Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: MaiZure on May 10, 2011, 20:42
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The rumor is that this will indeed make it in to 0.9.9.4 but there isn't much talk about what it's supposed to be. So I'm just going to pull this post out of thin air to generate discussion (AND motivation for Kornel). The only other thread I've seen on it is the list of build names created back in February, located here:
http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3970.msg32847.html#msg32847
Some assumptions going in to this are:
1) Classes won't affect actual gameplay, but will be an information layer on top of existing system
2) Not at classes are viable (which means painful RNG fun in trying anyway!)
Brief Description:
As noted in the post linked above, your trait selection determines your class. Gameplay proceeds are normal
Player files will track your ultimate Class AND difficulty level victories
For example: If you beat the game with Army of the Dead (MAD), your class will be Stormtrooper.
Difficult level determines degree:
ITYTD/HNTR MAD = Novice Stormtrooper
HMP MAD = Journeyman Stormtrooper
UV MAD = Master Stormtrooper
N! MAD = Elite Stormtrooper
This will add a new screen to the player files that will read like a list of 'discovered' class combos and the difficulty level you managed to win using that class. Right now we have ideas for 50 classes based on either Master Traits or two two advanced trait combos. Can you beat even ITYTD with ALL of them???
Pros of the system:
1) Enhances Standard game replayability
2) A new system of 'discovery' of classes, much like assemblies
3) Probably at least one new badge series
In a nutshell: I see this system can add great value, especially to replayability to Standard games. Obviously 'Challenge' games will dictate one or two dominant classes anyway.
Ideas for expansion:
*Somehow buffing a player in N! gameplay for achieving Master in a specific class and USING it in N! :P
*New Badge series for being a <Novice,Journeyman,Master,Elite> in 10,20,30,40,ALL classes
Please everyone throw in ideas to steer us in a good direction!
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Add in a badge series of "All Rounded DRL player". Among the possible classes, award a badge when a minimum proportion of them have been discovered. This will help encourage experimentation and will also indirectly help test DRL1 more since those crazy badge hunters are more willing to try the "weird" combinations to find out the edge case scenarios.
=P
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The class of Storm trooper doesn't really seem like a good match thematically for army of the dead to me. Maybe something like Deadite Slayer? Or some army of the/evil dead reference?
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The class of Storm trooper doesn't really seem like a good match thematically for army of the dead to me. Maybe something like Deadite Slayer? Or some army of the/evil dead reference?
The proper place is to suggest something new over here (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,3970.msg32847.html#msg32847). That's where all the build names come from anyway.
=)
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As long as it doesn't affect gameplay and remains an "information layer" as said I'm cool with it. One of the strengths of DoomRL imo is that, like Doom, it is entirely classless.
If it does indeed serve as a way to encourage people to try different character builds it would be pretty great actually.
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One of the strengths of DoomRL imo is that, like Doom, it is entirely classless.
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/5/4702/thumb_620x2000/vladimir-lenin-vladimir-lenin.jpeg)
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A spectre is haunting Phobos—the spectre of communism. All the powers of old Hell have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Cyberdemon and JC, Angel of Death and Lava Elemental, Archviles and Hellish ninja-sergeants.
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As far as classes go, three are planned -- Marine, Scout and Technician
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As far as classes go, three are planned -- Marine, Scout and Technician
Got more hints on how this is currently envisioned so that folks can thrash it out here?
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Just as a guess, perhaps it's all to do with backpack space and movement speed?
Marine=standard DRL player. Scout=-3 backpack spaces but faster movement. Technician=+2 backpack spaces with slower movement.
Am I even a tiny bit close Kornel?
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No, from what I've heard in chaosforge IRC it seems they could be way more different than that, up to having different trait trees.
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No, from what I've heard in chaosforge IRC it seems they could be way more different than that, up to having different trait trees.
I'm seriously disliking this notion, but perhaps only because I like the system the way it is. Why complicate it?
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Would that involve modifying the existing tree, or simply using this one as the base of the Marine class?
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I think a bit of division would be needed, doesn't whizkid sounds more like a skill for a technician?
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Not necessarily - it's an advanced trait for a Marine. Maybe it would be a Basic trait for a technician, or they'd get a special version with added benefits.
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Ok, let me rephrase. Why do we need a class system?
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Since you asked.
Is there any reason why there shouldn't be one?
(The original Doom had one class. But DoomRL has gone way beyond the original, in both game design and complexity. That would be the only argument I could see being vaguely valid for a reason not to do it. Kornel has made some pretty damn cool things out of a bit of IRC talk or forum suggestions. There's no reason why this wouldn't be just as good. It would make it quite a different game, with room for new master traits, different build styles and different tactics being an option. Free WK(1) for techies to make most assemblies possible? A HR level at the start for scouts? Or something completely different? Who knows where Kornel will take it? MAc is fixed now, this could open a whole new world of build revisions :) ).
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If DoomRL is going to have a class system where all the traits are grouped into various trait trees and the choice of the class initially will forever limit what traits can be taken, then I'm going to say nay. One key aspect of the relatively "flat" trait structure that we have now is the flexibility in choice of build based on situation. This does not preclude the whole requirement tree that we currently have. But if we introduce a class system where you must first choose the class which then limits your choices of traits, I think it is very counterproductive -- if there is a need for trait restriction, the various challenges by the form of Angel of <X> are sufficient in persuading a certain build.
Even if there are specific bonuses for the class via the synergies, it still does not deal with the fact that you have to make a choice immediately before the game starts. DoomRL is a relatively short rogue-like as compared to others, so the whole concept of "character development" is shady at best. Why do we need to artificially limit ourselves in the choice of traits at the get-go when we are not likely to be traversing the whole class tree?
I think that the current Master Trait set up is sufficient. I'm all for the cute and interesting titles for the various types of builds that people do -- it is not artificially limiting, but it does add a little flavour to what will effectively become a cliched choice of traits for a cliched type of run.
In short, unless I have more information on how Kornel wants to do up the class system, I'm going to say no to it.
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I personally had an idea wherein the traits would have somewhat varying effects per class (Whizkid giving more extra mod slots for a Technician, for example), with the new classes having a couple of the Marine's Master Traits that fit as well as a few new ones exclusively available to them.
But the important part of that is that the ones the Marine is locked out of be new - add, don't subtract.
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Do you know how the classes idea came to be? Originally (and i heard him say so himself), Kornel wanted to have more traits but had no room for them on the trait screen, so instead of rewriting the trait screen to allow scrolling or branching, which would require a lot of work indeed, he decided to just add classes to the mix.
You know what would solve the issue above, besides classes? Making only traits that can be picked (or are already picked) visible on the trait screen. So, for example, you would only see the basic traits at first, but once you have worked your way through Finesse you would see Whizkid in the list, and once you have both Badass and Berserker you'd see Vampyre. Of course, every trait would have a list of Requires, Unlocks and Blocks traits, so you'd know what you're working towards. Unfortunately, when i suggested that, he shot it down because it "wasn't transparent enough" (implying that the classes system would actually be so). That, completely ignoring the fact you could have a one-line description next to the traits in the Requires-Unlocks-Blocks list, that experimentation is quite within the spirit of roguelikes, that there are plenty of other non-obvious and non-transparent things in the game already, that the entire trait tree can be included in the in-game manual (does nobody read those things anymore?), and that we have the wiki.
Considering all the above, i am strongly against classes in DoomRL. But, then again, who am i, anyway?