Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: tylor on February 12, 2013, 15:34
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Just found Firestorm in armory and made demolition ammo chaingun. And it does very little damage, 3d2x4. There are explosions, but they are too small to make any difference, except damaging myself when I fire point blank. Is there something I am missing?
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It enables a 10mm gun to break walls and gib corpses. Not much point in it for wall breaking in a normal game but it can be a big deal in a pistol challenge or A100. Gibbing corpses on the other hand IS a big deal when dealing with archviles, Nightmare, or angel of darkness.
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Also, I think fire damages are better than bullet ones, since some monsters (at least, revenants) have a bullet resistance.
Tough, after trying a demo ammo minigun once, I've been trongly disappointed : it seems good only for collateral damages :/
This was on my 1st AO100, HNTR, and my minigun slept in my inventory a long time, I never really used it. Finally, I dumped it, since I had a S2B2N1 laser rifle, which was a little more efficient...
So, outside of challenges, I can't see any use for this. (I think gibbing corpses is easier on doors or in fluids than with a crappy weapon)
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Numbers can be tweaked slightly - and they may need to be done so, since assembly is quite heavy.
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about chaingun: I've disappointed too. The best in demolition ammo line is demolition combat pistol which P-modded to equivalent of Anti-freak Jackal.
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To be honest i think that most of assemblies are quite useless, especially in normal games. In my player info they can be divided into three groups: tac boots & hyperblaster (which I assebled 162 and 83 times respectively), userful tools like elephant gun, antigrav boot or cerberus set for Ao100 (20-40 times, ~20% assemblies) and junk that i made just for tech badge. Current mod system is definetly better than previous "stick-all-your-mods-in-luckly-yellow-plasma", but there is still room for improvements.
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Also, I think fire damages are better than bullet ones, since some monsters (at least, revenants) have a bullet resistance.
Both bullet resistant enemies (lost souls and revenants) also have fire resistance. Revenants are less resistant to fire then bullets, but lost souls are more resistant to fire than bullets.
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To be honest i think that most of assemblies are quite useless
I completely agree, and think many experimented players would, too.
My groups are the following (damn, I wish I kept it short -.-) :
[Must have]
Tactical boots (usually, A-modded)
[Usually assembled]
Hyperblaster Saves time and ammo. just awesome...
Tactical armor (usually, A-modded too, btw)
Nanomachic missile launcher Without any doubts my favourite for nano mods ! I'm sure boots are great, but I already have tacs, and may always hope for phaseshift, anyway)
Cerberus armor Preferably, on a gothic/duelist armor or ballistic vest. assembled doens't implies worn
[Rarely assembled]
Piercing chainsaw, since killing angel of death with non-modded throwing knives is quite boring (and is just ridiculous... I hope that guy has been reworked in 0.9.9.7 :/ )
Tactical shotgun Very cool, but not necessary. (and I always use shotgun. a lot)
Cerberus boots For lava pits...
Power armor Simple and efficient
Biggest fucking gun Not that useful, but so much fun :) And I don't see any real use for F mods, anyway. I usually prefer something else on my hyperblaster.
[Nice but useless]
Tactical rocket launcher Most of the time worse than the (insane) missile launcher
Gatling gun Bullets suck... excellent chaingun, tough. But still a chaingun.
Environemental boots Rather good... but not enough for lava pits, and useless elsewhere.
Elephant gun Really damaging, and great knockback, but ridiculously high reload time. Too dangerous for me, even with shottyman. Not worth 2 P-mods, imo.
Energy gun I would need Fin2 to have the necessary WK. Probably useful for sharpshooters, tough. I guess I'll move it to rarely assembled once I played one :)
Storm bolter Probably good with an ammo box, which somehow means sharpshooter, again, for me, but I prefer speedloaders so much... I'm sure it's a rather good assembly, tough.
Assault rifle Waste of A mods...
Burst cannon I don't like playing AoMC, wasting ammo, or picking to much EE
All melee assemblies outside piercing chainsaw (or knife ? but the angel could be killed with a blunt throwing spoon... so, why waste mods in it ?)
About all other assemblies, either too weak compared to normal modded weapons, too expensive, or too restrictive, like stupid cursed armors.
[Special mentions]
Nano-shrapnel (a huge ROFL at losing 5 damages dices at the cost of a nano mod :) The only time I made one, I finished the game using other weapons, since it wasn't even capable of killing formers...
Nanofiber armor Ruins movespeed AND protection at the same time, at the cost of cool mods O_o
Ripper The only time I assembled one, I got a spear before getting the necessary mods. Also, I lost damages compared to my non-modded chainsaw, since I didn't have enough levels in brute, and ripper's accuracy is laughable. It might be better than a chainsaw for a real melee build, but costs so much for so little benefits...
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Don't assemble cerberus armor with gothic. It reduces protection to zero. You'll be stuck with 100% movement penalty and the same resistances/protection than if you'd put it on onyx.
Put it on onyx or duelist.
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[Must have]
Tactical boots (usually, A-modded)
[Usually assembled]
Hyperblaster Saves time and ammo. just awesome...
Tactical armor (usually, A-modded too, btw)
Nanomachic missile launcher Without any doubts my favourite for nano mods ! I'm sure boots are great, but I already have tacs, and may always hope for phaseshift, anyway)
Cerberus armor Preferably, on a gothic/duelist armor or ballistic vest. assembled doens't implies worn
Thank you soooo much, I at last won AoMC/UV thanks to Hyperblaster and NM Missile Launcher. NMML is hilariously effective. Too bad I was one A shy of making Cerberus armor...
And I make tactical boots and armor every game too. Though I am torn between making them as soon as possible, or waiting for WK2.
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I summon Game Hunter as defendant.
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Cerberus armor Preferably, on a gothic/duelist armor or ballistic vest. assembled doens't implies worn
I liked it on phaseshift. Maybe you did not need to wear it all the time, but in a clusterfuck it is safer rather than tactical.
Tactical rocket launcher Most of the time worse than the (insane) missile launcher
May be worse without nano. In normal cases ML is not that much better, imo. And reload is much faster.
Elephant gun Really damaging, and great knockback, but ridiculously high reload time. Too dangerous for me, even with shottyman. Not worth 2 P-mods, imo.
Does it really have that high reload? o.o And as a Shottyman you pretty ignore it.
Assault rifle Waste of A mods...
Burst cannon I don't like playing AoMC, wasting ammo, or picking to much EE
I am not a great fan of those as well.
Nanofiber armor Ruins movespeed AND protection at the same time, at the cost of cool mods O_o
Totally agree here.
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Burst Cannon is actually really awesome if you're doing an Ammochain game and you find the Laser Rifle. You get an extra side and two extra shots while still having an insane accuracy bonus (+6 after the assembly).
Edit: Also the Elephant Gun is good on AotD games where you can never get a Focused Double Shotgun (unless you find a Super Shotgun, of course).
Second edit: I can't confirm because I haven't actually tried it, but I imagine the Nano-Shrapnel mod on a Super Shotgun in a Gunrunner/Shottyhead game would be absolutely incredible. Sure, you're doing less damage, but at the same time you've turned the Super Shotgun into something that can fire without reloading ever.
LAST EDIT: Gatling Gun is a very good upgrade to the Chaingun, even on Ammochain games. +1 sides, 20 more bullets in a magazine, and two more bullets for just two bulk mods? Excellent.
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LAST EDIT: Gatling Gun is a very good upgrade to the Chaingun, even on Ammochain games. +1 sides, 20 more bullets in a magazine, and two more bullets for just two bulk mods? Excellent.
Yes, it is nice. Almost like plasma ;) .
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One of the problems i see with demolition ammo chain-gun is that is heavily increased knockback. if you try shooting into group of enemies, you'll scatter them with usually your first shot.
Pistol problem with knockback is similar. In MSs game P-modded demolition combat pistol knocks target 2 tiles away from you making it problematic to kill things.
Ripper is very good if you're dedicated melee. Totally awesome with MMB or MVm.
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Yes, it is nice. Almost like plasma ;) .
That and you have a backup gun with 60 shots if you run out of plasma ammo.
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+1 to gatling. It eats bullets very fast, but bullets are usually plenty. And if you have SoB5 it does not matter much what you fire, but how fast (and how accurate, which can be a problem)
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To go back to the original post for a second - the wiki says that the damage from demolition ammo is supposed to be (X+2)d2, where X is the dice rolled by the original weapon. In this case, the '6' in the chaingun's original 1d6 is completely ignored and the damage is based off the '1' instead. That said, 3d2 is still a fair bit better than 1d6 - it deals about 30% more damage on average.
As for assembly balance in general, the ones I always find myself making are:
Tactical Boots, Armour, Shotgun: Everybodys' favourites. Moving fast and shooting often is obviously way more powerful than almost anything else.
Micro Launcher: A perfect compliment to the average no-EE no-Wiz shotgun run. Is vastly inferior to the missile launcher, but is easier to get and what else are you spending tech mods on?
More situational:
Chainsword: A must-have for certain challenges and malicious blades runs.
Gatling Gun, Hyperblaster: I don't do rapidfire runs often, but these are both nice when I do.
Grappling Boots: Melee-only. Tech mods would otherwise be worthless to a melee character, so I'll sometimes take 50% less knockback. Melee characters are also the only people with enough inventory space to consider boots-swapping, so you can take them off if you want to run fast or be propelled by an explosion.
Speedloader Pistol: The simplest pistol to get, I generally don't get Wiz in my AoMr runs.
Others worth mentioning:
Literally anything that requires a special mod: Isn't worth mentioning. Aside from nano mods, I never think about assemblies when I use a special mod.
Tactcial Rocket Launcher and Focused Double Shotgun: Both intrigue me, but I never go for Wizkid in a shottyman run.
Assault Rifle: I wish I could get this to work, but you need TH 2 and Wiz 1 and by then it just isn't worth it uuugh
Piercing Blade: I made this for the achievement once. It says '+2 die if you put the power mod on first' - does this mean 6d6 or 4d8? Either way, a single bulk mod gets you to 5d6 and armour really couldn't be any less of a problem to a melee character who can deal upwards of 40 damage in one shot without even trying.
Elephant Gun: I'm a bit surprised to hear this one get attention too. Its main upside over the double shotgun seems to be ammo efficiency (more damage per shell AND less damage falloff) but this doesn't matter at all to a shotgunner. The double shotgun puts out more damage per turn, the tactical shotgun fires faster (and has even less falloff), does this have a niche between them?
Fireproof Armour: I always forget this exists! I generally try to agility-mod my red armour, but most endgame enemies deal fire damage (and only revenants will ever melee you, really) so we should all try to remember to make this just before Hell.
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Piercing Blade: I made this for the achievement once. It says '+2 die if you put the power mod on first' - does this mean 6d6 or 4d8? Either way, a single bulk mod gets you to 5d6 and armour really couldn't be any less of a problem to a melee character who can deal upwards of 40 damage in one shot without even trying.
Piercing blade has a bug that makes the order of mods matter for determining the final output for the assembly. That said, Power Mod on a melee weapon is +1 sides, not dice (wiki was wrong). Piercing Blade on a combat knife would be 3d5 (P mod second) or 3d6 (P first) and piercing chainsaw would be 5d6 (P second) or 5d7 (P first).
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I see other people are finally seeing the problem that I've been harping about for a while with explosive weapons, in that Knockback is calculated before damage.
Demolition Ammo is a great concept and could be very useful, if not for this fact.
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I might be alone in this, but I think the Elephant Gun blows other shotguns out of the water. If I'm going for a shotgun focused build it is my primary weapon. Tactical Shotguns are great, especially when you're not getting shotgun traits, but they can't really compete with an Elephant Gun when you have the appropriate traits. Shell efficiency, the larger cone of fire, and higher damage/knockback all make it fantastic. The only real downside is when you are cornershooting, but the extra knockback helps offset this, and you can combat it with appropriate use of ammoboxes or even sidestepping if you move fast enough.
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Yes!
I have always been a silent supporter of the Elephant Gun and I almost always get it when Im doing a shotty build. In fact, since they moved Combat Shotty to later levels, I almost never get it over the regular shotgun anymore.
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I might be alone in this, but I think the Elephant Gun blows other shotguns out of the water. If I'm going for a shotgun focused build it is my primary weapon. Tactical Shotguns are great, especially when you're not getting shotgun traits, but they can't really compete with an Elephant Gun when you have the appropriate traits. Shell efficiency, the larger cone of fire, and higher damage/knockback all make it fantastic. The only real downside is when you are cornershooting, but the extra knockback helps offset this, and you can combat it with appropriate use of ammoboxes or even sidestepping if you move fast enough.
Absolutely agreed. However, the Focused Double Shotgun/Super Shotgun is even better if you can make it/find it. Sure, it loses a little in ammo efficiency, but the damage boost is worth it, especially if you are playing MAD.
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However, the Focused Double Shotgun/Super Shotgun is even better if you can make it/find it. Sure, it loses a little in ammo efficiency, but the damage boost is worth it, especially if you are playing MAD.
...unfortunately playing MAD Fin and WK traits are blocked and focused double shotgun can't be assembled anyway. I try focused double shotgun once and IMO this one of worst assemblies. Super shotgun fine and moddable. But focused shotgun... even with P-mod it only = unmodded super. Elephant gun assembly much more useful.
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It really is a shame how far the assault rifle has fallen. I made it nearly every ammo chain game when it first came out because of its amazing accuracy and fire rate. Now the fire rate bonus is gone and it's far less accurate, on top of the double ammo cost.
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It really is a shame how far the assault rifle has fallen. I made it nearly every ammo chain game when it first came out because of its amazing accuracy and fire rate. Now the fire rate bonus is gone and it's far less accurate, on top of the double ammo cost.
Kornel does not play this game, why should he make useful assemblies ;) ?
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I usually make a gatling gun instead of an assault rifle nowadays. Not like I have much else that I'd want to put a bulk mod on.
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I often dump bulk mods onto a BFG just for ammo storage. It's really nice to be able to store 220 plasma cells with a B3 BFG, especially since I rarely use BFGs. That might be changing in this version, though.
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Yeah, I quite often throw bulk on the BFG and red armor if I'm not using it for an assembly.