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1

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 09, 2012, 19:49 »

\you are wrong.
They are not the same.

And MCe is a great addition to DG, thats true.

The are the same to the extent that I die in the exact same spot with both. That is, the lost soul ambush before the bruiser brothers.

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Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 06, 2012, 19:22 »

Unless you're playing Angel of Marksmanship, what you're doing wrong is not carrying a chaingun and a shotgun or two.

I thought I mentioned this a few times, but I am doing Angel of Marksmanship.

I've tried both a DG and MSs build, though at that point of the game (Bruiser Brothers), they're both pretty much the same. I also tinkered with an Int (MCe) build, figuring I could take the whole knowledge-is-power approach, but without pistol traits, I was not terribly effective. However, I haven't spent too much time on that build, so I might just need a little more practice.

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Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 05, 2012, 18:04 »

You really do your homework. Maybe that's why I suck at RL, I need to commit more. :D

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Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 04, 2012, 21:35 »

Wow, shark, well done. Thanks.

5

Requests For Features / break up running.

« on: April 03, 2012, 22:20 »

You want to limit running to 30 actions a level? That's cool, makes sense. But what about being able to break it up a bit? Rather than getting just one shot at it, why not be able to toggle the mode, which is limited to 30 cumulative actions per level?

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Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 03, 2012, 18:01 »

haven't you found any phase devices yet?

Sometimes. I would say I'd find them in about 25% of my games by the time I get to that level. It's strange. If I do find them, I find quite a few (at least 2-3), otherwise nothing.

I think I need to reconsider my defense (or lack thereof). I have no active or passive defense, just tactical, which I think is weaker w/o Int or MCe. It kinda makes me want to either ditch pistol masters entirely and go MCe (for stronger tactical), or go MGK for some form of active defense.

@shark: Thanks for the stats, but I was wondering about endgame (so I could plan ahead). I had a pretty solid guess about anomaly, what with how often my AoMr characters die there. :P

7

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 03, 2012, 13:53 »

Try investing a point into hellrunner. You'll probably want to have dodgemaster before cybie.

I'd do that if I was going for MGK, but for other builds, I have too many other trait obligations. As is, by the time I get to the bruiser brothers, I have only 4-5 traits under my belt. How many levels can one expect to get by endgame (per difficulty, of course) anyway?

I had considered developing a defense-oriented build (both active and passive, probably no master traits), but I haven't been terribly motivated to toy with the idea.

BTW, you must go towards the door you came from.

That's always my plan. This way I have access to a couple health globes if I need them.

One of the ways is wear red armor and take Ber(or be in berserk through berserk pack) and rocket jump.

Two problems with that. One, Ber is kind of a waste of a trait with a pistol build. Two, I can't use a rocket launcher playing AoMr.

Side note, does vampire work with ranged weapons? I'm guessing not.

Alternatively, try playing on UV.

How would that help? I'm getting my ass handed to me just on normal.

8

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 03, 2012, 05:27 »

Are you sure you were running? That should have given you enough speed to escaped with just a few scratches.
Then again, I think I haven't played AoMr with the new soul AI.

Those bastards are fast. There's no way I could ever outrun one of them, even with max speed. I hate lost souls with a passion. I'm planning to build an energy pistol when I find the mods, if only for those bastards.

This has me thinking of another tactical consideration. That is, second weapon vs. ammo chain. One lets you switch between damage types, the other gives you almost instant reloads. Even on AoMr, having a solid pistol as a main piece and energy pistol for appropriate situations could be pretty handy.

Another tip is to make sure you start running before the walls drop.

I had thought of that, but I figured it wouldn't help much. I'll have to give it a shot in my current game (which I just started...again).

9

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 15:38 »

If it is AoMr, then you can try phasing out. Alternatively, you can outrun most of them. Just remove anything that slows you down and remember about Running mode.
It is good to put some speed-increasing-mods on equipment - or create certain assemblies.

Made Tac armor, but couldn't find a single set of boots. In any case, I took another shot, I was surrounded 1 turn after the ambush sprung and dead two turns later trying to get back to the spawn point. I didn't have any phase devices either. Five characters in a row now have died at this point. I don't think it's reasonably possible without either a phase device, or a maxed out (at this point) move -and- a non-surrounding spawn.

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Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 13:31 »

Tactical armour helps. Not wearing the red armour helps even more.

I would have thought it would be the other way around being that red offers more protection. According to the wiki, Tactical offers no protection and just bumps move speed (which isn't terribly valuable when corner shooting). I've actually been planning to save mods until I could build some red power armor. What makes tactical armor so good?

11

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 12:54 »

Might I ask what caused you to not like DG much?

I never did the math myself. I probably should have, as the info I've read has said that MSs was stronger due to armor late in the game. I wouldn't have wanted to go with a DG, just to consistently hit a brick wall later on. But, what you say makes more sense than what I've read before.

I just died again, with a DG, on the bruiser level, though not by the Bruiser brothers. Coming out of that first room, I was mobbed by lost souls and that Cacodemon. I've done this before, though it was always with a TaN character. My DG didn't stand a chance. I let the Cacodemon pelt me with fireballs, as it also would take out some lost souls. However, I couldn't heal/deal damage fast enough to last more than a few turns. I didn't think I'd do well, but thought I would last longer since I was able to take out the Arena Master without a scratch.

12

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 10:06 »

Ok, so now I'm thinking either:

SoG>SoG>DG>EE>EE>Int>Int>WK>WK
for a Tech

or

SoG>SoG>DG>Int>Int>Fin>Fin>Wk>Wk
for a Scout

btw, does the scout's speed bonus apply to all actions or just moving?

I'm thinking the scout might be the stronger option especially if the speed bonus applies to attacks. First, you get Int sooner. Second, I think Fin might be stronger for pistols than EE. Fin2 is 30% more lead in the air, while EE2 is just 17% more accurate at best, less so at close range or if you're aiming.

I wonder which is more valuable with either build, SoG3 or SoB. SoB is basically just SoG, but without the speed bonus (though SoG only applies to pistols), right?

In any event, after this, I'm not sure if I'd be better off going for MGK (HR>HR>DM>GTK), maxing out SoG and maybe getting some SoB (SoG>SoG>SoG) for max damage potential, or maybe even shooting for Badass (TaN>TaN>Bad) for endurance. I'm guessing the SoG approach is stronger since with Int2, I should need to be dodging much, but I don't really know.

13

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 08:45 »

In the 10 minutes since my last post, I just got killed at level 3 (my lowest level kill ever), mainly from getting pelted by shotguns that were outside of my visual range. Do sarges have a longer visual range than me? I spent the entire time moving in such a way to be in a good corner shot position, and I'm only playing on Normal difficulty, and I get iced when I'm only Level 3.

I think dualgun build is easier for new players. You don't have to go for any of the masters if you don't want to. Extra SoG and/or EE, SoB, Finesse can make you a killing machine even without master traits. It's all about shooting incredible ammounts of bullets extremely fast.

Come to think of it, I think SoB might offset the damage penalty that comes from DG against armored opponents (compared to MSs). However, while you don't have to deal with masters, I would think it takes more traits in the long run. Sure, it only takes 3 traits to get to DG (versus 7 for MSs), but when you add in the SoBs, extra SoG, and Finesse (which you have to do for Whiz Kid) or EEs, you're passing MSs easily.

In any case - if shotguns knock you out of the corner, you are doing something wrong.

Clearly, I am. I've read the guides on it, though. And, I'm doing what the guides say.

And speedloader is definitely worth it in the beginning.

Really, how? I just don't understand. It's only good for combat reloading, of which I do rarely, if at all. Otherwise it's an ordinary pistol.

14

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 08:05 »

You want to learn to corner shoot...

Oh, I'm definitely corner shooting, but it doesn't seem to work all the time, especially against shottys (which knock me out of my corner).

Especially if you have intuition 2, there's no reason to get shot, ever...

I don't have Int2, I've been playing with the SoG>SoG>SoG>EE>EE>EE>MSs>Int>Int plan and usually die before I even get MSs.

hole up in the doorway of one of the buildings with the former humans in it and start shooting blindly down the hallway until the screaming stops.

It's possible to still hit things that far outside of your vision range? I know the armory just goes straight down, but I figured everything just automatically missed at a certain point. Also, what do you do about the Shambler?

Have you watched Game Hunter's videos

I started to, but they're kind of long and I just want to play. :P  I'd rather just ask a few specific questions and try to figure it out for myself.

well, don't just forget that a scout has a 10% speed boost, so playing MGK is somewhat easier in the beginning than playing technician for MSs. While it's remediable with a T mod while I likely get at the start as a techie, at least for shooting speed, I need an A mod (on an armor, since no boots prior to Phobos-5 or Phobos-4) to get the requested effect for moving speed, while the scout can just remove the armor and run-run-run.

The thing that turned me off of MGK has to do with the armor of enemies later in the game. MGK and MSs have comparable base damage potentials, but MSs does it in fewer shots, which means less is soaked up by armor. As for running, I'm always hesitant to go to that mode. It only lasts for so long, and you can only do it once per level (or burn a healing item to recharge it).

But you can startscum with Tech to instantly get yourself a speedloaer.

I almost always get the speedloader mods to start. I always save them for something better, though. Since I rarely have to reload in combat, I don't see the value of burning two mods that gives me an ordinary pistol that reloads faster.

Just a note on my builds: When playing pistols, unless going for a SoG-less game, then I'll go straight for Sharpshooter without any sidetracks, and then either go for Int/WK depending on the number/kind of mods I have and the difficulty.

Yeah, that was my plan, but I'm consistently getting ganked before I even get to MSs.

15

Discussion / Re: dual vs. single wield pistols? (and a couple random questions)

« on: April 02, 2012, 00:54 »

Depends. Are you playing angel of marksmanship?

Yeah, I unlocked it, so I figure I might as well since I'm toying with a pistol build.

You might try Gun Kata or Pistol Dance, as well. Dual gunner makes a world of difference.

My original plans involved a GK and DW build, but I'm finding myself in a lot of situations where GK wouldn't be any help (i.e. narrow hallways). As for DG, I figured that since its usefulness peters out in the long run, it wasn't really worth the investment.

In your first build, you generally want to stand your ground and fire fire fire at enemies, because firing your weapon is what you're the fastest at.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing, and getting smacked around. Even by sarges with shottys, the knockback messes up my position and they tend not to follow. So, I have to charge in again, sometimes taking another hit.

man, how do you get past Arena?

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if I have. I think that, except for the one time I did die, I skipped out of the final round. When I did stick around, I was using medpacks like every turn just to stay alive, though I still bit it in the end.