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16

Post Mortem / [U|AoMC|100%|YAFW] Gatekeeper Diamond, Rectifying My Past Mistakes

« on: April 25, 2020, 02:33 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Iainuki, level 16 Cacodemon 1st Lieutenant Scout,
 nuked the Mastermind at the Hell Fortress.
 He survived 180875 turns and scored 406727 points.
 He played for 6 hours, 18 minutes and 10 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 1227 out of 1227 hellspawn. (100%)
 This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!
 He was an Angel of Max Carnage!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 10
  Levels completed : 10

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Cyberdemon's Head
  Medal of Prejudice
  UAC Star (gold cluster)
  Aurora Medallion
  Grim Reaper's Badge
  Shambler's Head
  Hell Champion Medal
  Gatekeeper Diamond Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  .............................................X............#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ...............................................|%%........#
  ...............................................%}%........#
  ...............................................|%|........#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 48/50   Experience 123158/16
  ToHit Ranged +12  ToHit Melee +12  ToDmg Ranged +3  ToDmg Melee +3

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 3)
    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 3)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Triggerhappy     (Level 2)
    Cateye           (Level 1)

  Int->Int->Fin->Fin->WK->WK->SoB->SoB->TH->MCe->HR->HR->DM->TH->Fin->SoB->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   fireproof red armor [6/6] (98%) (P)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   nanomachic plasma rifle (1d7)x8 (F1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   phaseshift boots [4/4] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   BFG 9000 (10d6) [130/130] (B1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] hyperblaster (2d4)x3 [40/40] (T1)
    [b] assault shotgun (7d3) [6/6]
    [c] missile launcher (6d6) [4/4]
    [d] cerberus duelist armor [2/2] (100%) (P)
    [e] energy-shielded vest [1/1] (92%)
    [f] ballistic shield [0/0] (100%)
    [g] shotgun shell (x70)
    [h] power cell (x70)
    [i] power cell (x70)
    [j] power cell (x20)
    [k] power cell (x70)
    [l] power cell (x70)
    [m] large med-pack
    [n] large med-pack
    [o] large med-pack
    [p] lava element
    [q] cerberus steel boots [0/0] (100%) (A)
    [r] shell box (x100)
    [s] shell box (x100)
    [t] rocket box (x20)
    [u] power battery (x80)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Melee      - internal 0%    torso 4294967266% feet 0%   
    Fire       - internal 0%    torso 55%   feet 0%   

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    131 former humans
    98 former sergeants
    112 former captains
    138 imps
    119 demons
    250 lost souls
    62 cacodemons
    35 hell knights
    78 barons of hell
    39 arachnotrons
    16 former commandos
    30 pain elementals
    35 revenants
    19 mancubi
    44 arch-viles
    12 nightmare demons
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 lava elemental
    1 agony elemental
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind
    1 John Carmack
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he assembled a gatling gun!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 7 he sneaked into the Phobos Lab.
  He broke through the lab.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  On level 9 he assembled a hyperblaster!
  On level 9 he assembled a cerberus boots!
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 11 he arrived at the Containment Area.
  He emerged from the Containment Area victorious!
  On level 12 he romped upon the Abyssal Plains.
  He slaughtered the beasts living there.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  He left level 16 as soon as possible.
  On level 17 he stumbled into a complex full of arch-viles!
  On level 17 he found the Grammaton Cleric Beretta!
  On level 18 he found the Anti-Freak Jackal!
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  He cracked the Vaults and cleared them out!
  On level 20 he was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
  On level 20 he assembled a nanomanufacture ammo!
  On level 20 he found the Angelic Armor!
  He managed to clear the Mortuary from evil!
  On level 22 he arrived at Mt. Erebus.
  He managed to raise Mt. Erebus completely!
  On level 23 he assembled a cerberus armor!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  He overloaded a nuclear BFG 9000 on level 24!
  He defeated the Mastermind and found the TRUE EVIL!
  Then finally in Hell itself, he killed the final EVIL.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 The missile hits the baron of hell. The missile hits the baron of hell. The
 missile hits the baron of hell. The missile hits the baron of hell. The
 missile hits the baron of hell. The missile hits the baron of hell. The
 missile hits the baron of hell. The baron of hell dies. The missile hits John
 Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The
 missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits
 John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack.
 Chain fire ( full ) -- Choose target or abort...
 You see : John Carmack (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John
 Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The
 missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits
 John Carmack. John Carmack dies. Congratulations! You defeated John Carmack!
 Press <Enter>...
 You feel relatively safe now.

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 1174 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 1073 of those were killed.
 2 of those were killed by something unknown.
 20 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 64 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 15 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 10 killed the bitch and survived.
 5 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I failed to get Gatekeeper Platinum in my Destroyer Platinum run because of nerves.  This took a couple of attempts mostly because of stupidity.  I had one run where I nuked myself at the Cyberdemon (I had invulnerability that ran out, it's almost certain that I could have just gunned the Cyberdemon down while invulnerable, the nuke was stupid and unnecessary).  In this game Hell's Armory had a nano pack, and while it took forever to find the necessary bulk packs (I needed the one in the Mortuary), once I did I pretty much clicked to win through the rest of the game.  I found a random firestorm pack I slapped onto it once it was clear I wasn't going to be able to use it to finish one of the assemblies I haven't discovered yet.  (I have found so many schematics.)  Chain-firing with a firestorm nanomachine plasma rifle tore through John Carmack faster than I'd ever seen him die.

The other highlight of this run was the arch-vile complex:

You enter Hell, level 1. There's the smell of blood in the air! There's the   
 smell of blood in the air! You hear crackling flames! You shiver from cold... 
 You feel there is something really valuable here!

Two vaults filled with cacodemons and another useless pistol unique.  (Why don't I ever find these in a marksmanship run?)  Luckily I could kill all the arch-viles first before tackling the cacodemons.

17

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!

« on: April 22, 2020, 23:19 »

Also, lots of waiting by doorways or around blind corners such that you can see them coming before they see you.

On Nightmare, does this demand that you've done perfect corpse disposal beforehand?

18

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 22, 2020, 23:15 »

Personally, I've never been a fan of Ammochain, because of the lack of Eagle Eye.  I'd rather have my weapons be more accurate, so I hit my targets more often and use less ammo that way.  My preferred strategy for Ao100/ArchAo666 is to diversify my weapons, so I use a variety of ammo types, and then as much as possible, use whichever ammo there is the most of.  (Though truth be told, for ArchAo666, I'd much rather do melee, because it's only kind of tedious, instead of incredibly tedious)  :P

I'm glad to see my lack of enthusiasm about Ammochain validated by a better player than I :).  I honestly think it's a fairly weak master trait.  In Ao100/Ao666, as you note, its big problem is that it blocks Eagle Eye, which both saves ammo and increases your DPS because you hit more often.  I think an even bigger problem is that it cuts off access to Intuition 2.  It has other problems in other challenges and standard games.

I'd like to clarify that.  Nightmare Arachnotrons have similar AI to Mancubi in that once they fire a barrage at you, they'll fire a second barrage shortly after, whether they can see you or not, even if you're in melee range.  If you can get to melee range before they fire that first barrage, they'll be left with their weak melee attack.

Okay, I wasn't crazy then to remember hitting them in melee when I was in that arachnotron cave.  That's useful to know at least.

Regardless, your best bet when facing them without a melee build is to seek cover and try to corner-shoot them one at a time, if possible.  Unfortunately, cave levels don't always lend themselves to comfortable corner-shooting, and that's why Nightmare Arachnotron caves are one of the more dangerous levels in the game.  Still, it's your best bet if you're going for YAAM.

I think finding a good way of dealing with nightmare arachnotron caverns is probably a prerequisite for this challenge.  They're a lot more common than cyberdemon complexes, and I'd argue in many ways they're more dangerous too.  Dodgemaster doesn't help much against them.  Lucking into the Inquisitor's Set isn't necessary, but getting an energy-shielded vest might be a huge help.  Alternately, some ridiculously high defense armor that nerfs their per-shot damage might also work.

[--------------------------------------------------------------]

19

Post Mortem / [U|AoMC|100%|YAFW] Destroyer Platinum, should have been Gatekeeper Diamond Too

« on: April 22, 2020, 01:28 »

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Iainuki, level 16 Cacodemon 1st Lieutenant Scout,
 nuked the Mastermind at the Hell Fortress.
 He survived 168310 turns and scored 422516 points.
 He played for 9 hours, 24 minutes and 10 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violence!

 He killed 1203 out of 1203 hellspawn. (100%)
 This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!
 He was an Angel of Max Carnage!

 He saved himself 4 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 10
  Levels completed : 10

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Medal of Prejudice
  UAC Star (gold cluster)
  Untouchable Medal
  Grim Reaper's Badge
  Hell Armorer Badge
  Hell Arena Key
  Gatekeeper Silver Badge
  Destroyer Platinum Badge

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  .........................................................|#
  ........................................................}|#
  ........................................................|.#
  ..........................................................#
  .................................................X........#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ..........................................................#
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 70/50   Experience 129049/16
  ToHit Ranged +12  ToHit Melee +12  ToDmg Ranged +2  ToDmg Melee +2

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 3)
    Hellrunner       (Level 3)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 2)
    Dodgemaster      (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Triggerhappy     (Level 2)
    Cateye           (Level 1)

  Int->Int->SoB->SoB->TH->MCe->Fin->Fin->WK->WK->HR->HR->DM->TH->HR->Fin->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   fireproof red armor [6/6] (99%) (P)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   hyperblaster (2d5)x3 [30/40] (P1)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   cerberus steel boots [0/0] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   power battery (x85)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] tactical rocket launcher (6d6) [5/5]
    [b] assault shotgun (7d3) [6/6]
    [c] nuclear plasma rifle (1d7)x6 [24/24]
    [d] nuclear BFG 9000 (8d6) [40/40]
    [e] BFG 9000 (11d6) [100/100] (P1)
    [f] Malek's Armor [3/3] (100%)
    [g] Angelic Armor [7/7] (100%)
    [h] power cell (x47)
    [i] large med-pack
    [j] large med-pack
    [k] large med-pack
    [l] homing phase device
    [m] envirosuit pack
    [n] envirosuit pack
    [o] shell box (x100)
    [p] shell box (x59)
    [q] shell box (x100)
    [r] rocket box (x20)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    Melee      - internal 0%    torso 4294967266% feet 0%   
    Acid       - internal 25%   torso 25%   feet 100%
    Fire       - internal 25%   torso 80%   feet 100%

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    90 former humans
    130 former sergeants
    62 former captains
    116 imps
    101 demons
    280 lost souls
    44 cacodemons
    22 hell knights
    80 barons of hell
    26 arachnotrons
    41 former commandos
    31 pain elementals
    43 revenants
    67 mancubi
    42 arch-viles
    7 elite former humans
    5 elite former sergeants
    5 elite former captains
    2 elite former commandos
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 lava elemental
    1 agony elemental
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind
    1 John Carmack
    1 Arena Master

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 2 he entered Hell's Arena.
  He left the Arena as a champion!
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  He defeated the Hell Arena Master!
  On level 5 he found the Arena Master's Staff!
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 11 he witnessed the Wall.
  On level 11 he assembled a hyperblaster!
  On level 11 he assembled a fireproof armor!
  He massacred the evil behind the Wall!
  On level 12 he assembled a tactical shotgun!
  On level 12 he romped upon the Abyssal Plains.
  He slaughtered the beasts living there.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  He left level 16 as soon as possible.
  On level 17 he stumbled into a complex full of mancubi!
  On level 19 he entered the Vaults.
  On level 19 he found the Malek's Armor!
  He cracked the Vaults and cleared them out!
  On level 20 he assembled a cerberus boots!
  On level 20 he was foolish enough to enter the Mortuary!
  On level 20 he found the Angelic Armor!
  On level 20 he assembled a tactical rocket launcher!
  He managed to clear the Mortuary from evil!
  On level 22 he entered the Lava Pits.
  He managed to clear the Lava Pits completely!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  He nuked level 24!
  He defeated the Mastermind and found the TRUE EVIL!
  Then finally in Hell itself, he killed the final EVIL.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 hits John Carmack. You are hit!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : Iainuki (boosted) | floor | [ m ]ore
 Targeting canceled.
 You quickly reload the hyperblaster.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : John Carmack (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John
 Carmack.
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : John Carmack (almost dead) | pool of blood | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits John Carmack. The missile hits John Carmack. The missile
 hits John Carmack. John Carmack dies. Congratulations! You defeated John
 Carmack! Press <Enter>...
 You feel relatively safe now.

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 1157 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 1058 of those were killed.
 2 of those were killed by something unknown.
 19 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 64 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 14 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 10 killed the bitch and survived.
 4 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Rather than chasing the badges with incredibly luck-based openings (which seems to be most of the Platinum/Diamond/Angelic ones), I've been trying to find ones that are easier to get started.  Destroyer Platinum seemed like a good bet, and it did indeed prove an interesting challenge.  Angel of Mass Carnage plays very differently compared to the standard game in ways that both help and hurt, though on the whole I think it's clearly beneficial once you learn the strategies.  I definitely got significantly better at it over the course of the challenge, and the amount of grinding Phobos Base Entry was an order of magnitude less compared to most of the other high badges.  I suspect having learned the damage avoidance strategies required here will make me a better player in general.

My standard Cat-Eye scout build was the obvious right choice here, since the best way to minimize damage is not to let anything shoot at you in the first place.  I completed one run before this one where I misremembered the amount of damage you could take and still get the Untouchable Badge, which is why this game didn't pick up Destroyer Silver and Gold too.  This run had very little good luck at all.  The only notable thing that went my way was finding a phase device before Phobos Anomaly that took me out of the ambush.  Hell's Armory had a useless schematic.  Envirosuit packs were very thin on the ground, so I had to save modpacks to make cerberus boots for the Lava Pits.  (The envirosuits in the inventory at my end came from the Lava Pits and the last level.)  I only saw three agility mods the whole game, so I had no tactical boots, just A-modded cerberus boots.  P-modding a hyperblaster in AoMC is a bad idea because of the knockback, I discovered.  The one mistake I really regret though was getting nervous on Babel because I almost had Gatekeeper Diamond too, if only I hadn't been a little greedy against the Cyberdemon.  Now I have try to do that again.

20

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!

« on: April 17, 2020, 16:42 »

Intuition 2, then don't enter the monster's range on your turn, let them wander into your vicinity instead. I learned this trick watching one of Tormuse's videos when I finally gave up on trying to figure it out myself - even if it ended up as simple as this. That is, maneuver so that the yet-invisible monster would be marked at the very edge of your FOV, both before and after your move, thus if he'd get closer you will have the first chance to act. Doorways and ambushes aside, of course. With doorways, you would need a lure or wait until all enemies (detectable ofc) on the other side of the door are close to the wall with the door so that they won't see you entering the square with the door. With ambushes, I believe your best bet would be using phase devices prior to an ambush or right after it like in City of Skulls.

I definitely don't have any trouble doing it with Intuition 2.  (This is why I end up playing so many scouts, and often go Intuition 2 as my first traits.)  I'm trying to figure out how to do without Intuition 2, for all the challenges where I can't have that.

21

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 16, 2020, 02:41 »

Turns out the answer is 1 complex of cyberdemons per run, even though the Ao666 runs are quite a bit longer.  Also worth noting, The Good Rogue's thread, https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7849.msg65862.html, also involved a full clear, though on HMP.

22

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 14, 2020, 23:31 »

What I could find for complexes of cyberdemons with search:
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7429.msg64653.html
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7261.msg63832.html
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6554.msg57378.html
https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7849.msg65862.html

Clearly not complete because Radagast's thread is not on it.

23

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 13, 2020, 18:00 »

Out of curiosity, has anyone looked at enough Ao666 Nightmare mortems to have a good sense of how many cyberdemon complexes you'd expect to see?

24

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 12, 2020, 15:18 »

One quick comment on Radagast's run - note that his final killcount of Cyberdemons is 17, and he only missed one kill the entire game, meaning, at most there were only 18 on that floor, and he only claims 8-9 of them were present there(the rest were probably randomly wandering other levels, as they do on Ao100). Even those few apparently gave him almost too much trouble to prevail - and as you say, that's only a UV game. On N!, not only does the HP go up, but so do the numbers, and numbers continue to increase the deeper you find the complex... and this was about the earliest it's possible to find one.

For comparison, in the UV run I just finished I only saw 5 cyberdemons the whole game.  I am definitely too lazy to look through other UV Ao100 mortems to try to get an average count of cyberdemons with and without a cyberdemon complex, but I suspect that Radagast's "8 or 9" was actually an undercount of the total cyberdemons on that level :).  Maybe they were only estimating how many were actually visible at the same time?

Papilio's ranking is certainly an interesting thread - do note that he lists challenges of higher difficulty(Strongman and Everyman come to mind), albeit not necessarily Luck and Skill, which have since been completed. I also do think that there's something to be said for experience and instinct over repeated Speedrunner attempts, and that grinding it long enough will eventually allow a victory. I'll concede, however, that he is definitely one of the best verifiable players this game has ever seen(behind only Tormuse in Angelics, and his Diamond count is actually even higher!), and I grant a lot of weight to his assessments here as a result.

One thing I strongly agree with him on is the Pacifism Angelic - which he rates at 30 luck and grind, and the same difficulty as Speedrunner. I'm pretty sure that if any Angelic badge is statistically impossible, it's this one, and I'd be hard-pressed to find a way to upgrade it to Archangelic level - I contend it's already there =P

I think UAC, Demonic, Speedrunner, and Pacifism are the Angelics that haven't been beaten?  I agree that Pacifism is the most impossible of them, followed closely by Demonic.  I think papilio probably thinks no one has the amount of time it would take to get Speedrunner given that they rated it luck 27 and grind 23 :). Their ratings of the rest of the angelics look broadly reasonable to my eye.  They give Everyman a higher skill rating but lower luck and grind ratings, which is consistent with Tormuse having since achieved it.

25

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 12, 2020, 02:50 »

I found a first person account of a Cyberdemon complex on level 71 in a UV Ao100 game: https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6379.msg55396.html#msg55396.  I think Radagast did manage to kill them all, though narrowly.  Their rockets do hurt each other, apparently.

They would have more HP on Nightmare.  I don't know how cybernano phaseshift compares to cerberus armor for protection with various levels of TaN, but clearly if you wanted to undertake this insanity I'd suggest some serious study of how to maximize protection against nightmare arachnotrons and cyberdemons with reasonably common starting ingredients.  It clearly is possible to full clear one, though, even without the Inquisitor's Set.  You do need to be lucky with gear, and Radagast's Scavenger helped there.

papilio also thinks speedrunner angelic is impossible: "UAC/Demonic/Speedrunner Angelic is just absolutely impossible, at least I think."  (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7235.msg63680.html#msg63680)

26

Discussion / Re: Quick questions thread!

« on: April 11, 2020, 14:38 »

Is there a way to avoid every monster getting a free shot on me while exploring on Nightmare?

27

Discussion / I loathe Ultra-Violent/Nightmare Phobos Base Entry

« on: April 11, 2020, 14:37 »

I spend most of my time playing DoomRL these days playing Phobos Base Entry over and over and over, and consequently I've developed a real hatred for it.  These complaints are specific to the high-difficulty version.

1. It's boring.  There are about four or five different layouts, so once you've learned them all, it's the same thing every time.

2. It's random.  There are some things you can do to mitigate the randomness, but there are huge factors that are outside your control that are massively swingy.  The big ones are the hit and damage rolls of the initial formers, the movements of the first two sergeants, and your damage rolls and whether the sergeants get a chance to use up their medkits.  This is worse for some challenges than others, Angel of Berserk is particularly bad.

3. It's important.  You can easily come out of Phobos Base Entry with 50% health and no medkits or 80% health and two medkits while making no serious mistakes either time.  More than half my games I just quit out of Phobos Base Entry because an initial roll went poorly, and I know the game isn't worth continuing.

I think the first problem is what makes this worse than other roguelikes with brutal early games, even though DoomRL's early game is the most brutal of any roguelike I've played.

28

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 11, 2020, 14:07 »

Cyberdemon vs mancubi - there are more differences than just HP pool. First, cybies target, mancubi wander, thus you will always get all the cyberdemons up your face in a small amount of time after entering a level with them, while you can evade most of the mancubi should you hide in a corner and knockback all of visible ones out of range. Second, cybies have more range than the player, meaning you will get rockets fired at you from off screen, and should you play say MAc, this would mean they always will have an edge over you without fire protection, mancubi have equal sight radius. Third, cyberdemons are immune to (their own only, or all cybies'? Unclear) splash, from at least their own attacks, so MAYBE two cybies can eventually kill each other should you say reload a plasma shrapnel being invulnerable, but mancubi DEFINITeLY aren't immune so if caught in crossfire, you have a decent chance to both dodge all mancubi rockets, provided you are at range, and kill some of them while not firing a single shot, but you cannot do the same vs cyberdemons.

Fair points.  Assuming we're in a situation with enough armor to reduce their fire damage to 1, how much worse does that make them?  Does everyone who plays Ao666 immediately flee levels with all Cyberdemons?

29

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 10, 2020, 13:15 »

Cyberdemons come in Complexes, not Caves, and they'll soon start to annihilate all the walls near you, exposing you to fire from more and more of them simultaneously and severely limiting your positioning options. It's not so much accumulation or burst as it is aggregation - once you have 5 or 6 of them firing at you every action, it's pretty easy to get one-shot, even if you could otherwise mitigate damage from a smaller number. And 5 or 6 is a low estimate of what you might be facing even on spawn, much less later on as they start to collapse on you.  Fire Immunity is necessary for Cyberdemons because as I mentioned, they tear up the walls and you're soon under attack from absolutely stupid numbers of them every turn, while lava elementals, if memory serves, have a napalm effect, which will eventually leave you with nowhere on the level to stand that isn't fire.

This is a very similar problem to mancubi, who do somewhat less damage per rocket but fire more rockets.  Having been in some of these situations, I'm not convinced that fire immunity per se is necessary, high resistance and some protection has been sufficient for me to take on mancubi even with a lot of cover destruction and being knocked around by multiple rockets every turn.  If I understand the mechanics right, nightmare arachnotrons are so dangerous because they fire 6 shots, each of which can only independently be reduced to 1 damage by plasma resistance, so no matter what you're taking 6 damage/enemy action (if they hit) without Survivalist?  A Cyberdemon only has 1 rocket so can do 1 damage/action assuming enough resistance and protection, while mancubi do 3 damage/action.  The damage from Cyberdemons and mancubi can also be limited more easily with Dodgemaster, which doesn't do much against nightmare arachnotrons.

Lava elementals do napalm the floor but you're going to need some means of walking on lava, the Inquisitor Set, the phaseshift set, or cerberus boots.

I think clearing nightmare arachnotron caves is going to be the riskiest task for Centurial Nightmare Ao100/Ao666.

You are correct, nanoshrapnel is excellent for agony/pain elementals and lost souls, while other nanomachic weapons would certainly help. Of course, this does mean that, in addition to everywhere else on the run where luck is going to be key, you'll need to find a nano pack before your first agony cave. Not impossible, certainly, but by no means a given.

Or include melee in the build.  I don't know what the right combination of traits for attempting this is, though I suspect that master traits may not be the direction you want to go.

Yeah, I have a feeling this would be the true death of any attempt at such a mortem. Even with excellent luck for hundreds of levels, most attempts will eventually encounter a situation that can't be survived while maintaining the 100% killcount. I can't imagine many people would have the persistence to keep at this one long enough to complete it, especially considering the very high difficulty of even getting such a run started, and the overwhelming tedium and time investment required by the full N! clears.

You're not going to try it ;)?

Actually, I suspect Speedrun is quite doable. I've never been much of a speedrunner at any game, and I managed an 8:07 N! win on graphical mode after a relatively small number of attempts. Granted, that's still less than half the speed demanded by the badge, but I think that if someone were to dedicate enough time and practice to speedruns, they'd eventually get a set of floors that was winnable in that time. A big part of that is building up the instinct needed to react almost instantly to various situations, and then have that instinct be correct during the winnable run. In any case, while the number of attempts to achieve this would certainly be higher than for Centurial Archangelic, the time cost per failed attempt is, by definition, almost insignificant.

Okay, I grant that it's a possibility.  I hadn't seen that run before you pointed me to it.  For some reason searching didn't find it.

Now, if we want to create a Speedrun Challenge worthy of an Archangelic Badge, might I suggest Compet-n Silver Cross on N! Ao100? ;)

Of course, if we insist on Archangelic Badges requiring Archangel challenge games, then Compet-n Silver is probably out of the running - maybe N! AAo666 in under three hours?

Either one is about 3-4 floors a minute(18 seconds per floor for Ao100, or 16 seconds per floor for AAo666), which is slightly more lenient than the current Speedrunner Angelic - the extra challenge comes from the lack of exploitable special floors, and the marathon grind(note that the slowest actual award, Compet-n Silver, would require a pace of 22.2 floors per minute, or about 2.7 seconds per floor[!], which I suspect is well and truly outside of the realm of possibility - probably even for an optimal AI, at least in a number of attempts that could be made in anything approaching a human lifespan).

Either of those would be impressively difficult, I agree.  That Ao100/Ao666 late-game floors are harder than any floors in the normal speedruns would also make the challenges significantly harder, IMO.

30

Century Lounge / Re: [U|Ao100|99%|YAVP] Centurial Platinum

« on: April 08, 2020, 18:52 »

Not necessarily - but on N!, they spawn earlier and with larger numbers of enemies than on U.

Actually, my mistake, I was using the N! number there, the earliest a nightmare arachnotron cave should appear (assuming I have the difficulty numbers right) is 46 on UV.  On N! they can start at 43.  Assuming the wiki is accurate, this difference isn't that big.  The real problem is that you have to be able to murder your way through a pile of nightmare arachnotrons by dungeon level 43 or so, and it's not immediately clear to me what the best way to do that is.

And as I mentioned, there are worse types of caves that can also spawn - I mentioned Shamblers and Cyberdemons, which are both worse than even Nightmare Arachnotrons.   Lava and Agony Elemental Caves are also possible, and without fire immunity, Cyberdemons and Lava Elementals are all but certain death.

Is there no way to avoid or limit the damage from them?  Shamblers and cyberdemons are huge HP sponges, but their burst damage potential is weaker than many normal enemies.  Is it the accumulation of damage or the burst that's the problem?  Why is fire immunity mandatory, as opposed to very high fire resistance being sufficient?

Agony Elementals aren't quite so deadly, but clearing them with ammo is almost impossible, and clearing them with melee can be extremely painful - I don't think I'd want to try it without Vampire, which imposes some rather problematic restrictions on your build path.

A nanoshrapnel shotgun would be the best non-melee option, but any nanomanufacture high damage weapon would probably be sufficient with an appropriate build.  I don't think melee is required.

There are also Nightmare Demon caves, which are an absolute atrocity to survive, much less clear.

FWIW I encountered two late-game Nightmare Demon caves this game and cleared both of them without any significant trouble.  Having the Jackhammer helped, but I suspect any build with sufficient shotgun firepower could manage.

Ultimately, the point I was making is that there are a hell of a lot of ways to end an AAo666 run, especially on Nightmare!, and a lot of those ways are out of your control as a player - if you get a bad level/spawn, you need to flee or die, and a prospective YAAM run prevents fleeing, leaving only death as an option.

Gambler's ruin is definitely the problem I would absolutely be worried about, though I think horrible normal levels should also be on the list.  (Elite formers feature prominently in my nightmares.)

While I certainly still believe it's within the realm of possibility, I think it's easily more challenging than almost any Angelic badge in existence - certainly it's a big step farther than the associated Angelic badge, Centurial Angelic. If it were an actual challenge, I'd call it Archangelic Centurial - but of course, we don't need such a category when only a handful of players can even touch the ordinary Angelics =P

I wouldn't go quite that far, I think the Speedrun Angelic is outright impossible ;).  This one is merely almost impossible.