Chaosforge Forum
DRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: Cobalt on January 08, 2010, 22:24
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Let me start by dividing the weapons of DoomRL into categories:
Rapids: chaingun, plasmar rifle, and Beretta.
Shotguns: shotgun, combat shotgun, double shotgun, shotgun uniques
Pistols: pistol and pistol uniques
Melee: chainsaw, knife, Cleaver, LS
Each have associated master traits and trait progressions.
Rapids get MAc, elevating them into the most powerful category even though the master trait heavily restricts access to defensive traits. The trait progression means the weapon category is rather strong from the Arena onward, although suffers from ammo inefficiency. At MAc, you get incredibly high DPS for no inventory cost in ammo. The rapids get stronger as you gain levels, to the point where they shred endgame enemies. They get plasma damage for free in the upgrade to plasma rifles.
Pistols lack the strength of rapids, suffering from damage issues and clip size problems. They are generally only used for challenge runs (AoMr or just pistol runs in standard games). They only get access to plasma though uniques.
Melee weapons have two great master traits in Vampyre and Blademaster, both of which are quite viable. Until Chained Court melee is very hard to play exclusively, but after aquiring the chainsaw, Brute 2 and Berserker melee becomes very powerful, supplying either huge amounts of health (Vampyre) or incredible speed (Blademaster). Either one grants huge armor boosts through berserking. They get plasma damage for free when they upgrade to the LS (something any melee build will almost certainly do).
Shotguns, on the other hand, while dominant in the early game, quickly lose power when faced with armored enemies. Shotgun users must build for the Army of the Dead trait if they want plasma damage, instead of getting it for free through a logical weapon upgrade. As a result shotguns aren't nearly as viable for solo-weapon-type runs. There are good shotgun uniques but none with plasma damage. A shotgun build must either sacrifice plasma (losing a lot of damage in late-game) or extra traits (Army of the Dead blocks Fin, HR, and EE). Either way they have a crippling late-game tradeoff the other mainline weapon categories don't really face.
Note: by getting plasma "for free" I mean that the plasma damage is an attribute of a weapon that is already desirable due to higher damage dice. For example, LS does 8d8 over 4d6 for chainsaw, PLUS plasma.
So now it becomes an issue of game vision. If the shotgun was always intended to have a supporting role, all is well. But if it was intended to be a main weapon, capable of taking the game on its own as the rapids and melees are, then shotguns should probably get a superior master trait and an alternate source of plasma damage. My own preference is a plasma damage weapon mod and a maser trait that causes shotguns to reload in 0 time, but I welcome suggestions.
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Shotgun uniques HAVE plasma damage, plasma shotgun, the most rare of them.
Pistols don't have it. Even the mighty Blaster (which I thought is from SW, not from the Q2) don't have it.
LS too, if I'm correct. But it doesn't need it.(And you forgot DS in the list of weapons)
But anyway, it's a good idea to swap TaN in requirements and HR in blocked traits, doing
Army of the Dead.
Requres: DM1, SM1;
Blocks: TaN,Bru,EE;
(And this will make destroyed the 2 master trait bug).
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perhaps make army of the dead also add +1 to to the max damage of each shotgun pellet? So that 8d3 for the normal shotgun becomes 8d4, and so on.
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Ummm.... Negative? Shotguns are fine. Very fine. They need not a boost.
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And they're very devastating to packed in groups. I don't see a need for a boost either.
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..I don't see any problem with shotguns.
They are allready the most verstile weapon of choice and keep their verstility as a main weapon with MAD easily.
They are pretty much the most balanced weapon of choice by now.
Only thing that might need fixing is how the hitscan works (which is probably fixed in 9.1 allready) and MAYBE few more uniques.
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Cobalt: I suppose you should consider the different possible playing tactics in order to make better use of the weapons. In my [limited] experience, shotguns can go very far, even in the late game, if one plays tactically.
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But if it was intended to be a main weapon, capable of taking the game on its own as the rapids and melees are, then shotguns should probably get a superior master trait and an alternate source of plasma damage.
I beg to differ. (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,2307.0.html)
No uniques, pretty much unmodded shotguns. Shotguns are fine.
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And it's still great for non-tacktical hack&slash style. But it's great on AoMC.
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Shotguns are fine.
MAD works wonders, especially with the Uniques. If you find a Jackhammer, the game is over. Knights die, Barons die. Rev's die. Viles die. Everything dies with MAD.
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Pain Elemental caves will probably demonstrate the power of MAD. Even with MAC I had to take quite a beating before I could put down the Lost Souls and Pain Elementals.
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i also like MAd , its very powerful when you start with tan tan bad
But i Would like the game to be winnable witjout Mad, currently on N!, youll get your ass handed to u if you dont pick MAD.
I even had som concepts, but when i heard of the exotics in next versions,
i actually thought that the game would get too easy.
Anyway, a second not necessarily master trait concerning shotguns would be
AWSUUUUUUUM!
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Pain Elemental caves will probably demonstrate the power of MAD.
Double shotty + shottyman is already more than enough to manage pain elemental caves.