makes a big difference. "Not a major effect" in your opinion can translate into not being able to kill Cyberdemon, for example, IMHO.

Two comments.

For monsters:
The only monsters with more than 3 armor are bosses, and, with the exception of AoD (who you can't use pistols against), they don't go any higher than 5.  So for bosses, yes, it will have an effect.  Overall... not so much.  I'm not looking at little corner cases in these tables.  Calculating DPS versus 2 armor cause slightly less than 25% drop in DPS (it has a lower effect than the 25% accuracy penalty does).

For players:
I'm assuming you're firing the entire clip and then reloading afterward.  How you end up playing will lower (or raise) the actual DPS.  As will if you are firing at a target out of line of sight, if you have a modded weapon, if you have other traits that effect reloading and fire time, etc...  All of these things affect DPS, but these tables are just a base representation of what to expect, and I'm making certain assumptions which I know will not possibly always hold true in an actual game.  Same goes for my Expected Level for each Floor tables.

Quote from: skarczew on April 09, 2012, 04:47

Ammo can be a problem at some point. Pure DPS statistics won't tell you that instead of using four bullets to kill something you can use just two.

(Highlighting mine)
And these are nothing more than pure DPS statistics.  So it's a caveat to the results, not a problem about the results.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 10, 2012, 04:52

Quote from: punkbohemian on April 09, 2012, 19:49

The are the same to the extent that I die in the exact same spot with both. That is, the lost soul ambush before the bruiser brothers.

Well, I had no problems with them ...because I play UV =) .
I would suggest using phase devices, shockwave packs, hellwave packs. Or just complain enough, so the devs do something with Lost Souls =) .

@shark20061:
I just wanted to say that there are things that look good in statistics, and only there :P .

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: shark20061 on April 10, 2012, 06:46

Quote from: skarczew on April 10, 2012, 04:52

@shark20061:
I just wanted to say that there are things that look good in statistics, and only there :P .

This would indeed be one of them. :)

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Creaphis on April 10, 2012, 10:47

Quote from: shark20061 on April 06, 2012, 11:54

That is also not necessarily true.  If you play in graphics mode and hit the 'f' key to bring up the target selection, move the mouse around your field of view when you're cornershooting.  There are spaces in your vision that enemies can't shoot you from (you'll see the X turn red over those).

So that's what that means! This should probably be mentioned in the manual or somewhere.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Ashannar on April 10, 2012, 14:16

Too bad it doesn't work properly. You're better off just getting a feel for it yourself.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 10, 2012, 14:16

Quote from: Creaphis on April 10, 2012, 10:47

So that's what that means! This should probably be mentioned in the manual or somewhere.

You must have been shot by invisible enemies already. The thing is, you can do the same with them.

And not everything is in the manual, as this game has its secrets and there are only few (?) people that know everything.

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: Creepy on April 10, 2012, 16:27

Quote from: skarczew on April 10, 2012, 04:52

Well, I had no problems with them ...because I play UV =) .

Man, there's something deeply goofy when playing the hard mode ends up making a level easier. =p

Title: Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)
Post by: skarczew on April 10, 2012, 16:33

Quote from: Creepy on April 10, 2012, 16:27

Man, there's something deeply goofy when playing the hard mode ends up making a level easier. =p

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