Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Kornel Kisielewicz on December 15, 2007, 21:18
-
As we have the Danger Level more or less solved (except the Cave and level types! Blade help!), there's the added problem of Monster Rarity. Up to date rarity has been controled only by the maxLevel and minLevel of a monster. A monster was choosen from the in range monsters. This however is a too big simplification. Some at least basic rarity differences should be in.
A note about difficulties -- similarily to the old system, the way difficulties are handled is that all the minlevels are decreased by the same amount, depending on the diff-level.
I tweaked the maxlevels a little, to reduce the amount of monster types that can appear at the same time. I also introduced rarity -- it doesn't differ much between monsters, but it allows for example to generate more cacos in hell than arch-viles or arachs.
I know you love my l33t OpenCalc skillz so here's another nice chart :P:
(http://forum.chaosforge.org/files/doomrl-monster.png)
This is how the chance are after implementing weight and tweaking max-levels.
The weights are 6 for everyone except:
10 - former human, seregant and captain
8 - imp
4 - arch-vile, mancubi, arachno
The weights function in a way, that they weight the random roll eg. if we had a choice of only arachno, demon and former human (4+6+10 = 20) then we would have 50% chance for former human (10/20 = 50%), 20% chance of arach (4/20 = 20%) and 30% for demon (6/10 = 30%)
DISCUSS!
-
So there won't be any former humans after level 13 and former captains after level 16? But where do I get my chaingun after that?!
-
So there won't be any former humans after level 13 and former captains after level 16? But where do I get my chaingun after that?!
Same question from me. I'll only rephrase it a little: does it means that from 21-st level RNG will spawn only Cacos, BoHs, Arachs, Mancubus, and Viles?
-
I think commandos have a small-ish maxlevel. As your main source of plasma ammo you'll probably need them until at least half-way through hell.
-
So there won't be any former humans sergeants after level 13 and former captains after level 16? But where do I get my chaingun shotgun shells after that?!
There, fixed the question for ya ;)
-
Fair enough, fair enough.
-
It's HELL after all, no one said it would be easy xP
P.S. Hmm, how about having arachnos drop a little cells, and mancubuses drop a few rockets?
P.S.2. And considereing that the item code is rewriten I could increase the amount of ammo in hell levels
-
It's HELL after all, no one said it would be easy xP
No one said it would be impossible for non-bfg'ers also :P
P.S. Hmm, how about having arachnos drop a little cells, and mancubuses drop a few rockets?
P.S.2. And considereing that the item code is rewriten I could increase the amount of ammo in hell levels
This might work...
-
It's HELL after all, no one said it would be easy xP
P.S. Hmm, how about having arachnos drop a little cells, and mancubuses drop a few rockets?
P.S.2. And considereing that the item code is rewriten I could increase the amount of ammo in hell levels
Hmm, i don't like this idea too much. Not because lack of ammo, that is solvable problem, but because i don't completely understand, why do we need to reject from lesser creatures on higher levels. In original DooM even on level 29 you can find Former Humans and imps, and it's are quite a lot of them there. Higher levels there are more harder only because overall sum of monsters toughness is higher than on early levels, because high-level mosters could be seen there more frequently, but all that lesser creatures was still there, and not in nominal quantity of 1-2 imps per level, but even more than on early levels(lots of imps and zombies and 1-2 Viles is not so weak combo). And one more reason: it would be simply not fun to fight only 5 types of very tough creatures in the end of the game.
-
So Blade? Do you have a suggestion?
-
Your weight sysetem is nice, it just needs to be dynamic, not static, as now. Sould be table of weights of monsters for every difficulty for every level(it also could serve purpose of "First level appearance table", so, for example, BoH on UV from level 1 till level 7 should have weight 0, so no chance of appearance). I have LOTS of work now, so can't propose specific values, but it's not so hard to create such table.
-
Your weight sysetem is nice, it just needs to be dynamic, not static, as now. Sould be table of weights of monsters for every difficulty for every level(it also could serve purpose of "First level appearance table", so, for example, BoH on UV from level 1 till level 7 should have weight 0, so no chance of appearance). I have LOTS of work now, so can't propose specific values, but it's not so hard to create such table.
The downside is that it needs a lot of work each time you add levels, monsters etc. A system with little variables is better because it will me a lot more easy to extend and mod.
-
How about having static "weights" for each monster and have the generator dynamicly adjust it down for lower levels? (for example let's say imp takes 4 space... after level, say 6th the game reduce weights of all monsters by 1, making the imp 3-space monster, after, say, 12 it woudl reduce by another 1 point to 2 etc.)
-
It would be wierd to have a single former human among a horde of AV's, wouldn't it?
-
Wasn't the idea to have the number of lesser monsters growing AND new monsters appearing, instead of JUST new monsters appearing and lesser dis-appearing? :P And assuming lesser weight = less "space" taken than reducing weight = more monster types can appear, and more of same type can appear.
-
I like blade's idea a lot, and I have an idea on how to implement it. The x strongest monsters in the game (Barring the 3 bosses of course) have their weights divided in to 2 parts (One far smaller than the other). The larger part is given to the greater monster, and the smaller part is given to a horde of level 2-4 monsters.
Let's say you gave 4 weight to arach/mancubus/AVs and 1 to their respective hordes, on level 20 of hard which gives a current challenge of 104 according to the danger level thread, you might get 3 arachs (27), 1 mancubus (12), 4 cacos (24), 2 AVs (28), 2 imps/a demon/a fh (Arachno horde, 9) and 3 lost souls/a captain/a sergeant (AV horde, 14)
All you need to do to make that a nice, balanced level is make sure the hordes don't split up after they've spawned. Perhaps make them all unable to open doors or something so they're at least in the same room.
To me, this doesn't sound like it's giving away free kills either, because imps, captains, lost souls and demons can do major damage if they're given the chance to hit you (There's 3 or more, you're gonna have to ignore one), especially if they happen to spawn near a greater monster (At which point I'd probly want to bring out a BFG or run away)
-
Now it's my turn to say thay i like Tomas's idea a lot.) That's how it was in original DooM, lesser monsters there were mostly in packs on later levels, in quantity, and with assistance of bigger monsters, they can deal some damage.
[Edit: My bad)]
-
mancubuses
It's mancubi, dammit.[/grammarnazi]
Tomas's
It's Thomas's... (Or is it Thomas'? I'unno, my name's wierd like that.)
-
This goes well with my idea of refining monster placement. The idea was that there are two special cases for monster placement:
-- Packs -- weaker monsters on higher levels generate in packs instead single (lost souls, former humans, imps fall into this category)
-- Minions -- stronger monsters on higher levels generate with an attache of some weaker monsters (the type depends on the original type -- you can have a former commando with a bodyguard of a few former seregants, or a AV with a herd of demons or imps at his side, or a PA with ready for battle lost souls)
Any idea what exact figures and matches to give here?
-
Minions sound like they should be common, so 1 for a greater monster, 2 for a greater monster/lesser monster combo, 1 for a pack of lesser monsters.
Of course that applies to the last 4 enemies only, if you want one for the cacos you'd probably do 3 for a caco, 2 for a caco/lesser monster and 1 for a pack, due to how whimpy a caco pack'll be.
-
You'll hate minions :
######## ####### # ##############
#....0.....................==...+...#
#..........................=........#
#.........................=.........# ...
#.......................===.........# .......
+.....0.>..............====..h.0....# ..........#
#.....................=.=.=.0.......# ...........#
+............0...............@......# ............#
#........0......... ................# ............#
#................ ...............#....0........#
#......... ... ........BB|....#.............# #+#########
#...0..... ......BBB.....#.............#...........#
###+#### #+#############.............#...........#
+.............#...........#
.............##+######+###
.............#..........
#############..........
+...........
#...........
###### #
John Romero Armor : none Phobos Base Lev12
Health: 100% Exp: 1/0% Weapon: pistol (2d4) [6/6]
cautious
-
Nah, I usually have a rocket launcher as my prepared weapon until I get a plasma rifle.
-
This whole minion thingy reminds me of Diablo and its random unique monsters. It'd probably be a tad too much to ask to get them in this game, though it'd be a fun idea. A real powerful demon named "Pitspawn Fouldog", surrounded by some normal strength demons. Or an Arch-Vile named "Blade the Annihilator".
So who's the one in the middle, anyway, the one of brighter red?
-
"Blade the Annihilator"
* Ilhar screams in terror.
This cannot be... BFG, anyone ?
That brighter one seems to be "Potmaniac the Terrifying", or else "Pot the Blade Summoner". I'm going to stop playing this game - it's growing too scary for me. ;)
And one more reason: it would be simply not fun to fight only 5 types of very tough creatures in the end of the game.
Blade is right. But minions are a good idea, anyway.