Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Napsterbater on April 14, 2012, 17:59

Title: Shotguns
Post by: Napsterbater on April 14, 2012, 17:59
I've recently had the thought that shotguns, as they are in the game, are rather unrealistic. A real shotgun would not do the same amount of damage to an enemy behind the one in front. They don't have nearly as much of a cone of effect in real life. And physics dictates that if an enemy gets knocked back, it takes less kinetic energy from the blast. I propose that shotguns and combat shotguns do 85% of the damage to the enemy it first hits that's in the line of fire, minus a certain percentage considering the knockback tiles, which should proceed based on enemy weight rather than amount of damage. Flying enemies should get knocked back more and take the least amount of damage. The other 15% goes to the next enemy behind the primary target.

Double shotguns maybe should get an area of effect cone, where the damage is greatest in the center of the cone. Damage should be relatively constant, and divided up by where the enemy is in that cone.

This would make shotguns not so darned effective, but on the other hand, barrels become less of a problem around sergeants. Maybe plasma shotguns could work the way shotguns work now.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: yaflhdztioxo on April 14, 2012, 19:28
Just to be clear, you ARE playing something based on Doom.

Realistic firearms depiction?  Hell, I'm amazed you have to reload.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: Napsterbater on April 14, 2012, 20:40
The original Doom shotgun did not have an area of effect cone but rather fired seven pellets, each of which inflicted 5-15 points of damage. Each pellet was as accurate as a pistol shot. My idea is getting closer to the original Doom.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: thelaptop on April 14, 2012, 21:08
I'm not going to contribute to the discussion here except to remind folks to stay civil in discourse.

As for shotguns and pellets, I think there's another thread which was discussing this.  Maybe someone with more time on their hands can find which thread it was.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: yaflhdztioxo on April 14, 2012, 22:16
I like poking fun at game mechanics as much as the next guy... Okay, maybe a little bit more than most.  But realism has always taken a back seat to enjoyment here.

The shotgun as it exists now is a crucial tool for many early game builds and tactics.  Changes to that mechanic, especially the auto-hit property, are unlikely.  Recoil itself is already on par with other damage sources--totally unrealistic but fun.  There is no tracking of mass in DoomRL, and 'flying' enemies don't really exist in DoomRL either; in theory we could slap another var and another being flag into the engine for that, but in practice I don't see that happening.
Your gameplay physics need a little retuning.  In the real world momentum is more readily conserved than energy, and the recoil felt with a shotgun is minimal.  I've yet to find any weapon, shotgun or otherwise, that I cannot absorb the recoil from, let alone one that actually knocks me back far enough to justify our level of knockback.  Given that our knockback is unrealistic, trying to account for the potential loss in kinetic energy seems a little silly.  It's not an issue in real life; trying to apply it here contradicts the Rule of Cool.
That leaves two ideas that may gain traction: Center of cone damage bonuses (The shotgun cones themselves can be different sizes, but there's no damage dropoff for the edge) and beings soaking up some of the damage when they are in front of other beings (the being that is further away will take less damage due to distance dropoff, but the being in front doesn't block anything).  Of the two, the first one is *probably* the easier one to implement, but the harder one to evaluate balance-wise.  The second one I wouldn't sweat balance-wise.

Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: MaiZure on April 14, 2012, 22:45
I agree that trying to connect reality isn't a goal here.

In fact, shotgun gameplay is interesting because it behaves differently from other weapons. Mimicking real life would probably homogenize gameplay mechanics since "in reality" all weapons involve throwing chunks of mass at high speeds at targets, right? Shotguns may defy logic right now but the gameplay feels like arcade and this is good.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: Napsterbater on April 14, 2012, 23:26

I guess my main problem with shotguns is that when I use them I feel like a fire-breathing dragon. The chaingun is supposed to be a better weapon, but it takes a heck of a lot of traits/mods to use one effectively. On MAc runs I find myself using a regular shotgun until I get TH2. Chainguns just don't pack enough of a punch to justify using it over firing blindly with a shotgun. I suppose with EE1 and SOB1 it's powerful enough to oneshot most imps/formers, but even then you're better off hiding in a doorway with a shotgun breathing undodgable fire at everything.

In fact there's no weapon-restricted build that doesn't benefit from early use of the shotgun for a long long time, in many cases right up until you get the Master. I've been trying out other challenges lately rather than Ao100 MMB, and the dominance of the shotgun never wanes. Is it even possible to survive the first five levels in a normal UV game without one?
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: LuckyDee on April 15, 2012, 00:14
The chaingun is supposed to be a better weapon, but it takes a heck of a lot of traits/mods to use one effectively.

Although I don't think the shotgun(s) require change, I do agree on this point (which is one of the reasons I requested help (,5585.0.html) in its use). On early levels, compared to the shotgun the chaingun is worth Jack. Average damage (in practice if not theory) is rediculously low and alternate fire only serves to divide it further. Knockback is negligible. When faced with multiple enemies - even ones coming from different directions - I'd pick the shotgun over the chaingun any day.

Doesn't really add up.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: Creepy on April 15, 2012, 01:01
Yeah, this issue is less a problem with the shotgun and more a problem with the chaingun.

Though I don't think the chaingun is supposed to be a better weapon overall, though. It's supposed to be on the same level; the first weapon the dedicated master catagory of their type (ShotRocket and ChainPlasma trait catagories). You do get the shotgun before the chaingun, but there's not so much of a gap that one should just toss the shotgun aside unless you're actually building for the rapid-fire traits. Most offense builds should be able to start rolling as planned as soon as they have the chance to get their key weapon and their advanced trait (Berserker/Dualgunner/Shottyman/Triggerhappy), but the chaingun's kinda weak so even with Triggerhappy you'll probably be using that crutch shotgun from the first floor after you get it.

If you're not running rapidfire, then there shouldn't be a strong reason to always toss the shotgun for a chaingun beyond personal preference (or if your build has traits that make one more effective). But rapidfire builds should really always have good cause to do so, and the chaingun needs to be beefed up a little for that to happen.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: MaiZure on April 15, 2012, 01:06
Aside from speedruns I am a UV/N! exclusive player. Truth be told, I usually do not have a shotgun in my inventory by the time I pass Anomaly. Since Combat Shotty was pushed back to dlvl 6+ a few version ago, I don't think I've used one.

I think the shotgun is more a point of playstyle. The impression I'm getting is that shotgun may be a complete carry on HNTR/HMP levels, but I dont have the experience to say for sure. Actually on N! games, I'm almost always a chaingun guy starting on dlvl 2 until plasma weapons.

EDIT: Perhaps I can record a standard UV game in the next few days for a reference
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: Creepy on April 15, 2012, 01:13
Please do!
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: LuckyDee on April 15, 2012, 01:16
Please do!
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: AlterAsc on April 15, 2012, 01:43
I think i can say that currently i'm an exclusive N! player, but i don't switch shotgun until i get plasma rifle(and MAc with it).I do use chaingun is some situations, but mostly of desperation, or to kill enemy without knockbacking him.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: Ashannar on April 15, 2012, 13:42
I'm not sure what nerfing shotguns would accomplish. They are OP in the early game, but by late game they fall behind other options. It would be better to leave them as they are so that some people at least consider using them in hell.
Title: Re: Shotguns
Post by: Cotonou on April 17, 2012, 11:08
I almost exclusively use shotguns.