Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Kornel Kisielewicz on January 19, 2011, 04:54
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Following the footsteps of the poll on Master Traits (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3756.0.html) and preparing to do some juggling in the trait selection, I'd like to ask you also to cast your opinions on the current advanced trait selection. The feedback in the Master topic so far is exceptionally useful for me, and will be the base of a future change, however, to do it I'd also need similar information on the Advanced Traits.
Similarly to the MT poll, you can vote for multiple entries (up to 3), and obviously you should make use of it in this poll :).
So cast your vote and discuss!
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Badass and Shottyman were automatic choices because I'm a shotgun fan for playing, but Badass I'm especially fond of.
Outside of that, Intuition is probably my favourite; for losing out on a lot of sheer power or defense like you'd have other traits, the tactical advantage is... well, maybe it's a little ridiculous.
Dualgunner is bloody awesome for Marksmanship, but I seriously doubt anyone would take it in a normal run - less because the trait itself is bad, but rather because pistols are (or at least seem) one of the weaker weapon choices, unless you were to get exotic/unique pistols, which you can't guarantee, so...
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While I can see how voting on the most used Master Traits can help mix and match end-game fun, it is far less apparent how the Advanced Traits statistics will help, since most people pick the Advanced Traits that will naturally lead into their chosen Master Traits.
One gripe I have is that Dodgemaster works "correctly" now. It feels so wimpified when all one can do is dodge the first projectile -- gone are the awesomeness of dancing about in the battlefield. Nevertheless, any extra amount of dodge chance is always welcome in case of having to dash across that open space.
And who can say no to Whizkid (which, incidentally, leads up to the fabled AmmoChain)?
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Dualgunner is quite good even outside of AoMr because if you trait up your DoomGuy properly, you pistols will be awesome even without uniques.
Intuition is good for CatEye runs, which is the only rapidfire build for me. I am not using AmmoChain because it's too OP.
Shottyman makes Assault Shotgun the best shotgun except uniques, andyou're almost guaranteed to get it on any run for some unknown reason.
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I tend to play a defensive game more often than not, so:
Juggler: Having the right weapon at the right time is amazingly helpful
Badass: Having extra health is always good
Dodgemaster: I like not getting hit...a lot.
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Juggler superb for a 'jack of all trades' build built around speed for survivability. Being able to rifle through your entire arsenal without paying any time cost for switching weapons makes reloading almost an afterthought. I find it especially helpful early on when the only weapons you have access to are the shotgun and the pistol. You can equip two shotguns and rip them off rapidly, duck behind cover, reload both and do it again, effectively doubling your effectiveness until you can find a combat shotgun, chain gun, or SoG 3.
DualGunner coupled with SoG is the bread and butter for the pistol build. Coupled with MGK or SoB+EE you have a lightning fast build with a potentially massive damage output, especially if you find a unique pistol. There's nothing quite like taking down Viles, Mancubi, Knights and Barons before they can get a shot off.
Although commonly associated with AmmoChain, Whizkid offers a huge capacity to expand the capabilities for your weapons, be it a rapid-fire, shotgun or especially a pistol build. Mods can stretch the limits of your arsenal far beyond that which is available for many other builds, and much like Juggler, it's a great trait for 'Jack of all trades' builds.
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Juggler is amazing for any game there is, there's no reason not to take in my honest opinion, well apart from mastertrait games and berserks.
Whizkid is my second favorite, the ability to mod not only your weapons but your armor and boots aswell makes it a really great trait.
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Juggler & Whizkid for me. Badass should probably have been my 3rd vote, but not sure - traits I pick are so dependent on master trait / game mode, and I rarely play non-Angel for now. Intuition is the strongest imo - if I am playing rapidfire I might flip a coin on Intuition vs ammochain.
Hmm my Ao100 target build has Whizkid & Dualgunner, sometimes Badass.
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I can't imagine myself playing without Badass, because... it's simply badass to have 200% hp.
Also, mostly Shottyman or Berserker, depending on the mood I am in.
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I can't imagine myself playing without Badass, because... it's simply badass to have 200% hp.
You forgot the reduction to knockback, which becomes quite useful when running away. =D
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im a fan of whizkid my guns are usually modded to a2p1t1 and also its a requirement for MAc (^^,)
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I choose Dodgemaster and Shottyman, because they make a good synergy.
Third one is probably Whizkid, because it is very powerful if you get enough mods.
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Hmmm... Whizkid would come first, as I always have the (not so good at times) luck I find loads and loads of mod packs. Second is Badass, as I'm the kind of player that always rush towards the enemy, no matter what the hell is waiting for me out there. And last, but not least, Dualgunner, for those AoMr runs, against Barons, Mancubi, Archies... You get the deal.
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For me, there's a difference between most-picked and best. I'm not gonna vote formally but bifurcate the two with reasons.
In terms of most picked, I'd have to say Shottyman, Dodgemaster, and Badass (in that order), if only because a lot of my builds that have significant trees are shotty ones. MFa is a pretty flexible master trait if your primary is still shotguns, and MAD is far more shotty-centric but with a huge bonus for it. By contrast, my rapid-fire builds are usually Fin/SoaB/EE without going for any master trait (with the occasional exception of MAc, which means TH and WK) and my pistol build just adds SoaG first. Other than that, the shotty/explosives hybrid only needs Juggler but WK is a backup. Overall, the shotty-based advanced traits have a much greater synergies than the others. (DG is an exception, but that's not for this thread.)
In terms of best (that is, biggest benefit potential) I'd have to mark Intuition, Dualgunner, then a tossup between Whizkid and Shottyman (in that order). Intuition (at both levels) is quite useful, but monster location gives the player an unparalleled advantage. Dualgunner increases your pistol DPS output by ~75% and lowers the necessity to reload in a tight spot. Whizkid modding can be a huge benefit (P3 combat shotgun is godlike) and releases a huge potential out of weapons (like B3 BFG or P2T3/P3T2 pistol); with assemblies it's even more flexible. Shottyman is free reloading each step, allowing the player to make use out of dodging, hit-and-run, or whatever is necessary.
This isn't taking into account the traits that come before it, mind you. The synergy of basic-advanced traits is just as important as advanced-master ones.
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For me, there's a difference between most-picked and best.
I really have to second this, hard. I picked Whizkid, Dodgemaster and Juggler. It's not like I don't use Berserker, I play melee a lot, but I'm only going to pick it when I'm playing melee. Whizkid? Anyone can benefit from it as long as you're not terribly unlucky with mods, and even then there are some guaranteed. It's easy to slide it in there with whatever else. Dualgunner, not so much. Doesn't mean I think they're bad traits, they're just the most flexible for my builds. I don't ever use Intuition, but that's more down to not making builds with two levels of EE to unlock it.
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'Most picked', 'most powerful' and 'most favourite' are indeed all very different questions.
Most picked: A little hard to answer since I varying use all of them, depending on which badge I'm aiming for. On the occasions where I'm not restricted (eg. standard run) I mostly use Triggerhappy or Dualgunner builds, otherwise Badass gets shoved in somewhere.
Most powerful: Intuition is stupid useful, although a little less so on the harder difficulties when there are invariably enemies EVERYWHERE. If you're lucky with mods then Whizkid can directly power you up more than any other trait, no question.
Most favourite: Shottyman is just fun to use, Juggler makes hoarding and tactically selecting weapons much more enjoyable. Whizkid I enjoy the least for the times you pick it but then find none of the mods you wanted.
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Not necessarily my most picked, but certainly my favourite in order of perceived greatness:
#1 Juggler. It's just amazing. At level 2 you can get a skill that makes you the most adaptable marine you can get. It's like it's your own little "get out of jail free" card with the ability to whip out a RL whenever you need to or switch to your DB shotty for close range. You also become an absolute gun ammo platform with this skill, dual wielding combat shotties or plasma rifles (even without MAc that's plenty of ammo). It even beats shottyman for shotgun usage but is still useful with any weapon. The more weapons you have, the more it scales, so it gets better and better as you go deeper into the game. It's almost at the level of a master trait in terms of usage and you get it so early. It is that good.
#2 Badass. Just for the synergy and the lovely passive defense it offers. You've already got an extra two armour before you get this, so why not have more health to round out the "will-not-die-factor"? It lets you collect those health globes pretty much whenever you want and scales nicely with the inevitable ironman levels in late game. 160 health and +2 armour? Yes please!
#3 Whizzkid. It used to be good for a lot of reasons before. Modding, backpack space (to use up "useless" mods) and it was on the way to Mac. Now in 0.9.9.2 it's even better with assemblies. And it will probably get better still as new versions are released and we get even more advanced and master versions of them. But still, who doesn't want the biggest gun, the spiffiest armour and the sparkliest shoes they can get as they trudge their way through hell?
I've actually been playing a bit of AoI recently and I'm finding I can't rely on a master trait build or even a good no-master-trait trait build very easily. But advanced trait builds rock. Going for something like Fin->Jug->Fin->WK->Ir->Ir->BA or Fin->Jug->Ir->Ir-BA-Fin-WK scales so quickly and is so good that the build is over before you know it. You either grab WK early if the mods are kind to you and special levels spawn nicely, or go the passive build and mod out near the end. The build also performs brilliantly in a full game except you still have usually another 3-6 levels of traits up your sleeve before destroying cybie with a barrage of BFG, rocket and plasma fire. Juggler FTW :)