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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Radagast on March 28, 2013, 06:07

Title: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Radagast on March 28, 2013, 06:07
Yesterday I learned the "hard way", that I should have never tried to play nightmare.

No I'm not talking about the difficulty which yes it is absurd, but I'm talking about the fact that you can't even save your game and come back to it later. What's up with that? How come?

You do realize you block players completely with this... Some of us enjoy this game playing at our own leisure and we also have work in the mornings/noons and can rarely play consecutively for more than 1 or 2 hours. It's pretty obvious a nightmare run is impossible in such a short time length.

My experience in this game is mainly from HMP and UV games. Some of you here have seen few mortems I've posted recently, I take my time in my games, that's how I enjoy doomrl, so I usually do 5 to 10 hours for each normal run, entering as many special levels as I can and playing carefully, it's just my style I can't play faster really, it's a tactical game after all.

But I made the mistake of thinking that I could give a try to nightmare too. With all that corpse resurrection and gibbing and thinking you must do just to "survive" and not die, how the hell am I to finish any run (I know I can't with my current skills, but even if I could) if I can never even save my game? ... I just cannot understand the logic behind it...

It's probably the only real complaint I have, for an otherwise great and free community game.

PS: For the record I had to quit the game before the arena due to a RL reason...
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Klear on March 28, 2013, 06:15
See this thread (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6113.0.html).

Basically, saving on n! is not going to happen, it seems.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: LuckyDee on March 28, 2013, 06:31
I agree with Radagast (and others) that however rediculous N! is in its own right, the inability to save is just one bridge too far.
The slow pace of playing is something that should be conquerable though, given time.

However, since I'm still stuck on HNTR, I don't see myself in a position to actually argue for either side of the discussion.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: thelaptop on March 28, 2013, 06:41
N! is not supposed to be fair and is designed for people seeking a challenge.

No compromises on this one.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Klear on March 28, 2013, 06:44
Personally, I rarely save even UV games, and when I try n!, I never play for that long. Well, except for when I was attempting Ao100. I had to leave my computer running a couple of times there, despite barely making it to half of the game.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Radagast on March 28, 2013, 07:04
Not being fair is pretty fine as I said. Obviously I seek something harder when I choose nightmare over UV to give me incentive and motive through challenge alone.

But having to compromise my RL to play 5 or 10 or 20 hours straight just to finish one single run, is certainly the most silly thing I ever encountered in game design from the days of my youth. - it's not personal, I just feel that way about it -

If the game was indeed a coffee break game I might have thought otherwise, I certainly wouldn't have that issue.
Anyone who has played desktop dungeons?? Now THAT's a coffee-break roguelike game.

But srsly this game would be coffee-break only if it had just 10 levels or so. With no special levels at all. I'm pretty sure in oldest versions of doomrl, you wouldn't even care to save and exit since the game was so short in length. But with 10+ special levels and another 24 normal levels, how anyone would even remotely think of this as a coffee-break game is truly beyond me.

Not to mention the Ao100 and now the even more absurd Ao666 challenge game. You might as well change the difficulty name "Nightmare!" to "2Dev" difficulty in the end, since you are just targeting a 1-2% of the player base after all, blocking almost all the others. And I thought accessibility in open source gaming, was by far the most important part of game design.

Have fun trying to finish Ao666 taking weeks or even months of your life with a powered-on computer. Just pray to the Goddess of Luck Tymora that no power failure happens. And that no-one else in your family might accidentally shut down or restart your computer........
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Klear on March 28, 2013, 07:15
It might be best to think of DoomRL as roguelike rather than a coffee break game. You'll suddenly find it extremely forgiving and accommodating. In my days of youth, there often wasn't any saving at all...

Oh, and archangel of humanity already has the difficulty rating of "twodev" =P
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Radagast on March 28, 2013, 07:29
Quote from: Klear on March 28, 2013, 07:15
It might be best to think of DoomRL as roguelike rather than a coffee break game. You'll suddenly find it extremely forgiving and accommodating. In my days of youth, there often wasn't any saving at all...

@Klear, just fyi I'm 31 and started with Ataris/Amigas and DOS playing b&w games before color and windows OSes appeared. I grew up with a pc since I was 4 or 5 always a gamer. Even if there wasn't a save game option in many of that eras games, it doesn't mean they necessarily needed one. Most were too short to actually need one. The ones with real good design though, had also that aspect of the game covered.

I still love oldschool games from  the 80s-90s, at times I even play some of them just for the nostalgy, but the fact that we could not save in all games of our youth does not mean that it was in any way "good" or "convenient". We just accepted it back in the day cause we didn't have much choice. Nor does it mean that we should be using those days as excuses for bad modern design. Things change. Eras change. Just my two cents.

PS: Also we were kids at the time, which means we had endless free time, which also means we didn't care that much if something did have a save feature or not. A bad comparison for the roguelike genre, since it is not exactly a kid-friendly genre. Imagine playing adom as an 8 year old? Obviously we can't. When you see something new as a kid, you get excited easily, you don't really see the faults in it, you ignore them. This doesn't mean old games were flawless though and that we should make new modern games based on their faults too...Does it?
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Lord Typh on March 28, 2013, 08:24
You know, you could just try having a 'Suspend' option in place of a save feature.  If you wanna stop and come back to it later, just suspend the game and it'll close.  When you load up a suspended game, it deletes what was saved and loads it up for ou, preventing save-scumming.

Sound alright?
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Klear on March 28, 2013, 08:29
Quote from: Lord Typh on March 28, 2013, 08:24
You know, you could just try having a 'Suspend' option in place of a save feature.  If you wanna stop and come back to it later, just suspend the game and it'll close.  When you load up a suspended game, it deletes what was saved and loads it up for ou, preventing save-scumming.

Sound alright?

How is that different from the way saves already work?

In any case, I believe the point is not to discourage save-scumming per se, more like to make sure n! doesn't play soft with the player.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Lord Typh on March 28, 2013, 09:10
There's being reasonably hard and then there's just being rude.

At the very least, you should be able to pause the game and take a break for a while without having to leave it running.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: LuckyDee on March 28, 2013, 09:22
Quote from: Lord Typh on March 28, 2013, 09:10
There's being reasonably hard and then there's just being rude.

Quote from: thelaptop on February 22, 2013, 09:41
Are you kidding?  N! begins with the question:
Are you sure?  This difficulty level isn't even remotely fair! [y/n]
And you're complaining about the continual handicapping of fair players?

That, I guess, is Nightmare! for you.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: Matt_S on March 28, 2013, 10:19
Ahh, this can of worms again.

Quote from: Klear on March 28, 2013, 07:15
It might be best to think of DoomRL as roguelike rather than a coffee break game. You'll suddenly find it extremely forgiving and accommodating. In my days of youth, there often wasn't any saving at all...
It's funny because roguelikes allow saving.  Even the original Rogue.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: thelaptop on March 28, 2013, 12:18
Why debate something that is already stated outright to be uncompromisable?

If you can't "beast" N! within 2 hours, perhaps your skill in the game hasn't reached that level.  In that case, play at a level that you are comfortable with.

We take feedback seriously here, but when it comes to saving on N!, the official stance is that it is not going to be supported, and that the decision there is uncompromisable.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Tormuse on March 28, 2013, 13:50
I just had a thought...  (Sorry thelaptop, I know you would prefer this discussion not continue)  Since this version of the game connects to a server, (for downloading mods) how hard would it be to have the game upload Nightmare saves to the server?  That way, the devteam can control and monitor the saved games, prevent save-scumming and any other form of cheating, and then the save feature would truly just be used for taking a break so you can come back to the game later.  I know you said there won't be compromises, thelaptop, but I think that could be a good compromise.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Ashannar on March 28, 2013, 13:59
Disappointing. :(

I expect to fight the game, but I didn't think fighting the developers would be part of the difficulty of N!

If someone wanted to cheat they would just run DoomRL in a VM and save/load entire game states. Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Radagast on March 28, 2013, 15:31
Roguelikes actually never had such an issue. Not rogue the original, not nethack, not adom, nor any of the modern good ones either such as stone soup, desktop dungeons, tome, dredmor, ftl or any other for that matter.
Roguelikes are supposed to be tactical games with turn based decisions, like it or not. Speed was never a goal, much less a necessity to play. Private lives should get a break when they need to. All such developers respected that, always.

Quote from: Ashannar on March 28, 2013, 13:59
Disappointing. :(
I expect to fight the game, but I didn't think fighting the developers would be part of the difficulty of N!
Indeed and that's the most challenging difficulty of all. Disappointing indeed.

Quote from: Ashannar on March 28, 2013, 13:59
If someone wanted to cheat they would just run DoomRL in a VM and save/load entire game states. Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.
Truer words were never spoken...

Negativity is understandable at times and when there is good reason, but this time there are not even decent arguments to back it up, that's what makes me sad mostly.

Tormuse's idea is probably pretty decent if feasible but anyway, I think I won't continue any more talk here since it's obvious that this is not even a proper discussion in the first place.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: raekuul on March 28, 2013, 15:49
Quote from: Ashannar on March 28, 2013, 13:59
Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.
DoomRL is the only Roguelike I've played where locking the HP was the only precaution a hex cheater had to take to win.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Matt_S on March 28, 2013, 20:59
I'm disappointed that something that even a couple of supporters would want is simply non-negotiable, but fine.  I won't ever bring the subject up again.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Equality on March 28, 2013, 21:56
Quote
If someone wanted to cheat they would just run DoomRL in a VM and save/load entire game states. Or use a hex editor to make themselves invincible.
Hex editor and invincible is not an option. If you try that )
But of course we can convert our pistol to devastating 20d20+20, explosive radius 6, damage type 'plasma' or upgrade any of that weak green armor to 100% resist all :)))) items can be changed. Changing player properties not so easy.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Tormuse on March 28, 2013, 22:33
Quote from: thelaptop on March 28, 2013, 12:18
If you can't "beast" N! within 2 hours, perhaps your skill in the game hasn't reached that level.  In that case, play at a level that you are comfortable with.

This quote made me curious about what my average Nightmare! times are, so I browsed through my old mortems...

Spoiler: Lots of links (click to show/hide)

(Hopefully, I didn't miss anything)  :P

There's a wide range of times, because I'm including both Ao100 games and speedruns, but all of the above listed games are Nightmare! games in which I won.  I'm doing a lot of rounding with the times, but it gives a good cross-section of my playing speed.  The average comes to just under 12 hours per game.

So, thelaptop, do you still say this means that I'm a "not skilled enough" player that should "play at a more comfortable level?"  ;)

I'm being facetious, of course, but my point is that difficulty and skill have nothing to do with this discussion.  Fairness has nothing to do with this discussion.  Not being able to save doesn't mean you need to be more "skilled" to complete the game and being able to save doesn't make the game more "fair."  I think yaflhdztioxo had an excellent point in the other thread that the purpose of not being able to save at N! is a psychological one.  It's a kick in the balls to remind you of what you signed up for.  I get that.  I understand it.  It works quite well, actually.  I've tolerated it up until now because it's the only way I can win Diamond badges, but I still find it a nuisance leaving my computer on for long hours and I still think it's prudent to make an exception in the case of Ao100 and AAo666 because some people might not be able to leave their game running all day and all night and I don't like the idea of penalizing them like this.

The Devteam is welcome to do whatever they want regarding this issue, but this is my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  :)
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Ashannar on March 28, 2013, 23:02
Quote from: Matt_S on March 28, 2013, 20:59
I'm disappointed that something that even a couple of supporters would want is simply non-negotiable, but fine.  I won't ever bring the subject up again.

I definitely wouldn't want the developers to kowtow to everything supporters want. That'd be a good way to ruin the game. I think the game is great, and I was perhaps a bit too negative earlier.

Does anyone know if you can alt-tab out of the game and then put your computer in sleep mode and then resume your game when you un-sleep your computer? That would be a good workaround for me.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: MaiZure on March 28, 2013, 23:13
Quote from: Ashannar on March 28, 2013, 23:02
Does anyone know if you can alt-tab out of the game and then put your computer in sleep mode and then resume your game when you un-sleep your computer? That would be a good workaround for me.

I believe the answer is yes - I play exclusively on a laptop and I have had to just close it and move (making it hibernate) many times, including in the recent version. I have no problems opening it back up and jumping back in to the game.

The only real danger is forgetting just how precious my situation was at the time I broke the DoomRL mind-meld. "Oh yeah - this was AoMC and that Baron just blasted me down to 5%"
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: AlterAsc on March 28, 2013, 23:57
Hibernate works for me too.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Klear on March 29, 2013, 02:25
Hibernation once messed up my chrome, but DoomRL is as stable as ever if you hibernate/sleep.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Flame_US3r on March 29, 2013, 07:49
Quote from: Tormuse on March 28, 2013, 22:33
I think yaflhdztioxo had an excellent point in the other thread that the purpose of not being able to save at N! is a psychological one.  It's a kick in the balls to remind you of what you signed up for.

I think Tormuse/yaflhdztioxo are right here. It really doesn't make sense for many of the other reasons stated in the thread. Walking away/hibernating/sleeping are no different because it is a turn based game (unless your power goes out heheh).

Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on March 30, 2013, 13:47
Ok, time to take up an official statement. There are three reasons why N! doesn't allow saving:

1) as already stated, it's a psychological trick - not only of a kick in the balls, but also that "there's no leaving of Nightmare!" - it's supposed to enforce a feeling of inability to escape.

2) secondly it is to encourage an increase of speed in playing the game. Once you enter Nightmare, you're encouraged to learn to play fast, for a different feel, supporting the already dynamic DoomRL environment

3) finally, and maybe most importantly, it is to discourage cheating. Let me however state something here -- it is pretty obvious it's not any serious prevention - memhacks or VM's are totally workable. But people who can use those are *not the people that I want to prevent cheating*. The prevention is against people that are casual PC users, that can copy files, and actually do that as soon as they see the game deletes the saves. It's an obvious thing that many first time roguelike players do. Such people can go through the game up to to UV, without actually *knowing* that they miss a lot of the thrill of the game. The inability of saving in N! is to give those people a chance at experiencing the thrill of permadeath.

That said, it is true that the game grew out beyond a length that would be considered "coffee-break", so if I find a reasonable solution (just "enabling N! saves" is not a solution), I might consider.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Fanta Hege on April 02, 2013, 13:13
If you guys really are that conserned about save scumming on N! make this happen:
"Are you sure you want to save the game? You will not earn any badges if you do so Y/n?"
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: thelaptop on April 02, 2013, 13:46
Quote from: Fanta Hege on April 02, 2013, 13:13
"Are you sure you want to save the game? You will not earn any badges if you do so Y/n?"

"Nah nah!  Just kidding!  You can't save on Nightmare!"

*exit game*

I like this idea!  Thanks Fanta!
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: Tormuse on April 02, 2013, 14:13
@Kornel, what do you think of my suggestion above of putting Nightmare! saves on the server?  That would address your number 3 concern.

And you can combine that with other people's suggestions of limiting the number of saves.  (Or perhaps only allowing a save after a certain number of levels have gone by?   Perhaps you only get the option after a minimum of level 25?  Or 50?  And then you lose the option until another 50 have gone by?)  That might address the number 1 concern.

As for number 2...  I usually die if I go fast, so I don't know what to do about that.  :P
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: thelaptop on April 02, 2013, 14:23
Quote from: Tormuse on April 02, 2013, 14:13
@Kornel, what do you think of my suggestion above of putting Nightmare! saves on the server?  That would address your number 3 concern.
That will require substantial rewriting of code.  Not sure if this will ever get done given everything else.  While there is a "server" now, observe that it is still in its infancy and has more of a "pull" model than a "push" model -- writing to the server is no where implemented yet.

Quote from: Tormuse on April 02, 2013, 14:13
And you can combine that with other people's suggestions of limiting the number of saves.  (Or perhaps only allowing a save after a certain number of levels have gone by?   Perhaps you only get the option after a minimum of level 25?  Or 50?  And then you lose the option until another 50 have gone by?)  That might address the number 1 concern.
There is a limit: zero.  Last I checked, zero is a number.  But on a more serious note, the merits of this is out of the scope of the thread because it pertains only to Ao100 or ArchAo666.  Let's wait till Kornel returns from the Eclipse before we open a new thread to yell about that.

Quote from: Tormuse on April 02, 2013, 14:13
As for number 2...  I usually die if I go fast, so I don't know what to do about that.  :P
Play fast, but not too fast?  I dunno... you're on your own there...
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty is not Accessible for slow players
Post by: skarczew on April 02, 2013, 16:30
Quote from: thelaptop on March 28, 2013, 06:41
No compromises on this one.
HAHAHAHA, a very bad joke, Sir.

Tell me why UV is harder than N! in certain aspects? Huh? You don't know? Go check then ;) .

Quote
ave fun trying to finish Ao666 taking weeks or even months of your life with a powered-on computer. Just pray to the Goddess of Luck Tymora that no power failure happens. And that no-one else in your family might accidentally shut down or restart your computer........
You have to upgrade your PC to a laptop, or buy an UPS. Don't forget about 8 GB of RAM, some multicore CPU and 1 TB SSD drive. Oh and progamer keyboard is a must.
Only then you can think about being "like 2Dev" and playing N!.
Title: Re: Nightmare! difficulty not Accessible to slow players
Post by: thelaptop on April 02, 2013, 20:11
I think there is enough "discussion" here even after Kornel's words on the matter.

I am locking this thread.