Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Requests For Features => Topic started by: thelaptop on March 02, 2011, 18:43

Title: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: thelaptop on March 02, 2011, 18:43
We need one more way of distinguishing the elite from the Über-elite.  In the cases of the Medals, the Cross versions are often the highest, in celebration of a particular achievement of skill.

But let's up the ante higher.  For each of these types of medals, let there be a trophy for the champion of champions.  And what are the conditions, you may ask.  Achieving the near impossible by performing the cross requirements at N! AoMC, a true test of tactics, since the elements of the RNG are all but eliminated.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: MaiZure on March 02, 2011, 20:40
I like the sentiment - but I'm at a 'no' right now simply because there doesn't seem to be a real value to it. Right now, I view the achievements system in two buckets:

1) Do this to earn promotion (badges)
2) Do this to earn glory and bragging rights (medals)

I'm having trouble thinking of a relevant 3rd bucket that achievements would fall in to.

If it's simply a matter of more varied names: there are plenty of military decoration examples we don't use, such as:
Aiguliette - The color ropes that dress uniforms have from shoulder to chest
Epaulette - The shoulder ornaments
Orders - A generic term for a medal awarded by a regent (king)
Etc.





Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: Deathwind on March 02, 2011, 21:18
It sounds like he wants LESS varied names for the medals that have more than one level (all level 1s are bronze, all 2s are silver and so on)
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: thelaptop on March 02, 2011, 21:25
It's more of an extension to #2 of MaiZure's list than anything else.  The idea is that in the usual course of the game, there is the random factor that can aid the achievement of a certain medal, be it a mis-roll on the opponent or a series of particularly good ones on the player.

By making a new class of medals using AoMC as the backdrop, we eliminate this random element and truly test the capabilities of the player.  It's really a test of determinism more than anything else.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: Nameless on March 02, 2011, 21:50
Using AoMC to remove random elements is a lost cause when the levels themselves are randomly generated - I can think of no shortage of runs that were greatly impacted by finding a powerful unique or spawning in a dangerous position, but literally none where combat damage was abnormal enough that I even noticed.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: MaiZure on March 02, 2011, 21:52
I want to like the idea because shiny medals are fun...I just feel that trying to "normalize" rewards through specific gameplay requirements isn't a truly 'fun' approach to playing.

True, the current medal system essentially scalps the "best-case" and even a mediocre player could earn some of the best stuff by relentless brute force play. I feel that it is more fun than a "normalized" system. Randomization = fun for me.

I'm open to new ideas and more examples though. please post more on this!
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: thelaptop on March 02, 2011, 22:33
Quote from: Nameless on March 02, 2011, 21:50
Using AoMC to remove random elements is a lost cause when the levels themselves are randomly generated - I can think of no shortage of runs that were greatly impacted by finding a powerful unique or spawning in a dangerous position, but literally none where combat damage was abnormal enough that I even noticed.
This suggestion is with respect to specific feat achievements, like the Chessmaster series.  Thus, there will not be an "Aurora Trophy".  The purpose of the tropy is to reward technical mastery of the game mechanics.  Thus the use of AoMC, since it eliminates that chance factor that might have permitted a sloppier game play -- it demands perfect play from the player.

For purposes of spoilers, I cannot reveal the list of all possible medal series that fall into this category.

Quote from: MaiZure on March 02, 2011, 21:52
I want to like the idea because shiny medals are fun...I just feel that trying to "normalize" rewards through specific gameplay requirements isn't a truly 'fun' approach to playing.

True, the current medal system essentially scalps the "best-case" and even a mediocre player could earn some of the best stuff by relentless brute force play. I feel that it is more fun than a "normalized" system. Randomization = fun for me.
Again I am appealling to the notion of perfect play here.  The intention is not to normalise anything, it's just another way of demonstrating a superior grasp of the actual mechanics that drive the game.  I am not belittling the "cross" versions of the medals -- I just want to enhance it by making the conditions stricter.

No one has to obtain the trophy versions of the medals.  It is not for what our usual notion of "fun" is -- it is specifically designed for the people who want to have something more solid to brag.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: MaiZure on March 02, 2011, 22:40
Well..

Since it's one of those features that only matters to 2% of players, it's fine by me.

Send those ideas to the God Hand and put 'em in. I know I won't ever see em!
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: Tavana on March 02, 2011, 23:48
It's an idea that could have merit: I don't like the form you've presented it in.

There are some problems with it as well. For example: The Chessmaster's Cross that's just been discovered. This could NOT have a trophy of the style that you're talking about be made, since AoI or AoMs is a requirement.

Things like the LoS being not perfect currently would make this unfair at present as well. And currently all these badges can be played with many different play styles. But once you throw in AoMC, you reduce the player's options to be able to complete it significantly.

This screams to me of "This is exactly how you have to play this level, do it right and you get a trophy." While there is some call for that sort of thing, a while range of trophies requiring just that seems...not to fit it with the rest of the medals and badges, let alone the idea of Doom the Roguelike.

TL;DR: Good idea, needs better execution.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: AStranger on March 03, 2011, 00:33
Quote from: thelaptop on March 02, 2011, 22:33
...The purpose of the tropy is to reward technical mastery of the game mechanics...
This is an idea I can get behind. Maybe not exactly as it is presented, but it feels like the core idea is to create challenges that rely on skill more then luck. Currently at least half the diamond badges require far more luck than skill to complete. It sounds like the AoMC requirement is an attempt at curbing the luck factor involved in completing challenges. I've thought for a while now that early N! levels should have either more or guaranteed berserk packs. Sure the pacifism diamond can be achieved without a lucky early berserk, but badges like the arena diamond, demonic and such aren't really even viable without an early berserk pack. Attaining certain diamonds shows much more about your persistence to get lucky than it does about your skill.

In short, I don't really care what form it comes in, I just really want to see more challenges that don't need untold amounts of luck to complete. Enormous amounts of skill is fine, but I grow tired of 're-rolling' characters to find one suitable to even attempting a challenge.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: Midnight on March 03, 2011, 09:11
I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole idea, but AoMC is a poor choice - since it's probably the easiest challenge mode, and pretty susceptible to brute force play too. 
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: grommile on March 03, 2011, 12:24
Quote from: thelaptop on March 02, 2011, 22:33
Thus the use of AoMC, since it eliminates that chance factor that might have permitted a sloppier game play -- it demands perfect play from the player.
It eliminates one chance factor (damage rolls) and minimizes another (to-hit rolls). It doesn't eliminate dodging and it doesn't eliminate the quite large variance in the amount and type of supplies that are generated.
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: Game Hunter on March 03, 2011, 12:48
If AoMC involved no luck at all, I would be able to write a step-by-step explanation of how to get these trophies. That's not the point: the game rewards and punishes you far more for the decisions you make on every turn, which makes it a lot easier to survive if you make the right decisions.

Anyway, it's not like these could be applied to everything anyway. I think thelaptop was talking about the no damage medals (in Arena, HArmory, Mortuary, possibly others), wherein taking no damage is simultaneously hard and easy on AoMC. Adding N! is a changeup, especially with the respawning factor. I could also imagine a UAC Trophy for like, 200 kills without taking damage on N! AoMC (or maybe a lot more, heh). Same with the Untouchable set. If you want me to write them out:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The reasoning I see behind this set of medals is that AoMC IS easier, but N! AoMC is still really hard. The nice thing about medals is that they're only there for bragging rights, so balancing is one less thing to really worry about. (Which is to say, no one cares if everyone has a particular medal, even it's supposed to be hard.) I think you'd be hard-pressed to tell that N! AoMC Arena no damage is easier than just doing Arena no damage. You could generalize it so that it's simply N! added, but everyone knows that all the gains would be from AoMC runs anyway. (To drive the point home: all the no-damage or damage-taken badges we've seen so far don't exclude AoMC, which is to say you can use AoMC to get them.)
Title: Re: Trophies Class of Medals
Post by: Ander Hammer on March 04, 2011, 05:21
I really don't think we need another medal category to separate the elite from the uber elite.