Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 29, 2007, 11:58
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I have an idea to add a negative bonus to movement speed to all armors, representing their weight. Note that it would be ONLY for movement speed (shot speed and others would be unaffected). This way I could introduce additional mods/traits that would reduce this penalty, and provide some balance to the game (it could be better to take on some places with a lighter armor).
The penalties would be:
green armor : -10% speed
blue armor : -20% speed
red armor : -40% speed
AA : NO modifiers
Mods adding protection would not add to the penalty, so a protection moded green armor would be better than a blue armor. A mobility armor mod would reduce the penalties by 1/2.
Additionaly I would find a place to display those values finally :)
What do you think?
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Speed and Dodge huh?
I get hit enough as it is. In order to compensate for this I'd have to blow a trait on hellrunner early on.
If we're going to "balance" the game, why don't we let enemies use health globes/berserk packs/armor shards/nukes, since they can already use med kits, armor, and any weapons they may find. :(
Sorry. I really don't like this idea.
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Um, let's drop that part about dodge -_-.
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Sorry! :(
I really didn't mean to sound like an ass there. (Which, on a second reading, I really do.)
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I think a mobility mod should drop the penalty by a fixed amount - e.g, a green armour should only require one to be non-encumbering, whereas a Red Armour may require four.
The dodge thing to which you've alluded sounds interesting - but rather than a further penalty, you should make it more of a neutral thing. The game's difficult enough, after all.
E.g., blue armour is 'normal', red armour is +10% monster to-hit chance, green armour is -10% monster to-hit chance, no armour is -20% monster to-hit chance. This would also serve to make the initial level less frustrating on higher difficulty levels (when lucky hits from Former foos cause you to bleed down to 40% HP and you have to restart).
Also, I think your penalties are a bit high. Perhaps no penalty for green armour (its positive effect is paltry, to be honest), then 10% for blue, then 20% for red. And maybe even +10% movement speed when unarmoured (again, making that first level better, because you've got a decent chance to get the medikits and not have to restart in frustration).
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Armor weight = ADoM
This = DoomRL
DoomRL != Adom
=> This != Armor weight
That was the most sane way for me to express how much I am against this concept in DoomRL
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It works different than in ADOM. Also I only modify the walking speed, nothing more. And it should provide some more things for tactical players, while the small penalties won't be noticable by the casual player.
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It doesn't matter how much it impacts movement speed. Just having something like that at all feels WRONG.
Look at me, I'm carrying 500 kg of shells and 10mm rounds and 3 spare sets of armor but should I ever wear just one of those 3 armors I carry in my backpack I'll be slowed down.......
Let's cut the heroic marine some slack and let him walk unencumbered into the halls of Hell.
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It doesn't matter how much it impacts movement speed. Just having something like that at all feels WRONG.
Look at me, I'm carrying 500 kg of shells and 10mm rounds and 3 spare sets of armor but should I ever wear just one of those 3 armors I carry in my backpack I'll be slowed down.......
Let's cut the heroic marine some slack and let him walk unencumbered into the halls of Hell.
Personally, I think it's good to embrace change every once in a while. After all, you mention ADOM - that used to be just a single dungeon. If someone had said 'What, add a wilderness? No, that = Daggerfall, not ADOM. It feels WRONG' then it wouldn't have been half the game it is today (well, if Thomas Biskup had listened).
Obviously, there are caveats, but we shouldn't reject change purely because it's change and it frightens us - we should have more logical grounds. Otherwise we'll end up with 'No unique weapons, this != Nethack', 'No Unique Monsters, this != Angband', etc etc. It's a bad road to start down. There's no reason not to utilise good ideas just because they're present in other games.
The main problem I can think of is that a lot of situations where you're in trouble are ones where armour just won't help - a minimum of one damage is always done, and the game only allots 50 HP initially. So even if armour reduces all damage to 1, if you get surrounded by three or so Arachnotrons who are hitting with any frequency, you'll still be dead in a couple of rounds.
My point being that armour just isn't that big a part of the game right now. Perhaps if the HP were doubled (and subsequently attack strengths doubled as well), and armour therefore became more important, it'd be worth it. But as it is now, it seems like substantial work for minimal gain.
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Adding something just for the sake of adding something another doesn't sound like a great idea.
The most distinctive features of DoomRL are being doom-inspired, uncomplicated and fast-paced. Armour weight is a good feature for a longer, slower-paced game, but not for a heated action. Save it for XCOMRL.
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It doesn't matter how much it impacts movement speed. Just having something like that at all feels WRONG.
Look at me, I'm carrying 500 kg of shells and 10mm rounds and 3 spare sets of armor but should I ever wear just one of those 3 armors I carry in my backpack I'll be slowed down.......
Let's cut the heroic marine some slack and let him walk unencumbered into the halls of Hell.
Personally, I think it's good to embrace change every once in a while. After all, you mention ADOM - that used to be just a single dungeon. If someone had said 'What, add a wilderness? No, that = Daggerfall, not ADOM. It feels WRONG' then it wouldn't have been half the game it is today (well, if Thomas Biskup had listened).
Obviously, there are caveats, but we shouldn't reject change purely because it's change and it frightens us - we should have more logical grounds. Otherwise we'll end up with 'No unique weapons, this != Nethack', 'No Unique Monsters, this != Angband', etc etc. It's a bad road to start down. There's no reason not to utilise good ideas just because they're present in other games.
The main problem I can think of is that a lot of situations where you're in trouble are ones where armour just won't help - a minimum of one damage is always done, and the game only allots 50 HP initially. So even if armour reduces all damage to 1, if you get surrounded by three or so Arachnotrons who are hitting with any frequency, you'll still be dead in a couple of rounds.
My point being that armour just isn't that big a part of the game right now. Perhaps if the HP were doubled (and subsequently attack strengths doubled as well), and armour therefore became more important, it'd be worth it. But as it is now, it seems like substantial work for minimal gain.
The thing is, ADoM is a slow-paced, serious Roguelike. Anything adding more depth to the game is usually good in that case (As long as it isn't silly or detract from the gameplay experience.) This is a fast-paced, coffee-table roguelike. Adding too much "real" stuff to it for no real reason detracts from the gameplay experience IMO. I have to agree with the majority on this one, this is really something that should be saved for when Kornel releases one of his "serious" roguelikes.
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The whole poin is that I have two paths right now. I can either crawl to a DoomRL closing now, leaving it's complexity as it is, or I can introduce new stats. It's the question of wether DoomRL should be developed further or left as it is... you wouldn't like to see it's development stop, would you?
Armor weight in a reduced way (movement speed only -5/-10/-20) will be available in 0.9.8.9 -- if people won't like it I'll remove it for 0.9.9.
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Theoretically - i didn't liked this idea much before playing.
Practically - I have played Beta and it seems to be ok. From my feelings armor don't affect speed so much that it would be real problem(at least blue armor). And also ability to see your current speed values is really cool.
Kornel, one question: do armor affects speed of monsters?
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That is not an easy suggestion to make..
Being fast and non over-complex was a definitive feature of DRL, it made it a good game, it made it popular.
The scope of proposals implies change of the original vision. DRL is not a kind of game in where you spend time planning far ahead before taking any turn, it is played fast and aggressive. If you want it to become something different now, I think it's better to stop. You know you can not (and I think, do not want) to work on it forever. You have to stop somewhere and it's better to do it at the peak.
I would rather see a brand new game appear on chaosforge, rather than see DRL mutating out of its shape.
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The problem I see with armor weights the way I see it after some testing and rethinking is that it works in an way I think isn't what was intended. It was supposed to make wearing or not wearing heavy armor a tactical decision. The reality is that in most gunfights player is stationary anyways, so the only ones that get hurt by this decision are:
-people who use shottyman/combat shotgun
-people who play melee games (melee people need armor to get alive to the enemy)
-people who open doors and get several shots/fireballs in their face (as discussed recently)
-people who are badly wounded and need to retreat (in this cease armor they were wearing most likely is already giving 0 protection so it becomes a double dead weight)
And before anyone starts, no chaigning sped penalty to evasion penalty again won't help - the accuracy recently seems a bit high anyway.
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That is not an easy suggestion to make..
Being fast and non over-complex was a definitive feature of DRL, it made it a good game, it made it popular.
The scope of proposals implies change of the original vision. DRL is not a kind of game in where you spend time planning far ahead before taking any turn, it is played fast and aggressive. If you want it to become something different now, I think it's better to stop. You know you can not (and I think, do not want) to work on it forever. You have to stop somewhere and it's better to do it at the peak.
I would rather see a brand new game appear on chaosforge, rather than see DRL mutating out of its shape.
QFT
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The problem I see with armor weights the way I see it after some testing and rethinking is that it works in an way I think isn't what was intended. It was supposed to make wearing or not wearing heavy armor a tactical decision. The reality is that in most gunfights player is stationary anyways, so the only ones that get hurt by this decision are:
-people who use shottyman/combat shotgun
-people who play melee games (melee people need armor to get alive to the enemy)
-people who open doors and get several shots/fireballs in their face (as discussed recently)
-people who are badly wounded and need to retreat (in this cease armor they were wearing most likely is already giving 0 protection so it becomes a double dead weight)
And before anyone starts, no chaigning sped penalty to evasion penalty again won't help - the accuracy recently seems a bit high anyway.
Very good point.
I'd add that armour gets destroyed so quickly in a sustained firefight that if the penalties were significant, it wouldn't be worth wearing it in most situations.
I couldn't disagree more with posts like those of Aerton and DaEezT; they really seem to just be coming from fear of change. I mean, as the game stands, it's cute and fun and all, but it's hardly a classic - once you've beaten it enough times, it'll just get boring. It doesn't have the massive replay value lots of other Roguelikes do - where one game you could be a Wizard blasting everything you see with magic, another you could be a Healer with a powerful monstrous companion, another time a Chaos Knight where your fate is decided on a mad god's whim.
The biggest variety you have on DoomRL right now is if you beat up your arachnotrons and hell knights with a chainsaw or with a chaingun, or if an advanced pistol appears, or if the Spider Lair appears or not.
This doesn't apply specifically to armour weight, but anything that adds depth, that can make each game unique, make success less based on luck and more on tactics, and makes the game more a 'serious' Roguelike instead of being dismissed as 'coffee-table' should be closely considered, in my opinion.
You seem to be attacking Kornel's ambition to make DoomRL more than it is.
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Is it too late for me to say I'm with DaEezT? I actually like the idea of armor mods, but somehow armor weight feels off. Kinda like... overthinking it a bit. Any changes to the armor system (or anything, really) should focus on conferring new abilities rather than adding for drawbacks for Instant Tactical Depth. (Just add water!)
Basically, I'm with you Kornel, in that another layer or two of options wouldn't hurt. However I think the best way to do that is to make the player choose a set of equipment and perks crafted to their play style, and influenced to a large degree by luck. So, more weird equipment, a deeper perk tree with more branches, stuff like that. DoomRL should be a playground, not a chessboard. Nobody works out a cost-benefit analysis of slides versus swings. They're both fun, and if you don't have time for both, you pick whichever one you like better and doesn't have somebody else on it.
PS: Since I may have rambled a bit too much in this post, here's my point. Among other problems, having any kind of system which would encourage you to take armor on and off for whatever reason is too much detail. When I have my Super Awesome Supercolliding Supersuit on, I want to keep it on and not have to worry about whether I have a 5% chance of getting macked in the face.
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I'll be frank and admit that I don't much like the weighted armour option so far. As is, it isn't a feature so much as it is an encumbrance (literally) to the player. The way armor is damaged now gives it a powerup-like feel, much like it was in the original Doom.
Worse than any inconvenience to the player is the notion that this concept has not been introduced in a balanced fashion. It seems odd to me that you can be carrying four sets of armour, a BFG and a plasma rifle, and still run like the wind, but the minute you put on a suit of amour you slow down. Will the enemies be susceptible to this effect? Will there be an equipment weight system soon, wherein you must keep your inventory half empty or slow down?
The armor mods and traits mentioned would be there to limit the effects of this feature. In other words, to play as we are accustomed, one will have to sink some traits into this. If the AA is unaffected by the slowing effect, then presumably slowing will make the beginning game harder but will not effect the late game.
I'd argue that the opposite should be done - we should find ways to speed the player up. We need traits that speed up item use, that lets us sidestep fireballs, and strafe and fire simultaneosly. :)
Having said all that, armour mods might be cool. Flaming Reinforced Red Armour of Shotgun Mastery, anyone?