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DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: Malek Deneith on December 16, 2007, 12:44

Title: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Malek Deneith on December 16, 2007, 12:44
There are two reasons for this topic:

1)First one is the Revenant - the only original monster (sans Spider Mastermind, which is a boss-type monster and thus in completly diffrent league) that still havn't made it to the game. Of course the reason for this are his trademark homing rockets, which are hard to port without giving them the dreaded auto-hit. So I propose we start brainstorming - maby we can think out somethign interesting (one thing I suggested was making Rev's rockets sort of semi-creatures that stay "alive" for limited time and try to catch you, but even I myslef see problems with that idea)

2)Second reason are Doom 3 monsters - I'd like to discuss whether some monsters from Doom 3 could make it to DoomRL (the sounds would be a bit of an issue, but then again we can substitute other monsters sounds). My opinions on those would be as follows:

Zombie citizen - eh, both cannon fodder and weak melee unit roles are already taken - maby an special level filled with those for a laugh, but otherwise skip it.

Chainsaw zombie - this one could be interesting, but crash a bit with chained court - maby a late game, rare spawn as a secondary source of chainsaw?

Maggot - not too interesting, sadly - skip it.

Wraith - now that's something interesting - they could could take over imp's melee role (give them lunge attack, as one that Berserk! bulldemons have and either phase at will or controled teleport), and regular imps could get an AI-shift into "more shooty, melee secondary" type.

Trite - can't see a way to make them interesting.

Tick - suicide bomber anyone? :D

Cherub - another one I can't think of use for.

Hmmm, 3 I found possible use for, 4 that I did not see use for... but then again maby someone else has ideas on those monsters - discuss.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Potman on December 16, 2007, 13:03
I've always thought there should be Spider Mastermind appearing in Spider's Lair, once you've cleared all the smaller Arachnotrons.

As for Revenants... Well I really can't see problem with them semi-creature missile thingies. You could guide them at another enemies, right?
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: sn0rb on December 19, 2007, 14:16
Quote from: Malek Deneith on December 16, 2007, 12:44
1)First one is the Revenant - the only original monster (sans Spider Mastermind, which is a boss-type monster and thus in completly diffrent league) that still havn't made it to the game.

You're forgetting Baphomet =p

Then again, I suppose Endguy already covers that post, seeing as he spawns monsters and otherwise sits there waiting for you to kill him.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: 007bistromath on December 30, 2007, 12:30
Revenant and Spider Mastermind: YES.

Doom 3 monsters: DO NOT WANT.

This game is all about old schoolin'. It's more old-school than old-school. It's a roguelike of the game that came after Wolf3D, FFS. Doom 3 doesn't exist here.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Malek Deneith on December 30, 2007, 12:37
Yessss... it's god old-school weapon mods, old-school traits and old-school inventory all of which original dooms had. [/sarcasm]
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Conker on December 30, 2007, 12:44
In terms of zombie citizens as weak melee cannon fodder... What about a special level FILLED with them? I mean, we have the City of Skulls, but Lost Souls are fast and have nasty damage. If we had something that's incredibly weak - but in massive numbers - in an early special level, it could be fun and unique.

Say a layout similar to the Spider's Lair, except there's a massive amount of former citizens (imagine former humans without a pistol, and who only take one shot to kill). The challenge for the player would be killing them quickly enough before they got overwhelmed.

For it to be any challenge at all, it'd have to come early - before things like the BFG made it a non-challenge. Perhaps pre-arena?
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: 007bistromath on December 30, 2007, 12:45
Quote from: Malek Deneith on December 30, 2007, 12:37
Yessss... it's god old-school weapon mods, old-school traits and old-school inventory all of which original dooms had. [/sarcasm]
It ain't the reality man, it's the flavor. This game would suck on ice if it had the mechanical depth of the real thing. It's a roguelike, duh it has to have more to it. But it still feels like old-school Doom. Doom 3 wasn't nearly... ridiculous enough. It forgot what it was and tried (failed, but tried) to be a Serious Horror Game instead. The enemies were probably one of the main reasons for that.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Rabiat on December 30, 2007, 15:02
I'm sure I'd enjoy a special level crawling with zombies. Especially if there were several varieties as in Doom 3 (melee, chainsaw, chaingun), and if they'd respawn. To make up for this they'd have to be slow, easy to kill, and stupid, attacking without regard for themselves or their fellows. On the other hand, this could turn out to be an easy variant of the mortuary, and the zombies' stupidity might require specific AI.

Wraiths could be interesting for their teleporting ability, but I'm afraid they'd cause lots of unsatisfactory instadeaths. Especially in a game with so many random factors as a roguelike, players should be able to rely on tactical gameplay, not luck.

Exploding barrels are among the things that make DoomRL a great game to play. It'd be even greater if they'd move. Therefore, Ticks are cool. And yes, they'd be terribly unfair to berserkers.

Cherubs would unfortunately have very little use, which is a shame because they're positively horrific in Doom 3. I can't think of a way to scare the player with a baby 'c' though, without some defining behaviour.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: DaEezT on December 30, 2007, 15:18
Chainsaw Zombie all the way!

You want a chainsaw? Take it from its cold dead hand! :D
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Blade on January 15, 2008, 12:27
/me raises his hands. The topic suddenly rises from the dead!

So, maybe somebody have interesting suggestions and ideas how to make Revenant in turn-based roguelike game?)
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 15, 2008, 12:32
Just one quick comment -- Slower-Than-A-Turn missiles are out of the question.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: DaEezT on January 15, 2008, 13:17
ok, I'll tell you all the obvious solution for the Revenant since nobody seems to notice: Just like any other monster!

That's right. We gave up on fireball dodging when we took the step from real time to turn based and every god damned splash baddie instant hits you. You can't even dance around Cybie's rockets ffs, so why the big fuss about the Revenant?

So the solution for the Revenant is: Fires two time per attack (like the Mancubus), both shots have minimal splash and always hit (ignores evasion). Maybe give them some nice looking animation e.g. the rockets don't fly straight and instead go in arcs.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Blade on January 15, 2008, 13:26
Quote from: DaEezT on January 15, 2008, 13:17
You can't even dance around Cybie's rockets ffs, so why the big fuss about the Revenant?

You can dance around him for ALMOST forever with HR*3. So why should we grant to Revenant ability to insta-hit? I always felt that experienced original DooM player is just DooM RL player but with almost all traits maxed(at least HR, IM and EE). And newbie DooM player is DooM RL player without traits at all because he can't dodge single fireball, miss pretty often and die very fast.) Maybe grant Revenant chance to-hit that is higher than other monsters have? There should be always some chance to evade that rocket, even if it's small.

Quote from: DaEezT on January 15, 2008, 13:17
So the solution for the Revenant is: Fires two time per attack (like the Mancubus)

I very dislike DooM 3 Revenants that fired 2 rockets. In DooM 2 they fired 1 rocket at a time.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Potman on January 15, 2008, 14:15
Let's say that Revenant has higher than average chance to hit, but if the rocket misses, it'll automatically home to some other random monster close to you. Hilarity ensues.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Cora on January 15, 2008, 14:31
Idea:
If you hide behind the wall, revenant still will shot a missle and this missle, doing an semi-circle path hit a character.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 15, 2008, 15:07
Quote
always hit (ignores evasion)
I don't feel good about that - autohit monsters are eeeeeeevil... my three recent ideas were:
-give them high to-hit and leave at that
-give them chance to "re-roll" missed hits
-give them two types of missiles - one with greater splash/damage but with lesser accuracy, and other with lesser damage and minimal splash, but with great accuracy and/or to-hit rerolling (based on doom wikia that claims that revenants had two types of missiles - homing and unhoming)
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Rola on January 15, 2008, 15:51
But as I understand Rev's rocket doesn't have to be the rocket we know already? Why not making it a lot weaker (with minimal splash) but giving very high accuracy.

Oh, and I'm against Doom3 monsters. Add them if you wish yourself - when the modding option becomes available.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 15, 2008, 16:32
@Doom3 monsters - when I started the discussion modding capability wasn't announced. Now that I know it's planned and how powerfull it is I do agree that it'll be better to make D3 mod/total conversion rather than adding them to the base game.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: 007bistromath on January 16, 2008, 03:28
Modding? Sweet! That means I can drop that armor weight junk and fix the trait system. :p
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 16, 2008, 03:58
Armor weight removal should be possible unless I'm mistaken, but "fixing the traits" not - traits are too integral to the code.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: 007bistromath on January 16, 2008, 11:26
Bleah. Sometimes I almost wish the source would open up so I could learn to code and fork the project.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2008, 11:49
What would you "fix" with the traits?
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: DaEezT on January 16, 2008, 13:31
Quote from: 007bistromath on January 16, 2008, 03:28
Modding? Sweet! That means I can drop that armor weight junk and fix the trait system. :p

WTB: 1x[Armor Weight Removal]
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: 007bistromath on January 16, 2008, 21:03
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 16, 2008, 11:49
What would you "fix" with the traits?
I've thought for a long time that some conceptual focus would greatly improve the trait system. They all work well enough for the most part, but there are some strange things about the system that make it not as much of a tool for specializing as it could be. I'd experiment with balance changes, completely rework the prereq structure, and possibly even modify the progression mechanic itself somehow if I had the time to mess with it really deeply and could wrap my head around the actual "programming" part.

PS: I'd also like to rejigger some challenge modes. Will the modding tools include that capability?
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 17, 2008, 02:25
Well, post a request for change of the trait system somewhere and post your exact suggestions and we'll think about it :). And yeah, the whole challenge system is already fully modable :D.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: 007bistromath on January 17, 2008, 02:32
I've tried suggesting a couple things before. Asking for any but the most popular changes to traits is a dry hole, as it's the sort of thing that you really can't go screwing around with unless you have the ability to experiment. Hence, my hope they could be modded.
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: Zeb on January 18, 2008, 22:22
Quote from: sn0rb on December 19, 2007, 14:16
Quote from: Malek Deneith on December 16, 2007, 12:44
1)First one is the Revenant - the only original monster (sans Spider Mastermind, which is a boss-type monster and thus in completly diffrent league) that still havn't made it to the game.

You're forgetting Baphomet =p

Then again, I suppose Endguy already covers that post, seeing as he spawns monsters and otherwise sits there waiting for you to kill him.

Massive spoilers, for both DoomRL ad Doom 2:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Revenant and Doom 3 monsters.
Post by: packrat on January 19, 2008, 09:10
Invisible demons (AKA spectres?) are also missing, aren't they?

I agree in general about NO to Doom 3, but if we have a 'former human commando' which was not in any Doom, why not a chainsaw zombie? (BTW former humans were actually called Zombieman, Shotgun Guy, and Heavy Weapon Dude in Doom 2.)