Chaosforge Forum

General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Trar on January 27, 2015, 14:34

Title: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on January 27, 2015, 14:34
You're probably aware that TotalBiscuit is one of the names that can be automatically used if you don't enter a name for your character. I'm not aware as to why; although I seem to remember him doing a video or two on the game, I can't find said video(s).

I think his name should be removed from the automatic name list for the reasons outlined in this Gamasutra blog (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/DavidGallant/20150126/234930/For_the_Sake_of_the_Industry_No_More_TotalBiscuit.php) by David Gallant. Basically, he's aiding and profiting off of sexist harassment in gaming and is actively promoting regressive, abusive viewpoints. It's for this reason that I hate to think his name is in DoomRL.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on January 27, 2015, 17:31
I don't think this is up for discussion though.  It's a decision that only Kornel can make -- it's his game after all.

I am less concerned about the politics behind and more concerned about gameplay, which of course OP's request doesn't really affect.  In other words, I personally don't care much if the name is in or out, but to formally take it out will be up to Kornel's call, since it is a political thing and he probably needs to weigh in more on that than I.

Of course one of the ramifications from this is that it sets a precedent where we start lopping stuff off of DoomRL (or any ChaosForge game for that matter) when things we put in start to offend people (e.g. Carmack did something and many people don't like it -- does it mean we have to remove him as The Final Boss?; or the whole Hellish imagery present with DoomRL -- must we change them to something else?).  I am not sure if that's a healthy outcome to have.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 27, 2015, 22:02
I'll admit that I only briefly skimmed over the article, but at what I got from the glance it looks to me as Internet Drama 101. Maybe there is something to that, maybe there isn't, but I feel that trying to determine if there is substance enough to claims in the post, would require more effort that a sane man should put towards shit like that.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on January 28, 2015, 10:14
I don't think this is up for discussion though.  It's a decision that only Kornel can make -- it's his game after all.

I am less concerned about the politics behind and more concerned about gameplay, which of course OP's request doesn't really affect.  In other words, I personally don't care much if the name is in or out, but to formally take it out will be up to Kornel's call, since it is a political thing and he probably needs to weigh in more on that than I.

Of course one of the ramifications from this is that it sets a precedent where we start lopping stuff off of DoomRL (or any ChaosForge game for that matter) when things we put in start to offend people (e.g. Carmack did something and many people don't like it -- does it mean we have to remove him as The Final Boss?; or the whole Hellish imagery present with DoomRL -- must we change them to something else?).  I am not sure if that's a healthy outcome to have.

I'm less worried about 'setting bad precedent' and more with the fact that TB has demonstrably proved himself to be toxic. The chances that John Carmack will start acting the same are practically zero, and removing one name from a list will have much less of an effect than removing every trace of Hell from the game. Even if Carmack did start acting this way, he's still one of the creators of Doom. That would be enough to justify him remaining in the game. Regardless, you're right in that it is Kornel's decision.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll admit that I only briefly skimmed over the article, but at what I got from the glance it looks to me as Internet Drama 101. Maybe there is something to that, maybe there isn't, but I feel that trying to determine if there is substance enough to claims in the post, would require more effort that a sane man should put towards shit like that.

I'm pretty sure these things are both relatively easy to discern from his public social media and videos, and important enough to do so if you have millions of people reading, watching and absorbing his viewpoints.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 28, 2015, 11:01
Thing is you claim TB is "toxic". You use the article linked as proof, but... it's one point of view. Throwing the thing into google you can get other, dissenting points like here (http://theralphretort.com/gamasutra-nutcase-david-gallant-lauches-pitiful-attack-on-totalbiscuit-0126015/) for example (just a random one that came up). There are probably more sites that would support your claim, and more that would go against it. The point is that unless you're willing to dig deep down to the root of the goddamn thing - which would mean finding the original posts, videos and what not (which would probably mean also learning about the whole GamerGate SNAFU that thankfully blown over the parts of internet I frequent), the only way to decide on whom you trust is to flip a fucking coin.

Also, that aside let me tell you a small story, a comparison of sorts that came to my mind when mulling over the situation during the day. Here in Poland is a man called Jurek Owsiak. That man is known for one thing: every year for 23 years now he throws a big fucking charity event, one which gathers millions, usually despite the influential people in the country shitting on him, which then are spent on buying much needed medical equipment for hospitals through the country. There is also another man, Piotr Ikonowicz. He's a politician, but unlike most of that lot he doesn't keep his head stuck up his own ass and instead of growing fat of off people's taxes he prefers to spend his time running an office dedicated to people in need. So essentially two great chaps, right?
Well this year somewhere during or after the event he runs Owsiak spoke some rather stupid stuff on what should be done with how polish medicine functions. In reaction to that Iknowicz, in a column he runs in a newspaper I read, started to throw mud at Owsiak, all while beating his chest like a primate over how what he does for people is better.
So what should I do then? One could say both of these gentelmen went "toxic" so should I scoff and disavov them? Refuse to support Owsiak's charity event, ignore Iknowicz even though he's one of few politicians that seem to care about people?
I say no. And you know why? Because, at the end of the day both of these men are just human. And that means that they're prone to having faults, and no matter what they do they might have some stupid opinions too. But at the end of the day, what they do is worth more good than their occassional fuck-up does evil.

"But Malek", I hear you say, "surely you can't compare making video game reviews to helping hospitals and people in general". Well true, what TB does is nowhere near that. But even so he does provide a valuable service: in this day where developers forgot what a demo is, where so called game journalism seems largely riding the hype train, TB is a surprisingly solid source of information on new releases. Each one he reviews is given a fair amount of time, with as much relevant information provided as his first-impressions format allows. He isn't afraid to rip a bad product or company a new one. And he tends to bring up good indie titles a lot, and they need all the press they can get, to not be drowned out by AAA companies with their megabucks advertising. And that, in my opinion has value. That is good. We gamers need stuff like that to make educated decisions on what to buy or not to buy. And in my opinion that's enough to overlook the occassional fuck up, assuming what the originally linked blog says is true. Because John Bain, as influential he might be, is still human and thus allowed to make errors, including errors of judgment.

And frankly fuck it, when I go to view one of his vids I'm interested in the title he's reviewing, not in what his opinions on subject X is. On anything else I can make my mind up on my own.

That's my $0.02 on the subject, please excuse if it's difficult to read - tends to happen when I start writing a longer post.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Tavana on January 28, 2015, 12:54
That's my $0.02 on the subject, please excuse if it's difficult to read - tends to happen when I start writing a longer post.

All the blood in your alcohol system probably doesn't help, either.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Malek Deneith on January 28, 2015, 13:04
All the blood in your alcohol system probably doesn't help, either.
To put it in Discworld terms I'm probably at least half a drink below par.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on January 28, 2015, 15:49
To put it in Discworld terms I'm probably at least half a drink below par.
Wait, why are you drinking blood again?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on January 28, 2015, 19:52
Thing is you claim TB is "toxic". You use the article linked as proof, but... it's one point of view. Throwing the thing into google you can get other, dissenting points like here (http://theralphretort.com/gamasutra-nutcase-david-gallant-lauches-pitiful-attack-on-totalbiscuit-0126015/) for example (just a random one that came up). There are probably more sites that would support your claim, and more that would go against it. The point is that unless you're willing to dig deep down to the root of the goddamn thing - which would mean finding the original posts, videos and what not (which would probably mean also learning about the whole GamerGate SNAFU that thankfully blown over the parts of internet I frequent), the only way to decide on whom you trust is to flip a fucking coin.

That website pretty clearly supports GamerGate, and its existence doesn't mean there's moral or especially numerical equivalency to both sides of the issue. As for what GamerGate is, you can read this (http://deathofgamergate.tumblr.com/) for the origin, & this (https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate), this (https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate) and this for good measure (https://medium.com/@FoldableHuman/the-mods-are-always-asleep-7f750f879fc) for the 'root of the thing' investigation. That last link by the way contains disturbing (not explicit, but quite disturbing) evidence of one of the home bases of GamerGate being a child pornography site.

Also, that aside let me tell you a small story, a comparison of sorts that came to my mind when mulling over the situation during the day. Here in Poland is a man called Jurek Owsiak. That man is known for one thing: every year for 23 years now he throws a big fucking charity event, one which gathers millions, usually despite the influential people in the country shitting on him, which then are spent on buying much needed medical equipment for hospitals through the country. There is also another man, Piotr Ikonowicz. He's a politician, but unlike most of that lot he doesn't keep his head stuck up his own ass and instead of growing fat of off people's taxes he prefers to spend his time running an office dedicated to people in need. So essentially two great chaps, right?
Well this year somewhere during or after the event he runs Owsiak spoke some rather stupid stuff on what should be done with how polish medicine functions. In reaction to that Iknowicz, in a column he runs in a newspaper I read, started to throw mud at Owsiak, all while beating his chest like a primate over how what he does for people is better.
So what should I do then? One could say both of these gentelmen went "toxic" so should I scoff and disavov them? Refuse to support Owsiak's charity event, ignore Iknowicz even though he's one of few politicians that seem to care about people?
I say no. And you know why? Because, at the end of the day both of these men are just human. And that means that they're prone to having faults, and no matter what they do they might have some stupid opinions too. But at the end of the day, what they do is worth more good than their occassional fuck-up does evil.

Two otherwise decent politicians having a row isn't exactly the same as a person being consistently undecent. Maybe TB was alright in the past, but the fact is that he's decidedly much less so now.

"But Malek", I hear you say, "surely you can't compare making video game reviews to helping hospitals and people in general". Well true, what TB does is nowhere near that. But even so he does provide a valuable service: in this day where developers forgot what a demo is, where so called game journalism seems largely riding the hype train, TB is a surprisingly solid source of information on new releases. Each one he reviews is given a fair amount of time, with as much relevant information provided as his first-impressions format allows. He isn't afraid to rip a bad product or company a new one. And he tends to bring up good indie titles a lot, and they need all the press they can get, to not be drowned out by AAA companies with their megabucks advertising. And that, in my opinion has value. That is good. We gamers need stuff like that to make educated decisions on what to buy or not to buy. And in my opinion that's enough to overlook the occassional fuck up, assuming what the originally linked blog says is true. Because John Bain, as influential he might be, is still human and thus allowed to make errors, including errors of judgment.

I agree, gaming journalism needs some better work being done. I'm fine with the concept of him looking at various games and giving his honest opinion. But I would classify the bad things he's done as more than an occasional screw-up. Mind you, the list in my link was of actions he did within the past five or so months alone, and it seems to indicate that he's, again, actively supporting and courting GamerGate because it's turning out good for him and because he seems to agree with it enough to do so. If you're thinking that isn't so bad, please read the pages I linked to at the beginning of this post. I'm giving them to you in good faith so that you can see for yourself that others have done the muckraking, the investigating, and you can indeed easily see what they're up to and make up your mind about it.

And if there's a majority of articles, opinions and evidence against GamerGate containing things such as sustained harassment of women and defense of child pornography, that might just be an indication of problems with GamerGate. Or that GamerGate is just made up entirely of problems, but I digress.

And frankly fuck it, when I go to view one of his vids I'm interested in the title he's reviewing, not in what his opinions on subject X is. On anything else I can make my mind up on my own.

That's fair enough, but consider that his opinions might influence what you see of the title, and what he might do regarding that title. To say nothing of what others take away from listening to his opinion, or what he does at a wider level.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on January 28, 2015, 20:12
Alright, that's enough from both of you.  I did warn that this request is not up for discussion.  Kornel will decide what to do about the request.

I'm locking this thread for now.

As for the debate on the nature of TotalBiscuit vis a vis gaming journalism and what-not, take it to the Off-Topic board.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 29, 2015, 00:37
Moved to off-topic on thelaptop's request.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Bloax on January 29, 2015, 03:50
You do realize that TotalBiscuit being pro-GG automatically means that he will be shitted on by the contra-GG side, right?

And that this article is doing exactly that.

I would also very much like to see where he profits off sexual harassment, that certainly sounds quite interesting.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Tormuse on January 29, 2015, 12:38
Hey Trar, I didn't realize that you're so interested in social justice issues.  I think that's kinda cool.  Keep fighting the good fight.  :)

As for the issue, the other question is, "would anyone even be bothered if we got rid of the name, Total Biscuit?"  It seems like it would be a simple enough change and there are plenty of other names on the list.  (Disclaimer: this is coming from someone who never uses random names)
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: emulord on January 29, 2015, 13:24
I for one had no idea it was a real person, I just thought it was a easter egg type thing. Although replacing all the names to the format Big McLargeHuge like Mystery Science Theater 3000 would be good.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on January 29, 2015, 17:01
You do realize that TotalBiscuit being pro-GG automatically means that he will be shitted on by the contra-GG side, right?

And that this article is doing exactly that.

If all he did was say he supported GG, maybe it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But that article lists the many other, stronger pro-GG things he's done. That still doesn't mean both sides are somehow equal.

I would also very much like to see where he profits off sexual harassment, that certainly sounds quite interesting.

It's swelling his viewerbase with the GGers. He makes money off of his YouTube channel.

@emulord: I thought so too when I first saw the name.

@Tormuse: No prob. It wouldn't be hard at all I don't think, but it is still ultimately up to Kornel. I would be pleased if he did and I know that many others who play the game or who might play it in future will be pleased as well.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Equality on January 29, 2015, 22:27
As for me I don't know WHO are the Total Bisquit. But it is a nice nickname and why not use such in game by random? Funny.
What happens with you, Trar? You start a new game as a "Total Bisquit" and lose? :D
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: ParaSait on January 30, 2015, 00:46
Eww, it smells like feminazism in here.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Thomas on January 30, 2015, 11:03
Eww, it smells like feminazism in here.

Are you fucking kidding.


If there's some way to put up a silent hotfix for the current version then that could be good just as a personal statement against him. It's probably not worth too much effort beyond that because the current version of DoomRL is already out there and will get maybe 1000 more downloads in its lifetime. But don't endorse him any more, yep, got it.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Tormuse on January 30, 2015, 12:13
Eww, it smells like feminazism in here.

Parasait, I don't know what your experience with feminism is that you would demean it by calling it "feminazism," but the feminist movement is still a much-needed force in society.  There's a lot of misinformation about feminism out there, but at its core, feminism is about getting men and women equal treatment by society.  Personally, I think that's a good thing.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Uranium on January 30, 2015, 16:58
Parasait, I don't know what your experience with feminism is that you would demean it by calling it "feminazism," but the feminist movement is still a much-needed force in society.  There's a lot of misinformation about feminism out there, but at its core, feminism is about getting men and women equal treatment by society.  Personally, I think that's a good thing.
I don't think ParaSait is aiming to demean the feminist movement as a whole, I think by 'feminazism' he means only certain parts of said movement that he believes go "over the top" in their pursuit of "social justice". Not that I intend to speak for ParaSait, just what I gleaned from his post.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on February 01, 2015, 20:50
I don't think ParaSait is aiming to demean the feminist movement as a whole, I think by 'feminazism' he means only certain parts of said movement that he believes go "over the top" in their pursuit of "social justice". Not that I intend to speak for ParaSait, just what I gleaned from his post.

I don't consider my request over the top or unreasonable. Seems like it would be pretty easy, matter of fact. I'd even wait for 0.9.9.8 to come out.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Equality on February 01, 2015, 22:50
It is a BAD thing try to change history. If some man make a gift or do something (good?) that memorized him any way IMHO we can't delete him from history even if hi later become a terrorist and kill dosens of citizens. No. Claim him any way but not change in the past. we are not in Orwell's "1984".
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: MaiZure on February 02, 2015, 03:12
I'd even wait for 0.9.9.8 to come out.

Deal - we're done here.

Moderator, do your thing!
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sylph on February 02, 2015, 04:41
Personally, I don't think TBs name should be removed from the game at all. I think he's actually a good voice from the GG side of the fence. He's one of the few people who align themselves with gamergate without making it all confrontational, and in a public dispute these are always the people you should try to reason with. Making a social effort to delete his presence and acheivements in the gaming industry based solely on his gamergate affiliation will only serve to make the gamergaters feel that they are the targets of injustice and prejudice.

Also, months ago I did as you suggested here and tried to look into the 'roots' of some of the accusations about TB. It was during a discussion about his anti-transexual opinions, where I was finally directed to a video of him playing 'papers please'. In the video, he was confronted with a customer that looked like a guy in the picture, but had 'female' on their passport, and TB claimed that it could have been a transexual. There's no anti-trans message in what he said at all, he simply gave a light-hearted take on the fact that it's pretty hard to discern details from 8-bit inspired 2-colour graphics. I concluded at the time that it was people trying so hard to find fault that it felt borderline dishonest. I'm not very inclined to go all private-eye again to waste even more time on someone else's dispute, and I think to encourage people to do so encourages the unhealthy herd mentality that is the root cause of discimination, rascism, sexism and homophobia.

For the most part, people who affiliate themselves with gamergate *do* tend to be overprivileged guys. They tend to be people so unaffected by negative discrimination, they don't even have a real-world compass guideline of what discrimination is, and so they approach the argument with 'if A then why not B' type arguments that work fine in some theoretical utopia. Being, like most old school computer gamers, a little on the autistic side of normal, I can completely understand their confusion about positive discrimination or how female characters or industry personalities have to be treated differently to male personalities. There was a lot of nonsense in a community I was an active player in when a male pro-gamer said before a match that he was going to 'rape' a female pro-gamer, the same way he'd use the word against a male opponent, and was surprised at being evicted from the tournament for it. Personally, considering english isn't even close to a native language for him, I saw his punishment as an overreaction, but I saw the GG reaction to his punishment as laden with hate speech... This is how these things escalate, by each side of the argument being completely rash and binary about it's opinions. Each side being completely unwilling to accept even the possibility that there can be any good coming from the other side of the argument.

Malek - I totally admired what you posted, particularly:
Quote
at the end of the day both of these men are just human. And that means that they're prone to having faults, and no matter what they do they might have some stupid opinions too. But at the end of the day, what they do is worth more good than their occassional fuck-up does evil.
i think that sums the issue up quite well. I'd only add that I've always been the voice of temperance, and while I find the whole gamergate movement abhorrent, there exists within it a significant proportion of level-headed, logical, smart guys, that need only be educated on how treating people fairly is not treating them the same. Removing the most socially aware of them from your community, even trying to re-write history to exclude them, is only going to do damage to gaming journalism, cause further divides between the two sides of the debate, and justify the extreme views that circulate on the other side of the fence.

I think that, despite his GG affiliation, TB is a good guy, introduced a lot of people to doomrl, and doesn't deserve his name deleted from the history of this game over a completely unrelated drama on an unrelated gaming blog.

~Sylph


ps. Feminazism is flame-bait. Parasait, you should find a better word to use, as that one, despite being used with perhaps honest intentions, is pretty steeped in sexism these days, and should probably be avoided.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: ParaSait on February 02, 2015, 16:19
I have my opinions about feminism... now that being said, I don't mean to oil any fire. I just wanna say that I see modern feminism as a negative influence that seems to be slowly spreading itself into every aspect of culture, and I wanted to express a mild (if admittedly snarky) disappointment that some of it is even creeping into one of my favorite games of all time.
I'm sure Trar made this thread with the best intentions in the world. But in my view, the symbolism of it comes off as an attempt at contributing to the erasure of a person who expresses opinions counter to feminism. I think the things that that article accuses TB of are grossly exaggerated and I've been searching for some concrete sources, but I don't find anything in particular. Maybe I just fail to see all the horrible abuse going on through feminist glasses...
To me these practices (I mean in general, the whole thing with poisoning someone's reputation for their opinions) just seems kind of louche. Then again, it's just a random name, I don't use random names anyway, so whatever. I just feel mildly disappointed.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sylph on February 02, 2015, 18:08
I see your standpoint, I can even agree with a lot of it (although sexism in gaming culture *is* absolutely rife, and it can be a suddenly very hostile environment at a moment's notice). I just think you'd serve your standpoint a lot better, and sound a lot more educated on the matter, if you exchanged the word 'feminazism' for 'third wave radical feminism'. The former sounds like you want a snarky argument. The latter is both specific, and makes it sound like you not only know what you're talking about, but also recognise the difference between giving women the vote, giving women equal human rights, and splitting hairs over female representation in society. ;)
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: ParaSait on February 03, 2015, 05:37
Well, honestly I don't respect third-wave feminism at all, so I ain't giving it more credit than I find is due. I just hoped a quick sarcastic one-liner wouldn't hurt more than it's actually worth, but apparently this topic is actually that touchy. Had I known, I wouldn't even have posted at all, since I don't care enough to argue over it.
So, as such, I will now withdraw from here and continue to mind my own business...
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Tormuse on February 04, 2015, 02:38
Parasait, you're welcome to participate in the discussion as much or as little as you like.  What I'm curious about is what bad thing you think feminism has done or is doing?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: emulord on February 04, 2015, 12:54
For the same reason you don't solve racism through affirmative action. You stamp out racism whenever you can and treat everyone as equals. Third wave feminism seems to bash all men based on negative actions of some men. The fact that sexual harassment is already illegal and frowned on doesn't seem to matter to them. The fact that it exists anywhere at all gives them moral high ground for special treatment in their eyes.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: slave on February 05, 2015, 09:13
Please avoid hostility and witch hunts.

Thank you.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on February 10, 2015, 19:58
I wouldn't say that one example Sylph posted makes TB transphobic, but there's a litany of other things that make him problematic. I'll also say that affirmative action exists because there is still enough subdued racial bias on society that if it weren't in effect, we wouldn't see as many minorities in higher education.

I can see why you'd say that "both sides are bad", Sylph. But if one side's using smoke and mirrors to justify abusing women in gaming, calling SWAT teams to peoples' houses to further that abuse and defending child pornography because the main website they use happens to host it, as is explicitly documented in the links I posted...I can see why the anti-GG side might get a little terse.

I mean at this point there isn't a 'rational side' to GG. It's always been a front for abuse. The only people in GG who cared about anything other than that are the young gamers they hoodwinked to be their foot soldiers to spam Twitter, and almost all of them are gone now. This is all conclusively documented earlier in links earlier in the thread, no sleuthing required other than navigating to Page 1. For TB to still support them at this point, as opposed to merely supporting honest journalism, is dishonest.

It is a BAD thing try to change history. If some man make a gift or do something (good?) that memorized him any way IMHO we can't delete him from history even if hi later become a terrorist and kill dosens of citizens. No. Claim him any way but not change in the past. we are not in Orwell's "1984".

What does this even mean???
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on February 10, 2015, 21:26
What does this even mean???
It means Equality doesn't think we should be performing history revisionism, that all merits to be considered in the context of the time that the merit was obtained, and not have post facto actions denying the merit provided due to later developments outside of the historical context.

Equality, correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Equality on February 10, 2015, 22:33
exactly. Sorry for my ugly English =)
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 11, 2015, 00:02
It means Equality doesn't think we should be performing history revisionism, that all merits to be considered in the context of the time that the merit was obtained, and not have post facto actions denying the merit provided due to later developments outside of the historical context.

Equality, correct me if I'm wrong.
His nickname makes this statement quite funny :P

... and actually quite a bit deep.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on February 11, 2015, 16:48
It means Equality doesn't think we should be performing history revisionism, that all merits to be considered in the context of the time that the merit was obtained, and not have post facto actions denying the merit provided due to later developments outside of the historical context.

I don't see how this is outside the context of TB talking about video games. I also don't see how removing the name of a person who intentionally and knowingly supports abuse is somehow 'changing history'.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on February 12, 2015, 01:50
Don't quote me.  I am merely paraphrasing Equality's words.

I'm sitting out of this thread.  You already know the reasons.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on February 13, 2015, 23:30
That's your choice. I was replying to Equality.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sereg on February 22, 2015, 20:55
I'd just like to weigh in by saying... I don't give a single solitary fuck.

I don't see the point of removing the name. If it's a statement, it's an almost infinitesimal one. And does anyone even use the random names? The only time I do, it's because I was trying to quickstart a character too fast and skipped the name entry screen by accident.

On the other hand, I also couldn't care less if it is removed, because it has a negligible effect on the game. I think in all my games where I accidentally got a random name(and there are lots, Sereg'ing badges requires lots of restarting, lol), I've never had that one come up.

I share Para's disappointment that anything even remotely related to the whole Gamergate bullshit festival has made it over to DoomRL, but as it is a game, I suppose there's some basis for a connection.

Other then that, though... I don't see how it has anything to do with anything, and the whole discussion seems like an exercise in futility - and yet, here I am, participating in it.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on February 22, 2015, 21:27
I'd just like to weigh in by saying... I don't give a single solitary fuck.

...

Other then that, though... I don't see how it has anything to do with anything, and the whole discussion seems like an exercise in futility - and yet, here I am, participating in it.

You went meta pretty fast.  But I suppose it's a good thing perhaps?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sereg on February 22, 2015, 22:54
Heh. If I don't tell people I don't give a fuck, how will they know? ;)
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: The Goat on March 08, 2015, 23:34
All of the sources you provided give no real basis for TotalBiscuit being this "evil sexist racist transphobe". Any blog can be very opinionated and should probably not be taken as total truth, especially these ones, as they seems to be painting him out as a villain without giving any real evidence, and as a result, I'm really questioning your viewpoint here.

It seems awfully reminiscent of a smear campaign, to be totally honest. Isn't it kind of strange that anyone against those sites or the state of games journalism in general is suddenly a transphobic pedophile?

I think you want him removed mostly out of personal opinion influenced by blogs rather than any solid fact, and for that reason alone, I cannot support this whatsoever. Keep E-drama as E-drama, not Chaosforge involved E-drama.

I apologize if I have come across as hostile. I am just tired of seeing innocent people defamed for no good reason.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on March 17, 2015, 23:15
No blog or news article is 100% objective, so the better questions to ask would be how a piece is biased and how much it's biased. That's not to say blog posts can't contain objective information.

Which brings me to my main point here. I think the articles I linked DO contain at least some evidence that GamerGate is nothing more than desperate, deluded womanhaters willing to defend cybercriminals & child pornography in order to attack women, and that TotalBiscuit is cozying up to them & becoming a pretty nasty person in the process.

Even if the writers of the pieces are biased - and really, who wouldn't be biased against a group of desperate womanhaters unless they were either very ignorant of them or at least slightly sympathetic to them - their sources should be pretty clear. If you think the raw information displayed in those sources is not a big deal, I don't know what to say to you.

The fact that traditional games media (which would likely also be dismissed with claims of bias and low standards by GGers) does not cover this as much is both testament to how complex this issue is for sites like Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun, and testament to the need for people to talk about this.

The fact that you've apparently chosen to ignore all of that speaks more to your preconceptions than it does to any of my sources. And I can guess that you probably won't read too heavily into this post. I really, truly do not want to come across as hostile either with that last sentence, but this topic does happen to require a bit of study. I've presented facts. I'm not interested in debating people who deny them or their existence.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Bloax on March 18, 2015, 04:26
I think the articles I linked DO contain at least some evidence that GamerGate is nothing more than desperate, deluded womanhaters willing to defend cybercriminals & child pornography
Quote
traditional games media (which would likely also be dismissed with claims of bias and low standards by GGers)
Quote
I've presented facts.
Quote
presented facts
Quote
facts
The jew was also the root of all evil if we go back to 1940, but do glorious generalizations (I mean god damn, all you need is to throw "nazis" in there and it'll be a complete Best of the Baddest collection) make for good facts?

Honestly, why is this even an issue in the first place?
Quote
The only people in GG who cared about anything other than that are the young gamers they hoodwinked to be their foot soldiers to spam Twitter, and almost all of them are gone now.
Is it because you're actually one of the poor sods that are the 'foot soldiers' of the other front?
Why must we remove the name of The Big Bad that doesn't like your views?

Why must we care about your fight - and join it - when we are just some neutral corner of the internet?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Steve on March 18, 2015, 13:44
I'm just sad that this thread has gotten more of the forum's attention than the rest of the website combined.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sylph on March 20, 2015, 07:46
Trar, instead of posting links to articles that link to evidence, can you just post links to the evidence directly?

A screen-cap of TB being a misogynist would work far better than a URL to an article that describes TB as a misogynist and contains links to forum threads that contain links to more articles etc etc...

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a fan of TB, and have become less of a fan of him pretty much by the week recently, but I still haven't seen him being clearly over the line in any of these matters.

Your mistake here isn't the side of the battle you're on, it's trying to sway people's opinions by linking them to people trying to sway their opinions, instead of posting the evidence directly.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: insightguy on March 20, 2015, 08:23
Just gonna leave this here (http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com)

It seems awfully reminiscent of a smear campaign, to be totally honest.
The entire narrative against gamergate is basically one huge smear campaign, that's what I've noticed so far.

DISCLAIMER: I'm mostly neutral but leaning in with gamergate
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on March 20, 2015, 15:15
Just gonna leave this here (http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com)
The entire narrative against gamergate is basically one huge smear campaign, that's what I've noticed so far.

That blog is a hilariously, stupidly small fraction of the abuse that GG targets go through. Hell, a good portion of it's just reasonable people reacting to GG abusing its victims. If you consider disgust and disdain for what is basically a hate group a 'smear campaign', I don't know what to say to you.

Trar, instead of posting links to articles that link to evidence, can you just post links to the evidence directly?

A screen-cap of TB being a misogynist would work far better than a URL to an article that describes TB as a misogynist and contains links to forum threads that contain links to more articles etc etc...

Your mistake here isn't the side of the battle you're on, it's trying to sway people's opinions by linking them to people trying to sway their opinions, instead of posting the evidence directly.

It's reasonable enough you want clear evidence. But I thought the articles I've linked already contained some tweets, or links to tweets. It's not like his Twitter output is the only thing being brought up or the only thing that matters either; you can check this (http://simplikation.com/totalbiscuits-ego-modern-gaming-community/) article out for other criticism of TB which pretty much sums up why I want him out of DoomRL. It's not like this stuff is hard to look up individually either.

I hope for your sake you're not simply demanding finer and finer proof to try and discredit or wear me out somehow.

do glorious generalizations (I mean god damn, all you need is to throw "nazis" in there and it'll be a complete Best of the Baddest collection) make for good facts?

You might have missed it, but I did link a detailed and admittedly stomach-churning article on page 1 about how 8chan, one of GG's 'home bases', also unrepentantly hosts child pornography on open discussion boards. I guess I can see why you might not have read it.

There's also some pretty conclusive proof that the /baphomet/ board (which is also on 8chan if you didn't know) is engaged in threatening and SWATting people- not to mention the admin fleeing to China after he was caught selling stolen Social Security numbers. You can start reading about it here (http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/02/notorious-8chan-subboard-has-history-wiped-after-federal-judges-doxing/) and here (https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/baphomet).

By no means are these the only two articles about this. I'll also say that second link contains tweets. As in posts from Twitter. On a website dedicated to stringing together tweets to help form articles about those tweets.

Fortunately for you, I'm not outright dismissing you because you mentioned Nazism. I'm dismissing you because you're wrong.

Honestly, why is this even an issue in the first place?Is it because you're actually one of the poor sods that are the 'foot soldiers' of the other front?
Why must we remove the name of The Big Bad that doesn't like your views?

Being against abusive behavior and abusive people makes me a 'foot soldier'? You're assuming a hate group and its victims are somehow equivalent 'sides', which is obviously not true to anyone who isn't sympathetic to that hate group or below 6 years old. You might want to watch out if you don't want people thinking you're either of those.

Why must we care about your fight - and join it - when we are just some neutral corner of the internet?

Maybe you should start reading?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on March 20, 2015, 16:24
Honestly, I think I can sum it up like this:

https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/554849320562749440

Quote from: that tweet
If you continue to be neutral of or in support of gamergate KNOW you're silently approving of attempted murder by cop

It's pretty obvious TotalBiscuit supports GamerGate. Do you see now?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: insightguy on March 20, 2015, 23:25
If I may ask specifically, gamergate is a hate group against WHAT exactly? because the only thing I see them hating on is dishonest people. and if you classify them as a hate group for than,  then by all means  its a fucking hate group to you.

It's pretty obvious TotalBiscuit supports GamerGate. Do you see now?

Well no shit, he was open about that and DISCLOSED that. 

The only reason Simon from yogscast wrote that article (the one you linked to) was because TB criticized him for non-disclosure of paid promotions and instead of acting like a grown up and taking the criticism, wined on about it.

Spoiler: His defence (click to show/hide)

And shit, you do know that the guy had CANCER (recovering at the moment thank God) when they started the smear campaign against him.

And goddammit, 8chan TRIES TO TAKES DOWN ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY THAT HAPPENS THERE, but if you think you can do a better job, by all means, admin there.

Quote from: 8Chan Front page in red text:
Warning: Some boards on this site might contain content of an adult or offensive nature. Please cease use of this site if it is illegal for you to view such content. The boards on this site are made entirely by the users and do not represent the opinions of the administration of 8chan.co. In the interest of free speech, only content that directly violates the DMCA or other US laws is deleted.

EDIT:
Quote from: 8chan bottom of page:
All posts on 8chan.co are the responsibility of the individual poster and not the administration of 8chan.co, pursuant to 47 U.S.C. ยง 230.

We have not been served any secret court orders and are not under any gag orders.

To make a DMCA request or report illegal content, please email admin@8chan.co.

To blame 8chan and ALL the people there for any illegal stuff is like saying that all Germans even until today are nazis
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sylph on March 21, 2015, 16:34
It's reasonable enough you want clear evidence. But I thought the articles I've linked already contained some tweets, or links to tweets. It's not like his Twitter output is the only thing being brought up or the only thing that matters either; you can check this (http://simplikation.com/totalbiscuits-ego-modern-gaming-community/) article out for other criticism of TB which pretty much sums up why I want him out of DoomRL. It's not like this stuff is hard to look up individually either.
It might well not be, but I'm having trouble, and when you are trying to convince someone, you don't do it by telling them to go and google the topic and please change their mind - if you want to change people's minds, the burden to provide the re-education, particularly displaying your evidence, is on you. You won't win any court cases by saying 'your honour, please google the subject, check his facebook, and look at his mobile phone. You'll probably change your mind. The prosecution rests'.

Quote
I hope for your sake you're not simply demanding finer and finer proof to try and discredit or wear me out somehow.

You might have missed it, but I did link a detailed and admittedly stomach-churning article on page 1

Actually, if you think I'm trying to discredit you by demanding finer proof, you couldn't be further from the truth. In fact you might be shocked to learn I'm actually a female gamer that intentionally tends to resist broadcasting the fact specifically because of harassment I've repeatedly suffered some from misogynistic swathes of the gaming community. I'm trying to get you to adjust your argumentative style specifically because you yourself are making the anti-GG argument look flaky and weak; I think you're misrepresenting it.

My point was that you're not linking evidence. You're linking articles. Your reply was to link another article, then add a clause mentioning that I might have missed you linking an article on page 1! I think you don't get it, I'm trying to encourage you to link evidence instead of empty articles. Replying by linking more articles isn't going to help.

It's not hard, you do it like this:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sihieb (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sihieb)
And voila, people can have a discussion about whether or not there's such a thing as privilege. (A conversation, I might add, that really tends to separate teenagers from adults in their understanding of their standing in the world, and as such a conversation I feel is a lot more about world experience than it is about reason and logic, hence why so many reasonably high-IQ kids struggle with it so much).

Trouble is, that URL I linked isn't really evidence of TB being a chauvinist/misogynist/racist/sexist, is it? It's all grey-area. It's circumstantial. It demonstrates that TB leans to the line of thinking that usually reveals sexist or at least sexually misguided views, without being overt proof that his opinions are such... That's my trouble, all these articles you keep posting are just opinion pieces, and when they do try to link to 'evidence', the evidence is incredibly flaky. Posting links to long opinion pieces to encourage your audience to dig through for dregs of flaky, insubstantial evidence makes the anti-GG argument look weaker, not stronger, and that's why I'm trying to help you sort out your discussion style.





Just gonna leave this here (http://gamergateharassment.tumblr.com)
The entire narrative against gamergate is basically one huge smear campaign, that's what I've noticed so far.

DISCLAIMER: I'm mostly neutral but leaning in with gamergate
I'd find another name for what you stand behind if I were you. Your intentions are probably pretty clean, but GG as a movement carries so much negative baggage, declaring something like this is jumping into a den with a lot of people you probably don't want to affiliate with.
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Tavana on March 21, 2015, 16:51
(http://i.imgur.com/9ga9N.gif)
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Sereg on March 25, 2015, 19:58
I'm on the same page, Tavana. Holy fuck, this is still going on? The gamergate nonsense that lead to this is still going on? Wasn't that, like, a year ago? Shouldn't that be dead by now? It was never even remotely relevant to anything back when it was breaking news, much less now. Both sides are just talking to hear themselves talk - they have nothing of any import or worth to say to anyone but themselves.

Can't we all just play some DoomRL?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: thelaptop on March 25, 2015, 20:23
Can't we all just play some DoomRL?
Hmm... Lemme amplify that for you.

Can't we all just play some DoomRL?
Title: Re: I think the devs should remove TotalBiscuit's name from the game
Post by: Trar on April 02, 2015, 22:35
If I may ask specifically, gamergate is a hate group against WHAT exactly?

Women? It's not hard to see that.

The only reason Simon from yogscast wrote that article (the one you linked to)

Simon from Yogscast? You sure that was who wrote it? I also like how the article talks about TB using his large audience to dismiss criticism, and then he does exactly that very early in the image you posted, followed up by more of the egoism the article also talks about.

And goddammit, 8chan TRIES TO TAKES DOWN ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY THAT HAPPENS THERE

I don't know where you got this either. Those raiding/doxing/liferuining threads seem pretty sketchy, to say the least. That 8chan child porn link was titled 'The Mods Are Always Asleep' for a reason. No, I will not directly link to 8chan discussion of sexualized young children.

EDIT:
To blame 8chan and ALL the people there for any illegal stuff is like saying that all Germans even until today are nazis

8channers continue to put up with it, and they weren't duped or scared into submission by a fascist regime to do it.


@Sylph: I respect that you're trying to talk to me in good faith here, so I'll try and return the favor.

I can also respect your desire to strengthen my argument. But here's the thing: I still consider wanting direct links to tweets and such to be shifting the goalposts, since I tried to link articles that provided context. I'd prefer not to spend hours trawling TB's twitter for problematic stuff, either, not when people have already done it for me.

You're talking about my arguments against GG being weak, when I consider evidence against them to be very strong and even somewhat self-evident - I don't think we should talk about it in a vacuum because this isn't a courtroom.

On that note, I remember you said that TB was a good voice from the 'pro GG side'. There isn't any sort of equity between 'pro' and 'anti' GG. There isn't any reason to be pro GG when they're explicitly out to get you in particular because they are literally just an extension of gamer misogyny. I hope they don't ever get you. So I don't think there's any question about them.

If TotalBiscuit supports GamerGate, that should be worth pause, right? And if he supports GG, it wouldn't be a stretch for him to be sexist without being very extreme, would it?

I didn't even intend to go on about this in the first place, and now I regret getting as sidetracked as much as I did by people who apparently didn't like that. Referencing TB is an issue, whether the devs realize it or not, and it's something they need to think about. I started this thread with the purpose of bringing it to their attention. I was unfortunately drawn into the discussion about the semantics of the validity of these things, which is the devs' decision to decide.

Both sides are just talking to hear themselves talk - they have nothing of any import or worth to say to anyone but themselves.

If nobody's going to listen to what I have to say, then I'll stop talking. I've made my point. I'll continue to enjoy DoomRL regardless of the outcome the devs decide on - it's too good not to - but it is still a concern that I really think they should consider. I hope you all have a good rest of the day.