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 1 
 on: April 17, 2025, 10:57 
Started by Kantarza - Last post by Omega Tyrant
Very nice to see the progression continue, and to see someone finding my progression thread useful!

Quote
Attracting attention with a pistol and then punching a monster (with Brute) from behind the doorway works well. Probably something to remember for future N! runs.

Yeah luring enemies into doors and meleeing them (or killing them in a way that won't knock them back) is one of the core strategies of N! (and Angel of Darkness), upcoming changes to how kill% works in 0.9.9.9 would render such corpse disposal strategies no longer completely necessary, but would still be handy to know to permanently get rid of any troublesome enemy.

Quote
Dodging formers bullet shots is not hard and saves a lot of damage

This is actually a 0.9.9.8 thing, currently dodging is bugged in a way that makes dodging everything (that can be dodged) have a 95% dodge rate regardless of no dodge-boosting factors. Normally with dodging pistol and chaingun fire, you only have a 10% dodge chance at base that increases by 3% for each tile of distance, so without any HR, you would get shredded from repeatedly approaching them in the open without the aforementioned dodging bug. So do keep that in mind if you reattempt this badge in 0.9.9.9! (where this bug has been already fixed)

Quote
Monsters who wall-slide up on you won't fire a ranged attack. For some reason I thought they did.

And this is a core part of why corner shooting works :p

Quote
If you pistol shoot a former captain and you hear them use a medkit, your next shot may still kill them!

Small medkits do heal a percentage amount (2 HP + 25% of the monster's health), which results in formers getting 5 HP back from them, so yes a sufficiently damaged former could have less than 9 HP after using a small medkit and thus be still in killing range for a Pistol.

Quote
Using a shotgun at long distance is probably ok. Probably.

I generally wouldn't risk this unless it's something bigger than an Imp you're shooting at and you're absolutely sure there's nothing behind out of vision that could get killed, very high damage rolls from even an unmodded Shotgun can one-shot a Former or Imp from long distance (or they could already be damaged from other factors like spawning in damaging fluids or getting telefragged, or you could easily blow up a barrel right out of your vision). If you used the Double Shotgun's single fire on the other hand, that could be safe, since it can't hit stuff outside your vision (except for one tile out in very specific angles), and it has such steep dropoff that even max damage rolls will fail to one-shot Formers and Imps near the edge of your vision. Hmm maybe I'll try a Double Shotgun when I reobtain this badge in 0.9.9.9's official release.

 2 
 on: April 17, 2025, 09:00 
Started by Kantarza - Last post by Kantarza
Took quite a few goes to get started but the first TaN after Vampyre eased the pressure substantially. Found a mid-late nano to build powered red armor and that sealed the deal.

Something @Omega Tyrant shared (https://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,8862.0.html) that made a big difference:
* You only have to kill the monster with your fists. Wounding is ok (and in my mind necessary in general).
* An unmodded pistol won't kill any monster (unless you miss and hit a barrel). OT also shared that a single SOB rank or SOG won't hurt either (but it's not much point in this run).

Some things I learnt:
* Attracting attention with a pistol and then punching a monster (with Brute) from behind the doorway works well. Probably something to remember for future N! runs.
* Dodging formers bullet shots is not hard and saves a lot of damage
* Monsters who wall-slide up on you won't fire a ranged attack. For some reason I thought they did.
* If you pistol shoot a distant monster from a doorway, they'll come into the doorway (see above).
* If you pistol shoot a distant monster and then run to the doorway, they won't necessarily follow you to the door. Instead they'll wander around. Don't try to shoot them again! You might kill them.
* If you pistol shoot a former captain and you hear them use a medkit, your next shot may still kill them!
* Using a shotgun at long distance is probably ok. Probably.

Some notes about fist-only from Omega Tyrant that I wish I had known at the start:
* Meleeing a monster with a non-melee weapon will not invalidate the run
* A monster shooting at you and blowing up a barrel while you wield another weapon won't invalidate the run
* Nuking doesn't invalidate the run (unless you aren't invincible!)

And then:
* Going to the JC level and failing will invalidate your run because spawned monsters will prevent your 100% claim

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DRL (0.9.9.8a) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Kantarza, level 13 Cyberdemon Colonel Marine,
 defeated the Mastermind at the City of Dis.
 He survived 89131 turns and scored 188168 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 49 minutes and 39 seconds.
 He wasn't afraid to be hurt plenty.

 He killed 791 out of 791 hellspawn. (100%)
 This ass-kicking marine killed all of them!

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 7
  Levels completed : 7

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Cyberdemon's Head          Killing the Cyberdemon w/o taking damage
  Medal of Prejudice         Won with 100% kills
  Shotgunnery Cross          Won & killed only with shotguns/fists
  Marksmanship Cross         Won & killed only with pistols/fists
  Sunrise Iron Fist          Won & killed only with your bare hands
  Hell Armorer Pin           Clear Hell's Armory/Deimos Lab
  Strongman Gold Badge       Win standard game using knives/fists HMP
  Strongman Platinum Badge   Win standard game using only fists HMP
  Strongman Diamond Badge    Win standard game fist-only HMP/100% kills

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #>#####################................................####
  ######################...............####...............###
  #####################.......####.....####.....####.......##
  ####################........####.....####.....####........#
  ###################.........####.....####.....####.........
  ##################..........####..............####.........
  #################..........................................
  #################....####............................####..
  #################....####............................####..
  #################....####............................####&.
  #################....####............................####..
  #################..........................................
  ##################..........####..............####.........
  ###################.........####.....####.....####.........
  ####################......X%####.....####.....####........#
  #####################.......####.....####.....####.......##
  ######################...............####...............###
  #>#####################................................####
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 120/60   Experience 70708/13
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +6  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +9

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Marine

    Finesse          (Level 3)
    Tough as nails   (Level 3)
    Brute            (Level 3)
    Berserker        (Level 1)
    Badass           (Level 2)
    Vampyre          (Level 1)

  Bru->Bru->Bru->Ber->Bad->MVm->Fin->Fin->TaN->TaN->Bad->TaN->Fin->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   powered red armor [5/5] (92%)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   nothing
    [c] [ Boots      ]   plasteel boots [2/2] (82%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nothing

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] missile launcher (6d6) [4/4]
    [b] duelist armor [2/2] (100%)
    [c] Azrael's Scythe (9d9)
    [d] large med-pack
    [e] large med-pack
    [f] large med-pack
    [g] large med-pack
    [h] large med-pack
    [i] phase device
    [j] homing phase device
    [k] homing phase device
    [l] envirosuit pack
    [m] envirosuit pack
    [n] power mod pack
    [o] power mod pack
    [p] power mod pack
    [q] technical mod pack
    [r] technical mod pack
    [s] bulk mod pack
    [t] hatred skull
    [u] tactical boots [0/0] (100%)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    bullet     - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    melee      - internal 60%   torso 85%   feet 60% 
    shrapnel   - internal 60%   torso 60%   feet 60% 
    acid       - internal 80%   torso 80%   feet 95% 
    fire       - internal 80%   torso 95%   feet 95% 
    plasma     - internal 80%   torso 80%   feet 80% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    66 former humans
    88 former sergeants
    30 former captains
    64 imps
    41 demons
    312 lost souls
    32 cacodemons
    22 hell knights
    17 barons of hell
    40 arachnotrons
    9 former commandos
    19 pain elementals
    4 revenants
    18 mancubi
    9 arch-viles
    5 elite former humans
    5 elite former sergeants
    2 elite former captains
    2 bruiser brothers
    1 shambler
    1 lava elemental
    1 agony elemental
    1 Angel of Death
    1 Cyberdemon
    1 Spider Mastermind

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 7 he marched into the Military Base.
  He purified his fellow comrades.
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 9 he entered Hell's Armory.
  On level 9 he found the Grammaton Cleric Beretta!
  On level 9 he found the Cybernetic Armor!
  On level 9 he assembled a tactical boots!
  He destroyed the evil within and reaped the rewards!
  On level 12 he found the City of Skulls.
  He wiped out the City of Skulls.
  On level 14 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He cleared the Lair, kickin' serious spider ass!
  On level 16 he found the Tower of Babel!
  On level 19 he assembled a power armor!
  On level 19 he invaded the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 19 he found the Azrael's Scythe!
  He then destroyed the Unholy Cathedral!
  On level 22 he entered the Lava Pits.
  He managed to clear the Lava Pits completely!
  Then at last he found Dis!
  On level 24 he finally defeated the Mastermind.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You're going
 berserk! You need to taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 The Spider Mastermind hits you. That hurt! You're going berserk! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind flinched! You need to
 taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Spider Mastermind. The Spider Mastermind dies. Congratulations!
 You defeated the Spider Mastermind! Press <Enter>...
 You feel relatively safe now.

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 152 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 111 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 2 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 37 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 2 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 22 killed the bitch and survived.
 13 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

 3 
 on: April 15, 2025, 10:07 
Started by Kornel Kisielewicz - Last post by Kornel Kisielewicz
Beta 7 is up!

This one is VERY small feature wise, because there have been tons of trait code changes and I'd really like to test the stability of those changes ASAP.

There is however one huge change that will affect existing strategies - the enrage timer. At around 15 minutes ingame-time (around 15*60 moves), enemies become enraged - increased speed, accuracy, hunting flag and HALVED XP. This is done to counteract mass-wait in corner strategies that really don't have much to do with fun in the long run. Thanks to that I am able to partially revert the patrol change - some AI now patrols, some doesn't. Tell me what you think!

Also, be on very careful lookout to make sure all traits work as they did - most of them were moved from Pascal to Lua since the last version, including most Masters!

DoomRL 0.9.9.9 BETA 7 Windows LQ

Code: [Select]
0.9.9.9 BETA 7
[new] -- GH#252: staying too long on a level will enrage the enemies
[mod] -- GH#252: only some enemies keep to their patrol area
[mod] -- GH#000: enemy melee damage now randomized
[mod] -- GH#000: Malicious Blades will double damage of thrown knives
[fix] -- GH#241: clearing of level feeling on death/restart [brisbang]
[fix] -- GH#113: thermonuclear explosions on Abyssal Plains/Containment area count also clear the traps [brisbang]
[fix] -- GH#232: fixed Abyssal Plains trap not always triggering [brisbang]
[fix] -- GH#100: completion of Ao666 reports 666 levels completed [brisbang]

 4 
 on: April 09, 2025, 22:17 
Started by Omega Tyrant - Last post by Omega Tyrant
A bit of an update, 0.9.9.9 is still under development and seems still a while way from releasing, but seeing how more significant additions and balance changes than I anticipated are coming to it (some of which already been implemented in the betas, and some more planned), as well as some fundamental reworkings of Nightmare (the difficulty that most Diamond and Angelic badges require), I'm thinking I am going to separate the 0.9.9.8 badges to their own post after all, as the difficulty of obtaining each badge may significantly alter (or otherwise require strategy adjustments). In the meantime however, I decided to add new headings to indicate which mastery (or lack of) each listed mortem used; when browsing the old Badge Hunters thread, something I always wanted to immediately know was which build each run used (whether it be because I wanted to see the mortem of a specific build or to note which builds were most commonly used for a given badge), but you had to click the links to each individual mortem to get that info, making getting that info tedious. So I thought to make getting that important info more convenient in this new Badge Hunters thread, hopefully others find those new headings useful.

 5 
 on: April 09, 2025, 21:41 
Started by Kantarza - Last post by Omega Tyrant
Oh very nice, a new Angelic mortem for 0.9.9.8.

Quote
As @OmegaTyrant mentioned, Vampyre is game-shattering but after getting through the dungeon, I struggle to believe you could make it another way. As you work your way into the latter half of the game, some levels started with over 200 monsters. Navigating that without berserk and healing seems improbable without savescumming.

Oh A666 on Nightmare without Vampyre is definitely doable, back in 0.9.9.7 there were five verified Centurial Angelic mortems, and none of them did it with Vampyre (granted Vampyre wasn't absurdly broken then, but it was still the best mastery on N!), while a couple didn't have Berserker either (though unless your mastery blocks it, I think you should always pick up Berserker in A100/666, as aside from being a very powerful trait in general, it's a very nice failsafe if you get surprised by a big hit at a bad time or run out of ammo without any sort of nano weapon). By the time you encounter such absurdly dense floors, you should have the firepower to kill enemies swiftly and the armor to withstand many hits.

Quote
I only found about 1 chainsaw every 100 levels, the first at 120 and the second at 230. Possibly they were being blown up but chainsword (P) is a perfectly fine weapon.

Yeah a P Chainsword can be surprisingly sufficient with a few levels of Brute, another reason Vampyre is broken is because you don't even need the Chainsaw nor any of the melee artifacts to just steamroll through everything, just the Chainsword is enough to destroy everything (and then if you do get the Chainsaw or the melee artifacts...).

Quote
Given you don’t need armor, focus on speed (and onyx protection purely for comfort). Faster means more you, less monsters and less pressing enter to get through the messages. Phaseshift APO armor is awesome, as are antigrav plasteel boots. Down to 0.16s while berserk (i.e. always since early on).

With 0.9.9.8 Vampyre, yeah you want to prioritize speed on your armors, suddenly the Hellrunner block becomes rather irrelevant when you're able to run around with Phaseshift Armor everywhere while still reducing basically every hit to 1 damage. The upcoming Marine and berserk resistance nerfs in 0.9.9.9, as well as Vampyre's TaN block, may change the math on that though.

Quote
All nests are comfortably clearable except nightmare arachnotrons. I did one to show I could and then skipped the rest. Very risky in open arenas.

If you're not going for all kills and you don't see anything nice on the level, I agree to just get out of Nightmare Arachnotron caves ASAP, they're probably the only level that can actually threaten Vampyre when enough of them shooting at you at once can instantly deplete all your HP, even Shambler levels would be preferable for Vampyre (which are normally I think the nastiest level you can encounter for most builds).

Quote
If you weren't sure, you can reach level 25 before dungeon level 100 by clearing levels. I think I got there about dlevel 89.

Indeed, in versions prior to 0.9.9.7 (where A666 and dual angels were first added), the only way to get the Experience Cross was to play A100 on N! (but now you can do it on any difficulty by playing A666 or doing a dual angel of A100 + AoD).

Quote
Finally, a big shout out to OmegaTyrant for his great advice, and Epyon for giving me so much fun!

Happy to see my advice helps! I've also updated the Badge Hunters thread with your mortem for Centurial Angelic and Technician Diamond, it's great to get a bit more activity there before 0.9.9.9 drops.

 6 
 on: April 09, 2025, 07:50 
Started by Kantarza - Last post by Kantarza
I've been continuing to work through achievements and I was now trying to get all assemblies and artifacts. I played HNTR Ao100+AoMr and found 2 dragonslayers which I had to leave behind. Then I played two Ao100 vampyres merely to find a single nano in each. After looking at the plat achievements I had yet to collect, I really wanted to take out the assemblies, artifacts and char level 25.

So I decided to go back on my word and take on 666 knowing it would mean lots more artifacts and hopefully nano kits. As @OmegaTyrant mentioned, Vampyre is game-shattering but after getting through the dungeon, I struggle to believe you could make it another way. As you work your way into the latter half of the game, some levels started with over 200 monsters. Navigating that without berserk and healing seems improbable without savescumming.

I didn't find it much of a grind even though it was 10.5hrs. The first 100 was interesting as I was level clearing, and the second 100 fine. After about 300, when the monsters picked up, and I finally got dragonslayer and the last nano I needed, I started to dive more seriously.
* I only found about 1 chainsaw every 100 levels, the first at 120 and the second at 230. Possibly they were being blown up but chainsword (P) is a perfectly fine weapon.
* In the early game I spent a lot of time clearing the full map, looking for nanos.
* Antigrav boots were awesome. Far less time taking damage, and realising that they self-heal is great. At one point I just pottered about on a lava elemental level and checked them, only to find they were at 2%. Phew!
* Picking up Hell's staff was great for diving because it was a free phase and potentially more, opening up the possibility of quicker access to stairs (ideally), a computer map (pretty good) or just health to try another phase.
* Getting Cerberus boots early on is very helpful to have the confidence to walk anywhere and destroy ranged monsters. Later on antigrav boots are the better trade - reducing hits (and they regenerate).
* Given you don’t need armor, focus on speed (and onyx protection purely for comfort). Faster means more you, less monsters and less pressing enter to get through the messages. Phaseshift APO armor is awesome, as are antigrav plasteel boots. Down to 0.16s while berserk (i.e. always since early on).
* All nests are comfortably clearable except nightmare arachnotrons. I did one to show I could and then skipped the rest. Very risky in open arenas.
* Levels get very dense later on.
* Felt good to get a full victory

Tips for newcomers:
* Don’t bother nuking or going for levers – you won’t get the achievement.
* If you weren't sure, you can reach level 25 before dungeon level 100 by clearing levels. I think I got there about dlevel 89.

My favorite moment was having some fun in a pain elemental nest. Got up to 480 monsters left on the level!

Finally, a big shout out to OmegaTyrant for his great advice, and Epyon for giving me so much fun!

--------------------------------------------------------------
 DRL (0.9.9.8a) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Kantarza, level 25 Arch-Vile Colonel Marine,
 completed 100 levels of torture on level 666 of Hell.
 He survived 277410 turns and scored 32307425 points.
 He played for 10 hours, 33 minutes and 9 seconds.
 He opposed the Nightmare!

 He killed 18694 out of 61103 hellspawn. (30%)
 He was an Archangel of 666!

 He saved himself 11 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 0
  Levels visited   : 0
  Levels completed : 0

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (gold cluster)    100+ kills without taking damage
  Experience Cross           Reach experience level 25
  Apostle Insignia           Awarded for killing the Apostle
  Technician Platinum Badge  Discover all advanced assemblies
  Technician Diamond Badge   Discover all assemblies
  Armorer Gold Badge         Discover all exotics/uniques
  Centurial Angelic Badge    Complete ArchAo666 on N!

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ###########################################################
  #####################=####..^.###.##.#####.=##..|.##%######
  #################===#=#####..#%.%.......##.%=c%...%##%#####
  ##################===###|}##.......%.%^..%==.%.##.#.%######
  ##################====#....%%%%%.%%....%.=====#####...#####
  ##################===.##...%...%%%..%...#..=..###..#%..%%..
  #################==##..##.%.....%..%..%%.%.%#.#####%%%..%..
  ##################=..#%.#.%%.%...............##..#..%%%%...
  #################=##..##.#..........%...%.......#%.#....#.#
  ##################====%.X......%%....%.%..........%...%%...
  ##################..==%..%%.....%.%%%.........%..%..#.....%
  ###################.%\%%..%%....%..%.%..%%#.%.%......%..[##
  ##################%.%....%.%...##.#........#.%...#...##%#.#
  ############.#####...........%.%.%....%...###.%......#####%
  ###########.#...##...............%.......#....%...#.#####..
  ###########%###.#..[%%..%...=.....%...#..#.....%.#%######..
  ############%.##%..#####=====.#%%...%......#%.#.########.##
  ############.....%#####=.====%.#...%.%%..%..%.#############
  ############...##########%==##.#.#.%...##...%##############
  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 120/60   Experience 5721632/25
  ToHit Ranged +10  ToHit Melee +20  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +15

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Marine

    Finesse          (Level 3)
    Tough as nails   (Level 3)
    Eagle Eye        (Level 5)
    Brute            (Level 5)
    Juggler          (Level 1)
    Berserker        (Level 1)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 2)
    Badass           (Level 2)
    Vampyre          (Level 1)

  Bru->Bru->Ber->TaN->Bad->MVm->TaN->Bad->Fin->Fin->WK->TaN->WK->Bru->Fin->Bru->Bru->EE->EE->Int->Int->EE->EE->EE->Jug->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   Berserker Armor [4]
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   Dragonslayer (9d9)
    [c] [ Boots      ]   antigrav plasteel boots [2/2] (100%) (A)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nothing

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] Mother-In-Law (6d9) [1/1] (T1)
    [b] Trigun (3d6) [6/6]
    [c] phaseshift armor [4] (AOP)
    [d] cerberus gothic armor [0] (O)
    [e] ripper (6d6) (T)
    [f] large med-pack
    [g] large med-pack
    [h] large med-pack
    [i] large med-pack
    [j] homing phase device
    [k] homing phase device
    [l] Hell Staff
    [m] cerberus plasteel boots [0/0] (100%) (A)
    [n] antigrav phaseshift boots [4/4] (100%)
    [o] Nyarlaptotep's Boots [6/6] (100%)

-- Resistances -----------------------------------------------

    bullet     - internal 60%   torso 95%   feet 60% 
    melee      - internal 60%   torso 95%   feet 60% 
    shrapnel   - internal 60%   torso 95%   feet 60% 
    acid       - internal 80%   torso 80%   feet 95% 
    fire       - internal 80%   torso 80%   feet 95% 
    plasma     - internal 80%   torso 80%   feet 80% 

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    732 former humans
    1505 former sergeants
    2291 former captains
    149 imps
    69 demons
    2406 lost souls
    731 cacodemons
    534 hell knights
    1928 barons of hell
    590 arachnotrons
    49 former commandos
    551 pain elementals
    1044 revenants
    1358 mancubi
    1799 arch-viles
    92 nightmare imps
    382 nightmare cacodemons
    911 nightmare demons
    308 nightmare arachnotrons
    98 nightmare arch-viles
    26 elite former humans
    14 elite former sergeants
    126 elite former captains
    95 elite former commandos
    311 bruiser brothers
    260 shamblers
    118 lava elemental
    69 agony elementals
    147 Cyberdemons
    1 Apostle

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  On level 13 he assembled a chainsword!
  On level 31 he assembled a cerberus boots!
  On level 32 he found the Cybernetic Armor!
  On level 34 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  On level 37, hell froze over!
  On level 38 he ran for his life from lava!
  He sounded the alarm on level 41!
  On level 41 he found the Berserker Armor!
  On level 42 he ran for his life from acid!
  On level 43 he was stumbling in the dark!
  On level 45 he ran for his life from lava!
  On level 46 he ran for his life from lava!
  On level 47, hell froze over!
  Level 50 blasted him with an unholy atmosphere!
  On level 54 he was targeted for extermination!
  On level 54 he assembled a cerberus armor!
  Level 55 blasted him with an unholy atmosphere!
  On level 55 he found the Mega Buster!
  On level 56 he was stumbling in the dark!
  On level 59 he was targeted for extermination!
  On level 61 he ran for his life from lava!
  On level 64 he found the Hellwave Pack!
  Level 69 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 69 he assembled a antigrav boots!
  Level 70 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 75 he stumbled into a nightmare arachnotron cave!
  On level 76 he assembled a Mother-In-Law!
  On level 79 he stumbled into a nightmare cacodemon cave!
  On level 82 he found the Acid Spitter!
  On level 83 he was targeted for extermination!
  On level 85 he stumbled into a complex full of Cyberdemons!
  On level 87 he stumbled into a lava elemental cave!
  Level 89 blasted him with an unholy atmosphere!
  On level 98 he stumbled into a nightmare cacodemon cave!
  On level 99 he found the Anti-Freak Jackal!
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  On level 115, hell froze over!
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  On level 124 he was stumbling in the dark!
  On level 127 he found the Shielded Armor!
  On level 128 he found the Charch's Null Pointer!
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  On level 492 he found the Grammaton Cleric Beretta!
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  Level 508 blasted him with an unholy atmosphere!
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  On level 512 he was stumbling in the dark!
  Level 513 was a hard nut to crack!
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  He sounded the alarm on level 514!
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  On level 666 he stumbled into a nightmare demon cave!
  On level 666 he finally completed 100 levels of torture.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You hit the Apostle. The nightmare demon hits you. You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Apostle. The nightmare cacodemon hits you. You are engulfed in
 flames! That hurt! You're going berserk! The nightmare demon hits you. You
 need to taste blood!
 Unknown command. Press "h" for help.
 You hit the Apostle. The Apostle dies. You're going berserk! You need to taste
 blood!
 You hit the nightmare demon. The nightmare demon dies. The nightmare cacodemon
 hits you. You need to taste blood!
 You hit the nightmare cacodemon. The nightmare cacodemon dies. You need to
 taste blood!
 There are stairs leading downward here. You need to taste blood!
 You're crazy, you know that, right? Hell, congratulations anyway! Press
 <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 137 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 97 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 2 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 1 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 36 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 2 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 21 killed the bitch and survived.
 13 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

 7 
 on: April 06, 2025, 21:53 
Started by Omega Tyrant - Last post by Omega Tyrant
Kornel mentioned on his last stream how he found masteries too restrictive to build variety and suggested to me the idea of relaxing their prerequisites. I've seen several other high level DRL players express the opinion that going masterless was best in 0.9.9.7 because they preferred the freedom, so this certainly isn't a minority take. Previously, it seems the prereqs of masteries was baked into their balancing, but thinking of it, I think you could make all masteries require six levels without seriously buffing them, and it would address the weird inequality where only a few masteries before required less than seven levels. Making them all require five levels like the current generalist masteries would be too much though, it works for the generalist masteries as they don't grant such a large immediate power boost, but being able to get game-changing masteries like Vampyre, Ammochain, Shottyhead, and Sharpshooter by level 5 would give a significant advantage over masterless builds and other masteries that don't provide such a large immediate power boost. As for making all masteries have only two blocks, I think it could almost work, most masteries would not be made broken with less blocks, but there are a couple where three blocks are pretty necessary like Vampyre. That concern could be solved however by just being willing to have an uneven level of blocks between each mastery (which considering the actual amount of traits blocked by each is already uneven because of basic trait blocks also blocking advanced traits that require them, it wouldn't be necessarily inconsistent). That said, I think this is how the prereqs of each mastery can be adjusted:

*Vampyre - Keep prereqs as is; all blocks are crucial to keeping it from being overpowered, but if all masteries are to only have two direct blocks, then Ironman would be the least powerful trait for Vampyre to unblock.

*Blademaster - Change the requirement of Brute 3 to Brute 2; Son of a Gun is the only block I think you can remove, BM wouldn't care about having SoG but being allowed TaN or SoB would be potentially too strong.

*Malicious Blades - Change the requirement of Dodgemaster to Hellrunner 2; you could unblock Tough as Nails to lessen the amount of masteries blocking it and so at least one melee mastery allows it, but it could be potentially too strong if TaN isn't toned down to 5% resistances per level, so you could unblock Eagle Eye instead with no risk of making MB overpowered.

*Bullet Dance - You could either change the requirement of Dualgunner to Son of a Gun 2, or change the requirement of Triggerhappy to Son of a Bitch 2, the latter would solve the glaring flaw of BD requiring a dead level but you would have to adjust Bullet Dance to not require TH to shoot an extra bullet, otherwise you would still be forced to take TH at some point to get any effect out of BD; you can remove the Intuition block.

*Gun Kata - Change the requirement of Dodgemaster to Hellrunner 2; I think all three blocks for Gun Kata are pretty necessary, but if one had to be unblocked, Son of a Bitch would be the least impactful unblock.

*Sharpshooter - Change the requirement of Eagle Eye 3 to Eagle Eye 2; Sharpshooter would like SoB but that could be potentially too strong, so I think unblocking TaN would be better and so not all three Pistol masteries allow SoB.

*Army of the Dead - Keep prereqs as is; remove the block on SoB.

*Shottyhead - Remove Hellrunner from prereqs; I would really like having SoB on Shottyhead but I'm certain that would be too strong, so Eagle Eye would be the least impactful trait to unblock, or you could justify keeping all three blocks.

*Fireangel - Change the requirement of Shottyman to Reloader 2; remove the block on SoG if Fireangel keeps its ability to turn all projectiles explosive (so it can better utilize that ability with pistols), or remove the block on EE if that ability is changed to Fireangel having larger spreads on Shotguns (to more enforce it being a Shotgun mastery).

*Ammochain - Change the requirement of Triggerhappy 2 to Triggerhappy 1; all three blocks are rather necessary for how strong Ammochain is, but you could remove the Ironman block if one had to go.

*Cateye - Keep prereqs as is; I'm thinking you could justify all three blocks here as Cateye would substantially benefit from any of these traits, but Reloader would be the most acceptable allowance if any are unblocked.

*Entrenchment - Change the Badass requirement to Tough as Nails 2; remove the SoG block, and I mentioned it before but Entrenchment should be blocked Berserker because of how strongly berserk resistances stack with the newly buffed Entrenchment, it could be either added as a third block or replace Reloader.

Then the Generalist masteries are already level 5 masteries and have only two blocks in the latest beta, so no need to suggest changes to their prereqs/blocks here.

____________________________________________

The following are just a few more proposals I threw around in the Discord server and am recording here so they don't get forgotten about.

*Fix the Assault Rifle

The Assault Rifle is a weird and rather worthless assembly, where for the hefty cost of three Agility mods on a rapid fire weapon, you get a weapon with less damaging bursts and overall worse DPS (especially once SoB is factored as you're firing half the shots), while you don't even save on ammo from the stronger individual shots, as the ammo consumption remains the same due to each shot consuming 2 ammo. The +3 accuracy boost is irrelevant too as the requisite Agility mods already gave that (and to think it was even worse prior to 0.9.9.8 with a +2 accuracy boost, making the weapon outright inferior). The only useful thing this assembly actually does is cut the weapon's reload time in half, but this just does not matter at all for Ammochain when it has both Reloader and the ability to fire so many shots before needing to reload, while other builds would rather a weapon that can more effectively kill things before needing to reload, or for extended fights, equip an ammo box to speed up their reloads. The Assault Rifle's current sorry state was the result of a hefty nerf when it was supposedly too strong in much older versions of DRL, so I looked up its pre-nerf stats on the wiki, and it was:

Damage: 2d5 x 2 shots (no extra ammunition cost)
Accuracy: +6 (+4 over the base Chaingun)
Fire time: 0.8 seconds
Reload time: 1.0 seconds
How to make: Chaingun + AAA

...Which doesn't seem overpowered at all? This weapon in fact has barely more DPS than the vanilla Chaingun before any levels of SoB (15 vs. 14, and it just increasingly falls behind with each level of SoB), so it was just saving you some marginal ammo, far from worth the hefty mod cost. Maybe it was stronger in an even older version of DRL than the wiki documents, but that would mean it got hit with a big nerf stick... and then nerfed again. As for what to do with this assembly, first I would make it only compatible with a 10mm chainfire weapon (so the Chaingun and Minigun); the Plasma Rifle already has the Hyperblaster, while the Laser Rifle and Nuclear Plasma Rifle certainly don't need this assembly, so something more unique to the 10mm Chainfire weapons would be better (as well as remove the headache of trying to balance this assembly for both the bullet and plasma weapons). Then for the stats, I would go:

Damage: +1 die, -1 sides (so both the Chaingun and Minigun would become 2d5), with half the shots (but without the double ammo cost).
Accuracy: +4 on the base weapon (so Chaingun becomes +6 and Minigun becomes +5).
Fire time: Original * 0.5 (so Chaingun becomes 0.5 seconds and Minigun becomes 0.6 seconds).
Reload time: Original * 0.5 (so Chaingun becomes 1.3 seconds and Minigun becomes 1.8 seconds).

This is almost the same as the original (it will now actually help you conserve ammo and I feel it needs to grant an extra point of accuracy over the requisite Agility mods, especially to better set it apart from the stronger Hyperblaster), but with much faster firing time; with 0.5 second firing speed, the Assault Rifle would have a DPS advantage over the vanilla Chaingun and Minigun (even with maxed out SoB), as well as grant more safety when firing while exposed. As huge an improvement as this is, I still see myself rarely making it; the Gatling Gun assembly offers an even bigger combat improvement on the Chaingun for a more economical mod investment, and just normal modding on the Chaingun and Minigun can outstrip the DPS potential of this proposed Assault Rifle (while I also ultimately would rather use those Agility mods on boots and armors, or a Plasma Rifle). But at least this assembly would have real use if you come across a surplus of Agility mods while playing a build with no Eagle Eye, or can at least be used to make the Minigun a lot less unwieldy without a bunch of EE and technical mods.

*Have less restrictions on Dual Angel combinations

Something I noticed when looking at valid Dual Angel combinations is how needlessly restrictive they are. Some combinations are obviously incompatible, like the weapon-locked challenges with each other, or any of AoCn, AoOC, and A100 together. But then I look at other restrictions and I just wonder why; why can't you do AoMC with the weapon-locked challenges nor AoH, why can't you do AoP and AoI together, why can't you do AoLT nor AoRA with A100, why can't you mix AoMs with over half the other challenges? Most of these combinations certainly wouldn't make things easier, and if that was otherwise a concern, the proposal of disallowing challenge-specific badges from Dual Angel runs can be implemented.

*Allow Firestorm mods to be applied to Shotguns, with the effect of increasing their spread by +1

Currently, finding a Firestorm mod as a Shotgun build is mostly a dud, all you can do with it is just slap it on the BFG, and if you're playing AoSh, you don't even have that option, making getting one in Hell's Armory/Deimos Lab particularly annoying. The proposed Blastproof Armor would give them another option if it's added, but when thinking of it, they should just be compatible with Shotguns themselves, and a fitting idea that came to mind is having it increase a Shotgun's spread size by +1 without any loss in dropoff damage, making the Shotgun even more effective against crowds. Also more ways to meaningfully mod Shotguns aside from loading them up with Power and Technical mods would be appreciated too.

*Nerf the amount of bullets that Former Captains carry from 100 to 40.

The amount of bullets that Captains carry always been rather absurd, as they would be very lucky to deplete the clip on their Chaingun a single time before they (or you) die, much less actually burn through 140 bullets. The main reason I'm proposing this though is with the SoG change, Pistols have become even more ammo efficient, so much so that when playing Pistols on the latest betas, I find myself just firing away at out of vision enemies without care for the extra ammo burned, as ammo is such little concern when bullets are as plentiful as they are and you need so relatively little to kill enemies. A single Captain can provide enough bullets to clear out a floor while still allowing me to exit the floor with all my bullet stacks filled out, and with multiple Captains on a floor, I may as well have infinite Pistol shots. The suggested 40 bullets ensures that should a Captain actually deplete their Chaingun's clip, they would be able to reload one more full clip before running out of ammo (as well as still retain being a nice ammo source in general).

 8 
 on: March 15, 2025, 05:15 
Started by carthagodrl - Last post by Kantarza
Thanks for the feedback and for helping the Winlator community!

 9 
 on: March 11, 2025, 05:36 
Started by Omega Tyrant - Last post by Omega Tyrant
Now here is the big post about special level adjustments to account for the new enemies added.

First I want to state that I think the EXP multiplier in Nightmare should be lowered to the standard x1.0, or at least x1.1 if it must have a higher EXP multiplier than UV. A big part of why later N! loses a lot of bite is that you get so much EXP between the boosted multiplier, even greater enemy density than UV, and special levels having stronger enemies with greater EXP yields, so the difficulty gets somewhat compromised by how much stronger the player gets. Currently, killing everything and clearing the special levels will have you regularly entering Deimos at level 9 and you'll soar past level 12 by the halfway point, while enemies with even greater EXP yields are going to be added to special levels and a new special level pair is going to be added in Phobos, which will make the player's level on N! soar to even greater extents if the EXP multiplier is not toned down to compensate.

Now onto the special levels:

Hell's Arena
Fine as is on UV, and I seen Kornel has plans to modify it below UV, which will be interesting to see. Nightmare is where it's in dire need of adjustment currently though, and how to modify it depends on what is done to address the ordeal that is trying to get everything dead at once while lacking the means for proper corpse disposal this early when the corpse stacking strategy has been rendered mostly unviable by patrolling AI.

*If it's adjusted so you just need to kill every unique enemy once rather than having everything dead at once, then Hell's Arena enemy force is probably fine as is, considering how much more difficulty respawning adds to the level (maybe you could replace the Lost Souls with their Nightmare counterparts to spice things up a bit and add a couple of them to the second wave too). Also when clearing the final wave, maybe consider not only disabling respawning, but have every remaining respawned enemy drop dead too.

*If it's adjusted to disable respawning entirely, then the enemy force will need to be buffed considerably. How to is uncertain though, you certainly can't just replace Pinkies and Cacodemons with their Nightmare counterparts this early as it would probably make the level near impossible for most runs. You could replace the Lost Souls with Nightmare Souls though and add some to the second wave, as well as perhaps throw in extra Cacos and Pinkies, and then for the final wave, maybe you could throw some Nightmare Imps in to assist the Barons?

The Chained Court
Fine as is on UV and below. As for Nightmare, it's too a level that would greatly appreciate changing the clear condition to killing everything once, or even disabling respawning, as otherwise you have to do a ton of door camping to get everything dead when you'll still probably lack any means of corpse disposing weapons (especially as accessing this version of Chained Court means you didn't clear Hell's Arena and thus didn't get the guaranteed Rocket Launcher). Whatever is done, I think the Former Humans should be replaced with Sergeants on N!, as currently its enemy force is the same as UV, and whichever method is implemented to make clearing less tedious, the level would probably be easier than UV if the enemies aren't altered, considering you'll come in a level or two higher and the berserks will last twice as long,

The Unchained Court
The enemy force is fine as is for UV and below, but if possible, I would give the Arena Master the old free roaming AI so that he can rush you before you're ready for him, unlike now where he'll stay far from the central building while you take care of the enemies around there at your leisure (enrage mode and larger patrol zones being added could address this though). On N!, similar to its normal counterpart, destroying all corpses is tedious here, even with the guaranteed Rocket Launcher since your rockets will be limited, so changing the clear condition to killing everything once or disabling respawning would be greatly appreciated. Beyond that, again replace the Former Humans with Sergeants to buff up the enemy force to compensate for N!'s double extended Berserks.

Military Base
The enemy force is fine as is on all difficulties, I'll just reiterate the previous proposal to remove the Tracking Map on UV and N!. Additionally, clearing all the Former corpses here on N! is a tedious affair as well, and beating the level fast enough before anything revives is a flatout impossible task when there's so many enemies and the level makes you go all over the place, so again another special level that would greatly appreciate the clear condition being changed to killing everything once or disabling respawning. If the latter is done, you wouldn't need to buff the enemy force here, as the main threat of the level, the Elite Formers, couldn't respawn anyway.

Phobos Lab
Fine as is on all difficulties, just again another level on N! that would appreciate killing everything once being the clear requirement or disabling respawning, so you don't need to lure every Former and Imp on the level over doors or near acid to destroy their corpse to get everything dead at once (especially again when like Military Base, this is a level with a ton of enemies and requires going all over the map, making frequent respawning inevitable).

Phobos Anomaly
Fine as is on UV and below (as long as the infighting adjustments I mentioned in the previous post get implemented). As for N!, after the huge buff the Nightmare Cacodemons got, I think they're too strong to have in the ambush; the N! Anomaly ambush already bordered on insanity previously, being largely luck-based to get past without rocket jumping, and now the Nightmare Cacos hit about as hard as the Bruisers do... but faster with plasma damage and more accurately, not to mention that they're a lot harder to kill now too with their buffed HP and insane energy resistances. So perhaps each Nightmare Caco should be replaced with double or thrice the amount of Nightmare Souls. If this is done, space would need to be made for those extra Nightmare Souls in the ambush walls... which may need to be filled up with stuff on lower difficulties to keep the player from inadvertently phasing into one of the empty wall spots and getting softlocked if you can't turn those spots into no phase zones (you could just fill them up with normal Lost Souls on lower difficulties, 4 or 8 more of them shouldn't be too much). Alternatively, the Nightmare Cacos could be toned down a bit (regardless at the very least, they should have their 50% fire and acid resistances removed that don't make much sense on them, keep the 50% plasma resistance though, I like giving rapid builds a reason to not entirely ditch bullet weapons for plasma).

Hell's Armory
Fine as is on UV and below, especially now that patrolling AI means you can no longer just camp in the starting north building to safely kill everything before the Shambler, making the level not the complete breather it was previously. As for N!, another level that it would be nice to change the clear condition to killing everything once or disabling respawning as you're still not quite at the point that you can easily corpse dispose and the tight corridors of the level makes it not so easy to blow up corpses without hurting yourself. For the enemy force on N!, it's the same as UV except the Shambler has more HP and is more aggressive, which could be considered enough, but if you want to add some oomph on N!, you could replace the Imps here with their Nightmare counterparts (or with a mixture of Revenants and Arachnotrons), as well as replace 4 of the Cacos with their Nightmare versions as well (though certainly not all, again given how strong and durable they now are).

Deimos Lab
Enemy layout is fine as is on UV and below, I'll just note that if it's made available on ITYTD, then you must remove one of the Shamblers on that difficulty, as the dual Shambler will certainly slaughter any newbie even with ITYTD advantages. Additionally, the Formers near the teleport destinations should be moved away, as due to the patrolling AI, there's a high random chance that stepping into the teleporter will drop you right in view of a Captain, or much worse a Commando, where they will then get a full burst on you with no chance to dodge (and because teleporting takes extra time, they might even get a double attack, which with a Commando could mean instant death from full health if you're unlucky). Larger patrol zones could help, but minimizing the chance of getting instantly shredded when stepping into the teleporter will be ideal.

As for N!, once more a level that should have the clear condition changed to killing everything once or disabling respawning, especially so when unlike Hell's Armory you don't got a stash of rockets around outside the dozen rockets you get from the Revenants, and when you don't exactly want to be destroying your cover when you got the dual Shamblers to fight. For the enemy force, it's the same as UV... except for a single extra Cacodemon. You could keep the enemy layout the same as UV though as the buffed HP and extra aggressive for the Shamblers is a big deal in this fight, but if you want to add extra spice to it, like with Armory you could replace a few of the Cacos here with their Nightmare versions.

The Wall
Fine as is on UV and below. For N!, I think this is one of the few special levels you can keep having everything dead at once being the clear requirement, given Archviles are a big part of this level's challenge on N! and UV (while you also get the Missile Launcher and a big stash of rockets to easily dispose the corpses here). With the enemy force, it's the same as UV, which definitely has to be buffed as that currently makes The Wall a special level that is actually easier on N! for this point of the game. Simply replacing half the Barons with the new Nightmare Knights on N! should be sufficient and fitting.

Containment Area
Fine as is on UV and below. For N!, like The Wall it's fine forcing everything to be dead at once to count as clearing it (just maybe add some extra rockets on N! since you only got the single Rocket Box and the 4 rockets in the Missile Launcher). Unlike The Wall, I wouldn't add Nightmare Knights to the Backpack ambush, N! adding a second Archvile to it already makes it very difficult, and Nightmare Knights would probably make it impossible for most builds to survive without a Homing Phase. You could replace all the Imps and Pinkies here with their Nightmare counterparts however to make the pre-ambush part of the level no longer a breeze.

City of Skulls
Fine as is on HMP and below, but maybe the Agony Elemental should be added to ITYTD, it's weird that City of Skulls lacks it but Abyssal Plains has it. On UV, I was thinking this level could be buffed as I always found it very easy unless I was playing AoMr, but the Elemental AI changes and summoned enemies activating faster does make things a bit more hairy. N! definitely needs a big buff however, as currently the only difference with it is the Agony Elemental having more HP, while respawning isn't even a factor here when no enemy here can respawn. Replacing all the preset Lost Souls in the first wave with Nightmare Souls is obvious, and for the second wave, I say replace 3 or 4 of the Pain Elementals with Nightmare Elementals (more than that though in conjunction with the Agony Elemental would probably get too insane and consume way too much ammo).

Abyssal Plains
Firstly, if City Of Skulls not having the Agony Elemental on ITYTD is kept, then Abyssal Plains shouldn't have it either, especially if the reasoning is that it's too hard for newbies when Abyssal Plains features a more difficult fight with it. Secondly, I think Abyssal Plains may be a bit too hard on HMP; all the Imps being replaced with Hell Knights makes the opening ambush nasty, enough that I think Abyssal Plains could be the hardest special level on HMP outside of Mortuary/Limbo and Deimos Lab, while the jump to UV isn't significant (just two of the Lost Souls get replaced with Pain Elementals and the Agony Elemental gets extra HP, which is negated by you coming in a level or two higher). For adjusting HMP and UV:

*On HMP, keep the 8 Imps from HNTR intact instead of replacing them with Hell Knights. Enough changes are made elsewhere (5 of the Cacos getting replaced with Arachnotrons and extra Lost Souls + Pain Elementals being added to the trap) that replacing the Imps with Hell Knights is excessive.

*On UV, rather than replace the 8 Imps with Hell Knights, do what N! does and replace them with Nightmare Imps instead. Always felt UV should have Nightmare Imps somewhere aside from Limbo and the rare lategame vault with them, and it's more unique than the 14 Hell Knights that are currently here, while being a more natural evolution from HMP. I think you could additionally replace the 15 preset Lost Souls here with Nightmare Souls too, since the preset Souls don't really do much at this point in UV.

As for N!, the main setpiece (the Agony Elemental trap) isn't affected by respawning, but since you do got lots of enemies around that do respawn and in a level that will naturally take a long time as you have to make a complete circle as well as deal with the aforementioned Agony Elemental, changing the clear condition to be killing every enemy once would be very nice here. For enemy adjustments, alongside keeping the changes of UV, I would say replace the two Pain Elementals wandering outside the trap area with their Nightmare versions, but probably not more than that to keep City Of Skulls' extra Nightmare Elementals and Nightmare Souls a unique hazard to it (plus N! already does add a ton more Pain Elementals to the Abyssal Plains trap).

Halls of Carnage
Fine as is on all difficulties. Respawning isn't even a issue on N! as the flood will destroy the corpses anyway and it floods so fast. Maybe you could just change the requirement to killing everything once though, so if something does respawn after you killed everything, you can just exit the level instead of waiting for the flood to take them out or having to kill them again. The only thing I will note is that there is currently no special clear message for Halls of Carnage, so having one would be nice.

Spider's Lair
Fine as is on UV and below. Making the clear condition on N! being kill everything once would be nice, but the main issue with the level is that it is the same as UV, which results in it being one of the easiest special levels on N!, especially when compared to how brutal its counterpart gets on N!. Just simply replacing the 8 outer Arachnotrons here with Nightmare Arachnotrons should give this an appropriately big bump in difficulty (but certainly not all, as that would almost certainly make the level get unreasonably difficult with how deadly just a single Nightmare Arachnotron can be). Also, maybe you can do what Hell's Arena does and disable respawning once you clear it, since a bunch of rewards get spawned all over the level and trying to get them without disposing of all corpses first is hazardous as a result.

The Vaults
Fine as is on HMP and below. For UV, I mentioned the error previously with the missing Barons in the right vault and how an extra Red Armor should be added there in conjunction with the two missing Barons. As for N!, I will first say this is a level where it's fine to require having everything dead at once to clear the level since Archviles are a big part of the challenge here (but you could disable respawning to have it consistent with House Of Pain and since respawning isn't a serious issue here either way). For the enemy adjustment, as we got a proper Nightmare versions of the Barons now, you can replace them with the Nightmare Knights. Just if you do that, you really have to do something to prevent the Nightmare enemies from teleporting out of the center vault, as otherwise it would make getting the Scavenger Platinum and Diamond badges (as well as the proposed Angelic) much simpler.

House of Pain
Aside from the proposal to make the Arena Master's Staff required to access the Large Health Globes (and perhaps removing two of them entirely, getting four full heals is pretty excessive, I rarely ever have to use any medkits here), and maybe a clear message once you beat the final fight, the enemy loadout could use some changes.

*Fine as is on HNTR.

*For HMP, I'm thinking the Nightmare Archvile should get some help, as a player skilled enough for HMP probably knows to dispose of the corpses in the first room ahead of time, and a single Nightmare Archvile isn't too scary of a fight at this point in the game. To fit with how this fight will evolve on harder difficulties, I first thought of 4 Hell Knights to help him, but since they can steal the prize armors, that's probably too harsh for HMP, so 4 Nightmare Imps backing him up should be fine enough.

*For UV, just like HMP, the final fight with the two Nightmare Archviles should get backup, as I've repeatedly found the fight to be overly easy once you know to dispose of the corpses ahead of time. Replacing the 4 Nightmare Imps with Hell Knights that can steal the prize armors should be the appropriate big bump.

*For N!, the Pinkies in the starting room should be replaced with Nightmare Demons. Then the final fight could keep the Barons backing up the Nightmare Archviles, but you could also replace them with Nightmare Knights if you really want to amp up the final fight (maybe you would want to keep the Nightmare Knights exclusive to The Vaults in this level pair though).

Unholy Cathedral
If you were to make Unholy Cathedral actually challenging for lategame melee builds, it would make it nearly or even outright impossible for non-melee builds, so that wouldn't be ideal (melee investment or getting lucky with a nuke + Invuln shouldn't be necessary for Conqueror runs). However, once you learn the outspeeding timing trick to kill the Angel Of Death, this ends up becoming a pretty easy level that doesn't really get any harder on higher difficulties (actually being easier as you get more levels to more easily get the necessary levels of Fin + HR in), while you got more options than before to build up the physical defenses needed to actually duke it out with the AoD without being a proper melee build, and the enemy force before the AoD usually isn't much of a factor, which all results in Longinus Diamond being one of easiest Diamond badges to get. I had ideas on sprucing the enemy loadout on harder difficulties here (namely, replacing the Lost Souls with Nightmare Souls on UV and then replacing the Pinkies with Nightmare Demons on N!), but the planned Enraged mode is potentially a big wrinkle here, as depending on how strict it is and if it gets stricter on harder difficulties, that alone could make beating Unholy Cathedral on harder difficulties a lot more arduous with the outspeeding strat. So I will want to see Engraded mode in action before really pushing for buffing enemy loadout on Cathedral.

The Mortuary
Aside from what I mentioned in my previous post about how ammo pickups should be added to compensate for respawns no longer dropping ammo, Mortuary's enemy loadout is otherwise fine as is on all difficulties; Mortuary should even keep the clear condition being having everything dead at once, since killing all the respawns is so central to its challenge and theming. If the disabled infighting flag is added, Mortuary should definitely have infighting disabled however. Additionally, having enemy here AI roam rather than patrol would be ideal, as patrolling AI does make it a lot easier when you no longer have to worry about being pincer'd (but if larger patrol zones are added with Enraged mode, that could be enough to bring back the difficulty lost from that).

Limbo
Like Mortuary, it should have ammo picks up added, disabled infighting, roaming AI (unless larger patrol zones + Enraged mode is added), and should retain the clear condition of everything being dead at once. Some adjustments to the enemy loadout though:

*On HNTR, add Nightmare Imps to the corpse pool, while also removing Nightmare Demons and Revenants. Having Nightmare Demons on HNTR made more sense back when Limbo had lava and Nightmare Demons had no lava immunity so they just inevitably killed themselves in it shortly after being resurrected, but now when that is no longer an issue here, the Nightmare Demons are far more threatening than the Nightmare Imps are and so can be rather much for a HNTR player to deal with. I would remove Revenants on HNTR too, as with them being fast and their undodgeable projectile that inflicts a lot of knockback, they are the most often source of knocking the player multiple tiles deep into fluids, and with Limbo now having blood instead of lava, that can be a swift death sentence for an unprepared player.

*On HMP, add Nightmare Demons and Revenants back to the corpse pool. Unlike currently how there's barely a difficulty bump in Limbo on HMP, you'll really notice the bump with this adjustment.

*On UV, add Nightmare Cacodemons to the mix as currently, as well as the new Nightmare Knight.

*On N!, add Nightmare Arachnotrons as done currently.

The Lava Pits
Fine as is on HNTR and below (well, the combat looks really light on ITYTD, but I'm not fussed about trying to make things harder on ITYTD). For HMP, all the preset Lost Souls could be replaced with Nightmare Souls, I think there should be somewhere that you can encounter Nightmare Souls on HMP in the standard game and individual Lost Souls are generally very unthreatening this late in the game. For UV, alongside keeping the Nightmare Souls, maybe you could replace a couple of the Pain Elementals with Nightmate Elementals if you want to have somewhere to fight them on UV but I'm fine without, the main challenge of Lava Pits is the resource attrition rather than the combat. On N!, I think it's about time that Nightmare Revenants get utilized by replacing all the Revenants with them here, and about half the Pain Elementals should be replaced with Nightmare Elementals too. This would be a big bump in the enemy force, but respawning is basically a complete nonfactor on this level, and currently N! Lava Pits really isn't any harder than it is on UV (there's also the proposal to remove the last radsuit, which could be done in conjunction with this, but the radsuit could be kept if you want to exhibit some mercy here).

Mt. Erebus
Lots to do here, Mt. Erebus is supposed to be the combat-centric alternative to Lava Pits but is a complete pushover on harder difficulties.

*First, add two more enemies into the innermost mountain (to make room for them, just move the two rocket stacks there into the outer ring), it is weird that only a single enemy is released with the final lever, while adding two more would also have inner mountain enemies be equivalent in number to the outer mountain enemies.

*Mostly fine as is on ITYTD, just make the aforementioned change (which would result in two Hell Knights being added inside the innermost mountain).

*Mostly fine as is on HNTR, just make the aforementioned change (which would result in two Mancubi being added inside the innermost mountain).

*On HMP, replace all the Lost Souls with Nightmare Souls for the same reason as in Lava Pits, but especially so here in the combat-cenetric counterpart level. The aforementioned change should additionally result in two Revenants being added inside the innermost mountain.

*On UV, keep the Nightmare Souls, but do not replace the Cacodemons with Pain Elementals, replace them with Nightmare Cacodemons instead (aside from Nightmare Cacodemons being a much bigger threat here and adding diversity in damage types, it differentiates this level more from Lava Pits, and is more faithful to the original Mt. Erebus in Doom, where it was the official Doom level with the most Cacodemons in it). Additionally, have the Mancubi back on the outside of the mountain, while replacing the 7 Revenants inside the mountain with their Nightmare versions (for this level this late into the game, I think UV can handle it, and it will make that lone radsuit a more stringent resource if you do not have very strong fire resistance on hand).

*On N!, in addition to keeping the Nightmare Souls and Nightmare Cacodemons, swap the Nightmare Revenants to the outside of the mountain, and then replace the 7 Mancubi inside the mountain with Nightmare Mancubi, introducing the last of the Nightmare enemies, who will eat away at the amount of safe land you have here with their acid splashing. I would also definitely remove the last radsuit here to really hammer in the threat of the Nightmare Mancubi and the subsequent battle with the Lava Elemental.

I mentioned previously, in the original proposal post about buffing the difficulty of Erebus a while ago, about how potentially Erebus could end in fighting two Lava Elementals, but with these big enemy buffs, perhaps that won't be necessary.

 10 
 on: March 06, 2025, 21:49 
Started by carthagodrl - Last post by carthagodrl
Hi Kantarza, I'm happy to report that as of the latest Winlator (version 10), this issue has been resolved with DTL version 0.998 :) My Gun Kata Scott is happily ripping and tearing his way through the internal hordes!

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