Chaosforge Forum

General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Blade on July 13, 2007, 13:51

Title: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Blade on July 13, 2007, 13:51
After a year of work Glowie have released new version of Frozen Depth (http://koti.mbnet.fi/frozend/) roguelike. It was second roguelike that i have played(right after DooMRL)). I like this game because it have really "cool" atmosphere, and very interesting gameplay system. I know that it's only mine opinion, but i like to listen to The Cure when playing it, this music fits this game.))
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 14, 2007, 11:24
I just played through it.  Got quite far before some rather evil enemy buried me in stuffed animals (not really, but sorta).  I like its straightforwardness.  Minimal keypresses to memorize, but still a good number of dungeon features.

The site seems to be down at the moment; was going to ask the designer a few questions...

I will say I probably would behead the sages if I could.  They're a bit hypercapitalist for my taste :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Blade on July 14, 2007, 13:01
One more thing: this game was won without savescumming only 1 time ever.)) I have won it only WITH savescumming just to see, what will be in the end. Very funny thing happens when you kill final boss on dlvl 50.))

I'm very unlucky with sages. I sometimes travel 10-20 levels without finding any sage or Goddess shrine. Anyway, imho they are not sages, no wise man will be standing still and buying used weapons and armors deep in the frozen caves.))
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 14, 2007, 16:14
OK, thank you for mentioning that with sages.  The first, like, three times I played, I kept running into sages early on.  One time twice in three levels, and so on my next game I gleefully stored a ton of goods waiting to unload them on the sage I'd see...  and I never saw one..  I'm like, I don't know how many levels down and I haven't seen one yet.

They may yet be sages, they seem unhindered by cold (or heat or monsters).  Maybe they've achieved enlightment, but the cost is that they have to sit around, torturing adventurers with high prices.

And yes, after dying too often, I've decided to savescum :)  The only time I don't like to savescum is in the not-technically-roguelike Dwarf Fortress, since it still sorta contributes to the world when you die, and Doom, just because I'm hardheaded.  Any roguelike that will have your old, dead characters somehow affect the world later always gets a plus in my book (like the old nethack, if I recall correctly).

Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 15, 2007, 01:51
Quote from: Blade
I like this game because it have really "cool" atmosphere, and very interesting gameplay system.

I just did a couple of test runs and really enjoyed it. The cold setting is done very nicely, perhaps with the exception of some monsters that don't really fit the atmosphere. I'd prefer to see only cold-themed monsters in this setting.

I was impressed by the equipment system. You can wear armour for defense as well as clothing to keep you warm, which adds a credible dimension to inventory management. Also, the equipment screen will warn you if there is an item in the inventory for an equipment slot, by marking the slot with an asterisk. Switching items in slots is easy and straightforward. Having a single 'use' item command in stead of 'eat', 'read', 'quaff', 'zap' etc. makes sense, although scrolling through the entire inventory every time is a bit of a hassle.

Eating food just to keep warm seems kind of artificial, but it works. I'm not a big fan of satiation in roguelikes anyway.

Learning new skills seems to require quite a bit of experience. I haven't had the opportunity to learn a single skill in any test run so far.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I will say I probably would behead the sages if I could.  They're a bit hypercapitalist for my taste :)

After playing a dwarf fighter a couple of levels, bashing monsters with a cursed bow stuck to his hands, not being able to afford an uncursing spell is pretty frustrating. That sage was so lucky my wand of frostbolt ran out of charges. :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 15, 2007, 06:51
You had the cursed bow thing too?  It was actually a cursed bow incident that lead me to scumming!  I was a human warrior, kicking butt, then I tried out my fancy new bow.  Thing for me was, I never saw a sage.  I throwing every throwable weapon, and expending my few arrows, then zapping things with wands, often teleporting myself away when I got surrounded.  Worked, as far as tactics goes, until attrition killed me.

I agree about the monsters, although I wouldn't mind the fire monsters as things that generate their own heat and thus are more able to survive cold climate.  I just get the usual nethack feeling: "why are all these cute little animals zombying toward me?"

Like you, Rabiat, I'm digging the single use command instead of dealing with all those context-specific verbs, and the clothing dimension to keeping warm.  I wish there was a way to combine the equipment screen, so sorting through the best stuff while getting rid of excess baggage didn't take hopping between the two screens to do it.

Skills are nice once you figure them out.  At first I felt that it was a bit of a hassle to activate the non-active skills every time but I'm used to it now and it's helped in tight situations.  Actually, doesn't every character start with a single skill already?  That'll let you practice using them.

If the sage's prices were a bit lower, I wouldn't mind so much that they went up.

I was going to have a productive day, but now I think I'll play a few more levels of this game...
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Blade on July 15, 2007, 08:30
I agree about the monsters, although I wouldn't mind the fire monsters as things that generate their own heat and thus are more able to survive cold climate.  I just get the usual nethack feeling: "why are all these cute little animals zombying toward me?"

On the official site is written that "only two elements survive in the depths: it's the home of the cold creatures and the extremely hot creatures can keep themselves alive there" so it explains a little, why they are there.))

Skills are nice once you figure them out.  At first I felt that it was a bit of a hassle to activate the non-active skills every time but I'm used to it now and it's helped in tight situations.  Actually, doesn't every character start with a single skill already?  That'll let you practice using them.

For each starting training that you can choose there are one starting skill. In the manual some tips are written, so it can be quite useful to read it.))
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 16, 2007, 01:03
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Like you, Rabiat, I'm digging the single use command instead of dealing with all those context-specific verbs, and the clothing dimension to keeping warm.  I wish there was a way to combine the equipment screen, so sorting through the best stuff while getting rid of excess baggage didn't take hopping between the two screens to do it.

One thing I particularly liked about the equipment screen (and forgot to mention) is that it will mark slots with an asterisk not only if a suitable item is available, but also if there is a better item for that slot in your inventory. Being a noob at the game I was carrying around lots of extra clothing in my inventory, which I don't think is necessary. I guess I'll try the usual 'inventory purge' I use in many roguelikes: drop everything except your equipment, then pick up the useful stuff.

Quote
Skills are nice once you figure them out.  At first I felt that it was a bit of a hassle to activate the non-active skills every time but I'm used to it now and it's helped in tight situations.  Actually, doesn't every character start with a single skill already?  That'll let you practice using them.

I understand the way skills work, but I was surprised how much experience it takes to finally learn a new one after the initial skill. My last character finally reached the point where his stats meet the minimum requirements for more than half of the skills listed (which happened fairly quickly). I guess I expected to see fewer skills becoming available more regularly, but I can appreciate the initial threshold before your character gains a second skill.

Edit: also, I got the hang of tactics, or fighting styles. I haven't toyed around with it enough to see a significant advantage for every tactic, but by now I escaped death twice with 1HP left by fleeing in defensive mode. :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 16, 2007, 03:12
Yeah, the asterisk thing is nice, although sometimes it's a bit misleading.  If there's a higher class of item, but you have a blessed item of a lower class, sometimes the blessed item has the same statistics.  So, while the class of the item gets it the asterisk, you really don't need to change (and risk getting cursed).

Can you pick things up piecemeal when they're in a ground stack?  I haven't figured out how yet.

My skill availability ups slowly.  I guess because I tend to concentrate on a few stats instead of spreading it out, so I get the stereotypical skills for my class instead of having them all increase. 

I keep forgetting about the tactics, but they do make a difference when I do use them.  Glad they've been so effective for you.  I'll have to remember to use them when things look bad.  I did use it once on the second boss to escape a big cloud of enemies, and it worked to a point...
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 16, 2007, 12:55
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Can you pick things up piecemeal when they're in a ground stack?  I haven't figured out how yet.

Move over the item stack, press comma, then select the items you want to pick up using the space bar, and press z. I don't think it's possible to pick up e.g. 1 out of a stack of 3 identical items, though.

Note there's a limit of 20 different items on the same tile, stackable items of the same type not included. You'll probably need more than one tile to drop your entire inventory.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
My skill availability ups slowly.  I guess because I tend to concentrate on a few stats instead of spreading it out, so I get the stereotypical skills for my class instead of having them all increase.

That must be the difference. I tend to concentrate on evenly distributed stats, especially when I'm new at a game and haven't tried different classes yet.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 17, 2007, 04:06
Thanks for the positive comments guys. It has been interesting to watch as new players discuss about various aspects of the game. I'll comment a few things here and there, feel free to ask anything if you have a question.

I know that it's only mine opinion, but i like to listen to The Cure when playing it, this music fits this game.))

I like to listen to power metal while playtesting it.

One more thing: this game was won without savescumming only 1 time ever.)) I have won it only WITH savescumming just to see, what will be in the end. Very funny thing happens when you kill final boss on dlvl 50.))

I'm very unlucky with sages. I sometimes travel 10-20 levels without finding any sage or Goddess shrine. Anyway, imho they are not sages, no wise man will be standing still and buying used weapons and armors deep in the frozen caves.))

Save scumming is evil, Blade! Just don't spoil the ending.

About the sages, many of you seem to complain either about the rarity or the costs. I can assure you that the costs are rather balanced, you just have to sell all useless items and spend the money wisely. It's true that you don't always find a sage in levels 1-10, but if you don't, you usually find an altar, which is enough to keep you alive till you find a sage in 10-20. I won't comment a lot on the "capitalist" attitude of sages, I'll just say that I didn't come up with a better name and that gameplay goes over realism. ;)

I just did a couple of test runs and really enjoyed it. The cold setting is done very nicely, perhaps with the exception of some monsters that don't really fit the atmosphere. I'd prefer to see only cold-themed monsters in this setting.

I would prefer only cold-themed monsters, heat-themed monsters and those that can survive there with, for example, clothing, but it's rather difficult to create that many different, but interesting monsters and try to get them diverse enough without breaking the theme of the monster. I've been changing the monster names and special skills in every version so far, trying to get a bit better atmosphere every time, but this change requires a lot of time.

Learning new skills seems to require quite a bit of experience. I haven't had the opportunity to learn a single skill in any test run so far.

Learning skills quickly requires planning. If you check the desired skill's requirements before starting the game, you can get it very quickly, though that means you have to pick a bit less useful stats as well.

After playing a dwarf fighter a couple of levels, bashing monsters with a cursed bow stuck to his hands, not being able to afford an uncursing spell is pretty frustrating. That sage was so lucky my wand of frostbolt ran out of charges. :)

Dwarven fighters don't use bows. ;)

You had the cursed bow thing too?  It was actually a cursed bow incident that lead me to scumming!

Be strong and don't scum, that way you'll learn faster how to stay alive in the depths.

Being a noob at the game I was carrying around lots of extra clothing in my inventory, which I don't think is necessary.

Carrying extra equipment is far from useless, if your current equipment breaks and you don't have anything to replace it, you're in trouble deeper in the game. Also, you should sell all extra stuff to get as much money as possible.

Yeah, the asterisk thing is nice, although sometimes it's a bit misleading.  If there's a higher class of item, but you have a blessed item of a lower class, sometimes the blessed item has the same statistics.  So, while the class of the item gets it the asterisk, you really don't need to change (and risk getting cursed).

Can you pick things up piecemeal when they're in a ground stack?  I haven't figured out how yet.

Yeah, the asterisk thing indeed doesn't take into account the B/C/U statuses of the items, so you may want to use blessed items a bit longer than you normally would.

You can't pick up only 1 item from a stack, but you can drop them one by one.


Thanks for playing and commenting guys! I appreciate all comments. And thank you Blade for creating this thread. ;)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 17, 2007, 05:04
Hey, Glowie. Great job at the game. And thanks for the gameplay advice; I'll try and put it to good use. :)

Quote
About the sages, many of you seem to complain either about the rarity or the costs. (...) I won't comment a lot on the "capitalist" attitude of sages, I'll just say that I didn't come up with a better name and that gameplay goes over realism. ;)

I don't think there's a problem with their rarity; sages shouldn't occur too frequently. But I must admit I expected a somewhat more samaritan attitude from a sage. ;) Their behaviour and function looks more like that of a merchant.

Quote
I would prefer only cold-themed monsters, heat-themed monsters and those that can survive there with, for example, clothing, but it's rather difficult to create that many different, but interesting monsters and try to get them diverse enough without breaking the theme of the monster. I've been changing the monster names and special skills in every version so far, trying to get a bit better atmosphere every time, but this change requires a lot of time.

After Blade pointed out the explanation on the FD web site, I understand your considerations. There's still some monsters that bug me though. The walking bomb for example seems out of place.

Quote
Dwarven fighters don't use bows. ;)

Picking up a cursed one served me right, then. :) Anyway, it was a nice exercise. The char managed to survive long enough to lift the curse, and ended up getting blasted by a &.

Since you're here: I noticed something strange, which might or might not be a bug. I was fighting a snow(?) crocodile, and was immobilized by its attack. After I killed it, I remained immobilized for some 10-15 turns. I expected to be released from its grip as soon as I killed it. Is this supposed to happen?
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 17, 2007, 05:35
You can imagine a walking bomb as not literally a walking bomb, but like a spherical, fat little grinning creature with fiery oils in its belly that it needs to keep warm in the depths.  Usually other predators stay away from it because of its foul odor and tendency to explode, (and it tastes bad even if you do survive the blast), but the adventurer doesn't have the luxury of ignoring it.  When you do kill it, its body ruptures, spreading the fiery oil in a burning burst around it.

This is the image I sorta have in mind (after coming up with the idea above):

http://www.dslextreme.com/users/wlee/olsz/eppain.jpg

@ - sage says (be wise, stock up on arrows while you can, just in case you need to pop a bomb at a distance!  Arrows on sale now!)

As far as the crocodile:

Even if it's dead, maybe its mouth is still around your leg.  It has a death grip on you and you have to pry its mouth open before you can get away.

I can come up with other explanations, although I think I could just give you alternate names and such for some of the monsters.  I mean, there's intrinsic humor in being chomped on by angry caribou, but I think your game could have its own, unique creatures too, with a little flavor text about them.  Just ask me in a private message if you want a hand with any of that.

Is it possible to throw potions?
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 17, 2007, 14:25
But I must admit I expected a somewhat more samaritan attitude from a sage. ;)

Hey, it's not easy to make a living when you're immobilized deep in a frozen cave complex. ;)

Since you're here: I noticed something strange, which might or might not be a bug. I was fighting a snow(?) crocodile, and was immobilized by its attack. After I killed it, I remained immobilized for some 10-15 turns. I expected to be released from its grip as soon as I killed it. Is this supposed to happen?

It is supposed to happen, and DisaffectedBeta's explanation is exactly what I was thinking while creating it. Though the more technical explanation is that I don't know whether a monster or an event immobilized the player, so I can't remove the ailment after the monster is killed. Of course I could do this, but I was too lazy since I was able to make an explanation for the current way and I had more important things to improve.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Is it possible to throw potions?

There is one potion that is throwable (you throw it by using it), but you have to identify it first, otherwise the poor character tries to drink the potion.

And about those descriptions. I thought about this when I started creating the monsters, but in the end I decided that it takes too long to write a description for 150 monsters. The descriptions would of course increase atmosphere and explain some of the special skills a bit better. Also descriptions would allow stranger names for monsters... But for now I think I'll just rename monsters when I can. Though I loved your description of the walking bomb. :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 19, 2007, 07:48
I think your simple use mechanic has a lot of potential.  Since you just came out with your newest version I doubt you want to just dive back in and start creating new content, but the fact that an item's single-use changes means you can do that with other things, like a wand that turns out to be a peppery piece of beef jerky or something :)

Sorry.

One thing you could do with potions is just have them act like wands, that way if you're afraid of drinking them you can throw them, which means you may accidentally benefit the monster you're throwing it at, but it might also encourage the introduction of more harmful potions.

Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 22, 2007, 03:16
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
You can imagine a walking bomb as not literally a walking bomb, but like a spherical, fat little grinning creature (...)

Thanks for the vivid description. Now I must resist the urge to prick those meatballs with a trident to see if they're done. :)

Seriously though, I never liked animated objects, such as animated swords, rolling boulders or dust clouds, in any Roguelike (golems are the exception). Somehow they're just too artificial, and not as gratifying to slice. Of course it's a matter of taste, but I always disliked the Hall of Blades in Crawl for example.

On the other hand, finally beating a 'tough dust cloud' after fleeing upstairs and restoring health four or five times did feel like an achievement. :) These monsters with extra toughness, speed or experience modifiers are nasty.

Quote from: Glowie
It is supposed to happen, and DisaffectedBeta's explanation is exactly what I was thinking while creating it.

His explanation is what came to mind when it happened. That was the only 'strange' behaviour I could think of. On the whole I think the game behaves very well, and I haven't seen any obvious bugs (except maybe some minor grammar issues such as missing articles and singular/plural mismatches).*

Quote
And about those descriptions. I thought about this when I started creating the monsters, but in the end I decided that it takes too long to write a description for 150 monsters.

I think you're right. Most monsters have expected behaviour, and if they don't, you'll remember after a few encounters. If you're going to add descriptions at all, I'd very much like to see weapon descriptions. At times it's hard to guess a weapon's class, or its stats. I mostly just go by the inventory list order, or the equipment asterisk. Also I've noticed that there are several weapon skills, but I haven't found a list of those. Could you give a short explanation on this, or would that be spoiling?

Edit: I just had a very successful run with another dwarf fighter cut short by a wraith. This thing punched me so hard that my health dropped from around 40 to -98 in a single hit! Not fair! :(

* Come to think of it, there's two more things. You can pick up small bombs after throwing them. I expected them to explode and disappear, even if this is the standard behaviour for thrown weapons. Also, I found a Wand of Greater Identification which didn't work all the time, even though it had charges left. It just refused to ID one of my unidentified weapons, but allowed me to select another item to identify. I have no idea why this happened.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 22, 2007, 05:32
Rabiat, did it ever let you identify a weapon?  I thought the wand of ID was just for potions or wands.  That was the impression I got, at least.  I wanted to use it to see if something was cursed, but it never let me select them.  Perhaps another item is in order for such an ID.

I never got far enough to see the dust cloud.  They sound like a pain.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 22, 2007, 05:50
Seriously though, I never liked animated objects, such as animated swords, rolling boulders or dust clouds, in any Roguelike (golems are the exception). Somehow they're just too artificial, and not as gratifying to slice. Of course it's a matter of taste, but I always disliked the Hall of Blades in Crawl for example.

On the other hand, finally beating a 'tough dust cloud' after fleeing upstairs and restoring health four or five times did feel like an achievement. :) These monsters with extra toughness, speed or experience modifiers are nasty.

Strange, I've never had problems with artificial monsters, if it bleeds, kill it! (And all monsters in FD bleed, even the metallic ones. Odd, eh?). Those superior monsters are meant to be very hard later on. It's sometimes wiser to flee from them and continue to the next floor if you aren't sure if you can beat them.

Quote from: Glowie
It is supposed to happen, and DisaffectedBeta's explanation is exactly what I was thinking while creating it.

His explanation is what came to mind when it happened. That was the only 'strange' behaviour I could think of. On the whole I think the game behaves very well, and I haven't seen any obvious bugs (except maybe some minor grammar issues such as missing articles and singular/plural mismatches).*

Yeah I know there are those missing articles and singular/plural mismatches, but I found it useless to add a lot of code to detect whether an item or a monster starts with a vowel or a consonant. It doesn't make the messages incomprehensible. Unfortunately there are a few bugs, and you just found one aswell. I'm planning to quietly release a new .exe, which fixes a few annoying or nearly critical bugs. The next version isn't coming out any time soon, so I don't want a flawed version to be the newest one.


At times it's hard to guess a weapon's class, or its stats. I mostly just go by the inventory list order, or the equipment asterisk. Also I've noticed that there are several weapon skills, but I haven't found a list of those. Could you give a short explanation on this, or would that be spoiling?

Usually the weapon stats are pretty straightforward. A crude bronze weapon is better than a copper weapon, but worse than a non-crude bronze weapon. Sometimes blessed crude weapons are better than uncursed non-crude weapon though. Unfortunately you just have to check whether a weapon is 1 handed or 2 handed by unequipping the previous weapon and looking at the available weapons list. By the way, the asterisk only appears if there's a better item of same weapon class. For example, if you find a bronze 2 handed weapon, and you're wielding a copper 1 handed weapon, the asterisk doesn't appear. But if you find a 1 handed bronze weapon, it appears.

Uhm, the weapon skills shouldn't be mysterious, it just means how well you can handle a certain weapon type. Press '@' to see your character's stats, including the weapon skills. For example, twohanded weapon skill increases occasionally when you use two-handed weapons, and it increases the damage and chance to hit slightly with those 2H weapons. Did I understand your question correctly?

Edit: I just had a very successful run with another dwarf fighter cut short by a wraith. This thing punched me so hard that my health dropped from around 40 to -98 in a single hit! Not fair! :(

* Come to think of it, there's two more things. You can pick up small bombs after throwing them. I expected them to explode and disappear, even if this is the standard behaviour for thrown weapons. Also, I found a Wand of Greater Identification which didn't work all the time, even though it had charges left. It just refused to ID one of my unidentified weapons, but allowed me to select another item to identify. I have no idea why this happened.

Holy cr*p! I'm sorry about that Wraith death, that was a bug. For some reason I've mixed the Wraith's minimum damage and health, which means that it's damn weak, but insanely deadly. I'll fix this in the silent update I mentioned. I'll add a news message on FD's site when the update is uploaded. Getting to floor ~40 is very good playing though!

Haha, I never thought of that when I added the small bomb's name. I'll change it, it really doesn't make sense. Who would throw bombs that don't explode? :)

Wand of Greater Identification doesn't identify weapons. It identifies accessories, other wands and potions. You can use it on already identified weapons that have a prefix to learn more about the prefix though.

And I replied to DisaffectedBeta's post in a private message. (Lazy me).

Thanks for the feedback Rabiat!
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 22, 2007, 05:52
Rabiat, did it ever let you identify a weapon?  I thought the wand of ID was just for potions or wands.  That was the impression I got, at least.  I wanted to use it to see if something was cursed, but it never let me select them.  Perhaps another item is in order for such an ID.

I never got far enough to see the dust cloud.  They sound like a pain.

Great, you managed to post while I was writing a reply to Rabiat. Anyway, there IS a wand that identifies B/C/U statuses of weapons, pieces of armour and clothing.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: BDR on July 22, 2007, 10:42
I just wanted to say that as a fan of IVAN, a game where dual-wielding in the long run beats wielding a single weapon and (debatably) beats two-handers, that I find it disappointing that it seems like you can never hit twice in a row while wielding two weapons; you can miss twice in a row, you can miss first and hit second, and you can score a hit on your first try, but you'll never get two hits.  This is bad because it really, really weakens dual-wielding.  Maybe that's the point, and the only reason you'd ever dual-wield is because of the x% increase in chance to hit, but what's the point when as a human warrior I start with better 2H skill anyway?  But I'm hoping this is just an oversight. ;)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 22, 2007, 12:21
I just wanted to say that as a fan of IVAN, a game where dual-wielding in the long run beats wielding a single weapon and (debatably) beats two-handers, that I find it disappointing that it seems like you can never hit twice in a row while wielding two weapons; you can miss twice in a row, you can miss first and hit second, and you can score a hit on your first try, but you'll never get two hits.  This is bad because it really, really weakens dual-wielding.  Maybe that's the point, and the only reason you'd ever dual-wield is because of the x% increase in chance to hit, but what's the point when as a human warrior I start with better 2H skill anyway?  But I'm hoping this is just an oversight. ;)

Congratulations, you're the third person to notice this bug. If you read my previous reply to Rabiat, you know about the silent fix I'm going to make, and this bug will be fixed then. I play the game quite fast and don't bother reading the messages, so this bug managed to get in the release. Thanks for posting this, though. You might have been the first one to report it, you never know. :)

And about IVAN and its dual wielding. I don't really know anything about IVAN, but I think dual wielding, two-handed weapons and 1 handed + shield should all be viable options.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 22, 2007, 15:05
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Rabiat, did it ever let you identify a weapon?  I thought the wand of ID was just for potions or wands.  That was the impression I got, at least.  I wanted to use it to see if something was cursed, but it never let me select them.  Perhaps another item is in order for such an ID.

Quote from: Glowie
Wand of Greater Identification doesn't identify weapons. It identifies accessories, other wands and potions. You can use it on already identified weapons that have a prefix to learn more about the prefix though.

This explains things. The first time I used the Wand of Greater ID on a strange-looking weapon (a crude mithril scythe) it happened to be a 'cold draining' type weapon. So I was under the impression that the wand could be used to identify any weapon. Apparently this was an exception to the rule, since I couldn't use the wand afterwards to ID weapons at all, but it still had charges left to ID potions.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I never got far enough to see the dust cloud.  They sound like a pain.

They're not that dangerous, but mostly just tough. And confusing. I destroyed a fair number of them wearing an Amulet of the Clear Mind, which makes you almost immune to confusion. It took me ages to get rid of a "tough dust cloud", because its insane toughness was multiplied by, well, a lot more toughness. ;)

Quote from: Glowie
Those superior monsters are meant to be very hard later on. It's sometimes wiser to flee from them and continue to the next floor if you aren't sure if you can beat them.

I like these superior monsters. I've handled a few of them with a berserker/coward approach. Activate Fighter's Strength and aggressive tactics, zap a Wand of Blood if you have one, hit that thing like a freight train, and as soon as your health drops to dangerous levels, switch to defensive and run like hell to get upstairs. :)

Quote from: Glowie
Uhm, the weapon skills shouldn't be mysterious, it just means how well you can handle a certain weapon type. Press '@' to see your character's stats, including the weapon skills. (...) Did I understand your question correctly?

I can't believe that all this time I completely overlooked the weapon skills list in the @ screen. :$ Thanks for pointing it out to me, and for the explanation on weapon types and the asterisk.

Quote from: Glowie
Holy cr*p! I'm sorry about that Wraith death, that was a bug. For some reason I've mixed the Wraith's minimum damage and health, which means that it's damn weak, but insanely deadly. I'll fix this in the silent update I mentioned. I'll add a news message on FD's site when the update is uploaded. Getting to floor ~40 is very good playing though!

Heheh, I thought wraiths were supposed to be unfair. :) But -98 HP did raise the mental image of a Dwarf smoothie straight from the blender. ;) Anyway, this wraith was the first I ever met, on level 37 I think, and the only reason I got there was because I played very conservatively. Lingering on levels getting XP, fleeing at low HP, ID'ing potentially dangerous items, and at times being a lucky bastard. Also I've been able to plan ahead to train the stats for the skills I wanted. Warrior's Strength, Wild Generation and Destroy Walls made life a lot easier.

Hope you'll be able fix the wraith behaviour soon. Good luck with that, and I'll check back regularly for the update.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: BDR on July 22, 2007, 20:49
And about IVAN and its dual wielding. I don't really know anything about IVAN, but I think dual wielding, two-handed weapons and 1 handed + shield should all be viable options.

Dual-wielding is extremely popular in IVAN because if you increase your arm strength enough, and have a wand of cloning (even empty will do thanks to 'a'pplying/breaking the wand granting one last charge), you can wield two of the exact same kind of weapon (which AFAIK if done means that you get both the bonus for using a weapon type you're experienced with twice, as well as the bonus for using that particular weapon twice).  Add to that anything you did to the weapon before cloning and you can get two very, very nice weapons to slay with.  2H weapons can work in IVAN, though it really helps to get one early so you can train up the skill and arm strength for it, and you'll likely also need to find enchant weapon scrolls to make it more survivably accurate (the iron 2H scimitar, for example, is by default "extremely inaccurate").  1H + Shield is pretty uncommon, because usually by the time you find a worthwhile shield you've already chosen one of the other two options.  The combat mechanics are plenty different enough that I figure it's not gonna be a problem to get what you're aiming for.

Also, after several tries I finally managed to reach level 10 where that boss killed me.  I could probably kill him easily, but I'll need to make better use of wall destruction, and possibly wands of detection if I can find them..  Is there any way to recharge wands, by the way, or are they useless once they run dry?
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 23, 2007, 05:27
BDR:

So, the wand DOES work on a weapon IF it has a special property?  Like, you can click on each weapon, like a geiger counter, and when it gets a spike you lose a charge?  Really?  Because I kinda like that mechanic in general for identification wands...
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 23, 2007, 06:53
So, the wand DOES work on a weapon IF it has a special property?  Like, you can click on each weapon, like a geiger counter, and when it gets a spike you lose a charge?  Really?  Because I kinda like that mechanic in general for identification wands...

Nope, it doesn't work like that. You can't identify weapons and pieces of armor if you don't know their B/C/U statuses. That means you have to wear them first (or zap a wand of curse detection) and thus reveal the prefix. After that you can use the wand of greater identification on the already identified piece of equipment to reveal more info about the prefix. The prefix names are sometimes quite mysterious, so this way you can find out what they mean.

Also, after several tries I finally managed to reach level 10 where that boss killed me.  I could probably kill him easily, but I'll need to make better use of wall destruction, and possibly wands of detection if I can find them..  Is there any way to recharge wands, by the way, or are they useless once they run dry?

I'm sure you can kill the boss soon enough if you think of a plan or happen to find a good wand. Wands aren't completely useless after they run dry, though sometimes you may want to sell them. Like in many roguelikes, zapping a dry wand many, many times results in a last charge. Also there is a shrine event that can recharge a random wand, but that's not very reliable.

And to Rabiat: I've updated the zip file on the website now, you can venture deeper into the caves now.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 23, 2007, 07:25
Is that update just for Rabiat or can we all download it? :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 23, 2007, 08:09
Is that update just for Rabiat or can we all download it? :)

Of course you all can download it, Rabiat just mentioned that he's checking the site, so I thought I'd let him know it's out. :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 23, 2007, 09:45
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
And to Rabiat: I've updated the zip file on the website now, you can venture deeper into the caves now.

Thanks for fixing it so quickly. I'm afraid I won't be going any deeper into the caves any time soon though, because my Dwarf's kinda dead. ;)

But I'll start over and maybe I'll finally try an archer character.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Blade on July 23, 2007, 13:13
Thanks, Glowie!

I was always trying to kill this Wraiths as soon as i see them by activating Warrior's strength, Critical strike and Accurate fighting style. If you are lucky enough, you have a chance to kill them by 1 or 2 attacks without getting hit. I thought that they are like walking death - they have little chance to hit, but if they hit you with their hand of DOOM, you have a great chance to die instantly.))

Two questions: is there are anything good in that you are  "closer to the Goddess"? I had read scroll and it said that i'm now "closer to the Goddess".))
Second one: is there are anything good in sacrificing armor, weapons and clothings to the Goddess, or she takes only money, wands, potions, and valuables(like all woman)).
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 23, 2007, 13:33
Thanks, Glowie!

I was always trying to kill this Wraiths as soon as i see them by activating Warrior's strength, Critical strike and Accurate fighting style. If you are lucky enough, you have a chance to kill them by 1 or 2 attacks without getting hit. I thought that they are like walking death - they have little chance to hit, but if they hit you with their hand of DOOM, you have a great chance to die instantly.))

Haha, great way of killing them, though their chance to hit is as good as any other monster's at that level, so they were VERY deadly walking deaths.

Two questions: is there are anything good in that you are  "closer to the Goddess"? I had read scroll and it said that i'm now "closer to the Goddess".))
Second one: is there are anything good in sacrificing armor, weapons and clothings to the Goddess, or she takes only money, wands, potions, and valuables

Being closer to the Goddess is my mysterious way of telling the player that he just got a bit of piety without having to sacrifice anything. There's nothing else in that.

Ammunition is the only thing that doesn't increase your piety when sacrificed. Weapons, clothing and pieces of armor increase piety, but it's a lot less than what, for example, valuable things give. The amount of piety you get when you sacrifice an item is the same as the amount of gold you get when you sell the item.

(like all woman)).

Haha!
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: BDR on July 23, 2007, 13:48
Like in many roguelikes, zapping a dry wand many, many times results in a last charge.

I far prefer IVAN's method whereby the last charge is extracted by simply breaking the wand, and that method is useful (given the right precautions, aka all the stuff you're hauling that is likely to be destroyed is safely stored away) even if you're using an attack wand (wand of striking/fireballs), though doing so is really only something you do out of desperation, mostly.  I can't imagine trying to get the last charge from a wand of frost bolt while something is busy attacking me, and needing to use those ID wands 20 times or so before I finally get that last charge of usefulness will be annoying.

As for the prefixes: Weapon prefixes actually make a fair bit of sense to me so far.  Cold draining = kill something, and the warmth of the dead thing is drained into you; heart-seeking = increased chance of critical hits; regenerating = increased health regen while wielding; fiery = extra burn damage to frost critters, and I presume the inverse is frosty.  Potions, on the other hand.....  Speaking of which, why don't those miserly sages tell me what the pots do as well as what their names are? >:(

Er, one last question: Scrolls you find on posts in the dungeon.. they don't show up too often, but if I read one of one type, and find another of the same type, will I recognize it, or is that always going to be a gamble?
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 24, 2007, 02:34
Blade, I thougth the stereotype with women included liking clothes!

I think the wraith's imbalance actually makes it interesting, but I'm OK with losing it if I'm not supposed to be scumming.

I actually found a wand that helps put those sages in their place, which was nice.

There was something else I wanted to say, but I'll edit to this box if I remember.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 24, 2007, 04:06
Like in many roguelikes, zapping a dry wand many, many times results in a last charge.

I far prefer IVAN's method whereby the last charge is extracted by simply breaking the wand, and that method is useful (given the right precautions, aka all the stuff you're hauling that is likely to be destroyed is safely stored away) even if you're using an attack wand (wand of striking/fireballs), though doing so is really only something you do out of desperation, mostly.  I can't imagine trying to get the last charge from a wand of frost bolt while something is busy attacking me, and needing to use those ID wands 20 times or so before I finally get that last charge of usefulness will be annoying.

That's not a bad alternative, but I don't think the difference is that big. Offensive wands are quite useless in both cases after they're dry, and getting the last charge from, say, identification wand isn't that annoying if you drop other wands and spam 'i' 'u'.

As for the prefixes: Weapon prefixes actually make a fair bit of sense to me so far.  Cold draining = kill something, and the warmth of the dead thing is drained into you; heart-seeking = increased chance of critical hits; regenerating = increased health regen while wielding; fiery = extra burn damage to frost critters, and I presume the inverse is frosty.  Potions, on the other hand.....  Speaking of which, why don't those miserly sages tell me what the pots do as well as what their names are? >:(

They were a lot worse in previous releases. I've tried to make them easier to understand, though there are still a few that don't make sense to everyone. At least you know the potion's effect after drinking it. Sages don't like sharing their infinite knowledge, they're very stingy. :P

Er, one last question: Scrolls you find on posts in the dungeon.. they don't show up too often, but if I read one of one type, and find another of the same type, will I recognize it, or is that always going to be a gamble?

It's always a gamble. There must always be a risk when there's a possibility of something good to happen.


I think the wraith's imbalance actually makes it interesting, but I'm OK with losing it if I'm not supposed to be scumming.

You are NOT supposed to scum. All scummers shall burn in the Roguelike Hell for all eternity in their miserable afterlife!
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 24, 2007, 04:31
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I think the wraith's imbalance actually makes it interesting, but I'm OK with losing it if I'm not supposed to be scumming.

Instadeaths are interesting, but also very annoying and discouraging. If they're caused by some vulnerability the player has overlooked, I think instadeaths are justified. But the dwarf that met the wraith was dressed like a leopard tank, and still got killed in a single hit.

BTW I've been playing my first Elven archer yesterday evening, and made it to DL11 with little difficulty. Ranged attacks are surprisingly effective, and staying out of melee range is not that difficult if you play carefully. Actually, I find this archer easier to play than the melee warriors I played so far; they don't suffer as much from melee effects such as poisoning, confusion and especially illness, which greatly increases survivability. After a couple of levels arrows ran out though; they're not that easy to come by in the dungeons themselves, so I've spent several 100$ on arrows from sages (forget about sacrifices, I need arrows!). There was never any real danger, not even from the &, although the Destroy Walls skill was an absolute necessity for that. It seems that archers in FD are easier than in most roguelikes. I think this is caused by the absence of strong quick-moving monsters in the earlier levels, and the fact that monsters don't block arrows. This makes it relatively safe to ignore a rat in melee and take your time shoot the hulking monstrosity behind it. :)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 24, 2007, 05:22
I'm teasing about scumming, although I don't think I'm immortal in real life like the rest of you, so whether or not I do it is up to me and my sense of my own mortality.  I'm not terribly worried about going to roguelike hell by the way, I have a wand of digging.

While I think such instandeaths are horrible, my point was that having enemies which are weak/strong in that sort of way helps vary the roster a bit.

My favorite monster so far is the slush monster because of its special ability.  Not sure what triggers it, though.

I don't know if anyone noticed, and you may consider this a spoiler, but when you get hit by the random-cursing ray, if your THROWN items get cursed, you can just throw them all until you run out.  When you pick up what's left, they will be uncursed.  I'm always happy when that slot turns red.  Means I dodged a bullet, of sorts!

Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 24, 2007, 07:22
Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I'm not terribly worried about going to roguelike hell by the way, I have a wand of digging.

If you use a Wand of Digging on the outer walls of Roguelike Hell, you shall walk straight into the Great Divide By Zero and endure the inescapable wrath of Segfault the Terrible.

For an unfinished roguelike project I once made up a nice protection against save-scumming. Every new player character is marked by a sequential numeric identifier, which is stored in the save file. If the character dies, the ID is stored in the final scores list. If somehow a save file is loaded which has an ID that also appears in the final scores, the game is loaded as usal, but the next level down will have a ridiculously dangerous monster spawn rate, which is always lethal. (The protection was pretty lame of course, but I still like the idea.)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on July 24, 2007, 10:20
As an archer I usually save arrows and thrown weapons as much as I can in the first 10 levels and use melee, after that try to use thrown weapons first and then arrows when/if needed. You'll run out of arrows sooner or later if you use them all the time.

That anti save scum method of yours is quite interesting, Rabiat, though even that can be fooled if the player copies the scores file before the ID was written there or quits the program before the new data to the scores is written. Of course he would have to know that you use the scores file for this. I like that dangerous monster spawn rate, serves them right! ;)

Oh the cursing trap can curse thrown weapons. That's not intentional, I guess I wrote that part when I was a bit sleepy. For example Sages can't uncurse thrown weapons and thrown weapons can't be cursed or blessed when you find them. But for now I won't fix that, it's not like it hurts the player.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 24, 2007, 10:42
Quote from: Glowie
As an archer I usually save arrows and thrown weapons as much as I can in the first 10 levels and use melee, after that try to use thrown weapons first and then arrows when/if needed. You'll run out of arrows sooner or later if you use them all the time.

I've been shooting even in melee range to get my ranged weapon skill up, but this is taking more arrows more quickly. The sages are becoming pretty expensive too, so I've sold every surplus item I found by now, including sacrificial fodder. I don't think I'll be able to keep this up for very long, so I guess I'll start training my thrown weapon skill (still at 2).

Edit: I just played the archer down to DL 21 and raised thrown weapon skill to 9. I would've been out of arrows for a long time now if I had only used archery. Picking the Create Snowballs skill was a very lucky guess (well, not so lucky for one particular &). :) I used Destroy Walls a lot, to create loops and keep out of melee range, and to create shortcuts between stairs so I could lug items back to sages. I've only met two of them (less than in previous games) and arrow pricing is ridiculous.

Quote from: Glowie
That anti save scum method of yours is quite interesting, Rabiat, though even that can be fooled if the player copies the scores file before the ID was written there or quits the program before the new data to the scores is written. Of course he would have to know that you use the scores file for this. I like that dangerous monster spawn rate, serves them right! ;)

That's why I said it was lame protection. :) It's rather hard to come up with decent protection against scumming. I just enjoyed the concept of punishing the scumming player in the game itself, and there's no roguelike I know of that actually does this. You're welcome to use the idea if you like it. My attempts at writing a complete roguelike have been postponed until 2040 anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Karry on July 24, 2007, 14:37
Quote
I just enjoyed the concept of punishing the scumming player in the game itself, and there's no roguelike I know of that actually does this.
ADoM has it.
ADoM has everything.

To be precise, ADoM punishes you for cheating, not for scumming, but sometimes when you load the save file it can bug out, and punish you anyway.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: zaimoni on July 24, 2007, 16:13
That's why I said it was lame protection. :) It's rather hard to come up with decent protection against scumming. I just enjoyed the concept of punishing the scumming player in the game itself, and there's no roguelike I know of that actually does this. You're welcome to use the idea if you like it. My attempts at writing a complete roguelike have been postponed until 2040 anyway. ;)
Hengband made it work.

I suppose one could always splice in Jeff Lait's Save Scummer to get integrated detection.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 24, 2007, 16:46
Played a bit more.  Died a lot.  One thing I like about ranged attackers is that you can just sit there and hold the shoot button until the creature dies.  When it dies, the thing instantly stops, unlike with a melee, where when you're done you go crazy-scooting into a wall.

I tried out ADOM for the first time today.  It had me wishing it was more random, like in Dwarf Fortress, but it seems good.  After being spoiled by easier interfaces in Doom and Frozen Depths, though, it's difficult for me to sift through screens, skills, and keymap screens.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 25, 2007, 01:18
Quote from: Karry
ADoM has it.

I know ADOM punishes the player for level scumming in some places, but to my knowledge there's no protection against save scumming. Could you explain what you mean by 'it punishes cheating'?

Quote from: Karry
ADoM has everything.

Except active development or available source code, unfortunately.

Quote from: zaimoni
Hengband made it work. (...) I suppose one could always splice in Jeff Lait's Save Scummer to get integrated detection.

You mean it has good protection against save scumming, or in-game punishment? And AFAIK Save Scummer is a proof of concept, not a functional protection/detection method. Anyway, my remark was not about the quality of protection.

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
Played a bit more.  Died a lot.  One thing I like about ranged attackers is that you can just sit there and hold the shoot button until the creature dies.

And there's no relation between holding down buttons and dying a lot? ;)

Quote from: DisaffectedBeta
I tried out ADOM for the first time today.  It had me wishing it was more random, like in Dwarf Fortress, but it seems good.  After being spoiled by easier interfaces in Doom and Frozen Depths, though, it's difficult for me to sift through screens, skills, and keymap screens.

It takes a while to get the hang of ADOM, but it's very rewarding once you do. You'll have lots of randomness once you get survival down (actually the game is dangerously random in some places). On the other hand, the fixed plot elements and quests will take years to discover if you don't want to read spoilers. And since you've admitted you're not immortal in real life, you may have to spend 20 hours per day on the game for 30 months straight, or consult Andy Williams' ADOM Guidebook. ;)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 25, 2007, 02:12
Well, my point was, if you hold down in melee, you go running past the creature once it drops.  In ranged it actually stops and asks you what's wrong with you for hitting shoot or target when there are no enemies onscreen.

As long as the guidebook marks spoilers I guess I can check it out.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: zaimoni on July 25, 2007, 05:32
Quote from: Karry
ADoM has it.

I know ADOM punishes the player for level scumming in some places, but to my knowledge there's no protection against save scumming. Could you explain what you mean by 'it punishes cheating'?
ADOM's monster power reacts to how many of a given type you've killed already, even in the normal areas.  Save-scumming tends to drive this up.

Quote from: zaimoni
Hengband made it work. (...) I suppose one could always splice in Jeff Lait's Save Scummer to get integrated detection.

You mean it has good protection against save scumming, or in-game punishment? And AFAIK Save Scummer is a proof of concept, not a functional protection/detection method. Anyway, my remark was not about the quality of protection.
In-game punishment (one room, no stairs out).  It has some backup procedure (first-tier is the *.lok file that should not be in Angband 3.0.8 when it comes out "shortly").  I haven't checked the source code, but there is enough dead space in the Angband-style save format that "when recent saves were" statistics could be stuffed in.

I know that Save Scummer is a proof-of-concept.  But, after allowing for combinatoric grouping (equivalent results downstream), it will provide a heuristic approach in conjunction with an RNG audit trail.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Karry on July 26, 2007, 04:25
Quote
ADOM's monster power reacts to how many of a given type you've killed already, even in the normal areas.  Save-scumming tends to drive this up.
You're wrong, i meant a totally different thing.
Basically, if ADoM detects (or thinks) something is wrong with the savefile - it gives you some message after load, and turn every damn monster totally unbeatable. All monsters hit extremely hard, and you virtually cant hit them at all. You wont live long, thats for sure.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on July 29, 2007, 11:04
It's not healthy to play Frozen Depths and Doom back to back, at least for me.  After saving my game in Frozen Depths I went directly to doom.  I promptly forgot that acid pools were NOT rings, that ammunition were NOT long dead adventurers, and that h's were not scary.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Rabiat on July 30, 2007, 07:44
Next time you switch to Frozen Depths, just remember not to pull the &. ;)
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: RickVoid on August 27, 2007, 07:09
Well, I got to play Frozen Depths over the weekend. Overall, I think it's very well done and I look forward to seeing more development. I was only able to get as far as the the 10th floor (where I was slaughtered, horribly, by the boss) but what I saw over the dungeons, monsters, and traps (in my third run, all the traps were either one-shot curse traps, or poison-tipped javelons, ouch) was very impressive. I'd like to see a screen that describes the items, as well as in-game skill descriptions (I don't like having to switch back to the manual everytime I gain a new skill) but these are minor gripes overall.

I do have one question though: how the hell do I loot the stuff off of the dead adventurers!? The "," pick-up command ain't doin' it for me, and all the manual does is mention my frozen precursors as lootable bodies. I'm all for looting corpses, but *how* do I do it?

:)

On an unrelated note, I'm tired of the constant "ADOM is teh kickass/ADOM is teh suxors" arguments that pop up everytime a new rougelike is released. I played ADOM. I prefer Crawl, and I've never played Angband. I played this game. Their playing styles and ages are far enough apart that I really don't think it's fair to compare any of them, or to suggest that he should copy things from ADOM. Not every rougelike needs to be a ADOM or Angband clone. I like variety in my ASCII games, don't you?
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Blade on August 27, 2007, 08:43
I do have one question though: how the hell do I loot the stuff off of the dead adventurers!? The "," pick-up command ain't doin' it for me, and all the manual does is mention my frozen precursors as lootable bodies. I'm all for looting corpses, but *how* do I do it?

"u"se them.))
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: RickVoid on August 27, 2007, 09:37
I do have one question though: how the hell do I loot the stuff off of the dead adventurers!? The "," pick-up command ain't doin' it for me, and all the manual does is mention my frozen precursors as lootable bodies. I'm all for looting corpses, but *how* do I do it?

"u"se them.))

...

Wow.

I feel dumb now. So simple, yet so difficult.

I have to go cry now.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Conker on August 27, 2007, 10:00
Similar dumb question - how do I sacrifice? The manual says go to a shrine and press 'u', but that doesn't seem to work. The first time, a little demon came and fireballed my equipment (lovely). Now nothing happens. I've got a load of silver statues I want to offer up, so the Goddess might uncurse my weapon/ring.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: RickVoid on August 27, 2007, 10:41
Similar dumb question - how do I sacrifice? The manual says go to a shrine and press 'u', but that doesn't seem to work. The first time, a little demon came and fireballed my equipment (lovely). Now nothing happens. I've got a load of silver statues I want to offer up, so the Goddess might uncurse my weapon/ring.

There are actually two different types of shrines (surprise!!). The one that you described is a Spirit Shrine. When 'u'sed, it bestows a random effect on you- and they aren't always good. Those are one shot deals. The other one is a Goddess Shrine (specifically named so, but uses the same symbol). When you 'u'se it, it brings you to the sacrifice menu. These can be used again and again.

Now, I have yet to sacrifice enough that she likes me enough to respond to my prayers, but I gather you sacrifice first, then attempt to pray (press the '_' symbol). Good luck!
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Conker on August 27, 2007, 11:18
Similar dumb question - how do I sacrifice? The manual says go to a shrine and press 'u', but that doesn't seem to work. The first time, a little demon came and fireballed my equipment (lovely). Now nothing happens. I've got a load of silver statues I want to offer up, so the Goddess might uncurse my weapon/ring.

There are actually two different types of shrines (surprise!!). The one that you described is a Spirit Shrine. When 'u'sed, it bestows a random effect on you- and they aren't always good. Those are one shot deals. The other one is a Goddess Shrine (specifically named so, but uses the same symbol). When you 'u'se it, it brings you to the sacrifice menu. These can be used again and again.

Now, I have yet to sacrifice enough that she likes me enough to respond to my prayers, but I gather you sacrifice first, then attempt to pray (press the '_' symbol). Good luck!

Thanks a lot! One less thing to figure out.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on August 27, 2007, 15:40
Two things in this game I wouldn't mind seeing in Doom:

A maze with a lot of thick walls with narrow corridors and nested rooms like Frozen Depths, and most of all, a pause that occurs every time the player takes enough damage to be near death.

*goes to bed*
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Conker on August 27, 2007, 19:15
Two things in this game I wouldn't mind seeing in Doom:

A maze with a lot of thick walls with narrow corridors and nested rooms like Frozen Depths, and most of all, a pause that occurs every time the player takes enough damage to be near death.

*goes to bed*

The only problem with the second idea is that in hectic situations, upwards of 60% health can be lost in a single round. It's rarely not noticing my health level that kills me, anyway.

After an evening of playing, FD does seem to have some neat features, such as the shrines, instant-use scrolls, the whole warmth thing, but it's a bit too luck-based for my tastes, in terms of equipping cursed items, stat gains, etc. I'll be keeping an eye on it though.

Best run: Killed the second boss on my ninth go at the game, only to die to a potion of acid that did around 70+hp damage when I opened it. Meh.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on August 28, 2007, 07:32
"The only problem with the second idea is that in hectic situations, upwards of 60% health can be lost in a single round. It's rarely not noticing my health level that kills me, anyway."

Speaking from personal experience, I'd say about 80% of my deaths occurred because I was too caught up in the (usually turned based, but sometimes I still hold down the keys when walking over water) action to notice my health had dropped by little drops to the point where I was swatted and died.  In Frozen Depths I'd often find myself in dire situations, but I knew that when the warning came it up it was time to stop my dreams of blood and run away.  I realize some purists prefer to have every avoidable consequence be the player's fault, but I get a ton of messages in that little window that I rarely ever read which stop the game until I clear the "more" buffer, but it never is as much use as a "stop, you're going to die" message would be. 

I wouldn't base it on percent, though, I'd base it on actual hitpoints.  Either that, or have the player set it him or herself, so it's more like a built in player aid than a set-in-stone machine.

As far as FD, I feel it scales better than other roguelikes I've played.  I agree about the cursed items, though.  It tends to be a rather frequent and irritating problem.  Even diversifying the problems you get when you equip something (saps your warmth, sticks you with a poison spike, whatever) would still make equipping things dangerous, but not so melancholic.

I like the random stat in addition to the chosen stat.  I think that's kinda fun and oldschool because...  well...  I'm oldschool.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: tisiphone on August 29, 2007, 17:40
Yeah, I have to agree with DisaffectedBeta, a “you’re about to die” message would be handy. Come to think of it, would it be possible to have your health treated with the same warning message and change in colour as when your armour is about to break? It would certainly help me live a bit longer (for better or worse) and it wouldn’t slow down the gameplay at all.

To Glowie:
Great game, by the way! :D

“u”sing the dead bodies had me confused for a bit too and I didn’t like having to switch between the manual and the game but I really like the levelling system and the simplicity of the controls made it easy to enjoy. Interestingly two of my best runs ended not from any monster but from potions :(. I’ll have to be more careful with them in the future... but yeah, it’s a really nice game, thumbs up :D. 
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Blade on August 30, 2007, 16:11
I'm for "low health" message in DooMRL, it will be helpful.

I haven't found enough types of useful potions to make it worthy to try every one on yourself. And charges of wand of identification are too valuable to waste them on potions.
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on August 31, 2007, 06:50
Thanks for the comments again guys! A few things again:

Quite many new players have wondered how to loot the frozen corpses, you're not the only one. The reason why it's not just ',' like the pick up is because there might be an item on the corpse that you might not want to take for some reason. I'll add this info to the READ_THIS_FIRST in the next version, perhaps it helps a bit.

A potion can be very dangerous if you haven't identified it. The only time you should drink an unidentified potion is when you are in front of a certain death and a random healing potion can save you, or if you want to identify a potion by drinking it (I usually do this when I have >1 potions of the same type), be sure you're in a safe location. On the other hand, many potions can save your life in a tough situation.
And to Blade specifically, I noticed this too, there were too many evil potions compared to the good ones in the previous version. And luckily for the players, I removed some of the evil potions and added more positive effects. You may want to waste an identify on a potion if all your accessories are identified and you've got spare money/charges.

And last but not least, in DoomRL I, too, die way too often when I run through an "empty" place or don't pay enough attention to my hp. Yay for a low health message for DoomRL!
Title: Low Health Warning in Doom
Post by: DisaffectedBeta on August 31, 2007, 10:20
Since I'm getting a lot of agreement on this, should I start a separate post?
Title: Re: Low Health Message
Post by: RickVoid on September 02, 2007, 11:09
Sure, I'll second that. I sometimes play DoomRL like I play Doom- Hold down the move button, and twitch shoot. Which is bad. Having something that forces me to stop when my health is low should save a few poor bastard marines.

On a wholly unrelated note, I managed to kill the first boss. Dwarven Rangers wielding blessed copper flails with a blessed stunning willow bow ready to swap in for the win! :)

And I officially hate traps. Which gives me a thought. Glowie, have you considered giving players permanent, always active traits? For example, all classes get the same traits, but they get them in different orders. So while a Ranger might get Trap Sense (a trait that either gives you a bonus to dodging traps, or gives you a chance to see a trip before you trip it) at level 3 or so, a Fighter might not get the trait until level 9 or 10. The player doesn't choose the trait they receive, they get it automatically on level-up.

Back to the Frozen Depths!
Title: Re: Frozen Depth 1.02 released!
Post by: Glowie on September 03, 2007, 10:58
On a wholly unrelated note, I managed to kill the first boss. Dwarven Rangers wielding blessed copper flails with a blessed stunning willow bow ready to swap in for the win! :)

And I officially hate traps. Which gives me a thought. Glowie, have you considered giving players permanent, always active traits? For example, all classes get the same traits, but they get them in different orders. So while a Ranger might get Trap Sense (a trait that either gives you a bonus to dodging traps, or gives you a chance to see a trip before you trip it) at level 3 or so, a Fighter might not get the trait until level 9 or 10. The player doesn't choose the trait they receive, they get it automatically on level-up.

Back to the Frozen Depths!

Good work, that character seemed to have incredible luck in the first 10 floors.

Early in the development I had something like that in mind, but then decided that I've got enough different skills/potions/wands/accessories/dungeon feature effects to create. I thought I might run out of good ideas, I prefer no trait system to a small and bad trait system. Now that I've created the other things, I could consider the possibility of adding some kind of a trait system to make the trainings a bit different. I'll add this to the "Maybe" section of the to-do list. :)