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Messages - STL

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1
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 29, 2006, 07:38 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Tell me at least one that is not listed there, that I should care about ;].

That's the whole point, you should't care about any. :)

Not everyone feels comfortable porting their game between platforms.

Again, this is not for you, it looks like you can take care of yourself just fine.

2
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 28, 2006, 04:37 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
FreePascal IS highly portable. The number of supported platforms is great, and the portability of FreePascal code is a lot greater then C/C++ code

Ok, let me explain:
Portable : You implement your program, build and run it on a single platform. You bring your source code to other platform, fix it for platform differences, build and compile it. Repeat for each and every possible platform you need to support.
Platform Independent: You implement your program, and you are done.

So, portability is not platform independency. Since no one, including the developers of these games, expects this games to work on every platform, it's not a big issue. But everyone wants to support main platforms. Just for the sake of argument, if you used a platform independent language such as Java, there would not be a Linux version, there would be only one version that works both on Windows and Linux (and MacOs, and Solaris, and... well you get the idea).

I've checked out the FreePascal site, and in the main page, they say that they are supporting 9 OS and 4 processors. FYI: C/C++ is supported virtualy on every OS and processor.

Quoting: Santiago Zapata
The idea of Game and UI being independant is to allow replacement of these modules via definted "interfaces" so that only one Game has to be mantained but several representations can be provided

Ok, It's just you are considering Game = Logic of the game (internal objects data structures etc), UI = (UI interactions of the user that is based on the logic, which makes the real gameplay experience).

3
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 26, 2006, 07:00 »
Quoting: Santiago Zapata
Yeah, abandon FreePascal and go with Java! ;)

I'm hoping you are not suggesting pascal (or *pascal* ) is platform independent.

Your article can be a good start for beginners. But I didn't understand why would you place UI in a seperate bin. It's rather an interesting idea to split Game from UI, why would you change Game or UI independent from each other?

And again, I'm not saying what Kornel knows/doesn't know/can do/cannot do/whatever. Whether anyone realizes or not, there are people in this forum who want to get started on doing something on their own, I'm merely trying to help them.

4
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 24, 2006, 20:55 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
I'd suggest C#, VB# if you want to annoy the hell out of Linux people, and put your 0,02 M$ into the monopoly :)

 1- They are free. See Visual Studio 2005 Express Edition.
 2- Linux is not for gaming :). Also I believe there are some C# and VB# compilers for Linux around, but I might be wrong.

If you want 95% platform independency, go with Java. Java is flexible, almost completely platform independent, and very slow.

If you want to run your game on multiple platforms, IMO, the most efficient way of doing it it using C++ or C. You should split your game into two parts: Game and Platform. Game should only be data structures, algorithms etc for your game. Platform should be the part where you interact with OS (graphics, sound, file system etc.). Why C/C++? Because every platform (Windows, Linux, MacOs, Solaris etc.) has a compiler for them.

5
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 23, 2006, 23:27 »
Quoting: Anticheese
The problem with MMOPong is that you have conflicts of commands coming in on both sides and without any communication between teams you are just going to be stuck without a moving paddle, The best solution would be to have a visible queue of people and give each person 10 seconds.

Why do you assume there are only 2 paddles? What about 4, on each side of a square, or, 6, cubic version with 3D graphics, or just 2 sides with more than one paddle (of different colors to "parry" different colored balls) each. IMHO, every paddle should have only one controller. The possibilities are endless, although some of them are lacking feasibility. Also I wouldn't say MMOPong, something feasible with pong in Massive Multiplayer Online genre, IMO, would not look like Pong anymore.

Quoting: Santiago Zapata
Where?

I was meaning here. I check this forum at least 5 times a week, any discussions can go on in off-topic forum, so everyone can contribute. I'd say that is the best way.

I'd suggest C#, VB#, J# or Java for any kind of game, especially if it's multiplayer. I'd go with C++, C or Pascal for games that really need to squeeze resources out of the computer.

6
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 23, 2006, 08:31 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
is a real pain for a roguelike design :/.

That, I don't argue, definitely it will require time spent on it. But "best" is not often same as easy. That was my point. Also, something that looks as easy, can easily turn out to be taking more of your time in the end. That's why, I always prefer flexibility & robustness over easy. But yet, every artist has their own brush.

And just for the note: since the topic is on roguelike, it's very very hard to make something (sensible) that has problems with memory consumption or processing speed. Given any time, you can have at most 1600 items to work with. 1 kb each, and rest of your code etc, you have 2 MB memory consumption. Processing is not a big deal, since it's turn based.

Quoting: Santiago Zapata
Unless he is developing a roguelike, it may be hard to understand ;)

I am. Sort of. If you like pain, try a simple (pong?) realtime (as opposed to turn based) multiplayer game with more than two players playing at the same time. That problem gets real interesting real quick.

Anyway, If anyone needs to discuss something about computers, you know where to find me. I'll silently wait for next DoomRL version.

7
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 22, 2006, 04:35 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Paradoxicaly this *IS* the best approach

Not really. In fact, the truth of the sentence depends on the meaning of "best". In true OOP fashion, The terrain should be an object, with every feature (I mean square, character, or whatever you call them) being an object inside that. I'm not saying the array would not be there, but it will not be exposed. This approach allows terrain to "behave" pretty easily, i.e. traps. This approach allows you to centralize the terrain related logic, so that tomorrow you can have non-squared terrain with minimum change in your code (not that you should, but you could). Always leave room for expansion.  
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
believe me, I know what I'm doing

I didn't want to imply that you do not know what you are doing, I'm just trying to make what you are doing better, so that you can be better, so that you can really achieve something great(er) in the future. I like the fact that all by yourself you are achieving something that is loved by many people. Which makes me believe you have a great potential.

8
Requests For Features / General Progress Tracking -- Revisited
« on: September 21, 2006, 07:14 »
Don't tell me you are keeping track of everything by their apperance!

Correct (meaning less hassle & easy to implement , maintain and extend) solution is to have logical data separate from the visual one.

If you have them separate, then it should be no problem to add a some new entities in your datastructure, even if thats an int array. Assuming the Pascal version/clone? you are using is object oriented (i.e. derived from Object Pascal), it'd be 10 minutes of coding.

If first sentence actually describes what you are doing right now, or even if it des not, I believe I can help you with general desing and other theoretical aspects of your game. If interested, let me know, so that I can give you an e-mail address that I check more frequently.

9
Announcements / Beta Testers forum open
« on: September 08, 2006, 04:33 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
That's the whole point of closed betas isn't it?

Define "closed". From where I stand, it looks like it's open to everyone. :)

I think I'm the only one who does not request access to the beta. Actually,  I'd like to but, I don't really have time for that.

As an idea, maybe you can follow many other software products, and have beta available to everyone, and with large font you can say, it's unstable (if it really is).

10
Requests For Features / Creatures attacking another?
« on: August 15, 2006, 08:30 »
Quoting: Aerton
Due to nature of the game, it's much easier than it was in the first-person shooter.

LOL, Nice joke.

11
Discussion / Thermonuclear Bomb Question
« on: July 15, 2006, 08:22 »
For sure: it does spawn without any monsters killed.
For sure: You can get more than one.
For sure: You can get it below lvl 14. (I didn't make past level 14 yet, but I had a game I had two nukes)
Guess: It has a spawning probability that increases by level, probably peaking around 16-18.
Guess: Only former humans spawn with inventory, and they are only spawned with their weapon, and some ammo. None of the monsters can spawn with any other item.
Guess: The game does not make sure that you get a nuke or not, it's just you are lucky or not.
Guess: Even if the nuke has been spawned, it might be destroyed is some blast.
Deduction: If the cheated game did not result in getting a nuke at level 19, after many trials, it may not be spawning on level 19.
Guess: It's spawning on level 19 (hence you were just unlucky to get it if you didn't)
Guess: Items probably have a min level of spawning, and after that, they get an increased probability of being created.
Guess: Items probably have a max level of spawning, and after that, they are not spawned anymore.
Guess: The items have a spawning chance of
|(their optimal level)- (Current Level)| / c
Where c is some constant.
Guess: Items are probably created with the following logic:
1- Each level has a number of items that it wants to create.
2- For each item, game decides it's type
3- For each item, game decides it's location.

The type decision is probably made by : an item being of type a is
(probability of a)/ (sum of all probabilities of all items)

Guess: probably at least 70% of this post is true. :)

12
Requests For Features / Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« on: July 07, 2006, 05:42 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Unfortunately that would clutter up the inventory space.

Uhh.. How so?

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
I play around with the idea of making persistent levels (with the possibility of going back) -- that would make it a lot less random.

Agreed.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Cybie and Spider included? :-P

Cybie (?) yes, Spider no (at least not everytime). Spider has instant hit chaingun.  I don't remember ever dying against Cybie (at least in it's level)...

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Unfortuately with the current speed system it's impossible to say wether the enemy WILL manage to make a shot on the next turn. BTW, there's no Bold in the ASCII standard :/.

It doesn't have to guess when the enemy will mange to make a shot. It just needs to split action into two. If it takes 10 turns for an imp to fire, it can be divided into 2 actions, 9 turn ready to fire, and 1 turn fire. this would make it so that you almost always do see it getting ready to fire. If it takes 5 turns to get ready and 5 to fire, then you'll see it getting ready half of the time etc. Only trick in implementation is that the getting ready to fire must be followed by fire. There is no bold in ASCII "Standards" but If I remember correctly there was a way of putting bold characters on the console. I'm not sure though, maybe I'm confusing with something else. However, it does not have to be bold, but I think it should be subtle.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
... maybe I'll add it as an option for those less artisticaly inclined

Please do :).

Quoting: Turgor
Right now the game is too easy without this. Adding more monsters to counter the difficulty decrease is useless, as i tend to find it easier when i have to fight a lot of enemies, it just takes longer.

How do you know, did you play without "this" ? :) More monsters are not harder, only if you can manage to take them one by one. When the mysterious improved AI comes, you should (hopefully) not be able to take monsters one by one, since it's really "undoomish", as you guys put it.

Quoting: Turgor
I disagree that the current dodge system is not Doomlike, you can zig-zag to increase the chance you'll dodge projectiles, just like you would strafe in Doom itself. That you can dodge bullets as well is a bit un-Doomlike, but i don't think many people will make it past the surface when bullets always hit, so i beleive for a RL version of Doom this is the best solution.

3 key points here:
- You can zig-zag: so you are constantly dodging (dancing), not firing... As I said before. I can't see how anyone can think this is "doomish". In Doom I/II/III do you walk around to dodge projectiles, fire only when you are standing still?
- Increase the chance: Here is that hidden magic number controlling your life again. You have minimal control over it, and you think this is "doomish"? Can't you dodge a fireball thrown at you at you from the other side of the room in Doom (I/II/III/ + all expansions)?
- I don't think many people will make it past the surface when bullets always hit: Do you really try to dodge (dance around) bullets in first level? Plus I don't have any take on bullets, they are just fine as they are. If you really compare that with doom 1/2 you'd probably get very close results in terms of dodgeability.

Quoting: Turgor
Well, I totally disagree with this. Sure, a lot of luck is involved in this game, but with practice and skill you can minimize the effect that luck has on the game. Right now, i am able to finish 9/10 games i start, because i think and plan ahead. I don't depend on getting lucky enough to find more health packs, i do everything i can to preserve the ones i allready have. I will never assume that i can find more plasma cells later on in the game, I hoard everything i can find.

Without cheating,
How many times you can do "the wall"?
How many time can you get to super duper secret that probably everyone knows by now?
What is the chance that you'll start on a level with lots of barrels around, and 3  former sergeants looking into your eyes?
I'm not saying it's entirely based on luck, but it's much more than a "usual".

Quoting: Turgor
Please don't do this, unless you make items a lot more scarce. One of the best parts of the game is that you have to choose what to take with you to the next level and what to leave behind.

I agree that inventory management is important. So I'd suggest, instead of going back, there can be up levels, which is far easier to implement. Here is how it works:
You get into a randomly generated level (depth n), the level has 1 down ladder to level (depth n+1), may have one special ladder which goes to a special level, and may have a ladder that goes up to another random level (depth n-1). Since if these ladders are frequent they would really boost up the expected experience level of the players, I'd suggest (a combination of) these to prevent experience boost:
- Up ladder can be destroyed.
- Up ladder appears really scarce (defeating the purpose).
- Players forfeit x% experience (but no leveling down) by going up.
- Up ladders are not spawned, instead, player may choose to go one level up by forfeiting x% experience (but not leveling down).
- Experience gained by each monster is adjusted with your level compared to theirs.

13
Requests For Features / Rogue Like Doom or Doom Like Rogue?
« on: July 06, 2006, 05:34 »
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz
Quoting: STL
- I'd like to have an easy way to switch the item laying on the ground with an item in the inventory, or even something you are wearing.
How do you imagine that "interface-wise"?

Let me explain. There needs to be another key, say "s" (for switch) for arguments sake. When I hit "s" I see the regular inventory window, except that the title says: "Replace <the thing on the ground> with...".

For items in use, when I hit "e", and regular view show up.. when I hit the corresponding key of armor/weapon/boot, I see "Choose Item" window. Items include compatible things in my inventory, "None", and the item on the ground if that's compatible. Only problem I can forsee is the space.. and that can be eliminated in many ways...

Quoting: Aerton

Quoting: STL
10- How about weapon modifications that you can carry, and apply to a weapon? And maybe more than one... Rapid fastload advanced bfg... hell yea.
I'm afraid it may devalue such items, as you will be guranteed to have a muliple-enhanced BFG in every game.

Actually, it adds a little twist. Since real weapon powers are not obvious to figure out. Plus, they do not have to be applicable to every weapon. Or they can be like "Pistol Fastload Upgrade" that are applicable to a specific weapon. Where low end weapon upgrades are common, high end weapon upgrades can be really scarce. If upgrades are specific to weapon, then it allow to have "Pistol Fastload Upgrade MKII"... the possibilities are endless.
 
Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

Quoting: STL
How about "advanced phase device", where you can choose where to go (or do you have that already I never get past lvl 14 yet)?
LoL, that would make two places WAY to easy :>

Quoting: STL
14- The Wall and locked rooms. I believe these suck. There should be a way to get these open without explosives, since there is no guarantee, the player can have explosives (=rocket) at that time. Locked doos can have keys placed in the level.
That's the whole point -- sometimes you can, sometimes you can't :). The main secret of the game also depends on ridiculous luck :D.


Well said, that't the point. Your being successful on the game does depend on ridiculous luck more than knowledge and skill (to think, to calculate ahead). I admit roguelikes really demand luck, but I think this is excessive. From my experience with game desing, if a game requires quite a deal of luck, then people do not prefer to play it against computer.

Quoting: Kornel Kisielewicz

Quoting: STL
Actually 14 gave me an idea, how about c-4 that you can carry around, and deploy (like thermie but much much much smaller blast , say somewhat like barrels?).
I don't see any use for it except for blowing up walls in special levels.

Traps. Well placed time traps. (you can actually kill monsters with this while you are too busy dodging plasma gun shots from A's...)

For move&shoot thing: No matter how much you calculate, you cannot do this. Closest you can do is move around until the enemy is in "wait"  turn, and shoot once, and move again. I believe this is called dancing... also it depends on the speed of the monster and your walking&shooting speed. In doom 1/2 you can kill anything in one-on-one except former humans and archvile if you are in an open space and have only pistol with unlimited ammunition even if you start with 1 health. For slower projectiles, I can see how this messes up with the text UI. For game being easy, let me ask you a question: How many times in total, did you see any monster alone (save bosses) in an open space that you can easily dodge around, please take into account all episodes of doom 1 and 2. For Cyberdemon, if you'd think that would be too easy, i'd modify his behavior so that, he fires 3 missiles at a time in a spread fashion.

Here is a middle ground. Instead of having slow projectiles and shoot&move action, you can implement "Getting Ready to fire" for (at least most of the) monsters. Like:
I see an imp, in a corridor...
..........i.........
Then it readies to fire...
..........i.........
If I notice that, I may choose to forfeit my firing to dodge the projectile.
the imp fires to the location where I was at the point of "ready to fire". It can also choose to fire a location I can dodge, without knowledge of my dodge movement (Improved AI.. there you go).
If you didn't notice the i is bold when it's getting ready to fire.

Two more ideas:

1- Actually, I'd say the IU is messed up too much even with instant hit projectiles. The thing is, I see nothing for unexplored, I see dots for explored and not currently visible spaces and dots (again!) for currently in sight spaces. Gray and white are not really distinguishable on most computers, or to most eyes. I'd do that as:
Complete gray (background color) for not explored, Dark gray background and maybe gray dots for explored and not visible (plus as usual, everything is grayed out), and black background with no dots  for currently in sight. This would make things crystal clear.

2- Named monsters and items (maybe dropped by named monsters). It sounds like diablo more than doom, but yet, it can be interesting. E.g. a gray h on yellow background, named "Sarge", and has twice (triple?) the stats of normal gray h, and drops "Mother Gun", which is a special unique pistol (either too powerful (faster-load, 10 clip size and 3d5 dmg) or something that is more balanced (slower reload, 12 clipsize, 3d3 dmg))...

3- (ok I may not know how to count) Grenades...(instead of c-4) Difference from rockets is: a) they might be an inventory item as opposed to reguar equippable weapon, b) they do not explode on contact unless they land on lava or acid, c) they can go as far as your visible range

14
Pre-0.9.9 / Son of gun based character trial...
« on: July 05, 2006, 08:26 »
Two more things:

1- Although it's pretty obvious, this is not an attempt for gunslinger challenge or pistol only play. Rule is more like : use pistol unless you have to use something else.

2- I didn't go into special level because of various reasons: For arena: I had berserk on, I went down the wrong ladder... berserk makes you color blind... I skipped the wall, since I didn't have RL. For hall's of carnage, it's really stupid, but it's berserk again... I wasn't planning to use bfg anyway, but experience would come handy.

15
Pre-0.9.9 / Son of gun based character trial...
« on: July 05, 2006, 08:05 »
Here is the result:
--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (v.0.9.8 (WIN-S)) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 O'Neill, level 5 soldier, killed by a arachnotron
 on level 14 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 88510 turns and scored 20543 points.

 He killed 307 out of 309 hellspawn. (99%)
 He was a real killing machine...

 He stormed the Chained Court.

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health -2/50   Experience 16613/5
  ToHit +0  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +0

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Tough as nails (Level 1)
    Son of a gun   (Level 3)
    Cateye         (Level 1)

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   nothing
    [ Weapon     ]   pistol (2d4) [0/6]
    [c] [ Boots      ]   plasteel boots [8/8] (100%)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] blue armor [2/2] (90%)
    blue armor [2/2] (90%)
    [c] pistol (2d4) [0/6]
    [d] pistol (2d4) [6/6]
    [e] pistol (2d4) [6/6]
    [f] pistol (2d4) [6/6]
    [g] pistol (2d4) [0/6]
    [h] double shotgun (6d3)x2 [0/2]
    fastload rocket launcher (4d4) [1/1]
    [j] 10mm ammo (x66)
    [k] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [l] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [m] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [n] 10mm ammo (x100)
   
  • shotgun shell (x42)
[p] rocket (x8)
    [q] thermonuclear bomb

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    62 former humans
    40 former human sergeants
    31 former human captains
    46 imps
    40 demons
    22 lost souls
    15 cacodemons
    10 hell knights
    5 arachnotrons
    4 former human commanders

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

 He started his journey on the suface of Phobos.
 On level 2 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 3 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 4 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 5 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 He then stormed the Chained Court.
 On level 6 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 7 he found a hellish city.
 On level 8 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 9 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 10 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 11 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 On level 12 he found hellish caves.
 On level 13 he found a hellish city.
 On level 14 he battled through a maze of rooms.
 There finally he was killed by a arachnotron.

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 10 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 10 of those were killed.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Actually the reson for death is the arachnotron that jumped behind a door while I was busy with forgetting to put on a blue armor (My only red got melted in previous battle.. Let's just say, it was the first level where I saw A's, and I wasn't a particularly lucky in my starting position.)

This is a stupid death, because, if I had my armor on, I'd survive the B$%#. It was "mortally wounded" when I fired another shot from my pistol into it's head. (Melee range rules with Arachnotrons).


Well mostly the tactic was sniping monsters, and I think pistol with 3*sog is a nice "sniper rifle". It has a damage comparable to chaingun, and uses a lot less ammunition. For survavibility purposes I carried one shotgun weapon, preferably double barrel, since pistol is not strong in close combat. Also a rocket launcher is a must for area effect. Even a single tough as nails improves survivability drastically.

With pistol a full health hell knight goes down with 3-4 clips (100-120 turns). Cacodemons go down in 2-3 clips.. A's go down in 3-4 clips, anything else takes a single clip at most.

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