Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: rchandra on January 17, 2012, 04:00

Title: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: rchandra on January 17, 2012, 04:00
Because of:
a) A player with a rocket launcher at this point probably cleared Hell's Arena and is thus not in chained court (normal)
b) the berserk packs no longer make it completely trivial to get in and out of the rooms behind the lava

I think it would be nice to move the mods from the corners into the rooms guarded by caco/HK/Baron.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Game Hunter on January 19, 2012, 11:30
I was thinking about possibilities for a redesign. Here's one draft:
Code: [Select]
##############################################################################
##########............##########==============##########............##########
#######.............h....#######==============#######...........h......#######
####...........########.....####==##|..".|##==####........h...............####
###...h........########......###==##|h..h|##==###....................h.....###
##.............##...B##.......##==##|....|##==##..........########..........##
########.......##....##.......##==##########==##..........########....#####+##
#......#...h...########&..h....#==##########==#....h......##....##....#......#
#.>.h..#.......########........···+·^····^·+···...........##...B##....#h.....#
#......#..........h............#==#··@·····#==#...........##....##....#......#
#......#.......................#==#····\···#==#..........&##....##....#......#
#.....h#.......########........···+·^····^·+···...........##...B##....#..h.>.#
#......#.......########&.......#==##########==#...........##....##....#......#
##+#####.......##...B##....h..##==##########==##.......h..########....########
##........h....##....##.......##==##|....|##==##..........########..........##
###............########......###==##|h..h|##==###.......................h..###
####...........########.....####==##|."..|##==####.....h......h...........####
#######.......h..........#######==============#######..................#######
##########............##########==============##########............##########
##############################################################################


It's pretty simple: throw levers to release the "cages". Once all three are thrown, the middle reward-cages open up. Of course, a player with enough health (or potentially explosives since there's little reason to make things permanent here) could get the stuff without all the hassle.

This is just an example: I'm trying to figure out a good design for early-game. (And if you turn your head, it looks like a Tiki-man!)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 19, 2012, 14:22
Possible deathtrap for phase device. Either mark the inner floors as NOTELE or add levers also inside.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Game Hunter on January 19, 2012, 14:31
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 19, 2012, 14:22
Possible deathtrap for phase device. Either mark the inner floors as NOTELE or add levers also inside.
Assuming this is a good candidate for the revised CC, I'll definitely keep it in mind. Not that phases are particularly common on by dlvl5, but we certainly don't want any impossible scenarios. That aside, I'd like to hear if anyone likes this setup or if they'd prefer something different (and, if you can, explain what you'd like to see instead).

While we're on the subject of special level revisions, I do want to show the map draft I made for a potentially radicalized version of Spider's Lair: once I have access to my personal copy, I'll display it so everyone can see. (Kornel's pretty skeptical but I believe it will provide a far more interesting dynamic to the otherwise-empty landscape.)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: tinyrodent on January 19, 2012, 14:42
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 19, 2012, 14:22
Possible deathtrap for phase device. Either mark the inner floors as NOTELE or add levers also inside.

If that is a concern, then don't some other maps need attention as well? I'm thinking of The Wall specifically. But if tele is prohibited there, it won't make the Brick Silver Badge (http://doom.chaosforge.org/wiki/Badges) any easier... unless there is some trick I haven't learned...?
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: byrel on January 19, 2012, 15:37
I've always wondered if there was some way back across the wall in AoB/AoMr if a phase takes you across. I've never managed to get across in either (bad luck with phases).
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Deathwind on January 19, 2012, 16:47
I still think the wall should just fall apart when the monsters are dead (or put a lever next to the backpack)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: UnderAPaleGreySky on January 19, 2012, 17:44
Quote from: Deathwind on January 19, 2012, 16:47
I still think the wall should just fall apart when the monsters are dead (or put a lever next to the backpack)
I thought the wall did collapse when all enemies were killed?

(Then again, it's been a fair while since I played last, so my memory isn't exactly clear on the subject.)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: tinyrodent on January 19, 2012, 17:54
Quote from: UnderAPaleGreySky on January 19, 2012, 17:44
I thought the wall did collapse when all enemies were killed?

It definitely doesn't in 0.9.9.5, can't speak for previous versions.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: ParaSait on January 19, 2012, 17:55
Quote from: UnderAPaleGreySky on January 19, 2012, 17:44
I thought the wall did collapse when all enemies were killed?
I... never noticed that. o.O
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Tormuse on January 19, 2012, 21:58
Quote from: UnderAPaleGreySky on January 19, 2012, 17:44
I thought the wall did collapse when all enemies were killed?

I've played every version since 0.9.9.1 and it's never done that in any game I played.  There was some talk of making that happen a while back, but I don't think it ever happened.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Ander Hammer on January 19, 2012, 23:26
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4369.0.html


pretty please.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: UnderAPaleGreySky on January 19, 2012, 23:29
Quote from: Ander Hammer on January 19, 2012, 23:26
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,4369.0.html


pretty please.
Ah, I remember reading that a while back. I guess that's what's muddling my memory.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Zalminen on January 20, 2012, 00:28
Quote from: Game Hunter on January 19, 2012, 11:30
I was thinking about possibilities for a redesign. Here's one draft:
Well, it's certainly an improvement over the current one. No more wasting two medpacks just to clear the northern and southern room in AoB.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Gamer-man on January 20, 2012, 19:14
i assumed the agility mods were awards for beating hell's arena or for finding a rocket, this layout cuts the incentive for beating hell's arena drastically.  i'm not sure if that is what you were going for or not, but it is something to take into account (since beating it has a few negative to work with as well)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: MaiZure on January 20, 2012, 19:28
Quote from: Gamer-man on January 20, 2012, 19:14
i assumed the agility mods were awards for beating hell's arena or for finding a rocket, this layout cuts the incentive for beating hell's arena drastically.  i'm not sure if that is what you were going for or not, but it is something to take into account (since beating it has a few negative to work with as well)

Agreed
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Solarn on January 23, 2012, 06:09
Quote from: Gamer-man on January 20, 2012, 19:14
i assumed the agility mods were awards for beating hell's arena or for finding a rocket, this layout cuts the incentive for beating hell's arena drastically.  i'm not sure if that is what you were going for or not, but it is something to take into account (since beating it has a few negative to work with as well)
Well, beating Hell's Arena is still required if you want to get the Arena Master's Staff and it gives nice loot all on its own, so I can't really see your point here.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Deathwind on January 23, 2012, 16:34
I thought the rewards from hell's arena were the rewards for beating hell's arena...

If you feel that strongly about it you could randomize the mods for this version to nerf the reward.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: raekuul on January 23, 2012, 17:16
Just how useful are Agility packs, anyway? How do they compare to other mod-packs in terms of usefulness?
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Deathwind on January 23, 2012, 17:29
2 agility mod equals any of
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Gamer-man on January 25, 2012, 21:24
Quote from: Deathwind on January 23, 2012, 16:34
I thought the rewards from hell's arena were the rewards for beating hell's arena...

If you feel that strongly about it you could randomize the mods for this version to nerf the reward.
i am probably biased from playing AoMr where the rewards for being hell's arena arn't all that great compaired to the chance of death, and most of the point is to get the 2 agilities mods in UnCC.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Solarn on January 28, 2012, 09:51
Quote from: Deathwind on January 23, 2012, 17:29
2 agility mod equals any of
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Can also be used in
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Bloax on January 28, 2012, 10:22
The coolest reward for AoSh would by far be two power mods. :P
Because you know, elephant gun, finally.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: spacedust on January 28, 2012, 10:55
OT, but elephant gun seems like such a waste of 2 power mods... I mean, power mods being so rare and all. The unmodded double shotty always felt like a much more powerful beast compared to the elephant gun.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Game Hunter on January 28, 2012, 11:25
Quote from: Gamer-man on January 20, 2012, 19:14
i assumed the agility mods were awards for beating hell's arena or for finding a rocket, this layout cuts the incentive for beating hell's arena drastically.
You know what I first thought when I saw the second layout of the Chained Court? "Hey, cool, now we'll have to think critically about whether or not we want to clear Hell's Arena, because it forces us to deal with a greater challenge on an otherwise-easy map!" And then nothing changed, because the lack of rocket launcher made the old CC too inferior. Needless to say I'd like to balance it out so that the incentives go in both directions.

And hey, if you (that is, everyone, not just the quotee) would actually like to comment on the map itself (does it look like a good idea? what could improve it?) then I'm all ears.
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Deathwind on January 29, 2012, 16:44
I think the proposed map would be a good change but do we really need 5 zerk effects in this one?
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Game Hunter on February 01, 2012, 22:02
Quote from: Deathwind on January 29, 2012, 16:44
I think the proposed map would be a good change but do we really need 5 zerk effects in this one?
Part of the use of the normal Chained Court is that you can go in there and snag all the zerks and the chainsaw, then leave. It's useful for pacifists and berserkers and stuff. We could play around with the balance but I don't mind keeping the level "easy".

I never got around to posting my sketch for the possible Spider's Lair layout. Here it is!
Code: [Select]
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#####.....................A####.....A.###.A........##.A...##...........#####
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...A.......#.........A........A.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.A.........A.....#......A....
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.........#..#............##....A.,,,#,,,,,#,,,.A.###..........#...#.........
........|#...#..........#........,,,#,,,,,,##.......####....##....#|........
#..*....|#....#........#...........,,#,,.,,..##.........####......#|...*...#
##.......#.....##.....#....A........A,#...A....###..A.............#.......##
#####............##...#................###........###..................#####
############.......###.###............>...####.......####.......############
#######################...######..............#####.########################
It's very...um...different. Additionally it doesn't mesh well with tiles (but I imagine we'll make a cave tileset soon that will make diagonals work, since they appear oh-so-often in that settings). I've actually played it a couple times and the change in how one has to play the level is quite interesting. My hope is that it's better than the completely-open layout that already exists, but I'm open to tweaking it (or scrapping for other possibilities).
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: Deathwind on February 01, 2012, 22:10
I like it but could you open up the walls just a bit?  This looks like it might bring out every single issue with LOS and targeting in one map...

edit: also make the 4 cover walls angled as their current placement offers almost no cover
Title: Re: Chained court (normal) update
Post by: GrimmC on February 02, 2012, 11:14
I like both designs quite a bit. The CC revision is interesting and feels very "Doomish." One confusing point though: Will mod packs be guaranteed even in the normal map? (i.e., without beating Hell's Arena)

Spider's Lair revision is also pretty cool. I always thought the original was rather bland. This one is actually exciting. There's no way for me to predict how it would play though.

Not sure how much more feedback I can really provide, but both look excellent to me. :-D