Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Sereg on June 04, 2013, 12:53
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So, before I post this in bug reports(it seems like a lot of my recent ones aren't actually considered bugs >.>), I'll ask here first:
Why does Triggerhappy work with the Jackhammer, but Ammochain doesn't?
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Because it's not a rapidfire weapon? GCB benefits from TH as well, but I'm putting my money on MAc not entering the picture there, either.
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But... it is a rapid fire weapon? It fires multiple rounds in succession? Isn't that the definition of a rapid fire weapon?
I've never actually used GCB, but I have some experience with the BFG 10k, and I don't really see a fundamental difference in how those work. Per my knowledge, BFG 10K does in fact benefit from MAc.
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Per my knowledge, BFG 10K does in fact benefit from MAc.
Could be, though I would be amazed. See this (http://doom.chaosforge.org/wiki/Weapon_Families).
GCB is a pistol you can switch to semi- and full-auto modes. Hence the TH-but-not-MAc construction.
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Perhaps it's because you can't chainfire?
That would be the logical reason, the balance reason is (probably) that the Jackhammer is pretty powerful already, its main drawback is the ammo consumption. You'll probably have to wait for official reasoning from the dev(s), these are just what I think are the most likely explanations.
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Jackhammer is classified as a shotgun. That's why MAc has no effect on it.
Afaik BFG10K is considered rapid-fire for purprose of MAc. But i wouldn't use it. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself.
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Afaik BFG10K is considered rapid-fire for purprose of MAc. But i wouldn't use it. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself.
Yep. That was my experience with it that I referred to earlier =P
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Jackhammer is classified as a shotgun. That's why MAc has no effect on it.
Afaik BFG10K is considered rapid-fire for purprose of MAc. But i wouldn't use it. Too easy to accidentally kill yourself.
That's simply stupid ... Jackhammer uses tons of shells and is usually not very viable for a typical shottie run.
It uses even more shells with Triggerhappy, which makes it a bad weapon, imho.
I don't see why it could not be compatible with MAc, which would make it a good weapon, at last.
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Yeah, with two levels of TH, it can only be fired twice before reload, and the second burst isn't even at full power. Kind of defeats the purpose of a rapidfire weapon, and it means that the only rapidfire shotgun is actually less effective for rapidfire builds, which... makes no sense. It's not necessarily the ammo cost that's a problem, because I'm not inclined to use it enough to get low on ammo because of that first point. Additionally, it has fewer effective applications then a more traditional burst weapon - unless my target is pinned to a wall, the knockback from so many successive shotgun blasts will push it far out of range by the time I fire the second burst. (If it is pinned to a wall, then yes, it dies. But it's nice to have a few weapons with niche uses, and making a rare unique weapon benefit from an uncommon build path that should affect it anyway doesn't seem like it's going to break the game balance to me.)
Perhaps it's because you can't chainfire?
Let's add a chainfire function, then? ;) Maybe 2/3/4? That'd work for the non-MAc version, as well, and it would only add an additional round per burst to the full power MAc chainfiring, which doesn't seem too OP - certainly much less of an increase then for most chainfiring weapons.
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I now consider Jackhammer is a rather bad weapon (wastes too much shells, not efficient for cornershooting... only usable in a few situations, like killing shamblers sticked to a wall in HA)
TH doesn't help, ofc.
On MAC builds, it would be just too powerful... 5 shells at the cost of one ? ... are you serious ?
Adding chainfire to it, tough, would be useless. 2/3/4 means it wouldn't fire faster unless you're MAC (you'd need to reload too fast), so the only use would be to spare some ammo. Maybe just add an alternate fire (the curren one, firing 3 shells), and make it's default attack a normal one ?
That would make it better (even if I'm aware it's not the worse weapon atm...)
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On MAC builds, it would be just too powerful... 5 shells at the cost of one ? ... are you serious ?
Adding chainfire to it, tough, would be useless. 2/3/4 means it wouldn't fire faster unless you're MAC (you'd need to reload too fast), so the only use would be to spare some ammo. Maybe just add an alternate fire (the curren one, firing 3 shells), and make it's default attack a normal one ?
Maybe too powerful, but making MAc build just for one shotgun sounds like a ...you know.
On the other side, it still got very small ammo magazine, and has drawbacks explained earlier in the previous posts.
And if you say that it is too powerful, then what would you say about modded Plasma Rifle, or Hyperblaster?
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Heh... those are nothing. You should have seen the F2N1S1T1 laser rifle I was rolling with the other day(until I found a nightmare arachnotron cave >.<) - one burst for all normal enemies, two for big nightmares and shamblers/lava elementals.
Essentially, MAc will already result in monstrously powerful items. Adding one more, which can't be N modded, can only be used at close range, and most effective if the target is pinned, isn't going to break anything, especially when that item has very limited uses without MAc(meaning, at all, right now). It's also worth noting, as skarczew mentioned, that no one will be building MAc just for jackhammer, unless it spawns very, very early. If they find it in addition to a MAc build, nice for them. So is a nuclear plasma rifle. So is a laser rifle. So is a minigun. So is a nano pack. So is a firestorm pack. If they find it without the MAc build, then it will be no different then it is right now.
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Maybe too powerful, but making MAc build just for one shotgun sounds like a ...you know.
I didn't speak of taking MAc only for it, but improving from an (already extremely powerful) plasma gun with mediocre accuracy and 1d7 * 6 damages, consuming plasma, to a 3d8 * 5 area weapon which never misses and just needs some shells sounds like a quite big leap.
So in fact, yes, it probably would deserve picking the skill just for it.
I agree, modded plasma rifles and hyperblaster are insane, especially with unlimited ammo, but I quit them for a scout build currently.
Intuition seems better than MAc to me when you don't have 2devination skills to locate monsters.
Heh... those are nothing. You should have seen the F2N1S1T1 laser rifle I was rolling with the other day
You're comparing an Ao666 weapon with a regular drop...
Sure, I prefer my usual S2B3 nuclear plasma rifles to most unique weapons, but one of the major difference caracterizing uniques is that they are powerful right out-of-the-box !
No need to wait for a ton of stupid mods to use them... just take a shell box, and your Jackhammer will pwn asses
I don't think Jackhammer is a bad weapon. For me, it just consumes too much shells, but it's still great for AoSh, and certainly also as a big area damage dealer, for some uses.
I personally prefer regular shotguns, but I wouldn't say it suck, really. It deals insane damages. I just see it as a situationnal weapon.
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I didn't speak of taking MAc only for it, but improving from an (already extremely powerful) plasma gun with mediocre accuracy and 1d7 * 6 damages, consuming plasma, to a 3d8 * 5 area weapon which never misses and just needs some shells sounds like a quite big leap.
So in fact, yes, it probably would deserve picking the skill just for it.
But the thing is, almost nobody would make MAc on AoSh.
Simple A2 modded Plasma Rifle would hit often enough to outdamage Jackhammer. Add more mods, traits, damage drop due to a range, armor (should I mention that plasma is better for this?), bigger magazine ...
Sure, I prefer my usual S2B3 nuclear plasma rifles to most unique weapons, but one of the major difference caracterizing uniques is that they are powerful right out-of-the-box !
No need to wait for a ton of stupid mods to use them... just take a shell box, and your Jackhammer will pwn asses
I tried it once in CoS. I had to switch to Elephant Gun and Plasma Rifle because Jack ate 3 shell boxes. True story.
I don't think Jackhammer is a bad weapon. For me, it just consumes too much shells, but it's still great for AoSh, and certainly also as a big area damage dealer, for some uses.
I personally prefer regular shotguns, but I wouldn't say it suck, really. It deals insane damages. I just see it as a situationnal weapon.
"Something is not bad." "I use other stuff anyway." <-- I see some contradiction here :P
Arena Master's Staff is not bad. It is just a situational equipment too.
And for some reason people want to change it, too. Why? Because it is situational?
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Jackhammer really shines in those late levels packed with nothing but formers. I once got three such levels in a row. It was awesome!
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I didn't speak of taking MAc only for it, but improving from an (already extremely powerful) plasma gun with mediocre accuracy and 1d7 * 6 damages, consuming plasma, to a 3d8 * 5 area weapon which never misses and just needs some shells sounds like a quite big leap.
So in fact, yes, it probably would deserve picking the skill just for it.
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You're comparing an Ao666 weapon with a regular drop...
So are you, though. The only place you're guaranteed to get Jackhammer is AAo666. If you're building MAc specifically for it, you're going to be disappointed otherwise, because odds are, you're not gonna find it.
In a normal game where you are lucky enough to find it, by the time that happens, your build may already block MAc, or in any case, it will probably be quite a stretch to adapt to it... unless you were building toward MAc anyway, in which case, it's not really an issue.
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So, what d'you conclude, that Jackhammer sucks ? I guess Frag shotgun and Charch's null pointer are better.
Using 3 shell boxes for CoS... just explain me why you used a jackhammer in that level ! I cleared several mortuaries with jackye and 3 shell boxes... but why would you overkill lost souls with that O_o ?
"Something is not bad." "I use other stuff anyway." <-- I see some contradiction here :P
Why ? Anti-grav boots are great, insane... and I prefer crafting nanomachic weapons. Power armor is great too, and I hardly ever craft one for the same reason...
An even better example, I guess, would be melee builds : they are easy and overpowered, but I never use them, because they don't seem fun to me.
Jackhammer just doesn't fit to my playstyle anymore, but remains a great weapon, particularly on a MAD build, I guess (Gunrunner also blocks WK, but... well, I'd say MAD, at least, has benefits. That's just my point of view, of course :)
I hardly use something else than a regular shotgun now. Bullets seem too weak, rockets are mainly useful to jump or gib, and I keep plasma for hot situations, since it consumes too fast and need stupid levels in EE to work, while shotties don't. This doesn't mean I consider plasma guns, RL, or BFG suck, but only that I don't see why I'd use them when a shotgun can do all the work, at a "cheaper" cost.
@Sereg
Of course you wouldn't go MAc betting you'll find it... but what if you find it on a MAc build ? You'll trash it xD ?
And btw, you're not forced to rush a mastery. My current build is masterless, and it works pretty well. Your build won't block anything if you don't choose to... It's all up to you.
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Using 3 shell boxes for CoS... just explain me why you used a jackhammer in that level ! I cleared several mortuaries with jackye and 3 shell boxes...
Against Agony and its spawn.
So, what d'you conclude, that Jackhammer sucks ? I guess Frag shotgun and Charch's null pointer are better.
It is like Minigun few releases ago - good on paper, mostly useless in reality.
Why ? Anti-grav boots are great, insane... and I prefer crafting nanomachic weapons. Power armor is great too, and I hardly ever craft one for the same reason...
An even better example, I guess, would be melee builds : they are easy and overpowered, but I never use them, because they don't seem fun to me.
And that is why you are not 2Dev ;) .
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I'm just not sure the Jackhammer needs to be changed so it works with MAc. It'd be a bit weird in MAc's description. "Only uses 1 ammo per burst with all rapid-fire weapons..... and the Jackhammer as well, for no reason?!?". Although, I will concede that shottyman reads a little bit like that these days. God SM is good these days :)
There's also the fact that it sort of does work with MAc, just not with the free ammo bit. You've got Rel(2), there's nothing stopping you choosing SM at any point you want. To me, that's a fully working shotgun. So MAc and the Jackhammer work fine, you just have to carry ammo for it. Sort of like with every other build in the game.
In fact, it's pretty hard to think of any build that the jackhammer doesn't work with. It's the best shotgun in the game, even if it is a bit ammo-hungry. I'm not sure what you see as wrong with it. It's the best shotgun in the game, and you think it should be better with one mastery?
Sorry, what was the question again?
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But just so I actually contribute something to the discussion, I think that A, F and S mods should do something on shotguns.
Firestorm mods were "meant to" raise damage multipliers on DB shotties, except DB shotties didn't even have enough ammo in them for their x3 multiplier, so they got changed. I slapped an F-mod on one once, back when they were as rare as hen's teeth. (8d3)x5. Booyah! Then I found out that it didn't actually do anything. You would not believe how heartbroken that made me.
So can we have A, S and F mods doing something on shotguns instead of a MAc/Jackhammer change?
Discuss and de-rail...........
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It'd be a bit weird in MAc's description. "Only uses 1 ammo per burst with all rapid-fire weapons..... and the Jackhammer for no reason?!?".
Why add that second bit? Jackhammer *is* a rapid-fire weapon.
As far as Shottyman, I've determined that it's simply not worthwhile in a game that takes you to level 25 with a MAc start to the build. In a standard game, maybe, but I'm finding I'm still coming up short on the skills I want even after excluding Shottyman.
I think it should be better with this one mastery only because this mastery should apply to it, and somehow doesn't. In fact, that mastery's prerequisites actually make it worse by dropping it from 3 bursts to two before reloading.
The question is, why is there a rapid-fire weapon that is disadvantaged by a rapid-fire trait's prereqs, and fails to receive the same benefit from it that every other rapid-fire weapon gets?
At your second post, I would also like to see those mods work more broadly - not just with shotguns, but maybe with melee as well. What about an F modded chainsaw that attacked in a cone(albeit for only one square in each direction), or an S modded ripper that did piercing damage?
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It's just a lot of annoying coding for one specific weapon with one specific build. TH will still make the jackhammer "suck" (read as: be awesome) in any other build, but it'll be especially awesome with MAc. Scarily so.
I guess if Kornel wanted to make a new class of weapons, remove the Jackhammer from the shotgun group, dump it in the new group and give that group's definitions that let it MAc, MAD, MSh, TH and SM and work like a shotgun, he could. It's just a lot of work for one weapon that "sucks" (again, read as: is awesome).
Then again, me wanting mods to do stuff on shotguns is just as much work, yet also opens up requests like "Why doesn't my sniper-mod work on a blue armour?". So maybe you have a point.
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Well, Sniper and Firestorm are specifically designated for weapons only, as Onyx is designated for Armor only, so adding a Sniper Weapon Pack to a piece of armor wouldn't be logical no matter how you looked at it. Chainsaws and shotguns are still weapons, at least. I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch of their intended functions to make them work with weapons that don't technically have ways to match those functions - although Firestorm on shotguns could logically be made to work.
And I think you're misunderstanding me when I'm talking about changes to the Jackhammer. I'm not asking that it be made to work with every mastery for every weapons type. I just want it to work with the masteries that affect the groups it already belongs to. MAD should work, since that's a shotgun trait, and Jackhammer is a Shotgun. MAc should work because Jackhammer is a Rapid-fire weapon, and for the same reason that TH already works - Jackhammer fires bursts. TH makes bursts fire additional rounds, and MAc makes bursts cost a single round. One already works, yet for some reason, the other doesn't. That's all I'm questioning.
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adding a Sniper Weapon Pack to a piece of armor wouldn't be logical no matter how you looked at it.
It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.
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Lol.
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Why add that second bit? Jackhammer *is* a rapid-fire weapon.
uh ? And so is double shotty, I guess ?
I'm not sure it should work with TH, but don't tell us it's a rapid fire weapon... anyway, with shell boxes or SM, it doesn't make a big difference.
(...)it's simply not worthwhile in a game that takes you to level 25(...)
"not worthwhile" is your personal point of view. Anyway, don't take Ao666 as a reference to consider a weapon's worth... I'm afraid most weapons would suck with such calculations.
It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.
That ! is a great idea. I love it.
Well, more seriousely, every weapon pack should have a (useful) effect on every kind of weapon. S on shotguns already enables a rather good assembly, but I think it could reduce damage dropoff with distance by a few %. I'd ask for 1.5%, which looks like a good number to me, but such a change would require testing, anyway.
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We could you know, nerf Jackhammer...
I prefer the SSG anyway after all, and tend to use MAD more than MAc.
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uh ? And so is double shotty, I guess ?
I'm not sure it should work with TH, but don't tell us it's a rapid fire weapon...
Mein Gott...
The Pancor Corporation Jackhammer is a 12-gauge, gas-operated automatic shotgun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer
A double-barreled shotgun is a shotgun with two parallel barrels, allowing two shots to be fired in quick succession.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-barreled_shotgun
anyway, with shell boxes or SM, it doesn't make a big difference.
No, there is totally no difference between 2 shots and 9 shots before reloading.
Btw. DoomRL got a design bug: Pancor got bigger ammo capacity in reality (10-shot ammo cassette, instead of 9 DoomRL-like).
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Mein Gott...
I wonder if my post was confuse, but you clearly missed the sarcasm part.
And when I spoke of little difference with SM or a box, I meant, for Jackhammer : 2 or 3 shots between reloads doesn't change much. (10 ammo magazine would be cool, though)
@thelaptop
I agree with you... but I still think regular (moddable) shotguns are often more interesting, outside MAD.
I'd personally add a single shoot option to the Jackhammer, so that it really rocks, but I'm aware it doesn't "need" it, and already has enough potential as is.
It's just that I find it sad that I didn't bother grabbing the last ones I found... since a normal P[1-3]-modded shotty seems better to me.
Anyway, I guess this discussion should probably have reached some Godwin point a few pages ago, since it doesn't seem constructive anymore.
Anyone wanna talk wolfRL ? :p
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Everyone who disagrees with me on this is a supporter of genocide.
Godwin point reached ;)
"not worthwhile" is your personal point of view. Anyway, don't take Ao666 as a reference to consider a weapon's worth... I'm afraid most weapons would suck with such calculations.
You will note that I did, in fact, mention it was personal opinion just before you abbreviated my quote ;)
[...]I've determined that it's simply not worthwhile[...]
The reason I use 666 as a reference point is because that's the only place I've ever found Jackhammer =P in a normal game, it simply isn't going to be available. It would be fair to say this holds true for every unique, however, and trying to make them all worthwhile there wouldn't be an efficient use of time. Again, the main reason I'm on about Jackhammer specifically is that it's a rapid-fire weapon that doesn't benefit from the only true rapid-fire mastertrait(yet is somehow affected by the rapid-fire prerequisite traits, and I've already explained why I don't feel that's necessarily a positive). I'd go on about how the double and super shotguns don't qualify as rapidfire because their "burst" empties the entire magazine, and while it's calculated successively, that isn't how a double shotgun actually works(unless you singly pull each trigger, but we have alt F for that), while it *is* how the Jackhammer(and other autoshotguns, like the AA-12) actually work, but you've already admitted that comparison was sarcasm, so I'll leave it at that.
@thelaptop
I agree with you... but I still think regular (moddable) shotguns are often more interesting, outside MAD.
I'd personally add a single shoot option to the Jackhammer, so that it really rocks, but I'm aware it doesn't "need" it, and already has enough potential as is.
It's just that I find it sad that I didn't bother grabbing the last ones I found... since a normal P[1-3]-modded shotty seems better to me.
I find it sad as well, since a normal tac shotgun seems better to me from an ammo conservation perspective(as I generally use shotguns from doorways near walls and blow people away one shot at a time as they approach, which makes the Jackhammer's burst less effective then single shots from a combat, tactical, or assault shotgun, since each shot knocks the target back farther, does less damage, and still uses a shell), and plasma rifles, hyperblasters, nuke plasmas, or laser rifles - or hell, even a gatling gun or burst chaingun - better from a rapidfire perspective, since I can snipe with them.
Now, a MAc affected Jackhammer would actually be a slightly better(as far as ammo consumption relates to damage output) shotgun option then tactical, if one were to be lucky enough to find it, and unlike the rapidfire weapons, can't be made to generate its own ammo, so an ammo stack or several would still need to be carried.
Doesn't seem too terribly unbalanced to me.
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why you talk about those rare Jackhammer but not stormbolter pistol? It becomes rapidfire with 2*TH - 4 per burst. And anyone can assemble it. But still PISTOL not "rapidfire", and do not get 1-ammo-per-volley bonus from MAc. All right here? Why you think that Jackhammer must have such a bonus?
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I have no experience with the storm bolter pistol =P I posted this after finding Jackhammer, being excited when I saw it worked with TH, then leveling up MAc and being sad when that didn't work.
If I'd had that experience with the storm bolter pistol, first, this thread would have been about that instead, and you would have just posted telling me about how the Jackhammer becomes rapidfire with TH but doesn't benefit from MAc, and asking why I thought storm bolters should get such a bonus while Jackhammer doesn't =P
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MAc is still really good, but I think it saying "Volleys only consume 1 bullet's worth of ammo" Is a great way of describing it if the Jackhammer/Stormbolter differences are rectified. After all, it already works with BFG10K. Who cares if it gets a little more buffed.
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That's generally the change I'd be requesting, yes. I assure you, this request isn't specific to Jackhammer - that's just the weapon I first noticed the lack of compliance with MAc on. I'm more or less wondering why MAc only seems to work on rifle type weapons, rather then rapid-fire weapons of any type, which seems to be the spirit of the Mastery.
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I think Jackhammer could use a nerfin'. Make it a slightly better nanoshrapnel assault shotty. Or something with less dice sides. Piercing damage type questionable.
Also.
It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.
+1
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Hmm... I wouldn't be in favour of buffing MAc any more. It's extremely powerful as it is, but my main gripe with it is that it just makes no sense. If it was up to me, I'd make it so it automatically reloads rapid-fire weapons after each shot and gives a backpack-like bonus to ammo stacks to make it more useful. But I have a hunch that this might be the way it was originally conceived and that it wasn't working too well.
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Hmm... I wouldn't be in favour of buffing MAc any more. It's extremely powerful as it is, but my main gripe with it is that it just makes no sense. If it was up to me, I'd make it so it automatically reloads rapid-fire weapons after each shot and gives a backpack-like bonus to ammo stacks to make it more useful. But I have a hunch that this might be the way it was originally conceived and that it wasn't working too well.
I think the issue with that is just that rapidfire weapons, especially with TH2 or F mods(to say nothing of both - chainfiring some of my heavily modded endgame weapons would consume ammunition at a rate almost on par with a BFG), just consume so much ammo that the only way to make a Rapid-fire Mastery trait that's actually strategically viable is to have that trait mitigate that high rate of ammo consumption(or not necessarily apply to rapid-fire weapons specifically, like Cateye - I don't consider Entrenchment to be strategically viable). While your solution sounds good in theory, the fact is that I've actually run out of energy cells while using MAc in its current form, if I get a series of successive levels that don't contain commandos/arachnos/ammo rooms. I would certainly agree that the old MAc(no ammo consumption at all) was overpowered(every rapid-fire weapon, even completely unmodded, functions as a Nanomachic? Holy shit), but I think the current form is just right.
I wouldn't consider making other rapid-fire weapons compliant with MAc a buff to the skill - rather, I see it as making the skill work as it's stated. I don't understand the point of overlooking rapid-fire weapons in a rapid-fire mastery - and while it's true that Jackhammer and storm bolters don't consume ammunition at quite the rate of a plasma rifle or variant, I still don't think it makes sense that they don't work with a master trait that's supposed to affect rapid-fire weapons.
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It paints a giant target on the chest and a "shoot me" text bubble above your character
all enemies gain +5 to hit.
I was thinking the opposite. Gives you a scrim-suit or camo armour. Slows your movement down by 5-10% but gives all enemies -2 to hit. Although, yours is funnier.
Onyx on a weapon? Your weapon becomes unbreakable and can be used in close-combat. "Spikes erupt from your weapon." Useful on RLs, shotties when there's barrels around and BFGs. Not sure what the stats should be though. 3d6, still using melee to hit, but no ammo usage? Punching with a pistol still counts as using the pistol, so it'd just take some coding to change the damage rate if the weapon was onyx modded.
Firestorm on an armour? Ummm..... Hellwave pack that goes off with the same probabilty of berserk going off with the Ber trait? Makes you tired though. Unless you went berserk at well. Probably a wee bit OP'd. Maybe just a +20 to fire and plasma resistances would be better.
Firestorm on a melee weapon? Super-high drop-off shotty blast with every attack (ie: a 1 square "ranged" attack with every melee attack, with 33% drop-off. Less damage at normal melee range (66%), 33% at range 2, 0% after that). Again, OP'd, but it sounds cool.
There's millions of things that could be done with weapon or armour packs on things they're not currently used on. Whether they need to be done is another matter, but it could make for some fun combos. Maybe.
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One way to make MAc less good is to make it so it only works if you have a ammo box prepared. Maybe to balance this have you gain the ability to create ammo boxes. (Or maybe ammo boxes automatically get made if you get enough ammo to make one?)
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Firestorm on an armour? Ummm..... Hellwave pack that goes off with the same probabilty of berserk going off with the Ber trait?
I just love the idea ! Destructive, fun, and useless... so firestormish !
No, seriously, I think it could be really great. (btw, the "probability" to proc berserk is fixed (IIRC, take 30% of your max HP before reduction in a single attack). The random aspect is on incoming attacks, not on zerk proc itself.)
@Sereg
Shotguns, guns, and knives are NOT rapids fire weapons... why do you keep thinking this ?
You could as well ask SoG to work with Jackhammer, since storm bolters and Jackhammer are both rapid fire weapons, but SoG only works with the former... it would be the same logic.
MAc is one of the few great masteries (melee, MSS and MAD seem to be the only other ones worth picking to me), so why buff it ? (note that even a bugfix would be a buff, as long as it makes the mastery better.)
If you manage to run out of ammo despite using this pick, you probably just didn't manage your inventory correctly. Personally, I think MAc should be nerfed and use at least 2 ammos per volley. I'd probably rather ask for half of the volley's shots.
Also, don't forget that MAc is not only an ammo saver. Unless you use a laser rifle, it wastes most bullets on walls. This might be the source of your ammo problems.
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The problem with Jackhammer is ...it is an ok weapon, but TH makes unusable.
If devs do not want to nerf Jack working with MAc, then maybe make TH not working with it? Or single shot like people proposed?
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I just love the idea ! Destructive, fun, and useless... so firestormish !
No, seriously, I think it could be really great. (btw, the "probability" to proc berserk is fixed (IIRC, take 30% of your max HP before reduction in a single attack). The random aspect is on incoming attacks, not on zerk proc itself.)
@Sereg
Shotguns, guns, and knives are NOT rapids fire weapons... why do you keep thinking this ?
You could as well ask SoG to work with Jackhammer, since storm bolters and Jackhammer are both rapid fire weapons, but SoG only works with the former... it would be the same logic.
MAc is one of the few great masteries (melee, MSS and MAD seem to be the only other ones worth picking to me), so why buff it ? (note that even a bugfix would be a buff, as long as it makes the mastery better.)
If you manage to run out of ammo despite using this pick, you probably just didn't manage your inventory correctly. Personally, I think MAc should be nerfed and use at least 2 ammos per volley. I'd probably rather ask for half of the volley's shots.
Also, don't forget that MAc is not only an ammo saver. Unless you use a laser rifle, it wastes most bullets on walls. This might be the source of your ammo problems.
Evil, are you familiar with how the Jackhammer works? It fires in bursts. That is the one and only definition of a rapid-fire weapon. Just because it's also a shotgun doesn't make it any less of a rapid-fire weapon, just like the fact that the BFG 10k is a BFG doesn't make it any less of a rapid-fire weapon.
It fires rapidly. It doesn't get any more simple than that.
I didn't say anything about pistols(other then commenting on someone's mention of the storm bolter pistol), and I surely didn't mention knives. I'm not trying to generalize MAc to lots of weapon types - that would be just as foolish as you seem to think. I'm asking about a single very specific case involving a rapid-fire weapon that is affected by one rapid-fire trait already, but not another.
You also ask why buff it, and list the fact that the change is a bug-fix as irrelevant because it's still a buff. Look, if you think MAc is overpowered, great, start a new thread about rebalancing it - hell, maybe it needs it. We all know I'm a terrible player, and the only way I accomplish anything is cheese strats like AoOC, Scout Melee stairdives, and MAc 100/666 runs, so maybe it is abusable, and maybe it could use a change. But that's no reason not to fix a bug =P fix the bug and then rebalance it.
As far as wasting ammo, I do switch to a laser rifle as soon as I find one =P but since, until that point, plasma weaponry is still my primary damage output, I don't really have a choice about the misses, other then using a Hyperblaster(which, by the way, does increase the drain on ammo resources by basically doubling the amount of cells I use for a given time spent firing, so even this is a tradeoff of sorts) or A/S modding a nuke plasma rifle - I can't take Eagle Eye with MAc, which actually seems like a reasonable balance to a trait you consider powerful - sure, I get to use a lot less ammo, but I also can't mitigate the accuracy issues as well as someone without that master trait.
The problem with Jackhammer is ...it is an ok weapon, but TH makes unusable.
If devs do not want to nerf Jack working with MAc, then maybe make TH not working with it? Or single shot like people proposed?
While this isn't my ideal solution, I would agree that Jackhammer should at least be consistent with respect to rapid-fire traits - either it should work with all of them, or it should work with none of them. Obviously I'm partial to the former, but I would say the latter is still better then the current inconsistency. If the devs do indeed agree with Evil that it's not a rapid-fire weapon, somehow, then TH shouldn't work with it.
I also wouldn't mind a single-shot alternate fire being added in this case.
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Alright, everyone stop and take five. You guys made me source dive to sort this out. I really don't like doing that. >.<
Here's what I think. It is a bug. The offending line in the source (dfbeing.pas:1181) specifically tries to isolate weapons that do more than one shot and is not a shotgun nor a pistol, but it gets overridden by presence of MBD or the presence of more than two shots. I'm using "shot" here as "amount of ammunition consumed" -- it's the variable used in the code.
It's a bug. I say so because of the specific isolation code for checking to see if the weapon is not a shotgun nor a pistol. I suspect that the logical premise wasn't considered fully.
I will check with the person who edited that line to see what to do about it.
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And to think I was SO sure there will be nerfing involved when thelaptop shows up in this thread =)
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And to think I was SO sure there will be nerfing involved when thelaptop shows up in this thread =)
You were right. Discussion has been nerfed.
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TH : "With each weapon, you get an extra rapid shot"
MAc : "As long as you use your trusty rapid fire weapons..."
I agree, it's confuse, but imo, the idea is "rather" clear : TH makes you shoot faster with "any" weapon, while MAc only applies to "rapid fire" category.
I don't think having weapons of multiple categories is intended (not that I'm against it, but it seems "too complex", compared to usual doomRL design choices, so, a gun or shotgun shouldn't be considered rapid fire.)
What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me. (but I don't care much, since TH looks like a negative pick to me, outside of MAc build)
About rebalancing MAC, well... of course I'd like to, but there's so much things to rebalance/improve... what I'd need is not a thread, but rather a discussion with the devs about what they want to do with the next versions, so that I know if giving any feedback is worth it (I already made a few, but when I see that even critical LOS bugs don't seem to be on schedule, I don't think it's worth reporting all little ergonomy and design mistakes, since it might be perceived as free unconstructive critics, rather than attemps to make things improve in the right direction.)
Masteries need to be reworked, but lines of sight are a bigger priority to me, and gameplay needs to be improved too.
Cornershooting can be funny a moment, but I'd prefer a deeper gameplay, needing real choices and strategy (more use of giftdropping, real ammo management, no "permawait behind a corner and you're done" anymore...) well, all of this needs a lot of work, plus testing, so I guess it will take time to progress.
The best gameplay suggestion I can remember atm was a recent one : making monster's projectiles work like lost souls, so that we can dodge them (and, in counterpart, nerf that stupid cornershooting). I think this would be a great step to an improved -and more doomish- gameplay, but btw, this would have BIG impacts on the current game.
My first reaction when I read that suggestion was "hey, it won't be possible to finish some level damageless anymore, that's stupid !". But I quickly changed my mind, and wondered : isn't the possibility to complete the game damageless WAY more stupid ?
As you can see, it's a deep and complex topic. :)
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What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me. (but I don't care much, since TH looks like a negative pick to me, outside of MAc build)
The way I understand TH, it represents Doomguy's willingness to keep the trigger pressed just a bit longer, whether the monster he is shooting at is dead or not. That obviously doesn't carry over to the non-automatic weapons.
That's also the reason why I don't like MAc very much - I can't find a similar rationalisation. But that's be. I prefer flavour to gameplay to a big extend.
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TH : "With each weapon, you get an extra rapid(emphasis added to quote) shot"
MAc : "As long as you use your trusty rapid fire weapons..."
What I wonder, though, is why TH gives extra shots to bolters or Jackhammer, while it doesn't increase the firing rate of a normal pistol or missile launcher.
THAT, seems inconsistent to me.
Because TH says an extra rapid shot, implying that, for this ability to take effect, the weapon needs to have rapidfire capability. I agree the wording is not as clear as it could be, but that's what I get from it.
About rebalancing MAC, well... of course I'd like to, but there's so much things to rebalance/improve... what I'd need is not a thread, but rather a discussion with the devs about what they want to do with the next versions, so that I know if giving any feedback is worth it (I already made a few, but when I see that even critical LOS bugs don't seem to be on schedule, I don't think it's worth reporting all little ergonomy and design mistakes, since it might be perceived as free unconstructive critics, rather than attemps to make things improve in the right direction.)
Masteries need to be reworked, but lines of sight are a bigger priority to me, and gameplay needs to be improved too.
Cornershooting can be funny a moment, but I'd prefer a deeper gameplay, needing real choices and strategy (more use of giftdropping, real ammo management, no "permawait behind a corner and you're done" anymore...) well, all of this needs a lot of work, plus testing, so I guess it will take time to progress.
The best gameplay suggestion I can remember atm was a recent one : making monster's projectiles work like lost souls, so that we can dodge them (and, in counterpart, nerf that stupid cornershooting). I think this would be a great step to an improved -and more doomish- gameplay, but btw, this would have BIG impacts on the current game.
My first reaction when I read that suggestion was "hey, it won't be possible to finish some level damageless anymore, that's stupid !". But I quickly changed my mind, and wondered : isn't the possibility to complete the game damageless WAY more stupid ?
As you can see, it's a deep and complex topic. :)
Yeah, there's a lot more discussion that needs to go on beyond this rather minor change to a single mastery and weapon. Like you said, there are definitely some more urgent priorities. I don't know if I entirely agree with you about making changes so significant that they completely remove core strategies - that might be more appropriate for a mod, in my opinion. Still, it's not as though those changes are contrary to the spirit of the game, so if it happens, it happens, and I'll learn to deal with it, just like I'll have to deal with the dual angel rebalancing that's all but inevitable in the next release.
Alright, everyone stop and take five. You guys made me source dive to sort this out. I really don't like doing that. >.<
Here's what I think. It is a bug. The offending line in the source (dfbeing.pas:1181) specifically tries to isolate weapons that do more than one shot and is not a shotgun nor a pistol, but it gets overridden by presence of MBD or the presence of more than two shots. I'm using "shot" here as "amount of ammunition consumed" -- it's the variable used in the code.
It's a bug. I say so because of the specific isolation code for checking to see if the weapon is not a shotgun nor a pistol. I suspect that the logical premise wasn't considered fully.
I will check with the person who edited that line to see what to do about it.
Thanks for checking that out - explains why BFG 10k still works, but Jackhammer and Storm Bolter don't. I'm interested in how that ends up being dealt with.
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You were right. Discussion has been nerfed.
... or was it thelaptop himself, who was nerfed? ;)
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... or was it thelaptop himself, who was nerfed? ;)
When it comes to nerfing, thelaptop is like Chuck Norris. He can nerf himself. Moreover, he can nerf himself so much, that he would become overnerfed. From being overnerfed, he can nerf himself even more, so he would become undernerfed - and overpowered as a result.
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So I guess thelaptop has at last attained the status of a Memetic Badass (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticBadass). It's just as well, with 2dev rarely posting here lately...
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Alright, this is flogging a dead horse, but I don't care. =P
I've meditated hard on this issue, and I think I have a solution. But first, the explanation:
"Rapid shot weapons" are different from "chain-fire capable" weapons. Rapid shot here should refer to anything that fires more than some predefined firing rate, which in the code is approximated by the "shots" property. By default, pistols and shotguns don't count as rapid shot weapons because they fire at most one shot (pistols) or two (double shotgun), and so they will not be affected by the TH bonus. Pistols do get the TH bonus when MBD is in play -- that's not a problem.
Now comes the mess: Pancor Jackhammer. It's basically a fully automatic shotgun, designed for fast disposal of any S.O.B. that happens to be within close range. As a "fully automatic" weapon then, TH ought to apply to it, since "fully automatic" means "rapid shot" (see also GCB at not single-shot mode). But this leads to the case of huge ammo consumption (5 per firing action with 2xTH). Thankfully, they did state here (http://www.moviegunservices.com/mgs_pancor.htm) that the Jackhammer is capable of less-than fully auto shots through careful triggering.
And that's the fix I've applied, to be tested of course in 0.9.9.8 beta when we get there. Like the GCB, alt-reload will allow you to "decide" to relax your triggering finger (fire only 1 shot) or tense your triggering finger (fire the regular 3 shots and thus be eligible for TH). The time cost of selecting how hard you are going to squeeze your trigger is nominal and relatively negligible compared to GCB firing mode changes (it's mental rather than something you need to alter on the weapon). I have also taken the liberty to increase the max ammo count to 10 to further replicate the "true' Pancor Jackhammer, and to make it slightly more ammo chewing for all-out 2xTH fully auto shotgun fire.
Okay, it might not be a fix after all but a hack. But let's see if this works out better to make the Jackhammer an awesome weapon worthy of being a unique.
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Heh, guess that means I've gotta change up the Jackhammer in my Zdoom mod then.
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Nah, wait till it is officially released first. Currently that change is in the repository and not out yet. It will require testing at the 0.9.9.8 beta, which is uh not going to be out that soon. =)
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So it works with TH properly now? Wow. 5 shot shotty. Wow.
But I take it that it doesn't work with MAc still? Either way, I want to find one in 0.9.9.8. Soley for wasting shells (and shell boxes). Thanks thelaptop. It was always what I considered the god-tier shotgun, now it's just even more-so, as well as being snazzy in even more builds. That's good hack-fixing :)
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But I take it that it doesn't work with MAc still?
Yes, it still doesn't work with MAc. MAc affects chain-fire weapons but TH affects rapid-fire weapons -- see my previous post for the differences.
I've ameliorated the massive ammo consumption with my Alt-Reload fix/hack. Thank me only after testing if the fix/hack works well enough. =P
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Yes, it still doesn't work with MAc. MAc affects chain-fire weapons but TH affects rapid-fire weapons -- see my previous post for the differences.
I've ameliorated the massive ammo consumption with my Alt-Reload fix/hack. Thank me only after testing if the fix/hack works well enough. =P
Just a quickie since i'm bogged deep in study atm - I'd like to see the jackhammer apply all shots before knockback, if that's possible at all.
Now THAT would be awesome.
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Not happening. The code to alter knockback is too annoying.
Next!
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Not happening. The code to alter knockback is too annoying.
Next!
How about not making the damage due to dropoff drop as far? A real life shotgun doesn't work like that and that's what the jackhammer is based off.
The jackhammer needs a widdle buff ;_;
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Test the current modifications when 0.9.9.8 beta comes out first before suggesting anything else regarding the Jackhammer.