Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Toan on March 19, 2009, 02:19
-
Hey guys, i like doomrl but i usually don't get past lvl 15 and my best is lvl 17 on AoMr. Go figure. Anyways, i need to win the game to unlock the next rank, but i keep dying, not too sure why, besides that:
1.The Wall can kill you if you aren't prepared for lotsa Hell Barons and Knights
2.Guys with plasma rifles are a pain to kill.
I think it may be something to do with my Trait order, but i'm not quite sure. Can you guys please post some general build orders for ITYTD normal game? I don't really care if it leans to one particular weapon over another, but i want a general idea of what you guys get.
Thanks in advance
-
My trait order (I am a chaingun player)
EE->SoB->SoB->Sob->EE->CE->CE
After that it doesn't seem to matter, but I choose TaN or Ironman.
-
My trait order (I am a chaingun player)
EE->SoB->SoB->Sob->EE->CE->CE
After that it doesn't seem to matter, but I choose TaN or Ironman.
The 3 traits i seem to use the least are HR, TAN and Ironman. Are they as useful as they're advertised or what? I guess i'm more of an offensive player. Also, what about Int? And maybe triggerhappy? And when is whizkid ever useful besides when you get that advanced BFG or something as uber as that.
-
For AoMr:
SoG->SoG->DG->EE->EE->CE->SoG->CE-> and SoB/TaN/HR (depends on situation) after it.
If you play on ITYTD You may get rid of EE*2 & CE*2 and replace it with Intuition*3.
-
For AoMr:
SoG->SoG->DG->EE->EE->CE->SoG->CE-> and SoB/TaN/HR (depends on situation) after it.
If you play on ITYTD You may get rid of EE*2 & CE*2 and replace it with Intuition*3.
Is CE better that or equal to or lesser than Int? Int takes more levels to be effective (3 for monsters but 1 is enough for knowing if it's good/bad) than CE (1 already give you a massive advantage, right?) but i don't quite see the utility, especially against those annoying Cacodemons.
-
In AoMr?
SoG > SoG > DG > SoG > EE > EE > CE > CE > SoB > SoB > SoB > TaN > TaN > TaN > Fin > Fin > WK > WK > Juggler
if you can manage to get all 19 Character levels.
CE takes preference over Int in AoMr due to sniping.
-
My trait order (I am a chaingun player)
EE->SoB->SoB->Sob->EE->CE->CE
After that it doesn't seem to matter, but I choose TaN or Ironman.
Sorry, I thought you ment "clean" I'm too young to die.
If it's angel of makrsmanship, I get the traits in the same order as player above.
-
Is CE better that or equal to or lesser than Int? Int takes more levels to be effective (3 for monsters but 1 is enough for knowing if it's good/bad) than CE (1 already give you a massive advantage, right?) but i don't quite see the utility, especially against those annoying Cacodemons.
But you need EE*2 in order to open CE. And on easier difficulty levels the accuracy (aka EE) is not that much needed as compared to UV, for example. Plus you will always know what do the levers do, which would increase your survivability - and this will help you finish the game.
I often take EE*2 and CE before last SoG because the accuracy on HMP & UV is horrible (especially for targets on the edge or outside Field of View).
-
Is CE better that or equal to or lesser than Int? Int takes more levels to be effective (3 for monsters but 1 is enough for knowing if it's good/bad) than CE (1 already give you a massive advantage, right?) but i don't quite see the utility, especially against those annoying Cacodemons.
But you need EE*2 in order to open CE. And on easier difficulty levels the accuracy (aka EE) is not that much needed as compared to UV, for example. Plus you will always know what do the levers do, which would increase your survivability - and this will help you finish the game.
I often take EE*2 and CE before last SoG because the accuracy on HMP & UV is horrible (especially for targets on the edge or outside Field of View).
Eagle Eye doesn't do the levers, that's intuition.
-
Well, back when I was trying to get my first win, the game was a lot different, so looking at my old mortems didn't turn out to be useful, but I would suggest maybe looking at builds of wins in the mortem subforum. In general, I would say starting out with EE -> SoB -> SoB -> SoB is a good start. When I play on harder modes, I go for ironman and TaN after that to help keep me alive, but on ITYTD, I would suggest going for Intuition. Also, on ITYTD, you could might not need as much SoB early on. For example, I would say the third level of SoB isn't really needed until you encounter Barons. Early intuition can help you level up more... monster spawning levels are a good way to get extra experience -- before you get too deep. At a certain point they become extremely dangerous.
-
Eagle Eye doesn't do the levers, that's intuition.
I have never said it does. Read carefully ;) .
-
In AoMr?
SoG > SoG > DG > SoG > EE > EE > CE > CE > SoB > SoB > SoB > TaN > TaN > TaN > Fin > Fin > WK > WK > Juggler
if you can manage to get all 19 Character levels.
CE takes preference over Int in AoMr due to sniping.
Juggler? What for?
-
In AoMr?
SoG > SoG > DG > SoG > EE > EE > CE > CE > SoB > SoB > SoB > TaN > TaN > TaN > Fin > Fin > WK > WK > Juggler
if you can manage to get all 19 Character levels.
CE takes preference over Int in AoMr due to sniping.
Juggler? What for?
whizkid? mods are nice and all, but are they really neccessary? same with TAN. hmmm, i don't mind the whizkid so much as juggler....it's not like you'd have a 2 uniques or something, and even if you did, dualgunner means you never have to switch, unless you have like a Trigun and a Berretta
-
TaN increases survivability, so it is useful.
-
Everything after finesse is filler. It's highly unlikely that you'll be reaching CL 17 in an AoMr game.
-
Thanks guys! i finally got my first win on ITYTD! Currently i'm playing a bit of AoLT and wondering how in the world you can win without those extra 10 slots. I'm thinking pistol-->shotgun-->chaingun-->plasma/BFG. not sure about traits though. Maybe EE --> CE or something
EDIT: Whizkid is pretty useful.....12 mods on an Advanced Pistol in AoMr is just plain butt-kicky
-
From personal experience, I won AoLT with a pistol Specialist. I find it's a trait build which is incredibly ammo efficient and by the late-game you can kill most any enemy without having to reload.
My trait path was:
SoG->SoG->DG->SoG->EE->Fin->Fin->Rel->EE
I kept slots for a rocket launcher, one slot of rocket ammo and a large health pack. Once I got through the Wall I dropped the rocket launcher and ammo, and picked up the BFG in the Halls of Carnage, to take care of the Cyberdemon. Luckily, I got a thermonuke, so it wasn't necessary in the end.
Anyway, I'm trying to beat AoI, but I keep dying right in the endgame, one time right at Cybie. I've been using a Finesse/SoB/EE/CE build, which gets me pretty far, but I've been thinking about trying a trait build focused on health and defense. What's the best trait path for a TaN/Badass/Ironman build?
-
For angel of light travel, a pistol game is a pretty good choice -- that was the first way I did it. If you do this, I would still try to get a bfg. Its also possible to go chaingun in angel of light travel. The added damage is nice on harder difficulty levels, but it may be a good idea to not clear out every level in an effort to conserve ammo. Totally switching to plasma is probably impractical. I'd say plasma has the worst power per inventory space.
What's the best trait path for a TaN/Badass/Ironman build?
I'd say you don't want to go pure TaN/Badass/Ironman. As a chaingun/plasma specialist, I'd try to get at least 1 level of eagle-eye and at least 2 levels of SoB. In general, I'd say TaN is more useful in the early game and Ironman is more useful in the late game, but in AoI I'd lean towards Ironman even in the early game because you generally have enough inventory space to lug around quite a bit of extra armor. I'm not ordinarily much of a Badass fan. I would suggest something like this:
EE->SoB->Iro->SoB->Iro->Iro->SoB->TaN->TaN
Keep in mind that trait orders tend to be quite flexible (e.g. you'll get to level 2 on level 2 of the phobos base, so the order of your first two traits doesn't matter after that point).
Also in AoI, I wouldn't try to clear out every level towards the end, especially if you already have a thermonuclear bomb. Though its harder in AoI because of lack of homing phase devices, it is also more important. Being able to carry health packs helps smooth out the availability of health recovery, but in AoI you are completely at the mercy of the RNG. If a level happens to spawn with very little or no health, you will be in big trouble. So, once you have found the stairs, explore as much of the level as you can for health without engaging enemies, then go down, unless there is enough left-over health (that you have already found) that you think clearing the level will be relatively safe.
-
Rapidfire (Non-Nightmare!)
SoB > SoB > EE > SoB > TaN > TaN > TaN > Fin > Fin > Whiz > Whatever
(EE can be moved about. The key is to get it just before the chaingun.)
You're very likely to find 2 good mods for every weapon (If you go to the Armory), so whizkid is recomended just for the 2 mods on regular weapons.
Shotgun (Any difficulty)
HR > HR > RL > RL > SM > HR > Fin 3 or TaN 3
(RL and SM can be moved about. The key is to get it just before the doubleshotty.)
Fin 3 is handy cause it reduces the amount of time you're standing still, but TaN 3 will reduce the damage and only make you 40% more stand-stilly.
Rapidfire (Nightmare!)
SoB > SoB > SoB > TH > TH > TaN > TaN > TaN > Fin > Fin > Whiz (Maybe) > Fin
EE is a waste of your traits, with the amount of damage you spew out (And the ludicrous amount of enemies you'll be firing at), you'll be bound to do more damage without it.
Melee
Bru > HR > HR > HR > Bru > Ber > Bru > TaN 3
OR
Bru > Bru > Ber > HR > HR > HR > Bru > TaN 3
Brute 2 gives you nothing, so if you think you don't need berserker, go ahead and get HR 3 first.
You WILL need berserker to finish the game, but not immediately.
-
Shotgun (Any difficulty)
HR > HR > RL > RL > SM > HR > Fin 3 or TaN 3
And die around 20-22 lvl in combat with large pack of Arachnotrons/Barons of Hell in open ground?
-
Barons of Hell have atrocious aim, I'd be surprised if I got hit more than once for each BoH.
Arachnotrons have slightly better aim (And fire more projectiles, so you're bound to get hit eventually), but they have a horrible melee attack, which you can use to your advantage.
If there ever was so many high-level units that 4-5 shotgun blasts didn't suffice (Such events are rare, and usually involve Arch-Viles and Revenants rather than Arachs and BoHs), I'd probably just use the BFG. It's not like I'm using any cells on a plasma rifle, so using 80 cells in regular combat isn't as wasteful as it sounds, keeping in mind that if you play a shotgun game you need 0 cells to defeat the cyberdemon.
-
4-5 shotgun blasts didn't suffice
8-10 for combat shotgun, 4-5 only for double, but getting close to 3-5 BoH or Arachnotrons in UV is suicide. BFG ... not good ... it destroy all usefull things in half of level. I think this build need some damage traits, for survival on later levels with shotgun only.
-
4-5 shotgun blasts didn't suffice
8-10 for combat shotgun, 4-5 only for double, but getting close to 3-5 BoH or Arachnotrons in UV is suicide. BFG ... not good ... it destroy all usefull things in half of level. I think this build need some damage traits, for survival on later levels with shotgun only.
Keep in mind that even while wearing blue armor, a HR 3 shottyman will be running at double pace and have a 90-95% dodge chance while strafing, so approaching them is absolutely no problem.
As for killing them, that depends on the amount of arachnotrons, really. I've cleared 15-20 Hell Knights/BoHs with reasonably low cover (Read as: The Wall) using only a double shotgun and a large medpack. The arachnotrons are the annoying bit, cause unless you time your shots well you'll take 40% damage from every arachnotron while you stand still and shoot.
Also why would I care about destroying stuff at level 20? You should have everything you need to kill the cyberdemon by then, so you either kill everything through any means necessary (If you want a YAAM) or bolt for the stairs (If you don't want a YAAM). It's not like BoHs, revenants and viles drop anything good anyway.
-
a HR 3 shottyman will be running at double pace and have a 90-95% dodge chance while strafing, so approaching them is absolutely no problem.
In normal difficulty only ... I trying complete AoB in UV(with 3 HR) and don`t see 90% dodge ... half of shots hit you character.
-
Really? Half? I find that you can dodge most shots even on nightmare, as long as you keep strafing.
-
Maybe it`s only my luck? or some specific dodge in AoB games ... and HR 3 = +30% dodge then moving ... pressing TAB gives you another 60%?
P.S. I tried this build in UV(Ao100). IN lvl 6 I almost killed by single BoH in two enemy shots. Running, dodging + HR2. He never missed at 3 range.
-
The numbers are only part of it. I'd honestly say not quite half. Knowing HOW to strafe is the greater part.
-
In know how to strafe ... and it`s work normal in normal difficulty, as Thomas say "...a 90-95% dodge chance". But in UV monsters has greatly increased accuracy, and only one type of fighting can negate this - shoot first and shoot fast.
-
Sounds like you have all the answers already.
-
The numbers are only part of it. I'd honestly say not quite half. Knowing HOW to strafe is the greater part.
Well, how do you strafe? or, how do YOU strafe? I haven't seen anything about this in the rest of the forums and it only gets mentioned once or twice. Is it something to do with diagonals?
-
Strafing is mentioned briefly in the manual under "Getting Started". It's simply moving in a way that would theoretically dodge the shot if you were playing in realtime.
eg.
..........
h****.@...
.....**@*X
Moving from the lower @ to the higher @ gives you a strafe bonus to dodging.
The bonus is pretty big, especially when dodging "magical" projectiles like fireballs or acid-balls.
-
Really?? Heh, I didn't know that. Should try it sometime... It could spare me lots of frustrations =)
-
Strafing is mentioned briefly in the manual under "Getting Started". It's simply moving in a way that would theoretically dodge the shot if you were playing in realtime.
eg.
..........
h****.@...
.....**@*X
Moving from the lower @ to the higher @ gives you a strafe bonus to dodging.
The bonus is pretty big, especially when dodging "magical" projectiles like fireballs or acid-balls.
Hmm, thanks, but another question, how do you use this "strafing" effectively? It's not like you can see the fire path of so many enemies and even so, wouldn't they be firing a different path each time? Please correct me if i'm wrong.
-
Well, they fire at a straight line to you. So, move not that straight direction towards them.
... Which brings up the question of how do you strafe against diagonal enemies?
-
Easy.
h...........
.*..........
..*.........
...*@.......
....@.......
.....X......
h...........
.*..........
..*.@.......
...*@.......
.....*......
......X.....
h*..........
..**@.......
....@*......
......**....
........**..
..........*X
h**.@.......
...*@*......
......***...
.........**X
............
............
Alternating between horizontal and vertical is too risky, in figures 2 and 4 it'd reult in you running in to the bullet anyway.
As for multiple enemies, it takes at the very least 4 enemies to give you 0 strafing options, and they'd need to be well spread out. This rarely happens unless you're playing on UV or N!.
...h..h..h...
....*.*.*....
.....***.....
h*****@*****X
.....***.....
....*.*.*....
...X..X..X...
-
The numbers are only part of it. I'd honestly say not quite half. Knowing HOW to strafe is the greater part.
Well, how do you strafe? or, how do YOU strafe? I haven't seen anything about this in the rest of the forums and it only gets mentioned once or twice. Is it something to do with diagonals?
Just find a dance partner one of these times when you can afford to dink around and take a few bullets. play cat and mouse with him for a while.
-
Hmm, so...If a bullet would hit you, but you move in a direction not of it's fire path, ie. diagonal, then that's strafing?
-
Yup. I'm about to post a video in the videos thread right now showing a decent shotgun game. I die at level 18 to a bad terrain damage roll (And I suppose the arch vile I was hiding from helped too) but it's still reasonably good.
-
I just finished AoMr on HNTR, my second ever win, but getting to level 15 on AoB is harder...Should i just run past the levels or something? And is there a build for running past everything? HRx3, TAN?
EDIT:I've just gotten to level 17 AoB, HNTR
HR->HR->HR->TAN->TAN
but i would still like to know a running past stuff build, for things like AoRA
-
Yeah, just HR and TaN. If you're doing pacifist you'll also get enough traits for Ironman and Badass.
-
hmm...what type of build would you use for AoI? Your standard weapons build (chaingun, anyone?) or one that captilizes on the health restrictions (Iro + Badass)?
EDIT: For anyone who wants to see how badly i play and even worse on AoI because i like my med-packs thankyouverymuch, there's a vid in the Chaosforge Dosrecorder Vids section.
-
For AoI and AoM - 2XCateye first, then standart build. Iro + Badass ... again, as I think, in UV difficulty killing enemies before they start shooting is best strategy.
-
For AoI and AoM - 2XCateye first, then standart build. Iro + Badass ... again, as I think, in UV difficulty killing enemies before they start shooting is best strategy.
Angel of Masochism or Marksmanship?
To get to Cateye (2), that's at least level 4....you get 2 vision and +4 accuracy, but at that level, you could have EE(2) and SOB(2), +2 damage for a chaingun boosts your average dmg from (1d5 = 3, 3x5 = 15 per volley) 15 to (1d7 = 4, 4x5 = 20) 20, a boost of 5 damage.
Correct me if i'm wrong, i just don't value Cateye that much. At least, not yet.
-
1) AoM = Masochism.
2) SoB is actually much better than you thought.
Kinda.
It doesn't change the damage dice, it adds a modifier to it, making it 1d5+SoB level.
3) The point of Cateye is killing things before they kill you. All the extra damage in the world doesn't help you if you die.
-
1) AoM = Masochism.
2) SoB is actually much better than you thought.
Kinda.
It doesn't change the damage dice, it adds a modifier to it, making it 1d5+SoB level.
3) The point of Cateye is killing things before they kill you. All the extra damage in the world doesn't help you if you die.
Well, i'm not quite sure, i guess i'd have to play a game where i rush to CE first then get SOB or something. But, isn't INT (3) better? Sure, you don't know what monsters are there, but who cares?
That aside, so SOB (3) means from 1d5x5 = 3x5 = 15
it becomes (1d5+3) x 5? so... (3+3) x 5 = 30
Am i right?
-
Angel of Impatience: Straight melee build. The ability to dominate souls with your fists AND the abilty to shoot them lots?=WIN. It's AoB, only WAY easier. I hope I haven't irritated people by posting so plainly :P
-
The "Melee build only not" is a good one as long as you're skilled enough to do a traitless run. If you can beat vanilla UV but not AoI HNTR then I'd fully back Visalos's suggestion.
-
In other words, if you suck. Thanks, Thomas, I'm gonna go cry over here :_(
-
So...just your generic AoB build, but still use weapons? huh...well...i'd have never of thought of that...I can beat Vanilla HNTR, just about to try and see if i can beat HMP Vanilla
-
hmm...what type of build would you use for AoI? Your standard weapons build (chaingun, anyone?) or one that captilizes on the health restrictions (Iro + Badass)?
EDIT: For anyone who wants to see how badly i play and even worse on AoI because i like my med-packs thankyouverymuch, there's a vid in the Chaosforge Dosrecorder Vids section.
I managed to beat it a couple weeks ago with this build:
EE->EE->Int->Int->Int->SoB->SoB->SoB->EE->
Basically I used the extra ammo space you get for firing wildly into the murk, although that became unneccessary once I got Int 3, then I just focused on raising my damage with my chaingun/plasma rifle and killing things before they got within sight range of me. For the Cyberdemon, I was lucky enough to find a thermonuke, but Int 3 would probably be fine for hitting it from a distance with rockets or BFG shots.
-
Just my opinions on a few of the traits:
Tough as Nails - In DoomRL damage bonus > defense but there is a 'hidden' effect on this talent that's makes it extra tasty: It makes armor last longer. I usually find that 1 point in TaN is enough to keep me equipped in decent armor. If you're the kind of player that rarely gets hit and have a backpack full of armor there are better traits.
Eagle Eye - Yes EE is awesome but the only weapon that NEEDS EEx3 is the Plasma Gun (and Berettax6). EEx2 is enough for everything else unless you want high accuracy WHILE running.
Intuition x3 - It takes some fun out of the game.
As for builds, i'm a plasma gun lover (there are a lot of cells on N!)so:
SoB -> EE -> SoB -> EE -> (cateye or intuition) -> SoB -> defense from now on
-
Eagle Eye - Yes EE is awesome but the only weapon that NEEDS EEx3 is the Plasma Gun (and Berettax6). EEx2 is enough for everything else unless you want high accuracy WHILE running.
Minigun.