Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: Evilpotatoe on February 21, 2013, 04:50
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Ok, I think anyone has ideas abous pros and cons for allowing save in N!
I'll try to sum them up without spoiling myself by searching for older posts. Anyway, for once, I think a fresh one will do good :)
Cons :
- Bah, just leave your computer running... it doesn't cost much.
- Saving lets you save-scum, it's bad, booh !
- Everytime you save, John Carmack kills a kitten. Please, think of the kittens.
Pros :
- Save-scumming is not the only way of cheating, anyway.
- Would allow to use the save feature for what it is intended to do: to continue a game later !
- Easiest request to implement ever.
My point of view :
- Leaving computer running :
would prevent me from sleeping, isn't an eco-responsible behaviour, increases power bill, is subject to power failures, makes the "game length" stat irrelevant, and needs to keep the game running if you want to play something else for 1 hour, day or week... well, do I need to say more ? - About save scummers :
I dont care. There is, and will always be, cheaters everywhere anyway. Also, currently, anyone can edit and post a fake mortem... why don't people care about this ? - Other ways of cheating :
I don't know about you, but when I saw I couldn't save in N!, my second reflex (first was suiciding) was to think about ways of bypassing this. Several came to my mind :
- I added a bind to crash the game, calling function "save_game_please". since the game crashes, I get my save ! Could have completed N! AoPC with a lvl 32 character using this... where is the cheat protection xD ?
The problem, btw, is for legit users : either you crash while/after clearing a level, giving you more XP (and possibly, stuff), or when entering the next (ruining your stats with monsters let alive... something I can't do either). So, for non-cheaters, it doesn't solve the problem at all. - Using a VM... I'm sure most RL players are geeks, and could easily do it. Personnally, I don't currently have one running, and am to lazy to install a VM just for that... but true cheaters are often subject to make some efforts :)
- Editing the game exe/saves, or playing with game's memory while it runs. Here, again, I'm too lazy for that, but if I wanted to cheat... for sure, I would.
Conclusion :
As usual, only legit users are really concerned. Cheaters will find their way to get around this limitation. So... WHY keep it ? while it bothers only fair players ?
I didn't won a single nightmare game yet, mostly because I dont play N!, since I can't save... Gimme some badges please, allow me to play nightmare!, I know it's one if() away... so, why not add it in 0.9.9.7 ?
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Because it is N! and Kornel made a major design decision.
Same thing as to why you will not hear official word on how to wield the DragonSlayer.
Perhaps we should add code that does not award N! medals/badges when a crashed-save is detected... that is also only an if() away...
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or just prevent crash saves on N!
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or just make it so N! never crashes ;)
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Bah... this isn't the point. "fix" this if you want, I wouldn't have been stupid enough to reveal this exploit if I used it.
My point is that as usual, only legit players are concerned by the restriction, since cheaters will always have techniques to bypass what they want.
Do you thik you can prevent people from editing the exe, or editing the game's memory ? I don't think so.
Same for game running in a VM, and those are just the few example I found, without thinking in deep about it, or beeing a cheating expert.
More importantly, I don't think Kornel or any other dev should lose time on this... it's their choice, of course, but I think fighting this is a loss of time.
Anyway, maybe I should have just asked this :
Since the initial goal, of cheat-prevention isn't reached, WHY continue handicapping fair players ?
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Has N! cheating been a real issue around here?
EDIT: and I mean 'real' as opposed to theoretical
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Personally, I've never really had an issue with not being able to save on N! difficulty, but I still would like there to be some kind of exception for N! Ao100 games, since those take a really long time, (at least for me) and all it takes is a one second power blip to ruin 1 day's (or more) work.
This especially applies to a certain new challenge mode being introduced in 0.9.9.7. *You* know which one I'm talking about, Kornel. ;)
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This especially applies to a certain new challenge mode being introduced in 0.9.9.7. *You* know which one I'm talking about, Kornel. ;)
That is supposed to be a grind, not fun. =P
Since the initial goal, of cheat-prevention isn't reached, WHY continue handicapping fair players ?
Are you kidding? N! begins with the question:
Are you sure? This difficulty level isn't even remotely fair! [y/n]
And you're complaining about the continual handicapping of fair players?
Cheat-prevention is not impossible. But it is possible to raise the bar of cheating to the point that the effort to cheat becomes much more than just you know, playing the game. Also a design decision. If you can convince Kornel, I won't have anything else to say on the matter.
Has N! cheating been a real issue around here?
EDIT: and I mean 'real' as opposed to theoretical
Eh, I know a couple of people who do it, but they don't submit mortems with them. As far as I'm concerned, N! cheating (and publicly showing outcome) is minimal.
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That is supposed to be a grind, not fun. =P
Nevertheless, my point still stands. You know what's worse than getting to N! level 90 only to lose it all to a power failure? Getting to N! level 590 only to lose it all to a power failure! :P
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Nevertheless, my point still stands. You know what's worse than getting to N! level 90 only to lose it all to a power failure? Getting to N! level 590 only to lose it all to a power failure! :P
That's a good reason for you to invest in a UPS, which you should be getting anyway if you are "serious" about your computers. =)
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That's a good reason for you to invest in a UPS, which you should be getting anyway if you are "serious" about your computers. =)
Imagine it:
On lvl378 power fails.
You get 90 minutes left on your UPS.
Race against time starts now! Face your doom or be fast and victorius!
Actually you can just hybernate your PC, but that's no fun.
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On lvl378 power fails.
You get 90 minutes left on your UPS.
Race against time starts now! Face your doom or be fast and victorius!
That would make a pretty damn awesome scary mortem.
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That would make a pretty damn awesome scary mortem.
I'm sure 2dev would do it with 100% kills and time to spare. :P
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It's not like people care about my opinion, and it's not like I'll ever have the skill to play on Nightmare! anyways, but I agree with the OP completely. From what I've seen, cheating wouldn't be difficult at all.
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It's not hard at all to cheat. The challenge comes in playing legit :)
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Not gonna happen.
N! doesn't pretend to be even remotely fair.
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Why don't you put a pair of Cyberdemons on the stairs of the first floor, then?
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Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and talk a bit about the subject of cheating...
I recognize that people have no particular reason to believe that any of my mortems and any of my 20+ Diamond Badges are legitimate. As Evilpotatoe pointed out, anyone can just edit their mortem and post a fake mortem easily. And I recognize that the fact that I've never posted a video of my playing may lend itself to the opinion that my runs might be fake. (Although, I swear the reason is because I have an ancient, crappy computer which doesn't do any kind of recording very well) :P For that matter, I have to confess that I've had occasion to wonder about 2Dev's runs since, if you'll forgive my language, they don't make any goddamn sense to me! O_o I hesitate to say such things, though, because I realize it would probably make me sound petty and hypocritical to question the authenticity of anyone else's mortems when there's just as much reason to doubt mine.
In any case, what it all comes down to is that the DoomRL forums work by the honour system. We have to trust that people posting their mortems are being honest, because, with few exceptions, there's no way to prove otherwise. Speaking for myself, I just don't see the point of posting a cheating game because it considerably waters down the "achievement." Really, what good would it do me? Would there be anything to feel good about that? Does it really give cheaters some sense of accomplishment to know that they fooled people? I really don't know, because I can't identify with that feeling. I mean I admit that I did some save-scumming back when I first discovered the game and I was still figuring things out, (like the fact that the BFG10K hurts you) ;) but to share such games with people just seems pointless to me. Those cheating games I played were solely for the benefit of my own learning and nothing else.
Anyway, I forgot where I was going with all of this, so I think I'll leave it at that. :P
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about saving:
- original DOOM not allow save game on N! (and famous IDDQD - cheats too)
- N! is a challenge. No saving is a part of rules.
- some people win N! games. That is possible and a "top score". Make N! game more easy = devaluate those wins.
about cheating:
- I think it is ok. Game can allow cheating or maybe internal "cheat-codes". Cheating grants understanding of game rules, mechanics and possibilities.
- but from other side of course such a mortems are meaningless, do not post them )
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If someone wants to cheat they can cheat. I don't have a problem with it by itself; it's practically a level of play all its own. If you're cheating so that you can test different setups or practice future levels, great. I did. If you're cheating just because you want to win quickly without being any good I look down on you. And if you're cheating so that you can have an awesome mortem you're a sad person indeed (though sometimes people get interesting mortems and acknowledge they were cheating--that's fine too).
So people cheat. That doesn't mean we should immediately reverse course and start sprinkling players with ammo and medkits. This is rogulelike land, not Mario Party, and people have certain expectations. We're not interested in a happy bubbly world where every player is victorious. We want a brutal world filled with unholy abominations, built on the twisted backs of dead characters. We want demons terrorizing Earth with impunity. We want mankind relegated to the dust bin of oblivion. Our players can recognize each other on the street by their thousand yard stares, and that's the way we in roguelike land LIKE it.
*breathes deeply into paper bag*
My point is, saving in N! is a silly request because N! has a different target audience. There are four other levels of play that we've been strong-armed into including which DO allow saving along with a whole host of other genres structured around such outdated concepts as 'mercy' and 'fair play'. And you should be thankful for that. Because if I had my way...
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...there would be no saving at any difficulty level!
After all, isn't this supposed to be coffee-break casual?
I support this change 110%! Just be glad I'm not on the dev team :P
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I think it is not coffee-break anymore. And above HNTR, not quite casual.
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I think it is not coffee-break anymore. And above HNTR, not quite casual.
- One person's casual (2DeviationsOut) is another's nightmare (the rest of us).
- Everyone tries to kill everything. You don't have to in order to win the game (there's a reason why Medal of Prejudice exists).
- The higher difficulties do not "unlock" anything more than more achievements -- the first few games that you play and win should be enough to unlock most of the other parts of the game. Now if it were said that all achievements are supposed to be attainable by the "casual" player, I seriously question judgement.
- Remember the old game of chess? You could play it with a bunch of friends when you were young -- each game didn't take that long, right? Now compare that game played by the Grand Masters... one could play it seriously or less so, and that's what DoomRL provides you with, the choice of the level of commitment you want to play at.
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original DOOM not allow save game on N! (and famous IDDQD - cheats too)
What are you saying... ? Of course original doom allowed to save in N! Only cheats where disabled, which is unhandy, but more than understandable, since N! is intended to be a challenge, not just a free respawning targets shooting range.
While it is often abused by poor players, the save is intended to let you suspend your game, nothing more...
I admit it took me years to understand it, since I had taken habits of save scumming when I was young, and few games do any effort to point out you shouldn't save scum. But once I grew a little, I realized this completely negates the point of the game... and started playing doom/quake/warcraft... without ever save scumming.
No saving is a part of rules
Some rules are wrong. It's what I'm trying to improve with this request.
As I and some other posters said, cheating is not a problem, both because most people don't cheat, and because the few cheaters will always be able to, anyway.
Make N! game more easy = devaluate those wins
Out of context, this would be true, but the mistake here is that saving doesn't make game easier. only cheating does (and save scumming is cheating, it sounds quite obvious).
About cheating, I personally think it can be fun, sometimes (I still have a key to give me a quad damage, and another for all weapons & ammo bound on quake... everyone should try this at least once :p).
But removing the difficulty often also removes a part of the fun, and more importantly, prevents achieving something.
For long, I tought I'd play on Hengband in wizard mode, or easy mode, just to discover the game more easily, since I was pissed of by insta-death I didn't even understand, but finally I never did... (and even won 2 or 3 games). The fact is : playing without difficulty isn't interresting... (except maybe for a few people, but I think cheaters just want to show how great they are, caring more about demonstrating their "skills" than playing the game)
Personally, I'd be in favor of adding cheats or "wizard mode" to doomRL, for the reasons you gave. But this is another debate, and such things are way less necessary than the simple ability to save a game.
@yaflhdztioxo :
What do you have against Mario ? Mario is a great game... for speedrunning. or for kids, or just nostalgia.
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(Although, I swear the reason is because I have an ancient, crappy computer which doesn't do any kind of recording very well)
Sounds like a worthy target for a Kickstarter campaign!
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Mario is fun, but at the end of the day it wants you to win. Mario Party on the other hand is not fun at all.
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This is rogulelike land, not Mario Party, and people have certain expectations.
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There are four other levels of play that we've been strong-armed into including which DO allow saving along with a whole host of other genres structured around such outdated concepts as 'mercy' and 'fair play'.
I don't quite understand the point here, because I can't think of any serious roguelike besides DoomRL N! that doesn't allow saving.
As I and some other posters said, cheating is not a problem, both because most people don't cheat, and because the few cheaters will always be able to, anyway.
Quoted for emphasis.
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the few cheaters will always be able to, anyway
I beg to differ. Save scumming is a common form of cheating that is well known and achievable by anyone with basic knowledge of file systems. It's also very tempting as pretty much anyone playing an emulator with save states will tell you.
Hex editing a binary or fixing addresses in memory is not as easy. It's also less tempting; you won't idly find yourself locking your health when there isn't a key bound to it.
There's a serious psychological aspect at play here, and it goes beyond just cheating. I would in fact argue that disabling saves for N! is NOT a feature intended solely to punish save scumming. It's a kick in the balls to everyone and a reminder of what they signed up for. Let 'em crash.
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Hex editing or editing memory addresses may be difficult, but getting the lua source code from doomrl.wad is not that difficult. That's a cheater's dream.
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I don't see how.
With one glaring exception there's nothing in the Lua that shouldn't also be on the wiki. Stats aren't secret.
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Source code can be edited in pretty much any way imaginable.
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Point 1: Putting the Lua BACK into DoomRL is actually very difficult. You're in either memory editing or reverse engineering territory if you want to do that, not to mention knowing how to code.
Point 2: I've yet to see a cheater who, upon acquiring the source code to a single player game, decided to use that boon to create a cheater version for themselves. That sort of thing is usually reserved for multiplayer Quake engine titles, and even there I suspect hijacking DLLs are more common because that's what everyone's familiar with and there's plenty of code out there for 'em.
Point 3: Eventually the DoomRL sources will be released. This is a good thing and I would encourage experimentation. If you want to create your own DoomRL that allows N! saves by all means have at it. But it won't be our DoomRL at that point; it will be yours.
As far as attack venues are concerned, save scumming is the easiest and most common method that almost everyone with basic knowledge of file systems comes up with on their own. Freezing a variable in memory is more involved; it requires using a second program and searching for useful addresses, but if you know what to use and how to use it it's not very hard either. Anything involving editing the binary or the source code would require a great deal more skill, and I generally say the reverse engineers are having fun playing a game of IDA. From the cheating perspective the first and possibly second scenario are the only two worth guarding against. You mostly just want to throw enough barriers to aggravate the casual cheater.
But all of that's moot because we're not trying to protect against cheating, at least I don't think so. People save scum. I know this. Everyone knows this. It's given a wink and a nod all throughout the roguelike community. We just want to screw with you, the player, on Nightmare. Because we are evil. And Nightmare isn't even remotely fair.
>)
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Point 1: Putting the Lua BACK into DoomRL is actually very difficult. You're in either memory editing or reverse engineering territory if you want to do that, not to mention knowing how to code.
Ehh, putting it back in is actually the easiest step of the process, though I don't want to give details on how to do it. Editing things like enemy stats, items, or traits is extremely easy.
Point 2: I've yet to see a cheater who, upon acquiring the source code to a single player game, decided to use that boon to create a cheater version for themselves. That sort of thing is usually reserved for multiplayer Quake engine titles, and even there I suspect hijacking DLLs are more common because that's what everyone's familiar with and there's plenty of code out there for 'em.
It's probably not common, but it is pretty easy if people wanted to do it for DoomRL. It takes a single line change to make hellrunner give a -95% speed boost. I think a non-programmer could figure out how to do it.
Point 3: Eventually the DoomRL sources will be released. This is a good thing and I would encourage experimentation. If you want to create your own DoomRL that allows N! saves by all means have at it. But it won't be our DoomRL at that point; it will be yours.
If people are savescumming, it won't be our DoomRL either. But if we're going to ignore the cheating potential like you suggest, then it just comes down to DoomRL being a dick because it can be. Not the "haha you're dead" kind of dick, but the "haha you have to leave your computer on for 24 hours" kind of dick.
Ironically enough, unless I missed it, the part that blocks N! saves isn't in the lua code, so that would actually be one of the harder things to hack.
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Well, sorear injected the patched files back into memory if I recall correctly after building his own improved Lua decompiler. Everyone else who tried used luadec and built a wad creator/extractor. Neither method is trivial or easy, and if you know of a simpler way I'd like to hear about it.
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I'm gonna give my opinion on this:
Normal N! games do not need save feature, you should be able to handle 25 levels in one sitting.
However..
I do think that Ao100 and the varitations could seriously do with save feature on N!.
Grinds are not fun in one run, people need to have breaks every now and then.
No, leaving your computer running/leaving the program running in the background is not a valid solution, that just hogs resources for nothing.
Remember, this is a video game for gods sake, challenge and fun are what you're most likely playing this for, the latter being a bigger thing.
Unable to save does not fall under either gategory. It's just bad design taking note for the length.
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I do think that Ao100 and the varitations could seriously do with save feature on N!.
How about the ability to earn saves in N!...anyone?
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How about the ability to earn saves in N!...anyone?
Considering the randomness of Ao100 the word earn doesn't sound right..
Random enemy that gives you a soul to save with that is hard to kill?
Kill em all that can be very troublesome in later levels where you need this?
Pull a lever in a gasoline smell level?
"oh great stair gods please accept my offering of large-medpack/exotic/unique?"
ofcourse if it really is that big of issue to limit it, just give a flat set amount of saves to use from the start, use em all and no more saves.
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It could be something straightforward like a Hellgate every 25 levels which acts as an autosave.
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It could be something straightforward like a Hellgate every 25 levels which acts as an autosave.
looks good. Not "auto" but just a save. And exit. But save not in ordinar "save" file but use some other name. May be add encrypted some bytes into one of .wad files. Of course save scumming possible... if backup whole folder)
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@yaflhdztioxo
I got to agree with you on one point : save scumming is clearly the easiest cheating method, and about everyone uses/used it sometimes, but I think only few people use it for cheating purposes.
Thats's why I don't think it's worth screwing the doomRL experience of legit players.
When you say other means of cheating are much more complex, I'm not sure, tough...
I don't have a great experience in cheating, but I remember looking for variables in memory with snes emulators... I'm pretty sure some softwares let you do similar editing with PC games. it might take more time, due to larger memory use, but I guess anyone used to cheat knows some efficient tools, and don't have any difficulty for that.
Also, I'm sure using a VM, while it's a quite heavy solution, is an extremely easy one to apply.
When you say it need computers skills... considering it's a roguelike, I think most people here have some.
I never saw "normal" people playing roguelikes. I'm sure they exist, but among my family or friends, it's like nobody could understand the point of playing such games : not enough gloss, not intuitive, too much retries needed... I believe such games only suit a public of passionate geeks, which is something I'd like to improve too, by making them more accessible (I didn't say easier eh, just... much more intuitive.)
How about the ability to earn saves in N!...anyone?
This one sounds really DoomRL-ish to me !
Makes sense, since it would "prevent" noobies to come and randomly start scumming, but would let experienced players play normally.
Requirements wouldn't have to cripple the game you're playing (tough, medkit sacrifice's idea is funny, but just unfair, when all you want is save your game "in case of", or need to suspend it)
But why not allow saving after first N! game completed ? Or after some number of badges ? (which doesn't looks good to me, since some people will have difficulty to reach gold badges, while other will find diamond are not that hard to get).
Oh, and stop referring to the fact that "N! isn't even remotely fair"... this warning has just been copy/pasted because it sounded cool and is quite true, but taking it at his words just sounds silly, especially here, where it's quoted from original doom to legitimate the absence of saves in N!, while it allowed them.
Respawning enemies firing at you like mad with increased speed and accuracy is unfair, but manageable. having to run 100, or 500 levels in a single session is senseless.
Normal N! games do not need save feature
Nor would a 10000 level game need it. It's just common sense to have one.
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Well, sorear injected the patched files back into memory if I recall correctly after building his own improved Lua decompiler. Everyone else who tried used luadec and built a wad creator/extractor. Neither method is trivial or easy, and if you know of a simpler way I'd like to hear about it.
Well, a lot of it is sort of in plain sight.
- Valkyrie is open source.
- unluac, written by tehtmi and available on SourceForge, decompiles lua files into lua code.
- drlwad.exe, available in the modding forums, can compile wads (with some caveats).
The only really tricky part was getting the encryption key.
Edit: of course, most of the issue is getting the source. If a person already had the source, then it's downright trivial.
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Ah, I forgot about tehtmi's work. Knowing him it probably produces files that compile correctly too, though you lose all the comments, labels, and other fun things that make it almost readable.
I don't think the wad creator is still on the forums or is otherwise easy to find though. But if you have that and have solid lua scripts, yes, you can create your own wad, effectively creating your own game. Though I still think memory editing is quicker and easier.
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I'm gonna give my opinion on this:
Normal N! games do not need save feature, you should be able to handle 25 levels in one sitting.
Depends on the way you play. If you take your time trying to kill every monster out there (for a 100% YAAM), then it may take longer than "one sitting". Maybe even more than two.