Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: BDR on January 25, 2010, 23:09
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..and now I'm wondering why there's not an easier way in. I have nice stuff this game, but I can always use another unique and I would have really liked to get the badge for this as well as the 100% kills badge.
Edit: Thinking about it, there are three things that would make this less of a problem in my eyes. 1. Give the silver badge on defeating the two side vaults. 2. Make a series of teleporters that place you directly in each of the vaults (a difficulty increase but one which takes the buggeriness of trusting to random phasing to get you there). 3. Change homing devices so that you can pick your destination instead of them always sending you to the stairs.
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If you are playing the release version, the silver badge is bugged I think (based on the DoomRL Wiki).
Phase devices are highly unpredictable anyway. The probability that you will end up in the centre vault is slightly less than 20% (very rough estimate), if you count the total possible number of spaces that you land. Thus, the expected number of phase devices to reach the centre is roughly 5, on average. Using only three and missing occurs more likely than one might be led to believe.
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5 slots of inventory is quite a lot of space to be asked to dedicate for that purpose.
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Yes it is. That's why it is an achievement to complete the Vaults. However, Phase Devices are very useful in normal fights anyway -- combine them with small medpacks and you can be pretty unkillable in the long run. Oh, and fighting Cybie would be easier, since you could [usually] phase away to reload + heal before charging in once more to take him out, particularly if you have very bad dodging ability due to a lack of HR + DM.
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I'm a savescummer. I load my game about 10-15 times (with 2 phase devices in my inventory) until I get into the middle vault (on UV). I think the percentage of getting into the middle vault from 1 phase device is about 5% only. Does the RNG hate savescummer like me?
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I'd rather have the 5 slots dedicated to large medkits, mods I can use later, or a thermie than 5 phases. I'm not much for running from fights though.
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I'd rather have the 5 slots dedicated to large medkits, mods I can use later, or a thermie than 5 phases. I'm not much for running from fights though.
Try the City of Skulls on a higher difficulty level some time without using Shotguns. You will understand why stocking up on Phase Devices can some times be more beneficial than having many medkits.
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Try the City of Skulls on a higher difficulty level some time without using Shotguns. You will understand why stocking up on Phase Devices can some times be more beneficial than having many medkits.
Not exactly true. A rocket launcher will clean up just fine. :P
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I have to agree that while clearing the Vaults should be a difficult Achievement (tm) notwithstanding, forcing the player to phase into one of them is a rather inelegant way of doing it. You have to spoil yourself to figure it out; it vaguely reminds me of the rogue quest in NetHack. Much better to have to just rocket your way in, or walk through lava to find a hidden door, or something. Not like it'll make it any easier.
My 2c.
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..and now I'm wondering why there's not an easier way in. I have nice stuff this game, but I can always use another unique and I would have really liked to get the badge for this as well as the 100% kills badge.
Edit: Thinking about it, there are three things that would make this less of a problem in my eyes. 1. Give the silver badge on defeating the two side vaults. 2. Make a series of teleporters that place you directly in each of the vaults (a difficulty increase but one which takes the buggeriness of trusting to random phasing to get you there). 3. Change homing devices so that you can pick your destination instead of them always sending you to the stairs.
I did have the thought of making homing devices targetable, you probably wouldn't be able to target walls or barrels (even outside of LOS maybe), and teleporting would probably eat up a few points of health to balance things out. Maybe give Homing phase devices the option; go to exit, or aim, with a drop in health. Phase devices can put you even closer to the enemies you are trying to evade, so they are mostly useless to me, aside from the Vault and the Wall (for specific challenges).
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I'm a savescummer. I load my game about 10-15 times (with 2 phase devices in my inventory) until I get into the middle vault (on UV). I think the percentage of getting into the middle vault from 1 phase device is about 5% only. Does the RNG hate savescummer like me?
Ooo... savescumming = no bueno.
EDIT: Although, I'd be lying to say that I haven't done it before, lol.
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Ooo... savescumming = no bueno.
EDIT: Although, I'd be lying to say that I haven't done it before, lol.
Does that actually work? I thought the game loaded the last save, then removed it from memory.
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If we told you, you'd end up using it. :P
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Does that actually work? I thought the game loaded the last save, then removed it from memory.
You need to set up appropriate sacrifices to the BLOOD GOD and the RNG in order to have a small chance of it working. (=
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I didn't plan on using it (I find cheating, save-hacking, and save-farming like that to be a sign of weak player skill), I just thought an exploit like that could've/would've/should've been fixed. lol.
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I have to agree that while clearing the Vaults should be a difficult Achievement (tm) notwithstanding, forcing the player to phase into one of them is a rather inelegant way of doing it. You have to spoil yourself to figure it out; it vaguely reminds me of the rogue quest in NetHack. Much better to have to just rocket your way in, or walk through lava to find a hidden door, or something. Not like it'll make it any easier.
My 2c.
Quick reminder: This is DoomRL, not ADOM, not Nethack. There are only so many items. Finding the 1 correct item from 40 or so items isn't too hard, in comparison to 1 item out of several hundred items. This is nothing like giving an amulet of lifesaving to a dying man. This is "Brute force doesn't work? Holy crap! I have to think!"
Also: Hidden things in games are usually what make people play them longer. The "Easter Eggs" are the main reason that some people play.
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The troublesome thing about this particular gimmick is that IMO there's no way someone worth their salt as a player is going to carry five or more slots of phase devices and actually use all five of them in an effort to enter the center vault without knowing that is the only way to do it. Generally speaking, if you blow more than three non-ammo stacks in a single ordinary level it's a sign you've screwed up and are likely to pay the price for it. No other level in the game requires this kind of specialized inventory preparation in order to be completed. That "it's not NetHack" comment goes both ways; when was the last time you *needed* a chaingun to kill a Baron? :)
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Agreed. The Vaults are not really an Easter Egg, nor will the fact that I cannot enter the vaults make me want to play it more and more. I think most players will try what they can, become frustrated, and either not bother entering the vaults when aiming for 100% kills, or look through the wiki and forums if they want the badges/loot. There are other places where the player has to think and prepare largely ahead of time (Full win, DS, master traits), but none that I know of require so many items, so much luck, and so much risk. In the even that you actually make it into the center, you'll have an awfully fun time telling the denizens that they must leave... in bodybags. The risk/luck/preparation involved in entering the center vault does not outweigh the reward, IMO (few items, rarely exotic or unique in center).
So, we could make it easier to enter the center (walk through lava or something), or make the Vaults more rewarding, more worth the 5 PDs likely needed, and akin to the name; "Vaults" make it sound like awesome treasures. Guaranteed Unique maybe?
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Agreed. The Vaults are not really an Easter Egg, nor will the fact that I cannot enter the vaults make me want to play it more and more. I think most players will try what they can, become frustrated, and either not bother entering the vaults when aiming for 100% kills, or look through the wiki and forums if they want the badges/loot. There are other places where the player has to think and prepare largely ahead of time (Full win, DS, master traits), but none that I know of require so many items, so much luck, and so much risk. In the even that you actually make it into the center, you'll have an awfully fun time telling the denizens that they must leave... in bodybags. The risk/luck/preparation involved in entering the center vault does not outweigh the reward, IMO (few items, rarely exotic or unique in center).
So, we could make it easier to enter the center (walk through lava or something), or make the Vaults more rewarding, more worth the 5 PDs likely needed, and akin to the name; "Vaults" make it sound like awesome treasures. Guaranteed Unique maybe?
Thats excatly how I feel.
Each time I ever happen to carry those 5 PD's and try the center vault, I'll each time make sure I'm either berserk or invulnerable when I start phasing. The risk of the revenant&vile pack that greets you on enter is just... Too damn risky versus the reward. I haven't personaly yet cleared the vaults as I've each time died or ran out of phases when trying to center vault. Hell I even once got there and cleared it..! Only to get stuck.
Though one other thing that could probably help is actually adding phase devices themselves inside the vaults. And generally better reward.
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With the 'sealing it with lava' idea, you'd need an envirosuit pack or two, which is far easier to obtain than the phase devices. Also, for an idea of mine, how about make it similar to the wall, with a single large room in the center surrounded by many layers of destructable walls, and then you just need a bunch of missiles to get in.
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I like the idea of adding in phase devices, maybe have a few appear on the outer vaults. Lava and layered walls would work, but the level area in the vault is somewhat limited as it is, so the level would possibly need a large redesign to add a lava or walled passage. The easiest change would be to provide a few phase devices in the vaults; the challenge of entering the center still remains, but then players would have more chance to be able to successfully enter. Also, this would make the Vaults completable even on AoI!
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Maybe you should turn the "creative" method of entering the middle vault into a Simon's Quest of standing in some random dead-end for like, 300 turns until a blue tornado whisks you away to the middle.
I agree in adding phase devices to the level. I'd go with one in each of the side vaults: forces you to actually do some work and has a chance of some enemy using them instead (I know at least Barons will use them, so ITYTD/HNTR will at least suffer in this respect). As per the comment on badges, why not change them to reflect the higher chance of successfully completing them? Getting the Bronze for simply entering is ridiculous as it is (compare to the Mortuary, where a player who knows not what they're doing will in all likelihood get killed). I'd reorder them as follows:
- Scavenger Bronze: Scavenge the Vaults (ie, get into and kill what's in the side vaults)
- Scavenger Silver: Complete the Vaults (same as Bronze but also the middle)
- Scavenger Gold: Complete the Vaults on UV (same as Silver but Arch-vile/Revenant combo is freaking HARD, even with the BFG)
The jump between "clearing it" and "clearing it on N!" is pretty huge unless you're willing to spend large quantities rockets on the side vaults, potentially destroying all those cells and rockets you need to finish the game.
I've only entered the center vault once, and for what? An Anti-Freak Jackal. Sure, it's a great pistol, but it's the kind of I thing I would want 1.) On a AoMr run and 2.) Much earlier, ideally before the Wall.
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Look, the vaults has always been a luck-based mission. The *only* problems I have with the vaults are the Silver and Gold badges, but that's because I'm a bit of a wuss when it comes to relying on the RNG.
Although I agree that there needs to be some guaranteed way to escape the center vault... make teleporter tiles undestroyable by anything short of a nuke, and then put a teleporter to the far right side of the stage (that is, the teleporter lets out on the opposite side from the exit stairs).
Having said that, perhaps having the teleportile let out next to the stairs could offset the reliance on luck via AMBUSH!
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It might have been just luck, but when I used a phase device in the lava in the right vault, I ended up in the center vault.
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I've figured out the phase device trick on my own pretty easily... But I assumed it was a workaround. I'm actually pretty disappointed to find out there's no cleverer way in :-/
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It's all luck based man...i once had 1 phase device and it got me to the treasure room of the wall and i blasted my way out with the advanced rocket launcher.