Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: Frankosity on November 27, 2009, 05:13
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With the fact that energy damage halves armour protection, I think DoomRL's plasma weaponry need a damage downgrade. As it is, a Former Commando can one-shot the player if you have any less than half health and decent armour, and Arachnotrons are no better. I can't count the number of times I've rounded a corner and instantly lost half my health to a lucky volley from an Arachno.
If energy damage is armour-piercing, I think it's reasonable to reduce the amount of damage energy weapons do to balance this out.
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Still, Arachnotrons are either pretty weak against close combat attacks or I've had a lot of luck so far. I agree on former Commandos though, however I think an accuracy downgrade for them would be more logical. Still, the plasma rifle is not that overpowered when used against a bunch of Viles and Mancubi. I'd suggest lowering former Commandos' accuracy and extending the Arachnotrons' melee weakness by making its attack a tad weaker so that hitting them with a chainsaw really becomes the trick to beating them.
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No. Arachnotron's ranged attack must be weakened too somehow. Seriously. (Unless the new armor damage system in the next version would already take care of that)
EDIT: Also, am I the only one who thinks Revenants are overpowered like that too?
EDIT2: Well... Actually I'd say every bigger enemy is more or less overpowered, really. Probably cause of the current armor damage system? (sorry for train of thinking :P)
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No. Arachnotron's ranged attack must be weakened too somehow. Seriously. (Unless the new armor damage system in the next version would already take care of that)
EDIT: Also, am I the only one who thinks Revenants are overpowered like that too?
EDIT2: Well... Actually I'd say every bigger enemy is more or less overpowered, really. Probably cause of the current armor damage system? (sorry for train of thinking :P)
The problem with Arachnotrons is that they have a rapid-fire, high damage, armour-halving weapon which hits pretty consistently, so they need to have SOMETHING about them nerfed. Firing speed, accuracy, damage, one of these needs to go down.
And yeah, Revenants are horrible. They take off a third of your health when they hit, and they never, ever miss. I think they should be closer to their Doom counterparts by having normal missiles and the homing ones.
On the note of Revenant homing missiles, I think it'd be an interesting feature if the homing shots could be outrun, like in Doom. The Revenant could spawn a Homing Missile, a * which moves about as fast as a Lost Soul and moves towards you in a straight line, not taking into account obstacles.
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They're all homing, but the thing the Doom is real-time, and missiles go upside-down, so you still can run away from them or bump it to the wall. Of course, it can't be in DooMRL.
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The Revenant could spawn a Homing Missile, a * which moves about as fast as a Lost Soul and moves towards you in a straight line, not taking into account obstacles.
Yea, that's a good idea. Actually that's how I imagined what the revenant's attack would be like by the time that bastard wasn't implemented yet.
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They're all homing, but the thing the Doom is real-time, and missiles go upside-down, so you still can run away from them or bump it to the wall. Of course, it can't be in DooMRL.
In Doom 2 the Revenant had two types of missiles, the homing ones and the non-homing, which did a LOT more damage than the homing projectiles.
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No. Arachnotron's ranged attack must be weakened too somehow. Seriously. (Unless the new armor damage system in the next version would already take care of that)
This is where I would suggest my unique item suggestion to be just a common item that spawns rarely: The energy armor. It's more tactical if there is SOME rock-paper-scissors element in it.
On Revenants: They are too fast. Melee characters rarely even get the possibility to chainsaw them. They should have a certain threshold of distance which, if you come closer than that (3-4 squares maybe) provokes them to use melee attacks. I mean: Revenants flee from you at the moment.
two-meter high skeletons with medieval-plate-armor homing rocket launchers who are masters of "undead fist-do". RUN from you. Me no likey.
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This is where I would suggest my unique item suggestion to be just a common item that spawns rarely: The energy armor. It's more tactical if there is SOME rock-paper-scissors element in it.
On Revenants: They are too fast. Melee characters rarely even get the possibility to chainsaw them. They should have a certain threshold of distance which, if you come closer than that (3-4 squares maybe) provokes them to use melee attacks. I mean: Revenants flee from you at the moment.
two-meter high skeletons with medieval-plate-armor homing rocket launchers who are masters of "undead fist-do". RUN from you. Me no likey.
They run away probably to shoot more rockets at you. They may be skeletons, but they ain't stupid.
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They run away probably to shoot more rockets at you. They may be skeletons, but they ain't stupid.
In the regular Doom however, revenants had the biggest and nastiest meelee attack of the whole game with that skeleton punch. Its somewhat disapointing that they don't have it in the RL.
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Please, enough with the Rev's. This is supposed to be about balancing (which I myself don't think necessary) the damage of plasma weapons.
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My apologies for remaining off topic, but I agree as well that the Rev needs to be nerfed. In Doom 2, the damn things were a push-over in wide open spaces.
On topic, I think plasma weapon damage is fine. After all, it's friggin' plasma, lol.
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I wonder whether reducing the amount of plasma "bullets" per volley would help.
Such reduction would work both sides (for marine and demons) - and could help reducing the strength of AmmoChain.
Another way of helping may be reducing armor downgrade slightly.
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Oh yes, those arachnotrons and revenants can cause real problems - lets nerf them!
- On the subject of massive damage - mancubi can kill you in a single turn from 100% health, so obviously nerf them too.
- While were at it, armour melting was mentioned in this topic - we should nerf barons because its their attacks that strip your armour down to nothing with acid, and they have too much health. Their armour-stripping is probably the reason arachs and former commandos are so dangerous.
- Then nerf hellknights, because theyre supposed to be lesser barons.
- Arch-viles are strongly considered the nastiest monsters in the game, their 2 undodgeable attacks would be ok were it not for them resurrecting corpses. Perhaps remove their resurrection ability.
- Then those former human sergeants can take a good 50% health off at close range - nerf them, and perhaps remove their knockback.
etc etc... ;)
You have to be careful of making the game too easy. I personally love the thrill of entering a spider cave level, knowing that danger is all around and I have got to do some serious tactical thinking to survive. Nerfing things would take this thrill away.
On a serious note - reducing plasma damage would indeed help reduce the power of ammochain, and isnt half a bad idea, but I think arachnotron and former commando accuracy should then be *in*creased to counterbalance this. Besides, there have been plenty of better suggestions to reduce the power of ammochain. The difficulty in the game is just about right at the moment, and certainly doesnt need making any easier, (in my very humble and single opinion).
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I know this is a sarcastic attempt at making a point with a slippery-slope argument, but still:
- On the subject of massive damage - mancubi can kill you in a single turn from 100% health, so obviously nerf them too.
But they're also massively innacurate, so unless you're in a highly confined space or up against a wall they're not going to instakill you. Death is entirely dependent on your own grasp of tactics.
- While were at it, armour melting was mentioned in this topic - we should nerf barons because its their attacks that strip your armour down to nothing with acid, and they have too much health. Their armour-stripping is probably the reason arachs and former commandos are so dangerous.
Actually, armour fragility is being fixed in the next beta. The reason Arachs and Commandos are so dangerous isn't because they can tear up armour, but that they're extremely accurate and plasma damage, besides being highly damaging in its' own right, also pierces armour.
- Then nerf hellknights, because theyre supposed to be lesser barons.
Hell Knights are perfectly balanced. They're a tad more dangerous than Cacodemons, but they won't one-shot you and can be taken down without receiving a single hit if you're at all proficient at the game.
- Arch-viles are strongly considered the nastiest monsters in the game, their 2 undodgeable attacks would be ok were it not for them resurrecting corpses. Perhaps remove their resurrection ability.
The Archviles' auto-hit attack is annoying, but considering they're the rarest, most dangerous enemy in the game, it's not entirely unfair for them to have that. Although I'm in favour of them having to charge the attack for a turn, like in Doom 2.
- Then those former human sergeants can take a good 50% health off at close range - nerf them, and perhaps remove their knockback.
If you're stupid enough to get that close to a Sergeant, you deserve to die. Once again, death is by no means guaranteed if you have half a brain.
You have to be careful of making the game too easy. I personally love the thrill of entering a spider cave level, knowing that danger is all around and I have got to do some serious tactical thinking to survive. Nerfing things would take this thrill away.
There's a difference between a challenge created by the need to think tactically and a challenge created by a massively overpowered damage type that can kill you in 1 turn when you've got Red Armour and over half your health left, or an enemy that literally never misses and can take off a third of your health in one hit.
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You were right about me just giving a sarcastic answer about a slippery slope argument. You didnt need to address each of my bullet points - I agree with you, theyre all ridiculous! :)
The point you didnt comment on, however, was the entire point I was getting at (in a somewhat stupidly roundabout way, I guess) - the game doesnt need to be easier, and a little fear of death is a good thing.
I know that nobody likes the idea of something just popping up out of the blue and killing them, but Id argue that such things rarely happen in DoomRL. In fact, if youre constantly watching out for every potential death, you can avoid all of them in 99% of non-nightmare games. In nightmare games, its the level layout that kills you, not a monsters high plasma damage.
Between this post asking for weaker monsters, and another asking for a revised ammo-holding system, I feel afraid that Kornel will take it on board and make the game far too easy.
I know your standpoint - you dont want things that the player is completely un-warned about jumping out and ending an hour of gaming. I assume this was why some people might like the idea of removing the dice rolls from the game. The fact is, though, that if the player can predict everything that happens, a lot of the intensity of a roguelike such as this is removed. Just look at angel of max carnage - I can categorically state that I find angel of max carnage far, far easier than a normal game, and far more boring too - its too predictable!
Without the danger of chance you just end up unconcerned about anything the game will throw at you, because if you exhibit generally decent play youll make it through the game, and nothing unexpected is gonna come rattle your cage. Plus, balancing chance is a large part of the strategy of this game.
With a random element, you start to fear, and it encourages players to be both cautious and creative in their playstyle.
Id like to add that, of course, a little chance *can* go too far. If theres something unavoidable that can come without warning and end a game, then yes, thats too far. The monsters mentioned in this thread, however, never do that. Even in angel of max carnage, a former commando will not kill a well-equipped player in 1 turn, unless you define turn as 25 turns (2.5 ingame seconds) rolled up together while I reloaded my BFG/doubleshotgun while standing in grope range of a commando, in which case the mistake isnt that of Kornels, its the players.
Furthermore, itd be ok even if he did have a chance of killing you - theres plenty of warning before you encounter such danger; former humans can be heard way before theyre seen, then can be led around, with giftdropping, into situations where the player can gaurantee not taking any damage at all from them (like you mentioned about hellknights)... Arachnotrons do less damage than former commandos, and make an incredibly distinctive sound both when moving and when you injure them.
Both the above enemies are incapable of killing a well-equipped marine in a single turn, and both are easy to avoid and tackle without taking damage. The only situation in which the danger really ramps up is in arachnotron caves, and even then, the player gets 4 free turns to put on his best armour, equip a rocket launcher, blast a spider or two out of sight range, then enter running mode. Smart player don their armour and rocket launcher before walking down the stairs. (on that note, the missile launcher already makes spider cave levels a lot easier)
Bottom line, in my opinion, neither of these enemies is anywhere near the realm of overpowered, both are merely dangerous, and that shouldnt be taken away. Of course, all our mileages may vary. :)
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Sylph. You have access to the beta. Go play the damn thing already. Exotics make the game a little easier, but you still have to work for your uniques, which can't be destroyed now, but you still have to take careful actions to make sure You aren't destroyed in the process of grabbing it.
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I'm at work, hence the posting. Don't worry, when I'm at home I'll not be wasting time typing out posts, and I'll get down to playing. :)
I am playing the beta exclusively these days. There was a very veiled reference to the beta in my last post actually (bit about arachnotron caves), but it was very subtle, so only beta members would pick up on it.
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Ah yes. I c wat u did thar.
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Attention masses!
Arachnotron caves are total bullshit and better recieve a nerf or I'll start writing VERY stern letters to Mr. Kisielewicz.
Former commandos are slightly bullshit, and require a certain amount of vigilance.
Pinky demons are still way too little of a threat and are generally bullied and threatened by more effective demons (even lost souls) in an ill-concieved attempt to get their (non-existant) lunch money.
Every other enemy/level type is finely balanced, even on Nightmare!.
That is all.
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Attention masses!
Arachnotron caves are total bullshit and better recieve a nerf or I'll start writing VERY stern letters to Mr. Kisielewicz.
Former commandos are slightly bullshit, and require a certain amount of vigilance.
Pinky demons are still way too little of a threat and are generally bullied and threatened by more effective demons (even lost souls) in an ill-concieved attempt to get their (non-existant) lunch money.
Every other enemy/level type is finely balanced, even on Nightmare!.
That is all.
QFT.
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Even in angel of max carnage, a former commando will not kill a well-equipped player in 1 turn, unless you define turn as 25 turns (2.5 ingame seconds) rolled up together while I reloaded my BFG/doubleshotgun while standing in grope range of a commando(...)
You are very, very wrong.
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Well, pinkies weren't really all that much of threat in Doom either so at least it's accurate.
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doomrl: epyon * r779 /trunk/bin/ (lua/beings.lua lua/items.lua version.txt): * Balance : arachs and commandos 1 less accuracy, arachs 1 less shot
doomrl: epyon * r780 /trunk/bin/ (lua/beings.lua version.txt): * balance : demons upgraded
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Ooooooooooo! This sounds like fun!
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Well, pinkies weren't really all that much of threat in Doom either so at least it's accurate.
True... Until you tried them on Nightmare/fast monsters
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Is something going to be done about revenants? Someone suggested that their missiles should behave like a homing lost soul instead of a rocket with 100% accuracy. I like this idea.
Even in angel of max carnage, a former commando will not kill a well-equipped player in 1 turn, unless you define turn as 25 turns (2.5 ingame seconds) rolled up together while I reloaded my BFG/doubleshotgun while standing in grope range of a commando, in which case the mistake isnt that of Kornels, its the players.
Yesterday I got killed by a commando in an AoMC game with 100% health and intact blue armor. I took one step forward, and because my move speed was slightly above 1,00 second a commando from beyond my LOS could shoot me 2 times. Game Over.
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6*6*2=52. Instakill. But in any other case plasma won't kill you. Arachno's are pretty fast, that's why they're deadly, but not because of damage. Maybe lowering their speed, or a heat-up turn, where they couldn't shoot - it could be. But lowering the plasma damage is a bad idea. It will make corner-shooting useless in late game. There you should avoid any plasma user and/or try to dodge his missles. If they're weakened then you could kill them without serious damage.
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Yesterday I got killed by a commando in an AoMC game with 100% health and intact blue armor. I took one step forward, and because my move speed was slightly above 1,00 second a commando from beyond my LOS could shoot me 2 times. Game Over.
So he killed you in two turns... That's the nature of angel of max carnage, and the reason ironman or toughasnails are a good idea while playing that game mode. If you're not taking ironman, not taking toughasnails, playing angel of max carnage, and on top of all that moving slowly, you're putting yourself in serious danger.
On that note, since agility mods on weapons are pointless in AoMC, it'd be a good idea to stick them on boots to avoid this.