Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: 007bistromath on February 02, 2011, 00:59

Title: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: 007bistromath on February 02, 2011, 00:59
I'm pretty sure we've talked about keys before, and I'm also pretty sure we've discarded them, because although "find the key" gameplay was a cornerstone of the era Doom is from, it would really screw up DoomRL's coffee break pacing.

I fixed it!

If a key is on a level, whether it is generated or carried, there is a chance a vault will be on it with indestructible walls and a door of the same color. But they shouldn't just be vaults. It's more fun if we make the color mean something. Blue doors could hide meds and powerups. Yellow doors contain equipment and mods. Red doors contain a whole bunch of overleveled monsters.

Even more fun!

As long as we're coloring things, let's paint some levers, too. A blue lever megaspheres you when you pull it and doesn't run out. A yellow lever dumps a bunch of ammo every where. A red lever smashes you into pulp.

So why would I want a red key?

Because the colors in these descriptions were placeholders. Remember how in old school roguelikes, you wouldn't know what a wand did until you tested it? A particular color of key is a mystery until you find something to stick it in. Good luck! :V
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: MaiZure on February 02, 2011, 01:31
My rockets laugh at your keys! :P

I'm not so sure about this one for reasons you already mentioned; turning the levels in to puzzles detracts from the coffeebreak style - for DoomRL 2 however....
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: 007bistromath on February 02, 2011, 01:52
Your rockets didn't notice that I specified indestructible vaults. :V

As for the "puzzle" aspect, it isn't present here. If there is a key, there might be a vault, that's it. You're not going to get sealed off from part of a level, and the stairs aren't in there. The key is not hidden behind a bunch of barrels, nor does it require you to pull a specific lever. A Baron of Hell did not eat it. It might spawn behind a hazard floor, but anything can do that, and since the only thing keys do in my model is give you bonus junk, you can skip it if you can't swing the damage.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: Kg on February 02, 2011, 04:24
And monsters behind red door shouldn't count as kills? So you can have 100% without visiting red doors?
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: raekuul on February 02, 2011, 07:07
It's a good idea in theory, but like people have said, it's not really a good idea for DooM RL as the game is now.

So, the vaults would be like the ones in The Vaults, only with indestructible color-coded doors?
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: ParaSait on February 02, 2011, 07:11
C'mon people, just face it: DoomRL + Keys != Fun.
Creative idea, but this game just ain't made for it.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: Gargulec on February 02, 2011, 07:58
Quote from: Mrazerty on February 02, 2011, 07:11
C'mon people, just face it: DoomRL + Keys != Fun.
Creative idea, but this game just ain't made for it.

This.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: Kashi on February 02, 2011, 10:20
Quote from: Mrazerty on February 02, 2011, 07:11
C'mon people, just face it: DoomRL + Keys != Fun.
Creative idea, but this game just ain't made for it.
True as Hell (At least it's not called Hidden Fun Stuff)
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: Game Hunter on February 02, 2011, 12:09
I'm just gonna quote what I said in the last keycard thread:

Quote from: Myself
The only practical way to go with this suggestion is for special levels. Walls are entirely destructible in this game, therefore any keycard problems can be avoided by means of explosives. Special levels, on the other hand, often contain indestructible walls, and it'd be a nice addition to the Phobos Base specials (you know, one that ACTUALLY feels like it's part of the Phobos Base).
That said, if Kornel feels like adding yet another special level, it would fit better in the Base half (which has five specials, while the Hell half has six). It doesn't have to be a difficult level but a deceptive one, kind of like Hellgate, in which a number of surprises await the unprepared player. Stuff like picking up cards/items causing walls to drop or enemies to teleport in, or some kind of toggleable acid/lava flow, or an actual need for rocket-jumping (somehow).

Not that keycards in the everyday level would be all that common ANYWAY. How many vaults do you think the average successful game has? Four or five? It probably wouldn't change the flow of the game enough to where people would actively complain about it.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: 007bistromath on February 02, 2011, 15:15
You guys are really not getting the concept here. There are no "keycard problems" with this idea. A locked vault would never be generated unless the appropriate key were somewhere on the level. The key wouldn't be difficult to find; the worst it could be is behind some goop like anything else you might want to grab. If you didn't get the key for whatever reason, which there is basically no reason for unless you absolutely can't stomach the goop at the moment or you're playing AoRA or something, then future floors would not have that color door unless another key spawns.

You guys seem to be looking at this and saying "keys, blah, that's boring." You're missing the fact that this idea directly addresses the problems that make keys boring. It's just a new way to put in more item rolls, bring back some old flavor, and make you wiggle your inventory around. It shouldn't kill the pace at all.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: raekuul on February 02, 2011, 16:06
Except it does kill the pace.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: 007bistromath on February 02, 2011, 17:07
How? It doesn't really make you do anything different except hold on to something. This doesn't require solving any puzzles, moving any garbage, or even searching a level unless you actually find a door without a key, and if you do, said key will be sitting in plain sight in one of the rooms you haven't seen yet. If you can't put up with about twenty seconds of backtracking should that happen, I have no idea how you get through this game anyway, since it's generally necessary to go back over a level to top off on armor and restoratives once it's cleared out.

The net effect of tying special vaults to keys is that there are more vaults with more varied caches in them. That's about it.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: ParaSait on February 02, 2011, 17:31
Well, in that case keys are just useless. Or, at least, a little annoyance.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: Kashi on February 02, 2011, 17:59
Quote from: Mrazerty on February 02, 2011, 17:31
Well, in that case keys are just useless. Or, at least, a little annoyance.

Adding to that, there aren't actually "unbreakable" doors. Just locked ones, that can be destroyed open with a shotty and other stuff, like Launchers. The need of a key to open a door would be... needless, considering you can open it faster.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: ZZ on February 03, 2011, 09:07
The item drop system in the game is pretty balanced and is not in need of changing. Vaults as they are give you enough extraordinary stuff and if we add keys it would be too much good stuff for a single marine to hold. So, keys won't be picked up, and thus they're useless and boring.
Agrred with GameHunter about it's a good idea for a special level.
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: rchandra on February 03, 2011, 10:13
how about combining this with a new lever effect?  a vault can be spawned, with indestructible walls and no door.  if it is, there's a lever somewhere that destroys those walls.  There should be no enemies / stairs in the vault, since levers can be destroyed. (alternately, destroying the lever could also destroy the walls, or the lever could be indestructible).
Title: Re: A Keys Idea That Isn't Boring
Post by: Garlyle on February 03, 2011, 13:31
I think I get the objection, less on the basis of 'more stuff to carry', but more on the basis of "if the key is generated on the level it is used, it just slows you down to run over, pick it up, and run back to the door".

I'd actually be more in favour of the idea of small locked rooms generated with extra treasure that require keys, when I stop and think about it - ultimately giving the players a choice if they want to cart a card key around with them or not.  Kind of like carrying around an Envirosuit pack "just in case" you happen to need to cross a room filled with magma, players could opt for carrying a keycard "just in case" a locked vault spawns.