Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Mortem Archives => Post Mortem => Pre-0.9.9 => Topic started by: Zi on February 09, 2009, 22:41
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DoomRL (v.0.9.8.10) roguelike post-mortem character dump
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Z2, level 12 Cacodemon General, defeated the Cyberdemon
on level 25 of the Phobos base.
He survived 189518 turns and scored 171732 points.
He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.
He killed 626 out of 634 hellspawn. (98%)
He held his right to remain violent.
-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------
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-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------
Health 42/50 Experience 62303/12
ToHit +6 ToDmg Ranged +0 ToDmg Melee +0
-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------
Tough as nails (Level 2)
Son of a gun (Level 3)
Eagle Eye (Level 3)
Dualgunner (Level 1)
Intuition (Level 3)
SoG->SoG->SoG->DG->EE->EE->Int->Int->Int->EE->TaN->TaN->
-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------
[a] [ Armor ] Necroarmor [1/6] (22%)
[b] [ Weapon ] fastload rocket launcher (6d6) [0/1]
[c] [ Boots ] modified plasteel boots [8/8] (80%) (P)
[d] [ Prepared ] modified BFG 9000 (11d8) [20/100] (D1)
-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------
[a] advanced pistol (2d4) [8/8] (S2M1A1)
[b] modified pistol (2d4) [6/6] (S1)
[c] 10mm ammo (x73)
[d] 10mm ammo (x100)
[e] 10mm ammo (x100)
[f] rocket (x4)
[g] rocket (x10)
[h] rocket (x10)
[i] rocket (x10)
[j] rocket (x10)
[k] power cell (x5)
[l] small med-pack
[m] large med-pack
[n] Gothic Boots [10/10] (200%)
-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------
58 former humans
78 former sergeants
28 former captains
110 imps
47 demons
75 lost souls
36 cacodemons
20 barons of hell
1 Cyberdemon
22 hell knights
21 arachnotrons
7 former commandos
8 pain elementals
12 arch-viles
22 mancubi
18 revenants
-- History ---------------------------------------------------
He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
On level 3 he entered Hell's Arena.
He left the Arena as a champion!
On level 4 he stormed the Chained Court.
On level 11 he ventured into the Halls of Carnage.
On level 20 he entered the Vaults.
He came, he saw, but he left.
On level 21 he found the Necroarmor!
On level 23 he entered the Lava Pits.
On level 23 he found the Gothic Boots!
He managed to clear the Lava Pits completely!
Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.
-- Messages --------------------------------------------------
Fire -- Choose target... The missile hits the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon
fires! You are hit! Your Necroarmor is damaged! The Cyberdemon
reloads his rocket launcher.
You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
You reload the rocket launcher with rocket. You are hit! Your Necroarmor
is damaged!
You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed.
Fire -- Choose target... You hear an explosion! You are hit!
You reload the rocket launcher with rocket.
Fire -- Choose target... You hear an explosion!
You use a phase device. You feel yanked in an non-existing direction!
You reload the rocket launcher with rocket.
You use a small med-pack. You feel healed.
Your rocket launcher is already loaded.
Fire -- Choose target... You hear an explosion! You hear the scream of a
-- General ---------------------------------------------------
Before him 139 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
119 of those were killed.
4 of those were killed by something unknown.
1 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
And 11 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.
Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
Is he immortal? 4 souls claim to have killed him...
4 killed the bastard and survived.
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My first win on hard, once again with my beloved pistols. Numerically I still think max trait pistols are better dps/hitrate than max trait chaingun? The only downside is you can't keep another weapon in the prepared slot.
Also, I didn't get any unique pistols, which usually make a huge difference in a pistol marine's power. Lava pits at lev 23 were pretty useless, I should have just skipped it. Chickened out and used a few shots of BFG/rockets on Cybie - how would you deal with him with pistols? Plus his sight range seems to be 9 or something...hiding around corners doesn't help that much?
I think intuition's pretty useful - you can fire around corners without being spotted - the only pain is always having to re-aim the firing reticle/cursor after each shot. You need to keep a lot of ammo in reserve to do this though; lots of missed shots: I usually try to keep 600 rounds all the time, didn't see the wall this game so it took a lot more space. It's doubly annoying when you realize you're not making any progress because an arch-vile is resurrecting what you just shot ("Hey, how come the number of dots is still the same!").
I've never seen an invul globe on the 24th floor! Hrmmm....
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Killing Cybie with Pistols? I laugh at the idea. We would need Cateye 4 in order to pull it off.
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How do you think people complete AoMr, huh? ;)
Edit : LOLWUT? or LMFAO! 2000th post! xD
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How do you think people complete AoMr, huh? ;)
Good luck, Hellrunner, TaN, Armor and Replacement Armor, Strategy, Modded/Unique pistols, and at least two LMPs... or a thermie (and invuln) ;)
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I am surprised to see so many speed mods on your pistols. I generally consider speed to be the weakest mod for weapons. Particularly for pistols since your speed is lowered so much by the pistol traits already.
Am I missing something? Or did you just not find anything better?
My preference for pistols is:
Damage
Magazine
Reload
Accuracy
Speed
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I prefer to take the "Moar Dakka" route: so Son of a Gun, Finesse, Speed Mods, Eagle-Eye. Dealing fewer harder punches versus more , if lesser, punches? I'll take Death by a Thousand Cuts any day. Minimum damage dealable is 1, so you probably are better off this way anyway.
Out of sheer curiosity, how fast can you shoot an Advanced Pistol (S4)?
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LOLWUT? or LMFAO! 2000th post! xD
Welcome to Spider Mastermind-dom, oh almighty God of Roguelikes ;D
On topic, @Raekuul:
I absolutely DISagree with your quote "Killing Cybie with Pistols? I laugh at the idea. We would need Cateye 4 in order to pull it off."
If you build up your character so that he's DESIGNED for using pistols, which is usually the intention on AoMr, then killing Cybie with pistols is no problem at all. In some cases I'd even say Peanuts.
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How do you think people complete AoMr, huh? ;)
Thermonuclear sth.
I am surprised to see so many speed mods on your pistols. I generally consider speed to be the weakest mod for weapons. Particularly for pistols since your speed is lowered so much by the pistol traits already.
Am I missing something? Or did you just not find anything better?
My preference for pistols is:
Damage
Magazine
Reload
Accuracy
Speed
Good luck finding Damage mods on AoMr.
In some cases I'd even say Peanuts.
Thermonuclear sth.
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I am surprised to see so many speed mods on your pistols. I generally consider speed to be the weakest mod for weapons. Particularly for pistols since your speed is lowered so much by the pistol traits already.
Am I missing something? Or did you just not find anything better?
My preference for pistols is:
Damage
Magazine
Reload
Accuracy
Speed
Speed mods are definitely the best or second best mod for pistols. Once you have SoG 3, a few speed mods will jump you from being able to shoot twice in a second to three times, giving you +50% firepower. Damage mods can't nearly as easily pull that one off.
Also - Yeah. Cybie with pistols is surprisingly easy. I was expecting hell, too, but it wasn't nearly so bad. I had a Blaster and a double damage modded pistol, so I was pulling off an average of 15 damage a second. Only have to reload every third second, too.
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Marksmanship runs are my favorite way to play DoomRL, so this topic is very interesting to me.
Minimum damage dealable is 1, so you probably are better off this way anyway.
Disclaimer: These numbers are all from the wiki, so they may or may not be correct. My guess is that they are at least mostly correct.
Average base pistol damage is 5 (2d4). Cyberdemon has an armor rating of 4. So if you have no damage mods or SoG ranks then half of the time your damage will be reduced to 1 and you will do an average damage of 1.625 per shot.
With 1 level of SoB, your average goes up to 2.25. 2 levels makes it 3.0625, and 3 levels makes it 4.
So each level of SoB makes a significant difference. Adding Damage Mods has an identical effect. And against enemies with less armor they would have an even greater effect.
Out of sheer curiosity, how fast can you shoot an Advanced Pistol (S4)?
Base fire time for a pistol is 1 sec.
SoG: firing time reduced 20%
Fin: firing time is reduced by 10%
Speed mod: firing time is reduced by 10%
Base * SoG 3
1 sec * (.8 * .8 * .8) = .512 sec
Base * SoG 3 * Fin 3
1 sec * (.8 * .8 * .8) * (.9 * .9 * .9) = .373 sec
Base * SoG 3 * Fin 3 * Speed Mod 3
1 sec * (.8 * .8 * .8) * (.9 * .9 * .9) * (.9 * .9 * .9) = .272 sec
If we use these numbers and combine them with the above, we can get some damage/sec information.
If we have a soldier with a pistol, SoG 3, and the option of adding either 3 damage mods or 3 speed mods to his pistol, what is his best option?
Base:
4 dmg / .512 sec = 7.8 dmg/sec (8 dmg / .512 sec = 15.6 dmg/sec against unarmored)
Damage option:
7 dmg / .512 sec = 13.672 dmg/sec (11 dmg / .512 sec = 21.48 dmg/sec against unarmored)
Speed option:
4 dmg / .373 sec = 10.7 dmg/sec (8 dmg / .373 sec = 21.45 dmg/sec against unarmored)
It looks like on average you are always better off using damage mods. Damage mods give you a significant advantage against armored opponents. As the enemy armor decreases, the advantage diminishes.
It would be a little trickier to determine whether speed mods or reload mods would be better for DPS, but my instinct is that the reload mod would be better. Since your speed is already up due to SoG, there is a point of diminishing returns with more speed mods. However, if you have not taken any Reloader traits then you get the full benefit from a reload mod. I would probably use a magazine mod over a reload, though.
My assumption is similar with accuracy mods. Since pistols start out so accurate already I don't know if they are worth using more than once.
Of course, this is assuming that you have your pick of which mods to apply. More often you just have to use what you get. But looking at the numbers, I think I will still take almost any mod over a speed mod when given the chance.
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Also - Yeah. Cybie with pistols is surprisingly easy. I was expecting hell, too, but it wasn't nearly so bad. I had a Blaster and a double damage modded pistol, so I was pulling off an average of 15 damage a second. Only have to reload every third second, too.
Imho it was because of the Blaster. Without any unique weapon and the damage mods it tends to be tricky.
It looks like on average you are always better off using damage mods. Damage mods give you a significant advantage against armored opponents. As the enemy armor decreases, the advantage diminishes.
Quoted for truth.
Since pistols start out so accurate already I don't know if they are worth using more than once.
I usually end up having one accuracy mod - helps a lot in early game (in late too - for shotting targets outside FOV).
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Whoa there styro, that's more than I really wanted. Nice to know, but more than I wanted.
Damage mods on pistols increase range without raising the minimum, though, so D3 Pistol would be 2d7. Higher damage, yes, but higher variance and less-frequent maximums as well. Versus cybie, this could make a big difference. Disregard that.
Plus, I think that rounding is downward, so the .03 difference isn't going to be making a significant difference against unarmored.
Oh, and for your formulations... no, wait, we're assuming an advanced pistol, so it's a pointless argument...
So - DG Blaster + A.Pistol (S3) with Finesse 3, SoG 3 (That's CL 7 right here - we'll need reloader 3 to stand a chance, so CL 10)
This would be:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.2752330752 - somewhere between 4 shots per second and 3 shots per second, closer to 4. At this point, the reload time becomes prohibitive, which means we'd be sacrificing the almost essential Eagle eye and Cateye upgrades (CL 13 and 15, respectively) to maximize firing speed.
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In some cases I'd even say Peanuts.
Thermonuclear sth.
No, pistols. And of course with the right traits and mods. =)
Thermies are for cowards. =P
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Whoa there styro, that's more than I really wanted. Nice to know, but more than I wanted.
Eh, I can't help myself. :)
So - DG Blaster + A.Pistol (S3) with Finesse 3, SoG 3 (That's CL 7 right here - we'll need reloader 3 to stand a chance, so CL 10)
This would be:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.2752330752 - somewhere between 4 shots per second and 3 shots per second, closer to 4. At this point, the reload time becomes prohibitive, which means we'd be sacrificing the almost essential Eagle eye and Cateye upgrades (CL 13 and 15, respectively) to maximize firing speed.
You are correct that the damage mod's advantage is less when dual-wielding.
Here are the numbers for dual-wielding the Advanced Pistol and a normal pistol for a character with SoG 3 and Fin 3.
Speed:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.2752330752
8 dmg / .275 sec = 29.1 dmg/sec (16 dmg / .275 sec = 58.1 dmg/sec against unarmored)
Damage:
1.2*[0.5*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9) + 1.0*(0.8*0.8*0.8)*(0.9*0.9*0.9)]/2 = 0.3359232
11 dmg / .336 sec = 32.7 dmg/sec (19 dmg / .373 sec = 56.6 dmg/sec against unarmored)
So when you are dual-wielding with full SoG and Fin, they are nearly identical with a slight edge for Damage mods vs armored opponents and a slight edge for Speed mods vs unarmored opponents.
Since pistol-wielders end up taking Dualgunner, in the end it really does not make much of a difference which type of mods you choose to apply.
At that point you are burning through your ammo every 1.5 - 2 seconds, so your reload time of 1.2 seconds is the limiting factor in DPS.
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Thanks, Styro! I don't know what raekuul's complaining about - I love good statistics in the morning! XD
Anyway, I think this gives the edge to Damage mods - even if Speed mods had an overall edge, Damage mods make ammo usage more efficient. That would probably make it a tie. However, as they're pretty evenly matched, I'd take Damage and never miss the Backpack on AoMr.
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Just my few cents. You say Cybie has armour 4?
Well then, take 3 SoG, 1SoB and he has no armour at all [:
And get some damage mods...
When I am fighting arachnotrons, I usually have SoG 3 and EE 3 (and Dualgunner). When I am lucky, I have some SoB and damage mods applied. What happens?
Arachnotros get pushed back. Usually, they are fast and manage to get back to my LoS, but then again, they get another portion of lead. If I empty my magazines, I take cover and reload.
This is how I play AoMr:
SoGx2
Dualgunner
EEx2
SoG
EE
SoBx3 (I do not know if this is the highest number)
Ironman (I do not take TaN, because of the arachnotron procedure I mentioned above)
Usually I max out Ironman and then Finesse. Usually when I get to this point, my character is very powerfull. And apply as many damage mods as you can!
Anyway, I wish for a game where I get my hands of Anti-freak Jackal before entering the Wall. Yummy!
But then again, I noticed, Anti-freak Jackal is not so cool, because you might accidentally destroy valuable items. And we really need ammo on AoMr!
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Hmmmmm, very nice statistics Styro - thank you for them :) .
Melon:
Jackal do not destroy walls. I got it once (the only time when I got useful unique weapon on AoMr) and tested it.
I could not blast any wall, so in the end I skipped going there.
Weapon is awesome - splash damage works wonders and the damage is pretty nice itself. It can destroy valuable stuff, but there are tactics that minimalise it.
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But I was destroying the walls! Although, it seemed a little random (it doesn't destroy the whole 3x3 area, just some parts), but the AFJ did destroy the walls!
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Damage mods make ammo usage more efficient.
This is very true. Even though damage per second is roughly equal, total damage before reload is definitely on the side of damage mods.
Generally you can kill most single opponents without having to reload at that point in the game, but if you find yourself surrounded by baddies then guns with damage mods probably are an advantage because you are giving out more pain per reload.
Speed Pistol SoG 3
6 shots * 8 avg dmg = 48 damage / clip
Damage Pistol SoG 3
6 shots * 11 avg dmg = 66 damage / clip
Against armored opponents it is 32 dmg/clip for Speed mods and 42 dmg/clip for Damage mods.
You can also make the argument that with speed you burn through more ammo, but in my experience it is pretty tough to run out of ammo. If you do it is probably because you are shooting blindly or you are hoarding too many med-packs.
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Melon:
I remember using few dozens of shots against walls on a level before The Wall. They did not seem to do any damage as far as i remember ...
I may be wrong of course - so it would be nice if any of our testers/cheaters obtained AFJ (by any means) and went on that level just for testing purposes.
If you do it is probably because you are shooting blindly or you are hoarding too many med-packs.
Special levels tend to eat ammo as well.
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I'd have to figure out where Weapon Spawn Level hides in the memory, which in turn means that I'd have to determine if the game pre-determines what uniques you get...
Oh Kayi~n! Kor~nel!
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If DoomRL was made by Kayin, the first level would look something like:
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Note: The c's are not demons, they are cherries.
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This is true.
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Son of a Gun's firing speed boost does not multiply like mods do, but add, which makes it even better. So 3x SoG means you only spend 40% of the usual time to fire a shot. With Dual gunner, you require 48% of the usual time to fire TWO shots.
Look at this post: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=1814.msg14396#msg14396
I also don't prefer speed mods, but I had nothing else to choose from for the longest time. If you've got 3 damage mods already on the pistol though (happens to me once in a blue moon), throwing a few speed mods doesn't hurt.
Damage mods are rather nice, to counter enemy armor, especially. The magazine mod has turned out to be surprisingly useful, getting 8 shots off before needing to reload actually allows you to finish off enemies without needing to reload more often, which pays off a lot. It also decreases the impact of reload time as you don't need to reload as often.
Accuracy is underrated. If you're using the pistol from long range (or with intuition, especially), the chance to miss actually is nontrivial. But here taking the trait is better, as one trait level gives +2 acc, while 1 mod gives +1 acc.
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Melon:
I remember using few dozens of shots against walls on a level before The Wall. They did not seem to do any damage as far as i remember ...
I may be wrong of course - so it would be nice if any of our testers/cheaters obtained AFJ (by any means) and went on that level just for testing purposes.
If you do it is probably because you are shooting blindly or you are hoarding too many med-packs.
Special levels tend to eat ammo as well.
AntiFreak Jackal destroys walls! I have it now, 2xSoG, and it does happen, although very rarely! But I had the Wall level before the Jackal |:
EDIT: Now I have 3xSoG, 2xSoB and I destroy walls more often
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More damage gives a better chance of knocking back the monsters when you shoot them. I'm not sure how it works, but I'm guessing something like 10 damage as the threshold. In an AoMr game you usually start knocking back the monsters at some point of the game, and in earlier versions of the game when SoaG gave 2 points of damage it was too easy. KB makes a HUGE difference, especially with Cateye as the monsters never get a chance to shoot at you. So that's another advantage damage mods have over speed mods, they help achieving knockback.
But most of the time it's just a matter of luck and what type of mods you happen to get your hands on.
I found the AFJ once but didn't use it, but I'm guessing that destroying walls is also damage dependent, so with SoaGx3 and SoaBx3 you'll be destroying more walls than without them.
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The threshhold for wall breaking seems to be 13 and a burst weapon.
Fun fact: Burst weapons with a splash of 0 and enough damage dealt will still break walls, but won't damage items. Too bad that there aren't any legitimate burst weapons with a splash of 0. Not including Railgun, but that's not a burst weapon anyway.