Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: ultimate26 on August 09, 2012, 11:19
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What do you guys put on it if you had:
FIN-WK-SOB-SOB-TH-TH
I always try to put atleast 1 B mod and the rest either Ps or As.
Any thoughts?
Side Question: Focused Double Shotty vs Jackhammer with 2 TH. which one is better to keep?
Thanks guys
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Bs and Ps all the way. Shouldn't really need As as much because it is already fairly good in that regard, Ts maybe (1s is okay). I'm never really blessed enough to have so many mods rolling all over the place that I can afford to be fussy, but if I did, Bs and Ps. I can always use more ammo and more damage. On everything.
As for your side question, this one is tough for me. If it came with the Nuclear Plasma Rifle above, I'd go for the Jackhammer. Why? Well, after emptying the Nuclear Plasma Rifle and waiting for it to reload, I'd be paranoid about getting caught with my pants down with the focused double shotty and needing to reload that too. With the Jackhammer, at least I'd have a lot more shots available to me before having to reload.
With Shottyman? Focused Double Shotgun.
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Plasma rifles need one Agility mod to keep it from missing so much. Once you have that, Technical mods and Bulk mods are worth much better. This is in-line with Thomas' original guide to playing DoomRL. All these are under the assumption that you are not getting EE -- you may substitute each A-mod with one EE taken.
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each A-mod with one EE taken.
Each 2 A-mods as EE gives +2 and A-mod gives +1.
And quite strange build imo.
Without EE i would go with A2T1 or A1P1T1 - instead of increasing possible number of inaccurate shots (B-mod), i'd increase have less shots my each of them is more likely to hit, making your overall damage output much more stable.
With EE (and if you can take it you really should do it) T1P2. And with WK2 add two B-mods.
Added: and btw, how do you get nuclear plasma at character lvl6?
Added2:i would keep FDS.Jackhammer is one big black shell hole.
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Added: and btw, how do you get nuclear plasma at character lvl6?
A lucky vault, perhaps? If I understand the formula on the wiki here (http://doom.chaosforge.org/wiki/Room_Generation#Vaults) correctly, a nuclear plasma can be generated on the very second floor on N!.
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I got it on spiders lair, probably had more levels but i usually go for 2 TAN then badass for the extra health
As for jackhammer, trigger happy adds an extra shot which makes it really good no?
Anyone know how accurate is a plasma rifle without EE or A mods? whats the hit rate?
1 A mod is enough to make it decent?
I dont like getting EE because I often start with shotgun juggling for no reload speed then try to go for assault chaingun assembly so that my gun is accurate by nature without the need of EE, then 2 TH make the assault chaingun a really powerful weapon along with the hyperblaster.
Late game i always use the nuclear plasma with hyperblaster on my 2nd slot to kill stuff but I like having a Focused double shotty handy for crowd control and melee option.
now FDS vs Tactical Shotgun? which one would be better?
It does make sense that you dont want to have to reload with FDS after nuclear ran out but FDS does very tasty damage when corner shooting
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now FDS vs Tactical Shotgun? which one would be better?
My usual answer is that the FDS is a better use of the mods, but if I have that choice, I'm usually playing a shotgun build. Without Shottyman the choice isn't as clear. You don't really need all that damage when corner shooting as you can just use a TS (or any normal/focused shotgun for that matter) to lure enemies in range of your heavy hitting rapid-fire weapons. FDS just seems to waste a power mod here. Out in the open, reload times would kill if you planned on using it more than once, you're better off with a missile launcher
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Anyone know how accurate is a plasma rifle without EE or A mods? whats the hit rate?
1 A mod is enough to make it decent?
I dont like getting EE because I often start with shotgun juggling for no reload speed then try to go for assault chaingun assembly so that my gun is accurate by nature without the need of EE, then 2 TH make the assault chaingun a really powerful weapon along with the hyperblaster.
Basic accuracy of chaingun and plasma rifle(and nuclear one too) is +2, which is 74% chance to hit in point-blank range.
This means that near the border of your vision your chance to hit is 50%.
With EE1 it becomes 74%, with just one agility mod and no EE it is 62%.
See the difference?If you want to rely on rapid-fire weapons you really should take EE if you can.If you can't and you don't have MAc at least put agility mod.
Hyperblaster have +4, so it's okay to use it without EE but benefit from taking EE is still noticable.
About Jackhammer and TH - yes, it is more or less good, but as enemy gets knockbacked from every shot, every next shot deals less damage. After all it's always about shells and Jackhammer(especially with TH) burns them fast.So beware of running out of them.
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My only rapid fire weapons are assault chaingun and hyperblaster, anything before that is shotgun juggling.
So you recommend having atleast 6 to accuracy when using rapid fire weapons for better results?
My ideal build goes like, FIN-JUG-SOB-SOB-WK-TH-TH then TAN but i should maybe add a EE somewhere in there?
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One thing to consider is that adding P mods to a rapid-fire weapon can be counter-productive if you already have a few points of SoB. Once a weapon is capable of doing 12 damage per shot, it'll start causing knockback, which means that you'll start knocking enemies out of visual range, and all shots get an automatic 50% accuracy cut when they fly into the dark.
I once made a burst nuclear plasma rifle. I don't recommend it, partly for the knockback issue but mostly because it's extreme overkill against the wandering single monsters you find while you're exploring. You also have to wait a long time for the clip to fill back up after you've burned all your ammo away with just a few large volleys. An F-modded nuclear plasma rifle has the same problems.
I had the pleasure once of finding two sniper mods in a single game (I might have been playing as scavenger) and I stuck them both on the nuclear plasma. With Int(2), 99% of all opposition died before laying eyes on me, at zero ammo cost. I'd say that was the ultimate nuclear plasma build.
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So you recommend having atleast 6 to accuracy when using rapid fire weapons for better results?
One level of EE can't hurt and really helps.And it's much more helpful then TaN.
In your build i would insert EE after you start using rapid-fire weapons, meaning probably right after WK.
Also you may want to consider taking WK2 before assembling hyperblaster to mod it further with P/T/F.
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Can a nuclear plasma rifle be made into a Hyperblaster? That would probably be one of the best mod setups for the nuke p-rifle if it can be done.
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Kind of like how the combat shotgun is still a shotgun, but can't be made into an elephant gun, the hyperblaster has to be made out of a regular plasma rifle. Nuclear plasma rifle is an entirely separate weapon.
Nuclear hyperblaster would be kind of crazy awesome, but probably too good for an Advanced Assembly. Possibly too good to even exist, since it would beat out a nanomac'd plasma rifle, and that's a Master Assembly.
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Possibly too good to even exist, since it would beat out a nanomac'd plasma rifle, and that's a Master Assembly.
That's debatable. And I'd submit that a vanilla Plasma Rifle with unending ammo beats out any Hyperblaster.
In the context of limited ammo, the Hyperblaster is better since it puts out about as much firepower as a regular plasma rifle, but with the ability to "modulate" the ownage. A Hyperblaster can be used efficiently against weak enemies due to the lower burstcount, and enables more tactical options with the reduced firetime.
When it comes to a situation that demands balls-out ridiculous maximum firepower, the Nanomanufacture Plasma Rifle wins easily. Even a Nuclear Hyperblaster would need to stop and recharge eventually.
That said, I'd still like a definitive answer if anybody knows if a Nuclear Hyperblaster can be built. I'm away from my main machine and DoomRL so I can't test this myself. I honestly have no intuitive guess for this one; I'd think that it could be done, since the Biggest F'in Nuclear Gun is a thing, and yet...
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No there's no such thing as nuclear hyperblaster.Definitely.You can only do assault one, but that's a waste of a good gun.
Btw hyperblaster puts out more than regular plasma as (2d4)x3 is done in 0.5s.
More over, with TH2 hyperblaster deals 10 shots in 1.0s, while vanilla plasma only 8.
Even better - T-hyperblaster has firetime of 0.4s so it's 2.5 times faster and iirc it's da best rapid-fire weapon (aside from bfg10k).
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No there's no such thing as nuclear hyperblaster.Definitely.You can only do assault one, but that's a waste of a good gun.
Wait, how do you make an assault hyperblaster? I thought you could only add one mod to a completed assembly?
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Sorry for confusing you, i meant assault nuclear plasma.
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Sorry for confusing you, i meant assault nuclear plasma.
Oh! Yeah, no worries. Isn't Burst Cannon Nuclear Plasma also an option?
And since you brought it up... Why do you view Assault Nuclear Plasma as a waste of a weapon? Do you mean just vanilla? I think an Assault Nuclear Plasma with a Firestorm on it or a Power mod on it would be pretty awesome. If I went Burst Cannon Nuclear Plasma, maybe a Sniper pack. Unless there's something I'm not taking into consideration (other than the fact that not everyone always takes EE2 like I do)
Those are fairly ridiculous though.
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Short version: because assault rifle assembly is quite not good.
Long version:
Example:
A2 chaingun vs assault chaingun
+4 accuracy both, both use 4 bullets.
I assume all shots hit.
Against enemy with 0 armor one deas (1d6)x4 other one deals (2d5)x2. 4d6 vs 4d5.Really "cool" increase in firepower.
If enemy has armor, then assault is a bit better.
If you have SoB2, you will deal more damage with A2 chaingun because most of the enemies had 2 or less armor.
If you have SoB5 and fire against enemy with 2 armor: (1d6+3)x4 vs (2d5+3)x2. Even "cooler" than without SoB.
Triggerhappy helps a bit, but at the cost of your ammo.
The same applies to plasma rifles, but plasma damage cuts armor in half, so you don't care much about each shot being stronger.
Assault plasma is (2d6)x3, right? You lose the same 6 cells, but you deal less damage.There are much better ways to improve your DPS and use your mods, than using this crippled assembly, which was good in the past.
End of long version.
Bout burst cannon:
1d9 x 8 with +0 accuracy, and maybe one more mod.If you don't have EE2 your shots are not likely to hit anything exvept walls.
With the same EE2 you can do P2T3. 0.6s firetime, same +2 dices.And it's more accurate.
The best DPS setup for plasma rifle (and nuclear too)(assuming you max SoB and TH) is A2T3 for no-EE wieldes and T3 and something for those with EE.
Added: probably i got a bit carried away. Assault rifle assembly is at best when you're completely incompetent with rapid-fire weapons and it becomes worse when you become better.Burst cannon has the same problem,but to a lesser extent.I mean that if you have SoB5 and your burst plasma deals 1d9 it means that quite often bullets will knockback the enemy, and due current implementation most of the time you will knockback your enemy out of your bullet path, so rest of the volley will miss.
It leads to such problems like A1P3 plasma rifle is worse than A1 plasma rifle if you have SoB5.I experienced it myself and was quite confused when i saw enemies surviving two or sometimes even three volleys of (1d10+5)x8.
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Good stuff! Now we're talkin', this is exactly the indepth kind of look I wanted on these guns. I rarely if ever use chainguns, so this helps show me why modding a plas in a certain way is "bad"; it isn't bad as a weapon per se but it isn't any more efficient than just using a chaingun with far less mods and way earlier on (which means it's redundant from a DPS viewpoint, as you've stated).
I'm totally obsessed with the nuclear plasma rifle, so I usually aim for that, hence my love of EE (sometimes even Cateye).
I'll have to see how a TTTPP one works out, and, luck willing, a TTTFF or at least TTTPF.
Nanomac'd weapons are funny because you can just spray and spray, but it isn't so funny when they get you killed because they're missing shot or not doing as much damage as they could me.
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(Analysis)
Mmmph. I didn't bother crunching the numbers; rather I was going sort of by "feel". Also, I was considering a Nanomanufacture P-rifle, which doesn't need reloading.... ever. To me, bottomless ammo is a pretty nice selling point, though I'll freely admit that the Hyperblaster is one of the best weapon assemblies in the game, and is easily capable of eclipsing an unmodded p-rifle.
Nanomac'd weapons are funny because you can just spray and spray, but it isn't so funny when they get you killed because they're missing shot or not doing as much damage as they could me.
Just reserve a single A- or S-mod, or take a level in EE. The former should always be available since the assembly needs WK2, but the latter option may not always be possible. Furthermore, SoB and TH are your best friends with bottomless magazines. The old requirements for Ammochain were WK2 and TH2.... the natural synergy was downright stupid, especially since old Ammochain flat-out stopped ammo consumption for rapid-fire guns.
(Minor derail) Also, a Nanomanufacture Rocket Launcher is absolutely hilarious.