Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Kornel Kisielewicz on September 05, 2010, 18:31
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I'm preparing some plans for the future of DoomRL and I noticed that some recent topics about strategies include a lot of what would be considered abuses of DoomRL's mechanics. There's a soft border between what would be considered abuse and what would be considered tactics. If you can imagine such a tactic working in real life then it would be considered fair (corner-opening doors is surprisingly one such example), but if not, then it's abuse (gift-dropping).
I'd like to make this topic serve as a list for me of abuses that shall be removed some day from DoomRL.
I understand that some of the abuses may be life saving, but still, please report them truthfully -- we'll work on returning the balance from the lack of them. Hence, please report how the difficulty would change if such an abuse were removed, and what ideas you have to counter them.
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Hm. Does that mean that Rocket Jumping counts as abuse since it cannot be conceivably achieved in real life? =P
But I suppose what you mean would be bugs in game mechanics as opposed to bugs in the program code itself.
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I'm not really sure if this counts as abuse but;
The enemies that do not know your presence always move to the middle point of the map. Always. This alone allows me to easily clear rooms with just knowing the fact they are moving to middle.
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Honestly, I don't see why any Barons or Hell Knights (and probably Bruiser Brothers, thank god that isn't often) would ever pick up items like the formers do. I can understand that, even with their zombie-like intelligence, that type of enemy would be genetically and perhaps intuitively aware of the mechanics of med-packs and phase devices, not to mention that they're the correct size to wear the armor correctly. Barons and Hell Knights wouldn't be disposed to such equipment, so why they would ever carry it around, let alone understand how to take advantage of it (let alone be physically capable of wearing the armor). At best, let them carry the items but don't let them use any.
As for gift-dropping in general, I don't think it's too much of a problem to let it go. Alternatively, however, you may want to introduce a sound mechanic that alerts enemies of your general whereabouts based on the noise coming off your gun (depends on the weapon, too: rockets would really only make noise at the source of the explosion, fists would be almost mute). This way, in AoB you could potentially lure enemies by throwing knives onto the floor or into a wall...not a loud noise, of course, but enough to catch the attention of anything pretty close. (Or just give the chainsaw an alt fire of revving the engine, heh.)
Other abuses I can think of:
- The AI pathing found in Barons and HKs will end up really predictable from the other side of a wall. Same goes for Bruisers, perhaps even to a greater extreme. AoD should be a LITTLE more aware that he's entering lava, too...I wouldn't remove the lathbath exploit entirely, but if he can move away from the lava and still be on target toward the player, let him do that.
- There are a few "one-way safe" shots that allow the attacker to cause harm without the victim getting sight the attacker. I see it most commonly along diagonals between rooms.
- Shotgun bullet pathing sucks half of the time, perhaps literally. As I mentioned in another thread, you're fine shooting down a hallway in some directions but not in others. At the same time, however, you might want to cap how far you can actually shoot down a hallway, maybe drastically reduce damage for shotguns (in the same way that accuracy is drastically reduced for normal weapons). Right now, corner-shooting down a hallway some ten tiles seems a LITTLE extreme.
- Using knockback with pistols to repeatedly shoot enemies out of your vision makes you essentially immune to them, as they always simply come back into view, only to be knocked away again. Though, I can't really think of a fix, except that the enemy stop chasing you after a few attempts or something.
- I know that in Hell's Arena N!, if I am zerked going into the level, I usually kill a few enemies close to each other, then lure a Cacodemon and stand in the middle of the corpses. Cacodemon hits me with a plasma ball, corpses are gone. This (almost) always gets rid of corpses, but I don't know if it should be as reliable. At the same time, however, I kinda wish there was a more reliable way of gibbing and corpse-removal in general...you'd think a double shotgun to a former's face would do the trick.
- There are some killing strategies that remove corpses unconventionally, namely stacking enemy deaths on the same tile or killing them while on a door. If you lower the respawn rate a little to compensate, consider fixing these.
- Most enemies don't know how to remove themselves from acid/lava. Barons/HKs/formers/Arachs all will continue to stand in hazards as long as you remain in their vision to fire, and basically everything will stay it if they're also surrounded on all tiles.
- Lost Souls + Vampyre = instant 200% health. Reduce the health gain for Lost Souls to 1 HP per kill and this should make it so you actually have to think about it, rather than running into the room gung-ho.
- Ammochain is an abuse in general, and alternatives should be considering during a beta test (there's a thread for it if you want some ideas). In my honest opinion, MAc can be appropriately nerfed as long as you remove the 100% chance of getting agility mods in the Chained Court.
- Juggler, according to the game, works with both the prepared slot and quick keys...excluding exotics/uniques (but including chainsaw and BFG), this lets you insta-swap any weapon you own. If you happen to need two of the same weapon (usually shotgun-type), that's all the prepared slot needs to be used for.
- Revs, Mancubi and Viles need better melee, considering I've NEVER been attacked by one up close in all the time I've been playing. If I recall the original game, Revenants are really nasty punchers...the other two either need to know how to run away better or have an attack they feel like using (maybe Mancubi can have a low damage but knockback hit).
- I'm fairly certain nuking JC gives you a full win, even if you aren't invulnerable (and hence die with him). Might want to consider reducing it to a standard victory, considering you didn't really defeat the true evil. At the same time, however, anything short of killing him conventionally should ALSO grant a standard victory (though I think this part is already a known bug).
That's all I can think of right now. Thankfully, there aren't a lot and, if anything, the game needs a few saving graces to make it a little easier (cross-monster infighting?).
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I think the best way to stop giftdropping would be to have enemies no longer pick up / care about items at all. it always feels like such a kick when an enemy uses your medpack/homing phase or you pick up armor at 14% from all the filth that has worn it first. That would maintain some balance as well, removing a trick and a hindrance.
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1) Line of Sight quirks.
It's amusing to imagine your person using walls as cover, but it's not clear to non-veterans exactly what precise positioning is required to take advantage of it (or that it even exists to be taken advantage of). I think it's an interesting mechanic worth saving, but needs to be clarified. Not sure how exactly though.
2) Intuition 2 is too powerful.
Int 2 totally breaks most challenge in the game. It is exceedingly difficult to lose once you get int 2, unless you spawn in the middle of a pile of arachs in a cave.
I'd suggest either watering down the effect (ie: only giving a vague idea of enemy location, not precise); or providing a serious downside (ie: all enemies become aware of your location as well, and beeline towards you); or changing it to something else entirely (ie: give full computer map each level start).
3) Ammochain is too powerful.
Having both infinite ammo and no-reloading is too powerful, and needs to be toned down to just one of those. I personally prefer just infinite-ammo, since then the various reloading traits and mods remain useful.
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3) Ammochain is too powerful.
Having both infinite ammo and no-reloading is too powerful, and needs to be toned down to just one of those. I personally prefer just infinite-ammo, since then the various reloading traits and mods remain useful.
That doesn't make sense. If there's infinite ammo, why would we need to reload at all?
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3) Ammochain is too powerful.
Having both infinite ammo and no-reloading is too powerful, and needs to be toned down to just one of those. I personally prefer just infinite-ammo, since then the various reloading traits and mods remain useful.
That doesn't make sense. If there's infinite ammo, why would we need to reload at all?
The idea is that the weapon would still "deplete" to zero, and then you'd have to add new ammo from your infinite supply. In the context of the name itself (a big ol' chain of ammo) it doesn't make literal sense, but, then again, we COULD change the name to describe its new feature. Just saying.
If you're looking for a quick to-do list for some (hopefully) easy changes, Kornel, I would propose the following:
- Either change or allow randomization for the hidden agi caches in Chained Court
- Either lower the reach or damage of shotgun-type weapons along walls
- Give Revs/Viles/Mancubi a melee attack that they use whenever the player is adjacent (doesn't mean they'll prioritize it, but it should be up there)
- Fix AI to tell monsters that leaving acid/lava is a top priority, even above attacking the player (it introduces a different abuse, but one much harder to pull off and therefore plausible)
Based on what I've heard, aiming and shell pathing have already been worked on, so I didn't include it. Personally I would include that enemies can't pick up stuff, too: if nothing else it's a quick fix to gift-dropping. Alternatively, they pick up stuff in their spare time, just don't use it (at best it's an unexpected surprise; at worst you never knew it happened).
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For gift dropping a good fix could be that they only pick up items that were originally spawned in the level, make them "blind" to the new appearing items that weren't generated along side with the level.
Not sure if possible to script though.
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For gift dropping a good fix could be that they only pick up items that were originally spawned in the level, make them "blind" to the new appearing items that weren't generated along side with the level.
Not sure if possible to script though.
Sounds easy enough. Just have a flag for every item on the level indicating whether it was dropped or originally there.
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I do not consider gift dropping to be an exploit anymore. When Barons would go out of their way to pick up worthless items like pistols then it was an exploit. Now they can use everything they pickup.
And not allowing enemies to use armor and Medpacks would be lame. I like the occasional surprise of finding a hard to kill Former Human because it found some Red Armor. And although I hate it when a nearly dead Baron uses a Large Medpack, it adds challenge to the game.
I think the gift dropping is balanced by the benefit that the enemies get.
The biggest meta-game exploit IMO is the moving to the center of the map issue mentioned by Fanta Hege. It means if I know the layout of the map I almost always know where the enemies have ended up.
Along those same lines, knowing what doors have opened on the unseen portion of the map is also a huge help. It lets you know where the enemies are wandering and I believe that most advanced players (especially on Nightmare) are in the habit of closing doors behind them so they can see where enemies are moving.
IMO, Ammochain and Intuition are not abuses since they are "working as designed". Discussions of how they should or should not be nerfed are probably better in other threads so they do not clog up this one. I personally believe they are fine as-is because of their cost and the limitations on what traits are excluded.
I also do not consider shooting around corners to be an abuse or exploit. People do it all the time IRL. It is like shooting from cover. I just wish that the shotguns would be consistent in all directions as has been mentioned by others. If anything needs to be changed about it, you could drop the accuracy of the shot as though shooting beyond sight range. When to use this could be determined by calculating LOS both ways (shooter to target and target to shooter). If only one is clear then apply the "shooting from cover" or "shooting around a corner" penalty. There should be a warning of some kind to the shooter though. Ammo can be precious and I would hate to unload a volley from a Plasma Rifle at 50% (or less) accuracy without knowing it.
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I also do not consider shooting around corners to be an abuse or exploit. People do it all the time IRL. It is like shooting from cover. I just wish that the shotguns would be consistent in all directions as has been mentioned by others. If anything needs to be changed about it, you could drop the accuracy of the shot as though shooting beyond sight range. When to use this could be determined by calculating LOS both ways (shooter to target and target to shooter). If only one is clear then apply the "shooting from cover" or "shooting around a corner" penalty. There should be a warning of some kind to the shooter though. Ammo can be precious and I would hate to unload a volley from a Plasma Rifle at 50% (or less) accuracy without knowing it.
Firstly, shooting beyond your vision does impart a 50% accuracy penalty (at least according to the wiki), which is very obviously noticeable when you use a chaingun to corner-shoot HKs or Cacos down a hallway. I have no problem with that, and forcing ANOTHER 50% accuracy penalty just because the enemy can't see you is too much.
What I DO have a problem with is that combat shotguns can effectively make use of corner-shooting by not having any accuracy at all, thereby eliminating the accuracy penalty. Adding a damage penalty would bring it to par with other weapons, while a range penalty would act similarly in that trying to blinding fire a shotgun down a narrow hallway simply won't hit anything but wall after a certain distance.
I could take your point further, however, and argue that corner-shooting should still entail some risk. Mind you, shooting from cover in practical cases decreases your CHANCE of being hit: it doesn't reduce the odds of retaliation to zero. What players seem to be able to do (ala visualization of the situation) is overextend their arms and fire the weapon without allowing any other parts of their body to leave the wall/cover. This is unrealistic to do with a 20kg weapon as it rattles from each shot. Firing from cover would be shooting at a diagonal from the wall such that CAN see each other, but the enemy is going to miss a lot because you're able to hide a good portion of your body while firing.
However, I wouldn't say no to a corner-shooting "mode" that lets you view around corners and shoot accordingly, at the cost of a reduced but non-zero chance to get hit (which would depend on the weapon you're wielding).
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Beating a dead horse, but lemme do it anyway.
Corner shooting can be considered vital in a ranged combat-heavy roguelike like DoomRL. The grid world where everything is based on is extremely Wolfenstein like, which means that if you are playing strictly by the book what one can and cannot see, then the doors into any room become death traps for the player, which in real life is hardly true since you can hide and shoot from there. As far as I see, corner shooting is a very nice [and important!] feature, not an abuse.
What becomes an abuse from corner shooting is when we have buggy weapons that misbehave. Ever hit and killed things that hugged so close to the wall on the other side that you ought not be able to hit them given your LOS and the firing arc with a double shotty? Or how about the sweet spot where you can shoot at the enemies without impunity even though you are directly in the LOS of the enemy?
As for the corner-shooting "mode", I think it just complicates things. If we want to be hyper realistic about things, observe that DoomGuy still moves as fast when wielding his chaingun and carrying nearly 1120 rounds of 10mm bullets, a couple of blue armours, 20+ rockets, a rocket launcher and quite a few med-packs.
That aside here's a suggestion I have. Rework the calculation for scoring hits. For straight firing weapons, that's sort of clear how it might work out -- just associate an extra modifier on top of the current ToHit calculations that scales according to whether the target is within the weapon's effective range or not. For things like shotguns, reduce the arc of fire and introduce the idea of "pellets" ala Doom (http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Shotgun). The key observation is that shotgun fire in DoomRL have a much much larger spread than that of Doom, which is why we seem to have all these abuses related to corner firing and the like.
Okay, I'm losing my train of thought from this 6-line edit box, so I shall stop now.
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Along those same lines, knowing what doors have opened on the unseen portion of the map is also a huge help. It lets you know where the enemies are wandering and I believe that most advanced players (especially on Nightmare) are in the habit of closing doors behind them so they can see where enemies are moving.
I'd file this under abuse, unless previous memory/Computer Map is really supposed to act like the old Doom map. In that game, you WERE notified when doors opened and closed, noises aside. However, one thing that should certainly be fixed is seeing when ammo/equipment/packs are picked up by enemies: the map memory should remain committed to how you saw it last, until you're in range to see whether or not it's there. Same goes for barrels...if they explode, you shouldn't see them disappear. If liquid fills the room/map, it shouldn't be present on any tile you haven't explored since releasing it.
This might be a little advanced, but I'm wondering if a monster's vision is updated only when it's their turn to act. I ask because this is almost certainly the case with the player (I can't tell you how many times I've tried to enter a room and a sergeant shoots me out before I can see anything in there) and I believe I have managed to abuse this when it comes to explosion knockback. Hard to say, really, because most enemies keep charging anyway after enough damage. I know this will be a concern when zerking, however, because speed is significantly reduced in it duration.
I've been finding that most enemies are extremely predictable after taking enough damage. As a result, I can usually lure them into view by taking into account the whole "same row, then same column" rule and keep myself in relative safety. On the other hand, there are a LOT of times where, were this not the case, I would have no way to attack without taking massive damage. Can't think of an easy work-around, either, aside from a keeping their patterns slightly erratic in addition to lure-resistant. (Frankly, the best AI is probably Revenants/Arch-viles, or at least in their context of playing keep-away, with Imps in second.)
Since I've posted, I may as well add another two cents regarding corner-shooting and one-way shots. In any current case where both enemies can see each other (but the monster doesn't attack), I think there should be a "cover bonus" to dodging/evasion to whoever is hugging the wall, thereby keeping the advantage alive but reducing the abuse heavily. In cases where one can see/fire on the other without vision from the other, I believe that should be fixed entirely. From my understanding, it only works in certain directions, so it's related (somewhat) to the corner problems of shotguns.
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I would literally completely give up on playing doomRL if corner-shooting and giftdropping were removed. They allow for 90% of the tactics in the game, and it's not like the game is too easy right now.
To put it another way, these 'abuses' make the game fun. Without it, doomrl would just be a mind-numbing excersice in walking around and pressing the 'f' key, with little thought behind it.
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I have to agree with Sylph.
I see no shortage of YASD games on the Post-Mortems, which shows to me that people are still losing pretty often. Except for me, but that's because I try to play this game to the point where I become one with the Doomguy.
Doomguy Mind Meld, baby.
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Abuse or not, the "get shot by a shotgunner before the door even finishes opening" behavior is, sadly, consistent with the original Doom, as is corner-shooting, now that i think of it - remember how you pistol killed mancubi and cacos from behind decorations and chaingunners by shooting their barely-visible-behind-a-corner shoulders?
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Ayep. Still do it all the time.
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Let's not forget that the removal of any of these abuses will likely be countered by some other balance that will keep the game playable. I agree that the game is still a little harder than it should be, but a lot of its difficulty comes from the opposite end of player exploits: that is, enemy exploits. Most of these are intentional right now, but several could get a toned-down treatment. For instance, I totally avoided mentioning formers in the last post, but their AI is certainly the most ridiculous (as underscored by commandos), such that there are situations where I know with about 95% certainty that I will not survive peeking out from a wall, nor will I ever hope to corner-shoot him. I'm not going to go on (it's for another thread, surely) but I'd rather the game get harder before getting easier...given that I play on UV/N! regularly (with UV always feeling a lot easier, even if it's not often a win) we could handle removing the exploits that only experienced players use anyway.
Abuse or not, the "get shot by a shotgunner before the door even finishes opening" behavior is, sadly, consistent with the original Doom, as is corner-shooting, now that i think of it - remember how you pistol killed mancubi and cacos from behind decorations and chaingunners by shooting their barely-visible-behind-a-corner shoulders?
Shall I list the ways that DoomRL isn't like Doom already? Not even including the ways they can't/shouldn't be similar:
- Weapons have clips
- Inventory for holding ammo rather than set numbers
- Items that the player can pick up
- Field of vision limited beyond an entire room
- Enemies can run out of ammo
- Enemies take splash damage from their own attacks
- No monster infighting
- No monster flinching
I can go on, but you get the point. It's a different game, one that should certainly give the player a feel for the original Doom...but it shouldn't be forced to accept the same exploits that the original game held. I mean, the fact that they're two entirely different genres should be a red flag for that idea. Hell, I can think of two things right now that succeed at making the game environmentally similar while easing up the difficulty:
- Arch-vile attacks are "charged" and take at least two seconds to work (with a notification that you're being targeted in the form of that yellow ring). Balanced by increasing the damage to 11d2 instead of 11d1.
- Revenant missiles should not home in 100% of the time, more like 50%. Doesn't need balancing, the missile is already ridiculous enough as is.
That said, I believe Kornel should be removing whatever is an abuse (by either party) that simply doesn't make sense unless considered from a hard-coded perspective.
To put it another way, these 'abuses' make the game fun. Without it, doomrl would just be a mind-numbing excersive in walking around and pressing the 'f' key, with little thought behind it.
Nor is the game all that finished by any form of the word. While the basics are there and a lot has been added, there is an enormous capacity for the game to change. I imagine that there a lot of ideas floating around in development for DoomRL 2, but if there's one thing that should be polished to a brilliant shine in DoomRL, it's the in-game combat system. We should be doing everything we can to at least TRY new things, then take a look and see how well those things work.
Tl;dr version: exploits need to be fixed, for easier or for harder, and I don't think Kornel would leave us hanging with a game too difficult to play.
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Now, I do not give a damm about corner shooting, I do not utilize it.
But, allow me to say one thing.
Giftdropping MUST STAY!
It was already nerfed in .9.9, and now is perfectly balanced. Removing it would only make AoB much more irksome, especially for such fanatics as me, who try to get 100% kills in it. Irksome, or worse, undoable.
Please, do not "fix" giftdropping.
Please.
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Let's not forget that the removal of any of these abuses will likely be countered by some other balance that will keep the game playable. I agree that the game is still a little harder than it should be, but a lot of its difficulty comes from the opposite end of player exploits: that is, enemy exploits. Most of these are intentional right now, but several could get a toned-down treatment. For instance, I totally avoided mentioning formers in the last post, but their AI is certainly the most ridiculous (as underscored by commandos), such that there are situations where I know with about 95% certainty that I will not survive peeking out from a wall, nor will I ever hope to corner-shoot him. I'm not going to go on (it's for another thread, surely) but I'd rather the game get harder before getting easier...given that I play on UV/N! regularly (with UV always feeling a lot easier, even if it's not often a win) we could handle removing the exploits that only experienced players use anyway.
Shall I list the ways that DoomRL isn't like Doom already? Not even including the ways they can't/shouldn't be similar:
- Weapons have clips
- Inventory for holding ammo rather than set numbers
- Items that the player can pick up
- Field of vision limited beyond an entire room
- Enemies can run out of ammo
- Enemies take splash damage from their own attacks
- No monster infighting
- No monster flinching
I can go on, but you get the point. It's a different game, one that should certainly give the player a feel for the original Doom...but it shouldn't be forced to accept the same exploits that the original game held. I mean, the fact that they're two entirely different genres should be a red flag for that idea. Hell, I can think of two things right now that succeed at making the game environmentally similar while easing up the difficulty:
- Arch-vile attacks are "charged" and take at least two seconds to work (with a notification that you're being targeted in the form of that yellow ring). Balanced by increasing the damage to 11d2 instead of 11d1.
- Revenant missiles should not home in 100% of the time, more like 50%. Doesn't need balancing, the missile is already ridiculous enough as is.
That said, I believe Kornel should be removing whatever is an abuse (by either party) that simply doesn't make sense unless considered from a hard-coded perspective.
Nor is the game all that finished by any form of the word. While the basics are there and a lot has been added, there is an enormous capacity for the game to change. I imagine that there a lot of ideas floating around in development for DoomRL 2, but if there's one thing that should be polished to a brilliant shine in DoomRL, it's the in-game combat system. We should be doing everything we can to at least TRY new things, then take a look and see how well those things work.
Tl;dr version: exploits need to be fixed, for easier or for harder, and I don't think Kornel would leave us hanging with a game too difficult to play.
Please don't miss the critical context of my post - the idea of the game getting 'harder', 'easier', or 'more/less balanced' by the removal of abuse is something that can be easily fixed, and isn't an issue.
The problem with removing corner shooting and giftdropping, whether the game is rebalanced or not, is that it takes out *tactics*.
For example, let's say the game removed giftdropping and cornershooting, but gave doomguy twice as much health... It's still just as hard/easy, but the removal of the 'abuses' makes it a much more boring game. I'd rather have to think tactics to play doomrl than just manage my inventory to victory.
Put another way, try to ellaborate on what 'fun' would be added to the game by the removal of giftdroping and corner shooting.
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I don't feel that giftdropping _needs_ to be removed, but I hope it never becomes necessary.
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The problem with removing corner shooting and giftdropping, whether the game is rebalanced or not, is that it takes out *tactics*.
Well, it would take out some of the tactics. Let me be clear: I do not believe that corner-shooting should be removed ENTIRELY, just that being able to do it with a combat shotgun as well as you can is a little too powerful. Nevertheless, it's certainly a legitimate tactic as addressed previously. The fact that there are one-way shots and the like are bugs more than they are exploits, and should be fixed appropriately.
Gift-dropping, on the other hand, lacks the plausibility of an actual game tactic. Certain enemies like to pick up things, yes, and they will prioritize items they see over just about anything other than attacking the player, that's also true. By using these facts, one can determine an exploit that allows the player to lure enemies into melee distance by dropping an innocent-looking item into their view (without being in view the player). In short, it's an accidental consequence of the way the game is programmed. It's the equivalent of keeping in the blind spot of an enemy that, for the purposes of the game, shouldn't exist, or figuring out a way to carry more in your inventory by picking up items in some sequence. Gift-dropping abuses the simplicity of monster AI, something that makes little sense (if any) within the confines of DoomRL.
Put another way, try to ellaborate on what 'fun' would be added to the game by the removal of giftdroping and corner shooting.
Tactics that feel abusive aren't fun at all, and such is the case of gift-dropping for me. Let me give a concrete example.
On the Phobos Base Entry, half the time the map is generated such that the Sergeant guarding the stairs is a nice three or four tiles from reach, making it nearly impossible to approach him in AoB. The answer to this problem is a simple case of gift-dropping. The fact that there is no variation nor alternative to this approach bothers me: gift-dropping here isn't a tactic, it's a necessity. If I had the options of ranged weapons, I could use the pistol or shotgun (in UV/N!), and either attack while hugging the opposite wall or corner-shoot. Each has pros and cons, and over time one usually picks one over the other. One option may even BE better than the other, but at least the gamer has choices; that you have to use gift-dropping or face certain doom in the melee's scenario tells me that there's a problem.
I agree with you, Sylph, that balancing a system should not tamper with the originality and innovations that people come to like. What I do not like about gift-dropping is that it seems like the gamer's workaround based on the tools they have. Honestly, I'd like to think this game can handle better tactics.
In my first post, I suggested an alternative to gift-dropping in the form of noise-luring. At the very least, this existed in Doom and was an important part of the game, so it's reasonable to consider inclusion in DoomRL. The basic idea is that anything that can create noise (guns, barrels, screams during death) alerts enemies to that location, although they get bored after a while and will return to their normal movements. In Doom, pretty much attacking at all caused this noise, but it can be more creative here (varying by location, noise level, etc). To apply to AoB, consider that throwing a knife into a wall may make enough noise to lure enemies to you, and a chainsaw would certainly make enough noise (hell, introduce a "rev" alt fire to make sure it can always be used).
Sure, this is a whole new system and may take a lot of time to implement, but I believe it's a vastly superior tactic to gift-dropping. It can help a player greatly (such as in AoB) but also create problems, turning it into a significant part of the game that forces the player to play carefully and thoughtfully. In contrast, gift-dropping is some small quirk that can be done as the result of a loophole in enemy AI, a no-risk high-reward tactic in many cases.
I have only limited experience with gift-dropping, however, so I may be judging its ability unfairly. If you can explain why there is no alternative fix (in the form of a NEW tactic, such as the one aforementioned), I would definitely reconsider. In fact, I agree that, as long as there isn't a tactical replacement for gift-dropping, we shouldn't remove it. Ultimately, however, it's rather limited and the game should improve on its tactical capabilities.
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I do have a lot of experience with giftdropping on AoB, though, and I believe that removing it would remove a very major piece of the play.
This tactic was strongly nerfed with .9.9 release, and now is more or less perfect, as well as essential for surviving the first few floors of the base, becoming more and more obsolete and unneeded as the DoomGuy gather traits and equipment. Without it, AoB would still be possible to complete, however it would become much more luck-based (ie. you are screwed if you get sergeants spawning in long corridors or spacious rooms), and as such, much more irritating.
And now giftdropping still requires a certain skill and, more or less often, a bit of sacrifice. As most of the enemies are lured only by consumables (since green armor on early level is often picked by them beforehand), you sometimes need to risk loosing very valuable med packs to survive.
And it is perfect. Giftdropping is part of AoB, as much as Berserker trait and Longinus Spear, and placing some sort of "sound system" in it's place would not only make the game needlessly complicated but also annoying for people who play with sound turned off (like me).
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A few more suspicious results I've found that strike me as exploitable:
- You cannot miss a barrel, including one that's beyond your line of sight. Been doing it quite a bit when a get Computer Map in pistol or rapid-fire runs, since it's the one thing I can absolutely expect to hit in the fog of war.
- Assault shotgun fully reloads from one step, which is to say all six shells. You can REALLY cut back on reloading times this way after some movement speed bonuses.
- Lost Souls attack pathing is rather limited, such that you can position yourself (while running away) to be attacked by only one Lost Soul at a time. If they're trying to hit you but cannot move, they should float around a bit to the sides (like in the game) and try again. (Although technically, Lost Souls should only fly in lines, but whatever.)
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I guess this isn't really what's abusable, just what's a little too good in the game.
#1 Cut Ammo-chain down to 1/2 ammo consumption (on chainfire or for any fire of a "rapid-fire" weapon depending on what works). Makes ammo a LOT easier to conserve for plasma rifle/chaingun but still makes it worthwhile managing ammo/supplies (which is a big bit of the game). Plasma isn't just for the BFG.
#2 Make Juggler trait cost 0.20-0.30 seconds to switch weapons. Still very powerful and quick, just not instant. I've made too many stupid mistakes that Juggler has gotten me out of. I've based entire builds out of instant weapon switch. Its too good. Especially for two levels of experience.
#3 Make Juggler trait come off the Reloader trait. Reloader is under-used, very few master traits have a stop on it, and it lowers the "too-damn-synergystic-for-its-own-good" thing that an Ammochain build has going for it. (or two extra levels of schmuk to get it).
#4 Perhaps make Shottyman come off the Ironman trait. Makes a psuedo-shotty build possible with virtually any master-trait build (although it may make Army of the Dead a little to "tanky"). Shotguns are still crappy vs armour, but most people will take a level or two of Ironman near end-game. Just stops shotguns being "only early game" weapons without AotD.
If Juggler was "Reloader 2" and Shottyman an "Ironman 1" trait, and have AotD coming off Juggler (and Bad Ass), then with the above mentioned changes I think a lot of quirks and imbalances of the game would be ironed out. Perhaps. An alpha, beta, gamma or delta question I guess.
Just my thoughts. they might not be the best. We don't even have two cent coins in Australia. We round those kind of thoughts to the nearest five cents.
My 0c (nothing)
Sambojin.
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...
Just my thoughts. they might not be the best. We don't even have two cent coins in Australia. We round those kind of thoughts to the nearest five cents.
My 0c (nothing)
Sambojin.
I actually have in my possession 2x 1cent Australian coins from before the currency change. And yes, I save them for this specific purpose.
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I have a few 2c and 1c coins. And strangely enough a couple of $2 notes (and some paper others, who knows what the economy will get up to, my superannuation went backwards in a huge time of prosperity, I may need my $2 to make a point some time).
In the sandbox that is my own little head I think I've realized Shottyman should be an "Ironman 2" trait, not 1. Saves it being the new "go-to" trait.
Another piece of non-existent copper.
Sambojin.
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It seems like most people agree that gift dropping and corner shooting are the most common abuses the player can use, but no one has said anything about the abuses the game uses. Think of DoomRL as a two player game, one person vs one computer. The player's abuses can definitely give the player slight advantage, but no abuse will win the game outright (unless there is one I'm forgetting). Unfortunately on the computer's side of things, most of its 'abuses' range from powerful to game ending (a win outright for the computer). In no particular order here are some of the things the game does that might be abusive.
Acid/Lava rooms - Slight abuse - Pulling a lever that fills the floor with a painful liquid can kill a lot of players who aren't prepared. Sure it has a tiny amount of offensive use, but unless you have an enviro-suit you'll probably die too. The simple solution is to never pull a lever with a character you are trying to win with.
Starting the player in a room full of lost souls - Moderate abuse - We've all lost low level characters by entering a level to be surrounded by lost souls. Often times the player never had a chance (especially on dlevel 2 or a challenge game). The player can't take actions to avoid this fate.
Using the largest Phobos Base for the dlevel 1 - Moderate abuse - I'm only calling this moderate because it really only applies to N!/challenge games, but starting the player with the level layout that is a large rectangular base pretty much means the character should just quit and start over. The starting two shotgunners generally are placed in such a way that even gift dropping can't get you in the building without taking a good amount of damage. It feels pointless to leave that starting level with no medpacks and 20% health, but it often happens on this level. If you are okay with start scumming for characters (which I'm not) then this isn't a problem, but if you play every doomguy like he's your last, it gets annoying quickly.
Early acid bottlenecks - Moderate abuse - Placing the player/stairs in such a way that the player must traverse over a large acid area to get to the stairs can be almost as good as killing them. Best case scenario the player spends some resources, worst case it happens dlevel 2 or 3 before you have what it takes to get across. I'm only calling this moderate because sometimes a well pushed barrel or two can open up a different path and after the first few levels the player should be able to deal with it somehow anyways.
Arachnatron caves - Major Abuse - I can't even count how many promising characters I've lost to 'unwinnable' arachnatron caves. Being spawned in an open area in sight of 4-6 arachnatrons usually means death. Sometimes you get lucky and can see the stairs, or are off to a side with the stairs near, but most of the time if you aren't invulnerable while entering the level, you're going to die, even with Tanx3. Phase devices can sometimes help, but when the mobs around you can damage 75% of your health in one turn, no amount of medpacks will save you. If you need to heal every turn so you can survive the next volley, you'll never walk anywhere. I'm not saying the arachnatron caves should be removed, but it'd be nice if something changed.
Berserker bug - Abuse - Obviously this is known about and a bug, but it still makes me sad whenever it happens. If you stop berserking late game in melee, you are as good as dead since with the chainsaw or spear, most mobs will be dying in one hit. A berserk from a death is a bad berserk, so it's much harder late game to trigger a good berserk without finding a globe first.
Maybe I'm biased because 95% of my games are N! challenges, but a lot of times I feel like I'm playing against the RNG and not against the game itself. I'm all for removing player abuses, as long as they don't need them to counter act the RNG abuses.
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Using the largest Phobos Base for the dlevel 1 - Moderate abuse - I'm only calling this moderate because it really only applies to N!/challenge games, but starting the player with the level layout that is a large rectangular base pretty much means the character should just quit and start over. The starting two shotgunners generally are placed in such a way that even gift dropping can't get you in the building without taking a good amount of damage. It feels pointless to leave that starting level with no medpacks and 20% health, but it often happens on this level. If you are okay with start scumming for characters (which I'm not) then this isn't a problem, but if you play every doomguy like he's your last, it gets annoying quickly.
...This is actually one of the most wished level outlays as a starter level for any other challenge than meelee. The enemies are so easily put on this, just go up the level, take out the one shotgunner of the above setting and then the one below with the shotgun you loot, this is also very to kill the rest of the formers and the ending shotgunner can't suprise meatshot you.
However in meelee game, this level is pure hell and I usualy just suicide in AoB or meelee games if this is my starter level.
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Firing weapons that use weird firing mechanics like the Angel Arm "reload". This allows the use of angel arm in challenges which restrict weapon type.
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Firing weapons that use weird firing mechanics like the Angel Arm "reload". This allows the use of angel arm in challenges which restrict weapon type.
yes, and that also makes the Trigun and Beretta behave oddly with dualreload / Gun Kata. making their "specials" not "reloads" would kill two birds with one stone.
I feel that the nuclear weapons are less abusive since they self-destruct and thermonuclear bombs are generally allowed anyway, but they could be changed too for consistency.
edit: on second thought, just making all of those special actions use the alt-fire instead of alt-reload (replacing their current alt-fires, thus also making them more different from the normal weapons) might work. it would prevent use in weapon-related challenges, since you can't fire them.
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The Mortuary. Now that corpses can be destroyed you can just walk in, shoot the BFG and the level is mostly cleared. It's pretty disappointing though being able to destroy corpses is generally a good idea.
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I'm going to say the "Intuition Trick". With the intuition perk you can kill things out of your LOS and they won't move. They just stand there and die.
Intution is a better perk than Cateye.