Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: TFoN on January 02, 2007, 12:20
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I've recently played Doom for the first time in years, and noticed shotguns are anyway quite effective sniping weapons, which they aren't DoomRL.
This and wanting to put shells to better use on single powerful enemies without massive damage and without keeping large reserves of 10mm around (wasting lots of shell space) or facing the many disadvantages a RL has, gave me an idea:
Re-implement Assault Shotguns as weapons which work in most ways as Combat Shotguns, but "convert" shells to slugs, simply by using them as pistols would. They'll still be slow to reload, and will have the miss factor of other weapons, but will cause high damage to single targets - maybe even the shotgun's 6d3.
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In english please?
If you mean using 10M ammo as shot shells, then provided enough shells are used at once, it could work.
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No, no, not at all.
Ok, I'll try that again:
Assault Shotguns will use shells for ammo, but fire them the way a pistol fires 10mm - a single "-" - which, as far as I know, is the way real-life shotguns use slugs (hence "solid", as they're a single body, and not a "spray", which is they way shells work once fired).
Clear this time?
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Me like. But where do we find a keyboard key for this? The numerics are already full from 1 to 0.
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Since Doom had a tighter spread patterns, why not tweak the Combat Shotgun (or the Shotgun, or both) so it has a spread pattern more similar to the original? I think it could do the trick, too.
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I personally don't really see any need for a solid slug. I know what you mean, ammo like that is available in most tactic games but I think DoomRL is fine the way it is now. The spread patten is the price you have to pay for the power and 'always hit' feature.
I think shotty and chaingun/pistol balance each other out and with weapon mods coming in the next version the weapon landscape is bound to change anyway.
Speaking of mods, maybe a shotgun specific mod...
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The spread patten is the price you have to pay for the power and 'always hit' feature.
Slugs *won't* always hit, so that's not a factor, and the slow reload and one-target boundries will likely keep it from becoming over-powered.
I think shotty and chaingun/pistol balance each other out and with weapon mods coming in the next version the weapon landscape is bound to change anyway.
Speaking of mods, maybe a shotgun specific mod...
Well, I don't know anything about weapon mods just yet, so that may change my POV, but for the time being, I'm thinking aloud.
As for chaingun balance, I don't know... From my recent SG-training experiences, it seems to me much easier to play through a game not using SGs than it is to play not using CGs. Even trait-wise, EE's needed to keep your RLs working smoothly (and that CG), but Reloader's not nearly as so. EE will still be needed to work AssltSGs well, but at least you won't need ~3 10mm spaces and a CG to back them, too.
Since Doom had a tighter spread patterns, why not tweak the Combat Shotgun (or the Shotgun, or both) so it has a spread pattern more similar to the original? I think it could do the trick, too.
Aye, possible - making CmbtSGs narrow-angled, permanently or switchable w/'R' (the current 'R' doesn't seem to coserve reload time anyway, so it's better to control-'r'eload, one at a time).
But narrow-angled shotguns still don't fulfill what I had in mind, because they'll still lose a lot of power at medium range.
As for the quick-slots, maybe they could be tweaked? I was thinking, if 3 would choose the best (arbitrary) SG, you could still 'i' pick a "lesser" weapon, and the UI can include defining keys to weapons (restricted to keep it DooMish :P ).
After all, DblSGs out-class shotguns in all ways, when they can 'R'eload one barrel, and in most ways seem to out-class CmbtSGs by firing*2 where CmbtSGs fire->pump->almost fire ( and that's assuming they have shells left in them).
So, IMO:
1- LS, Combat Knife
2- (Plasma Pistol?), Pistol
3- Double Shotgun, (Assault Shotgun?), Combat Shotgun, Shotgun
4- Chaingun
5- Rocket Launcher
6- Plasma Rifle
7- BFG9000
8- Chainsaw
Special weapons will out-rank their normal class and then be picked by a first-inv-slot basis, possibly unless otherwise keyed by the user (who can, BTW, key them only through 'i'nventory ('K'?) to avoid lists that may spoil, although keying will then be permanent 'till changed again).
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Slugs *won't* always hit, so that's not a factor, and the slow reload and one-target boundries will likely keep it from becoming over-powered.
[SNIP]
Aye, possible - making CmbtSGs narrow-angled, permanently or switchable w/'R' (the current 'R' doesn't seem to coserve reload time anyway, so it's better to control-'r'eload, one at a time).
But narrow-angled shotguns still don't fulfill what I had in mind, because they'll still lose a lot of power at medium range.
But since a narrower shotgun would STILL always hit as it would use normal shells (and the always-hitting feature has been heard from Kornel itself, so it's for real), I think it might balance out the medium-range factor. And they would still be next to useless at large ranges, that is the special things about shotguns.
Making slugs it's just like making a sniper rifle: pointless (in a fast-paced, action focused and not stealth focused game) and un-Doomish.
So I still think mine's a good idea :P.
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I've recently played Doom for the first time in years, and noticed shotguns are anyway quite effective sniping weapons, which they aren't [in] DoomRL.
If not for that, I'd probably also consider it undoomish.
That and I don't mean AssltSGs to make for long-range devestators, but that they will still deal *serious* damage at the LOS edge. Narrow-angles, if they will do this, will also hit multiple targets, and I'm expecting this to be overpowerd.
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I agree that narrowing might make shotguns overpowered. But if that is done to the one-shell shotgun, it might cancel out the advantage. Still, it's a thing that should be thoroughly tested and tested again as to compare how does it fare against the shotgun we have now. Perhaps, to achieve balance, it might be a attachment for the shotgun - so you lose a improvement spot to have this advantage. That might work.
On the other hand, analize the weapon you have proposed:
* Deals the same amount of damage as a normal shotgun, to a single target (that's lots of PAIN)
* It hits a single enemy.
* It travels in a straight line.
* It reloads after every shot (or cocks, whatever)
Seeing that, I think Sniper Rifle instead of Assault Shotgun is more fitting :P. It just seems the description of one. Just take Intuition and Eagle Eye and OMG I R TEH 1337 PH34R SNIP4R!!!!!111oneone
Which is totally undoomish :P
Also, the name Assault Shotgun reminds me more of a Pancor Jackhammer type of weapon - a semi-automatic (or fully automatic) shotgun with a round clip that forbids one-shell at a time reloading and that is just too cool for this world. Imagine the shotting speed of a chaingun plus the pwnage of a shotgun in every shot. Hey, this could actually be another super-weapon, although it would eat shells like no tomorrow :P.
Here, take a look: http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh10-e.htm
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Sniper idea seconded. I had a similar idea for some time ago. It would add 2 to LOS and have a decent firepower about 15. If the bug thing about the creatures not attacking you if they're outside your LOS will get fixed this would make an ok weapon.
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Sniper idea seconded. I had a similar idea for some time ago. It would add 2 to LOS and have a decent firepower about 15. If the bug thing about the creatures not attacking you if they're outside your LOS will get fixed this would make an ok weapon.
Seeing that, I think Sniper Rifle instead of Assault Shotgun is more fitting :P. It just seems the description of one. Just take Intuition and Eagle Eye and OMG I R TEH 1337 PH34R SNIP4R!!!!!111oneone
Which is totally undoomish :P
You seem to get my post totally on the contrary on what I've said - sniper rifles do NOT make sense in DoomRL universe so they shouldn't be on the game. It aims to be a fast-paced roguelike with lots of action centered around the Doom universe, so there should be no room for grinding, stealth or 1337 sniping. It's no CounterStrikeRL or SplinterCellRL, which would have a different setting and a different approach.
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Then why not removing Cat Eye and Intuition from traits? They don't fit into Doom fast paced action game as well :) . But we like them cause they give us advantage in the cruel world of Phobos :)
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Then why not removing Cat Eye and Intuition from traits? They don't fit into Doom fast paced action game as well :) . But we like them cause they give us advantage in the cruel world of Phobos :)
If what you want is having advantage, then why not add ANGELIC STEALTHY UBERPISTOL OF DEATH as starting weapon that deals 100000000000d100000000 damage per second and also renders you invisible? You could surely beat Hell down with that :P
Intuition, right now, is kind of overpowered (in my opinion) and I expect it to be nerfed slightly sometime soon. And Cateye helps sniping only if monsters do not respond back to your firing, otherwise it helps general tactics as you see more of the level at a glance, so you have a better chance of seeing what's coming to you. It's true that Cateye, compared with Intuition, is underpowered, but that's another discussion. I try not to use neither, though, because I feel a game is better won if it's a fair play. And resorting to "the easy way" is one thing, a thing that I also do (trying to get the best traits/equipment possible) but another thing is going "the cheap way", which is playing minimizing risk until it isn't risky anymore.
Perhaps the sniping factor of DoomRL should be toned down with some penalty to hit based on distance, so sniping from one part of the level to another would be almost impossible, even with Eagle Eye. That way Intuition would help you to see what's coming for you, which is what I think Kornel intended it to be.
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I don't think that a sniper rifle would be totally overpowered and unrisky when the bug about monsters not attacking you when you snipe them will be eliminated. That's why i think it wound't hurt the gameplay in any way and it would be useful/
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Adral, you keep pointing just inches away from my original idea, not quite getting the meaning of my suggestion.
Ok, first off, I've encountered the Pancor Jackhammer in both Fallout2 and Abomination: Nemesis Project, and if it's anything like it is there, that's one hell of a firearm :P
Now, back to here:
I don't mean AssltSGs to make for long-range devestators, but that they will still deal *serious* damage at the LOS edge.
Aye? E.g. if you set base to-hit to, say 550%, and then cut off 50% per tile traveled (first tile included), then at the LOS edge (9 tiles?) it's 100%, but on the next tile it's 50%, and 0% after that. And that's just on-the-spot - once calculated, betad and tweaked, it will hit very often *inside* LOS, but nearly never right off it, Cateye, Intuition or otherwise (EE will be taken better into account).
As for Intuition, IMO it's an emulation of repeated play and educated expectations (considering here most maps aren't pregenerated) - and the way I see it, that's not undoomish at all, as long as the AI's uped a couple of notches (though DooM has more than it's share of 0-range stupid-standers :) ).
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Adral, you keep pointing just inches away from my original idea, not quite getting the meaning of my suggestion.
[snip]
E.g. if you set base to-hit to, say 550%, and then cut off 50% per tile traveled (first tile included), then at the LOS edge (9 tiles?) it's 100%, but on the next tile it's 50%, and 0% after that. And that's just on-the-spot - once calculated, betad and tweaked, it will hit very often *inside* LOS, but nearly never right off it, Cateye, Intuition or otherwise (EE will be taken better into account).
Well, you didn't quite explain that before, just pointed out it would kick at LOS range, coupled with "one-shell", "straight-line", and "lots of pain to a single target". Sounded like a sniper rifle, so it's not entirely my fault.:P
Still, now that I understand your suggestion, I don't find them necessary (as opposite of not finding them doomish, like I said on a post before). I think tweaking the shotguns is a better idea if anything was going to happen in that direction.
As for Intuition, IMO it's an emulation of repeated play and educated expectations (considering here most maps aren't pregenerated) - and the way I see it, that's not undoomish at all, as long as the AI's uped a couple of notches (though DooM has more than it's share of 0-range stupid-standers :) ).
With this I agree: the AI might use some work up.
But I didn't mean to imply the traits were "undoomish" per se, just that I found they could be tweaked to not be so powerful. As I said, being cheap is not my cup of tea, as opposed as thinking my way on a balanced game. When you can clearly say (and is a generalized opinion) that the game is much easier with Intuition, then something is wrong.
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To pt.1- ok, now that we're on the same track :)
Possibly so, though I disagree, but in the case of narrow angles: they're mostly all that I suggested but with a shorter max-range for good damage, and hitting multiple targets (BTW, I assume we agree that their advantage is higher damage, which by diminishing at a similar rate as SGs do now means "focused" damage in the narrow funnel - so double-damage and half the funnel width).
Assuming this doesn't make them overpowered, then aside from this being exactly the situation I'm trying to balance (i.e. you'll still need a CG to complement them in too many cases), a double-shotgun out-classes these simply by doing the same damage and having a wider funnel (or: since it's for double ammo, maybe just pick the SG, which wasn't supposed to make much sense).
Furthermore, give DblSGs a narrow angle (if it's a trait) and then *they*'ll be too tough, at double-damage of a DblSG, which is like~ a point-blank SG hit, but at long range and multiple targets, still never missing = too much pain!
Let me know, of course, if you had something very different in mind.
To pt.2- Aye.
Still, it seems many people are unaware of the advantages of Intuition (as I've undersood from some comments). If beyond that they're also aware of advantages of traits that I or we don't use, then it may become simply a matter of personal strategy, and our/their not knowing how to manage their/our style of play. That's what I'd like to clear up, but haven't yet succeeded.
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To pt.1- ok, now that we're on the same track :)
Possibly so, though I disagree, but in the case of narrow angles: they're mostly all that I suggested but with a shorter max-range for good damage, and hitting multiple targets (BTW, I assume we agree that their advantage is higher damage, which by diminishing at a similar rate as SGs do now means "focused" damage in the narrow funnel - so double-damage and half the funnel width).
Assuming this doesn't make them overpowered, then aside from this being exactly the situation I'm trying to balance (i.e. you'll still need a CG to complement them in too many cases), a double-shotgun out-classes these simply by doing the same damage and having a wider funnel (or: since it's for double ammo, maybe just pick the SG, which wasn't supposed to make much sense).
Furthermore, give DblSGs a narrow angle (if it's a trait) and then *they*'ll be too tough, at double-damage of a DblSG, which is like~ a point-blank SG hit, but at long range and multiple targets, still never missing = too much pain!
Ok, so traits are discarded. I actually never proposed them, but still it's good we come to an agreement:P. What I said is that we can take advantage of the fact that weapons mods are coming at the next version to add a Shotgun-specific mod (and I do mean Shotgun, not Combat Shotgun nor Double Shotgun) that narrows it's spread. That, coupled with the damage reduction at higher distance, as you said, might keep things balanced.
To pt.2- Aye.
Still, it seems many people are unaware of the advantages of Intuition (as I've undersood from some comments). If beyond that they're also aware of advantages of traits that I or we don't use, then it may become simply a matter of personal strategy, and our/their not knowing how to manage their/our style of play. That's what I'd like to clear up, but haven't yet succeeded.
Blade, who everybody knows is a mutant cyborg from a RL dimension (:P), has said the game is easier with Intuition. I trust his word as he's an experienced player that has gone doing almost all possible combinations of skills. I have also found in my games that once I get Intuition[3] and a Sniper Plasma Rifle or Rocket Launcher, I can toast almost anyone from a distance.
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Ok, so traits are discarded. I actually never proposed them, but still it's good we come to an agreement:P.
I was sure there was a proposition like that, from you or someone else, but after going over everything pretty well it seems I was wrong. My bad :)
What I said is that we can take advantage of the fact that weapons mods are coming at the next version to add a Shotgun-specific mod (and I do mean Shotgun, not Combat Shotgun nor Double Shotgun) that narrows it's spread. That, coupled with the damage reduction at higher distance, as you said, might keep things balanced.
But will still not make shells available for long[er :) ]-ranged attacks, and will still keep CGs advantageous for the most part (although the out-LOS hit-rate tweak suggestions might change that. I guess that's just left to be seen).
Blade, who everybody knows is a mutant cyborg from a RL dimension (:P), has said the game is easier with Intuition.
That's true, then I guess the case is closed :)