Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: MaiZure on January 12, 2010, 06:16

Title: Extensions for the new player
Post by: MaiZure on January 12, 2010, 06:16
All of the veteran players know that once you hit Sergeant Major rank, all modes have been unlocked and it's all badge farming until we give up. For the true elite, everything can be unlocked in under a dozen games...so this is an idea to extend the early game experience through adding more locked doors AND forcing/rewarding different styles of gameplay

Ranks are earned on the basis of individual game achievements (skill). Purpose: Unlocks Challenge Modes

Creature ranks are awarded primarily on endurance, you have to play a LOT to get these. Purpose: None (yet). I think these should unlock HMP, UV, and N!, but that's not the main point of this post.

Introducing...
Experience ranks. Earned through breadth of gameplay. Purpose: Unlock Traits and Uniques! Yes - you have to play the game for a little while before defaulting to that MAD build and Jackhammering your way to Diamond badges in your 3rd game. These new gameplay enchancements are far too great to fall in to the hands of a newbie marine!


Green
Exotics, but no uniques!
No advanced or master traits!
The challenge here is creating successful builds on basic traits only - This is what we did prior to 0.9.8.7

Rookie
All Advanced Traits unlocked
Unlocks 5 uniques

Seasoned
All Master traits unlocked
Unlocks 5 more uniques

Veteran
Unlocks all but the most overpowered uniques (see Slyphs guide)

Elite
All traits and uniques (save JackHammers and DragonSlayers for this)

What would this look like
"MaiZure, level 12 Elite Imp Sergeant, sacrificed himself to kill the Cyberdemon"

Ranking up should be based on breadth of gameplay as measured by medals and weapon-type kills. I this because as I read my current player file (new as of this recent beta), I have 7000 kills (118 melee, 1114 pistol, 400 chain, and over 4000 shotgun). I am clearly not a breadth player and shouldn't deserve the title of Elite (not to mention the right to use all the master traits and uniques)

Green -> Rookie
At least 250 kills in each of Pistol, Shotgun, and Rapid
Earn 3 different medal types

Rookie -> Seasoned
At least 1000 kills in Pistol, Shotgun, Rapid, Melee
Earn 6 different medal types

Seasoned -> Veteran
One win on all weapon-type challenges (AoMr, AoSG, AoB)
9 different medal types

Veteran -> Elite
You've won all weapon-type challenges on UV (or N!?)
12 different medal types


Now with the Creature rank recommendation above AND the recommendation that only ONE challenge mode is unlocked per rank instead of 3 or 4, we can create a more interesting game dynamic...You simply can't rise to the top of any of the ranks without addressing the others. For example:

Most can't dream of chasing platinum+ badges without master traits, so you have to take care of skill ranks. But you must also chase creature ranks to be able to access UV. Deferring the uniques will make it a little more difficult to chase badges from the start also.

When you reach Elite, gameplay will be exactly as we know it right now and shouldn't change any balance up to that point. What I hope this type of system would do is promote diverse playing styles before we simply jump in to badge farming. We also find a use for the medals and creature ranks

A few more considerations:
*This concept could probably be collapsed entirely under the currently unused creature ranks we have instead of creating this whole new rank system.

*Maybe traits could be spread over all five skill ranks and uniques should be unlocked entirely within creature ranks. Maybe you can find them but you cant use them until you reach the rank.


A final note on rebuttals:
The 0.9.9 badge enhancement was great for DoomRL veterans because it added new and exciting challenges for advancement. This system, on the contrary, does not add anything new and can easily be called "boring" and "tedious" because it's essentially forcing us to unlock the things that we've already been playing with for years!

But this system was not developed for veterans - it's for the thousands of people who are going to be coming down the road with the graphics version in the next 6 months...These people have never seen advanced traits, or master traits, or the best uniques, and I think we can really entice them to stick behind the keyboard longer if we extend what we already have in place as well as thinking of new and intersting ideas.

DoomRL was fun back in v0.9.8.5 and, I think earning your way to the latest features can be just as rewarding for a brand new player!

So please - Comments welcome!



Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: thelaptop on January 12, 2010, 06:39
I'm all for new challenges, but one reason why the new system was in place was to avoid having to overly limit the player into tedium.  I think that limiting traits might be a little nasty for the new players, since they will hear about this awesome game and find that they need to unlock a lot of things just to get to the level that the forums are talking about -- might not be good publicity.

As for uniques, they are already rare as they are, so deliberately limiting them sounds like an insult to the luck of the player.

Breadth play can probably be simulated in other ways... but then again not every one likes playing in a breadth way -- some like playing in a specialist form, and I think that we should respect the player's wishes that way.

Just my two cents.  (=
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Tavana on January 12, 2010, 06:52
If this idea is accepted: As opposed to restricting the use of uniques, instead restrict the spawn chance of them.

For example:
ChanceToSpawn(Jackhammer)
{
if Player.Exp.Rank()=Elite
return 15
else
return 1
}(Code looks cooler in Mortem tags!)

Nothing sucks more than having an awesome item spawn and not being able to use it, as people without Gut's mindset have discovered upon seeing Dragonslayer.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ParaSait on January 12, 2010, 08:30
Nice job putting effort in typing that suggestion in all it's detail, but nah actually I think we should leave uniques like they are right now. This would really make it unlogic and unnatural.
Sure, one of the interesting aspects of DoomRL is the advanced achievement- and collectibles system which is basically the whole point of the game, but locking traits, depending spawn chance of uniques, or whether they can spawn or not, is a bit "too". ;)
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Fanta Hege on January 12, 2010, 09:37
....
More grind elements? No thank you.

Specialy since you're going about locking uniques, which, you know, were suppoused to those "Will spawn when RNG feels like it" items rather then "Do x amount of this to claim this neat reward" Even if they still have the random spawn factor, but the fact that you're suggesting to lock them from spawning if you havent done x of that makes them feel... not like the uniques we're used to.

We also allready have experience ranks for killing shit and taking medals, even if they don't unlock anything anymore so why add more?

This just... Feels pointless.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Gargulec on January 12, 2010, 09:39
Nah! Nah! Nah!
It disallows me to play as I want- for example, I am not interested in UV AoMR, or AoSg N!- why the heck should I play them, then? What you are suggesting, is, for me at least, grand comeback to the well hated pre-0.9.9 rank system, which forced you to play challenges you did not want to get an ability to play the modes that interests you.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 12, 2010, 11:41
Another vote against. Sorry but I neither want to go through said grind to unlock traits/uniques, nor would I be able to unlock all I want (yes I'm talking about elite rank here, think what you want).
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 12, 2010, 12:09
Yes, the rank-up system you presented is rubbish, agreed with Gargulec. And rather than locking the uniques, let's lock the part of the game, like the demo. A green can't see antythink except firs 15 levels covered in "complex" layout. Next he will unlock the 24 levels without the Cybie (besides challenges), and some more layouts. Also, some monsters, like Mancubi&Revenant are blocked. Like the run through the older versions.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 12, 2010, 13:11
I like it ;)

Instead of nay-saying, propose alternatives please.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Gargulec on January 12, 2010, 15:05
Alternative? What ALTERNATIVE? Hey! I am not an elite, and I do not want to be penalized for not being able to beat AoSg on UV!, by disallowing me from finding a unique, or playing AoMC!
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Tavana on January 12, 2010, 15:11
The idea that's been suggested is too restrictive at the moment, in my eyes. Even with my earlier suggestion.

What I read here is "Let's make it a little less awesome at the beginning, and people can unlock that awesome!" People like awesome. People want awesome. On the flip side, people don't want you to take their awesome away.

I'd like to see these rank make it so the entire breadth of the game as it is right now (UV, N!, Master Traits, Uniques) are able to be unlocked by someone who can complete a HMP AoB run. It takes some skill, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. Then, in response to that, the following ranks - if you can reach them - give you bonuses. It's our way of saying, damn! You spent an extra five hours unlocking things! Good job! We know you're a bit frustrated, but keep going, it gets better!

Suggestions for extra things:
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 12, 2010, 16:01
@Kornel - sorry but in this cease I'll have to keep on supporting Gargulec. I like idea of unlockable stuff, I really do but traints and uniques are where I draw a line.

@Tavana - HMP AoB? Nope. Nay. Nein. Nie. Nada. Personally I've beaten AoB... once... on HNTR. Yes I admit, finally doing that was satisfying.... that one time. And I don't want to repeat the experience in forseable future, and on higher difficulty. If I ever, ever, ever get to play AoB HMP/UV/N! I want it to be cause I either choose to challenge myself or wat a shiny medal - not because I need it to unlock stuff. And I don't wan't to be penalized for my lack of skill - because believe or not I'm a person that still plays HNTR mostly with a slight dash of HMP, and loose more often then win. And even if I'm only one sucking so much right now I don't think I'll stay alone if this comunity starts growing.

Rant & whine end.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: felttippen on January 12, 2010, 16:39
I support Tavanas suggestions.
It doesnt have to be AoB Hmp, maybe something like one full win and some normal ones or something similar.Blocking off master traits doesnt seem to make too much sense to me baucause you need the skill in question to get that far in the first place.If you play HNTR all the time- your fault.Could just play Xbox 360 instead with its "casual" "streamlined" "accessible" "appeal" to modern gamers.Nothing wrong with that.
Blocking off uniques?Im not sure.Could be viable with the addition of exotics, idont know.

But i really like the idea of Premium badges giving slight permanent bonuses- AoH N! could increase doomguys runspeed by 5% by default, or beating N!Ao100 would grant 5 extra HP to every marine,or winning N! AoSh could give point-blank shotgun blasts the possibility to gib monsters so they cant rez, or AoPc N! could have monsters randomly not attacking you for some turns.
To sum it up: some platinum and diamond badges will strengthen the player by default-
if we had this mechanic, we could also add a new set of badges, lets call em laser badges:INSANELY HARD to accomplish, but with bonuses earned from already hard challenges like increased globe spawnrate-unque spawnrate-buffed doomguy AND the skill the player gets from accomplishing these,we might have a winner!
Of course the downright impossible diamonds would have to be revised(Ao100 in under 1 hour?YEAH RIGHT!AoMR w/o SoG?PLEASE!)
Ao100 in under 90 minutes could be a laser badge for example.

Final words: Dont underestimate the appeal of unlocking stuff-its the way the industry works.DoomRL should follow the maxim of "easy to pick up-hard to master" even more than its the case now.People will just LUV it!

Wall of text FTW!

Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ParaSait on January 12, 2010, 17:56
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 12, 2010, 13:11
I like it ;)

Instead of nay-saying, propose alternatives please.
Argh D=
I agree with Gargulec and Malek... Please, PLEASE leave it alone like it is right now. For starters you can only disbalance the game with it, and takes away fun.
The achievement stuff is dependent on how well you do during games, but please do not make it the other way around; i.e. making gameplay dependent on what you achieved. It's like pouring tabasco over a delicious apple cake. ;_;
I'd say, keep it for DoomRL 2..? :S
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Fanta Hege on January 12, 2010, 22:04
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 12, 2010, 13:11
I like it ;)

Instead of nay-saying, propose alternatives please.

Best alternative;
The current system.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: thelaptop on January 12, 2010, 23:17
So MaiZure and I discussed this more over IRC and we have come up with some refinements on the original idea.

We begin the ranking of the player at Recruit and institute a new series of badges, tentatively known as Training Badges.  These Training Badges are designed to provide even more incentives to the new players as more achievable goals as compared to that of the Bronze Badges.  Like all the badge schemes, this one will have 19, and should involve things that are easily attainable by the new player (less tough than Bronze Badges).  Note that being at Recruit does not have any specific limitations -- all Challenge Modes and Difficulty Levels available at Private are still available at Recruit and successfully reaching Level 12 of a normal game (ITYTD and above difficulty) immediately promotes the player to Private.

The badges are tied in to a new difficulty level of Very Easy, tentatively named "Train Me Up, Sir".  In this difficulty level, we have the following properties:
This addition should provide the necessary hand-holding/"tutorial" period for the new player while at the same time not restricting the veteran player who wants to jump in and go badge collecting.

Original IRC log:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: MaiZure on January 13, 2010, 00:17
Thanks thelaptop,

The whole point here (as Malek and Gargulec sort of pointed out), is that most players probably can't win on HNTR. My own side story for that is when DoomRL was passed around my undergrad CS department back in 05/06, of about 50 people, 40 of them played for a week and couldnt manage ITYTD before quitting. About 5-10 beat Cybie and gave up after trying HNTR. I'm the only one who eventually got on the Forum. When I sent a few buddies the 0.9.9, they said it look great...except 4 of the 5 badge pages are pretty much irrelevent for them. Hence the point of trying to find a way to include those who simply can't figure out the tactics but still want to have fun with the Doom nostalgia!

The Training Badge idea is an extention of the lower badges and maybe it doesn't really a need difficulty level - Maybe it should just apply to ITYTD. Although Im not against limiting traits and whatnot, I really think that a partial win on ITYTD to 'unlock' all the stuff we're used to is not really much of a grind for anyone who has posted here in this thread. And I do believe it would be quite fun for those unfortunate 'new' players who spend all their time trying to get through that first difficulty level without success...I know you're out there, even if you aren't on the forum here! Besides...last time I checked, you have to YAAM ITYTD to even get enough levels to do a Master Trait! :P

Props to ZZ - I like that limiting level idea...
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Frankosity on January 13, 2010, 04:08
Roguelikes are hard. WHO KNEW
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ParaSait on January 13, 2010, 04:31
Quote from: Frankosity on January 13, 2010, 04:08
Roguelikes are hard. WHO KNEW
Yea, you got a good point there. And compared to other RL's difficulties, DoomRL is a pussy already.
And cmon people, the current version is 0.9.9, that means "alllllmost finished", so I don't see why you would disbalance the whole brick tower now with these features?
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Thomas on January 13, 2010, 06:09
I say ITYTD is already easy enough as well...

About that 50 man anecdote, the kind of person that plays a game for a week then quits because the game never said "You're great buddy, you sure bested me!" isn't the kind of person that plays roguelikes. It took me a good year to get my first H,NTR victory (on the versions that only had one difficulty, of course), and of the 3 or so roguelikes I play regularly, this is the only one I've beaten at all.

I guess I'm trying to say if they don't have fun losing to DoomRL, why would they have fun beating it?


Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Fanta Hege on January 13, 2010, 06:17
At this rate I'd just say we should just make a tutorial vid or something and jam it in the download for new players to watch. =/
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: thelaptop on January 13, 2010, 06:22
Quote from: Fanta Hege on January 13, 2010, 06:17
At this rate I'd just say we should just make a tutorial vid or something and jam it in the download for new players to watch. =/
Oooo!  In-built demo replay a-la the stuff in Doom!
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: yns88 on January 13, 2010, 08:55
How about VR training, like in Metal Gear Solid?

You put the player in hand-created small scenarios, and task him with objectives (kill all monsters, reach the exit, survive X turns, etc) while also giving tips on tactics. It can range from basic advice for new players to super-hard mini challenges for advanced players.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: thelaptop on January 13, 2010, 08:59
Quote from: yns88 on January 13, 2010, 08:55
How about VR training, like in Metal Gear Solid?
I like this -- it ties in nicely with the framework I put up with MaiZure from our little IRC chat.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Frankosity on January 13, 2010, 09:22
Yeah maybe we can also institute some kind of 'save' system so if they die they can start again from the last point they saved at! And what's with this 'randomised levels' stuff, anyway? That just makes things too complicated for the player!
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 13, 2010, 10:44
You know, I'm going to get sick of saying this, but why don't we hold off on this until DoomRL2?
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 13, 2010, 13:48
The discussion can be flowing until the compromiss point is reached, no matter of time.
And actualy it's good now, because it could be in 0.9.9.1, which is 100$ closer.

Maybe change the behaviour of monsters, so if you're green and you're carying a big&loaded gun they run away, and Cybie don't chase you, the Rookie must be carying smth. bigger to scare those and so on.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Frankosity on January 13, 2010, 14:23
Quote from: Madtrixr on January 13, 2010, 10:44
You know, I'm going to get sick of saying this, but why don't we hold off on this until DoomRL2?

Because there's not even a development schedule for the final version of DoomRL 1? It's like saying you can't count out 3DRealms until Duke Nukem Forever 2 bombs.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 14, 2010, 00:35
...After reading this more carefully, I have decided that, while I'm glad MaiZure is stirring the pot, trying to find a way to get the newbs to play more, I do not like this idea. I cannot propose any alternatives, because I think the system we have now is fine.

...Also, I used "I" too much. Ah well.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Jarkko on January 15, 2010, 08:23
No grinding elements into DoomRL please. If you want to grind go play WoW or another MMORPG. If you want to grind in a roguelike play ADOM.

The only unlockable things should be difficulty settings and challenges. Things that make the game harder. Not things that make the game easier like uniques, and absolutely not (master) traits. Forcing the player to play suboptimal builds for the first 50 games, what fun.

Oh hey,  I just got an idea for an unlockable. A cheat/options menu where you can change player/monster hp, monster/item/powerup spawn rate and stuff like that. This would be an actually nice reward for playing but wouldn't affect normal gameplay.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 15, 2010, 09:15
A JC mode. You can by pressing 'C' key do anything to the level.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Frankosity on January 15, 2010, 10:29
That's silly. If a 'wizard' mode was allowed, then normal players might have a slim chance of finding out how to use the Dragonslayer!
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 15, 2010, 10:50
It was a joke. Actually, now I see two points - the Conservators, who love the current sysrem and somebody, who wants to change smth., but minor changes. I personally like my idea of restricting levels and like the Train me Up, Sir level.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Thomas on January 15, 2010, 10:55
A wizard mode might work, but it should be more of a traditional wizard mode. i.e

Can only be done on HNTR or ITYTD
Game isn't recorded in any form (perhaps even no mortem) and doesn't increase any of the tallies on the player screen.
The only benefit is every time you die the game goes "Whoops, that was silly of you. Do you want to increase your current HP by 50? [Y/N]"

This'd give new players a chance to see lategame and allow them to keep track of every time they do something fatally wrong.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 15, 2010, 12:01
Click this 120 times and you'll survive the nuke. I like the idea of FW without an inv. globe.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 15, 2010, 13:59
Quote from: Thomas on January 15, 2010, 10:55
A wizard mode might work, but it should be more of a traditional wizard mode. i.e

Can only be done on HNTR or ITYTD
Game isn't recorded in any form (perhaps even no mortem) and doesn't increase any of the tallies on the player screen.
The only benefit is every time you die the game goes "Whoops, that was silly of you. Do you want to increase your current HP by 50? [Y/N]"

This'd give new players a chance to see lategame and allow them to keep track of every time they do something fatally wrong.

Now a wizard mode, I can get behind. Come to think of it, it would also allow the everyone to experiment with their stratgies and see what works.

Quote from: Frankosity on January 15, 2010, 10:29
That's silly. If a 'wizard' mode was allowed, then normal players might have a slim chance of finding out how to use the Dragonslayer!

...You're always just going to be so vitrolic on this subject, aren't you? I guess people start to get pissy after a while, because no one will tell them how to pick up the DS.

NOTE: I say this, not becuase I'm being an elitist jerk (that's Thomas's job), but because it's true. I was starting to get mad, but I didn't say anything, and then I found the method, so...it does get annoying, espcially since it's so damn rare.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Frankosity on January 15, 2010, 14:52
Quote from: Madtrixr on January 15, 2010, 13:59
...You're always just going to be so vitrolic on this subject, aren't you? I guess people start to get pissy after a while, because no one will tell them how to pick up the DS.

NOTE: I say this, not becuase I'm being an elitist jerk (that's Thomas's job), but because it's true. I was starting to get mad, but I didn't say anything, and then I found the method, so...it does get annoying, espcially since it's so damn rare.

It's not so much the fact that it's a secret so much as that there's so much secret-handshake smuggery about it on this forum between the people who DO know how to pick it up.

It's practically irrelevant anyway considering it's as rare as a virgin in Essex, especially considering you have to have the right traits/name/phase of the moon/whatever esoteric anime bullshit when it DOES deign to spawn.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 15, 2010, 16:12
Quote from: Frankosity on January 15, 2010, 14:52
It's not so much the fact that it's a secret so much as that there's so much secret-handshake smuggery about it on this forum between the people who DO know how to pick it up.

It's practically irrelevant anyway considering it's as rare as a virgin in Essex, especially considering you have to have the right traits/name/phase of the moon/whatever esoteric anime bullshit when it DOES deign to spawn.

...Yeah, okay. I'll admit, I had a phase where I was a smug bastard about it. I've cooled down since, although it still shows up sometimes.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ParaSait on January 15, 2010, 16:12
Augh, what silly idea do we get now, a wizard mode? >.<
Wouldn't that potentionally spoil like all things you can discover as a n00b? o.O
For example, the first time I got to dlvl25 I was really excited and even a little scared (as I had no idea what was gonna happen). If there would be a wizard mode, new players are able to know what to expect without even trying. Also, think of reaching special levels and so on.
I really don't wanna be the stubborn negativist here, but no. Bad idea.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 15, 2010, 16:30
Quote from: Mrazerty on January 15, 2010, 16:12
Augh, what silly idea do we get now, a wizard mode? >.<
Wouldn't that potentionally spoil like all things you can discover as a n00b? o.O
For example, the first time I got to dlvl25 I was really excited and even a little scared (as I had no idea what was gonna happen). If there would be a wizard mode, new players are able to know what to expect without even trying. Also, think of reaching special levels and so on.
I really don't wanna be the stubborn negativist here, but no. Bad idea.

Hmm...true, so maybe it can be an unlockable, like the challenge modes.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ParaSait on January 15, 2010, 16:48
Quote from: Madtrixr on January 15, 2010, 16:30
Hmm...true, so maybe it can be an unlockable, like the challenge modes.
Ah. That is something I *do* agree with :)
Should be unlocked when getting a certain rank (such as, the one where the average player usually gets stuck at). Won't debalance the game in any way too! (^^,)
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 15, 2010, 17:04
Quote from: Mrazerty on January 15, 2010, 16:48
Ah. That is something I *do* agree with :)
Should be unlocked when getting a certain rank (such as, the one where the average player usually gets stuck at). Won't debalance the game in any way too! (^^,)

Yeah. it would need some tweaking to see where people usually get stuck at, but if it's not available from the start, then it's not a bad idea.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 16, 2010, 08:31
And the legal AoPc win with 90%+ kills.

Agreed with the unblockable state, but it don't fit into the topic.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Madtrixr on January 17, 2010, 19:45
Quote from: ZZ on January 16, 2010, 08:31
And the legal AoPc win with 90%+ kills.

Agreed with the unblockable state, but it don't fit into the topic.

I don't know about it not fitting into the topic, but at any rate, The wizard mode is a good idea (IMO).

What say you K?
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: action52 on January 17, 2010, 21:09
Here's my idea: we could take a cue from another famous roguelike, Nethack, and have two different "neverending" modes: Explore Mode and Wizard Mode.

Features of Explore mode:

-Unlocked by dying on HMP or lower 10 times.
-When your health drops to 0% or lower, you are asked if you really want to die. If you say "n," your health is restored to 100%.
-Your score is not recorded in the rankings.
-Can be played in ITYTD or HNTR levels.
-No red stairs are generated.
-Items and enemies are generated as normal in levels 1-24.
-Level 25 has no Cyberdemon. Instead there is a weaker boss fight. Maybe an ArchVile and two Barons?
-You cannot do any challenges in explore mode.

Features of Wizard mode:
-Unlocked by defeating the game on HMP (maybe UV?) or better. In other words, you have to be good at the game but not UNGODLY good.
-When your health drops to 0% or lower, you are asked if you really want to die. If you say "n," your health is restored to 100% (same as Explore Mode).
-Your score is not recorded in the rankings (same as Explore Mode).
-Can be played at any difficulty level except Nightmare.
-Pressing "w" (or maybe a function key like F12 would be better) brings up the "wizard mode" menu. In that menu, you can give yourself any item, powerup, or trait. Including uniques. You can also warp to any level of the game, including special levels. You can also turn challenges on and off.
-Invincibility can be toggled on and off. Maybe by typing iddqd?
-You can create any enemy, in any quantity that you want.
-If you beat the Cyberdemon, it would be recorded but with a funny message like "1 soldier defeated the Cyberdemon using trickery."

So what do you think? Maybe it needs some tweaking on the details, but I think this would work very well.
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Angle of Death on January 17, 2010, 22:56
What I think would be better is to add perks for completing challenges (thus encouraging new players to explore them), rather than kimiting existing features. For example, these rewards could be given for a standard win of Angel of Shotgunnery on a given difficulty level (rough outline)

I'm too young to die: N/A (The challenge can not be played in this mode)
Hey, Not Too Rough: Unless playing a restricted game, you start with a shotgun and 20 shells in your inventory.
Hurt Me Plenty: YOu have an inherent level of Reloader* in all subsequent games.
Ultra Violence: The shotgun reward from HNTR is replaced with a combat shotgun.
Nightmare!: You have an inherent Shottyman trait** in all games.

* Reloader becomes a two level trait that unlocks shottyman at level one. Your base reload time is set equal to the standard+reloader1. Essentially, the shotgun build gets one level faster.

** The shottyman trait dissapears from both blocking traits and prerequisutes. The effect of shottyman (auto-reloading shotguns) is available at all times.

This would encourage newer players to explore challeneges beyond "just enough to get that badge, then never again", while giving a nice bonus to more experienced players that have unlocked everything, but can't handle the harder challenges. It would also lead to more varied builds on more advanced players, which is always a good thing. (Completing challenges with inherent trait rewards would allow trait combinations normally impossible.)
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Sylph on January 18, 2010, 12:43
My opinion - Unlockables should be there to make a roguelike *harder*, not easier. A lot of the fun, and just about all of the awe, sense of acheivement, and sense of adventure, is taken away when a player uses a cheatmode. Certainly don't make them unlockable.

A training mode isn't a bad idea - I wouldn't make it an easier difficulty though, I'd make it a set of training courses, with badges for performance.

For example:
Training room 1:
Advancing targets.
Player must destroy approaching targets with his weaponry, and starts with the 'juggler' trait. Targets are monsters from the game, including former humans, sergeants, cacodemons, former commandos, arachnotrons, and barrels. The trick is, of course, realising which monsters you can leave until later, and which monsters must be killed quickly.
Skill learned - how much damage each monster can receive before dying, and which weapons are good against which targets.

Training room 2:
Obstacle course.
A player with only the 'tough as nails' trait must navigate through a level containing many barrels and acid, without a gun. A small handful of monsters make life difficult by shooting at the player.
Skill learned - monster firing trajectories, and areas of effect.

Training room 3:
Traumatic stress training.
Player with 'hellrunner' must complete a normal level without weaponry (pacifism).
Skill learned - how to use running mode, and learns that a level can be completed without killing monsters (important skill for doomrl).

Training room 4:
Cover excersise.
Player starts a 'hell's arena' type level level on 10% health, with a pistol and 'dualgunner' (second pistol can be taken from dead oponent). Must clear the level of it's inhabitants - former humans and demons.
Skill learned - corner shooting.

I'm sure there's plenty more ideas for training rooms. The idea here is that the training actually teaches something that a player might have missed just from playing on 'I'm too young to die', and also introduces the power and nature of some traits.
To make it appealing to veterans, a player could be scored on time, damage taken, percentage of monsters killed, etc, for each training excercise. Thus, getting a 5-star rating from training would be a challenge mode in and of itself.


Disadvantage - obviously, it'd take more work than the other ideas (level design needed etc).
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: ZZ on January 18, 2010, 13:29
And the fully editable level, where you can place enemies, doomguy, walls&barrels will be also cool. Not like a training, but just good idea. I can move it to the RfF subforum as a separate request. Fortress-defend type of level will be good.

Training Room 5:
You start with a DM, and 2 Barons of Hell (maybe Mancubi) around you. You have to kill one of them without gun. A good skill for the situation you run out of ammo (or playing with MGK).
Title: Re: Extensions for the new player
Post by: Frankosity on January 18, 2010, 14:24
I think there's such a thing as making a roguelike too transparant.