Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Mortem Archives => Post Mortem => 0.9.9.3 => Topic started by: Missileboater on July 02, 2011, 17:31

Title: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Missileboater on July 02, 2011, 17:31
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 DoomRL (v.0.9.9.3) roguelike post-mortem character dump
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 Missileboater, level 5 Hell Baron Lt. Colonel, defeated the Cyberdemon
 on level 25 of the Phobos base.
 He survived 51867 turns and scored 23585 points.
 He played for 41 minutes and 34 seconds.
 He was too young to die!

 He killed 120 out of 310 hellspawn. (38%)


-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 6
  Levels visited   : 1
  Levels completed : 0

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  Sunrise Iron Fist

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

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  ###########################################################

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 45/50   Experience 7161/5
  ToHit Ranged +0  ToHit Melee +4  ToDmg Ranged +0  ToDmg Melee +6

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

    Hellrunner       (Level 2)
    Brute            (Level 2)
    Berserker        (Level 1)

  Bru->HR->HR->Bru->Ber->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armor      ]   modified red armor [4/4] (57%) (B)
    [b] [ Weapon     ]   nothing
    [c] [ Boots      ]   tactical boots [1/1] (100%)
    [d] [ Prepared   ]   nothing

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] green armor [1/1] (100%)
    [b] blue armor [1/2] (49%)
    [c] red armor [4/4] (100%)
    [d] shotgun shell (x50)
    [e] shotgun shell (x9)
    [f] large med-pack
    [g] large med-pack
    [h] phase device
    [i] phase device
    [j] homing phase device
    [k] plasteel boots [4/4] (100%)

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    24 former humans
    26 former sergeants
    3 former captains
    34 imps
    24 lost souls
    1 cacodemon
    1 Cyberdemon
    2 hell knights
    3 arachnotrons
    2 former commandos

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 15 he encountered the Phobos Hellgate.
  On level 18 he ventured into the Spider's Lair.
  He fled the Lair, knowing how to fear Arachnotrons!
  On level 20 he encountered an armed nuke!
  On level 21 he encountered an armed nuke!
  On level 21 he assembled a tactical boots!
  Then at last he found Phobos Arena!
  On level 25 he finally defeated the Cyberdemon.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 You start running!
 The Cyberdemon fires! You dodge! Boom!
 You hit the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon reloads his rocket launcher. The
 Cyberdemon hits you.
 You use a phase device. You feel yanked in an non-existing direction!
 You stop running.
 You use a small med-pack. You feel healed.
 You hit the Cyberdemon. You feel like a killing machine! You're going
 You see : a Cyberdemon (severely wounded) [m]ore | floor
 You hit the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon hits you. You need to taste blood!
 You see : a Cyberdemon (mortally wounded) [m]ore | floor
 You hit the Cyberdemon. You need to taste blood!
 You hit the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon hits you. You need to taste blood!
 You see : a Cyberdemon (almost dead) [m]ore | pool of blood
 You hit the Cyberdemon. The Cyberdemon dies. You feel relatively safe
 now. Congratulations! You defeated the Cyberdemon! Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 Before him 118 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 81 of those were killed.
 1 of those was killed by something unknown.
 3 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 7 couldn't handle the stress and committed a stupid suicide.

 Some rumours though, say that the Cyberdemon was killed already!
 Is he immortal? 26 souls claim to have killed him...
 25 killed the bastard and survived.
 1 showed that it can outsmart hell itself.

--------------------------------------------------------------

I know ITYTD games don't count for much, but this was one of the toughest games that I ever played, it made the UV wins look like a joke. Being afraid of everything that was tougher than an imp really screwed up with my experience here, think I was only clvl 3 by the time I reached Phobos Hellgate.

Gift dropping really helped in the starting levels. Think I had the late-fork layout for Phobos Entry though, so I just had to take a shotgun blast really early. But, I did have all four medpacks so I decided not to quit. A few of the first levels had wide open areas with rivers running through with the stairs right in the middle. Tried to gift drop my way through, but it was awkward without doors and the area was too open, so I got shot a lot just for trying.

After killing enough enemies for a level up, I decided to just take the Hellrunner path instead of trying to go straight for Berserker, since I was taking way too much damage early game just to get by. Some people like to take Tough as Nails in this situation though, so I'm not sure which is generally better in this kind of run. Somewhere in between the start and Hellgate, I manage to pick up an agility mod and used it immediately on my boots for a much needed speed boost. Since I'm taking the speed path I was aiming for enough speed to outrun demons as they're big trouble if I get spotted by them. In the next level I found a shockwave pack near the entrance and this was an extremely vital item in this run. I was glad to at least have it.

When I reached Phobos Hellgate, I noticed that I was only at clvl 3 ( Brute and 2 Hellrunners ). With what I have I realized that I had to rely solely on nukes to beat the game, but I didn't find any yet. As I ran through the area and release the first pack of enemies, I realized that it was only lost souls and cacodemons on this difficulty. This was when I took the chance and ran ahead to the door to use as a chokepoint to kill a few Lost Souls, which brought me to clvl 4. I just knew it in my gut that I probably won't find a nuke with the number of dangerous enemies that populate Phobos Hell. Dodgemaster would've been nice, but I just felt it won't be any good if I got to the end can't even get past the Cyberdemon's armor a third of the time. So, I took a second rank of Brute in hopes that I will be able to rank up one last time for Berserker. It was the only other option I had left. Cacodemons were already at the door now, so I shut it quickly and made a dash to the portal.

Phobos Hell really felt like Hell. There was a chance that opening a door would just make me take a critical hit from a Revenant behind it, or have Arch-viles just chase me and there's nothing I can do about it. There wasn't many opportunities for me to get experience at all, as they're all tough enemies, in large groups, or both. There's been more than one instance this run where I would've died if I didn't have any homing phase devices ( in case of pain elementals and lost souls ) or envirosuits ( long lava rivers with no bridge in sight ). However, still no sight of a nuke.

For pretty much the rest of the levels I had to descend the stairs whenever I find them. I was either getting chased by Arch-Viles and Barons or getting surrounded by a horde of lost souls accompanied by pain elementals. I felt extremely vulnerable, there was absolutely nothing I can do but run. In one instance I was chased by an Arch-Vile, found the stairs to the Spider's Lair, but was reluctant to go into there so I tried to run some more, but then another Arch-Vile appeared in front of me. So I to choose between running from two super-fast and super-accurate Arch-Viles, or a horde of plasma-rifle spiders. Finally decided to take the chance at Spider's Lair since I remembered the stairs weren't too far from the entrance. I think I made the better choice, since Hellrunner + running got me through without much damage, while the Arch-Viles would've just caught up to me and burned me the whole way.

Encountered two nukes on the stairs back-to-back, but thankfully the stairs weren't too far apart. Also found another agility mod nearby and it was really helpful as I'm now fast enough so that I'm almost on par with Arch-Viles in my less-restrictive armor. Further down, I reached level 24. It was an Arachnotron cave with the stairs in sight. My first reaction was just to make for the stairs and just continue, but then I took a step back and look at what I have. I haven't found a nuke yet, so I can't get an easy win against the Cyberdemon. I was also still at clvl 4 ( 2 Brutes and 2 Hellrunners ), so I know I won't even scratch the Cyberdemon at all if I choose to fight it out. So if I don't gain a level here, then there would be absolutely no chance of success, and all this would be for nothing. I took the chance, and tried to gain some experience ( was at 70-80% ). I still had about a dozen turns of invincibility left, so I quickly took a step towards the closest arachnotron and hit it a few times until it died, and it got me up to the 80s. Now this is where things got desperate. I had no invincibility and I can't survive a melee match against an arachnotron while its friends are shooting at me. I grouped up the arachnotrons, turned on running, and just kept sidestepping as much as I could to try to make them destroy each other. It worked, so now I'm clvl 5 and can take Berserker. Also, I didn't take much damage from it at all due to the dodge bonuses of Hellrunner and running. I quickly descended the stairs to avoid further damage.

Upon entering, I quickly equipped my power modded red armor and got behind a pillar. I waited until its footsteps were really loud, then sidestep out to get its attention. It followed and now we're 1 square away from each other. I turned on running, then sidestep the first rocket, got in close while it reloads, take a hit, then back off. I manage to keep this triangle dance up for a while until it got a rocket to hit while sidestepping. This knocked me back a fair bit and i had to heal up. 6 medkits used and my armor starting to get badly damaged, I noticed I wasn't doing much damage to it at all ( didn't get a single Berserk yet ). so I looked at my inventory for options. Right near the bottom was the shockwave pack that I saved up from way earlier in the game. This was the last time to use it, so I thought might as well. The Shockwave pack got him down to 'severely wounded'. However, he got an extra melee hit on me then. I panicked and backed off and hit hit me with a rocket. I had to heal up and tried to sidestep closer, but I got hit by the rocket's splash damage and my red armor destroyed. I then realized how close I was to the wall, and I couldn't keep up because I'll either get hit by his melee or his splash damage. I phased out, thankfully it teleported me to the other side of the arena. It allowed me to heal up and put on backup armor. I sidestepped my way back towards the Cyberdemon's location, it appeared by it didn't fire at me. I sidestep a few more times and it still didn't fire. I thought it was out of rockets ( it really wasn't, but I wasn't paying attention ) and that was a really bad thing. If it goes into melee-only mode, that means that I can't dodge any more of its attacks and I'll be done for. So I ran up to it as close as I can without giving away a free turn, turned off running to maximize damage, hit it, and berserk activates for the first time. I thought that this was it, if I can't kill it now then it's over. So I hit it, checked its status, and noticed that I'm now actually doing real damage. Once more, and the Cyberdemon explodes.

I'm glad I got through it, but it was really intense the whole way through. Playing without guns or even the small knife made me feel really weak in comparison to pretty much everything else. Leveling up may have helped, but I might've been way too cautious in the beginning. I may try for Strongman Platinum in the future, but for now I think I'm going to take a break from fist-only games.
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Game Hunter on July 03, 2011, 12:57
It's possible to kill everything if you have a lot of luck early on and a little luck later. The right level combinations (namely those that allow you to gift-drop most enemies) with a healthy number of globes get you to the point where you can start zerking effectively. Here's a [E|YAAM] fist run I managed about a month back. I recall the last levels being really annoying when dealing with Viles, but the MBm path makes it fairly easy getting to the VMR packs without taking too much damage. Malek's Armor helped a lot too, although nanofiber red was working before then.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Regarding your game:

Quote from: Missileboater on July 02, 2011, 17:31
I decided to just take the Hellrunner path instead of trying to go straight for Berserker, since I was taking way too much damage early game just to get by. Some people like to take Tough as Nails in this situation though, so I'm not sure which is generally better in this kind of run.
Because of the double healing factor in ITYTD and N!, many agree that MBm is preferred. For the most part, it depends on what master you'd be aiming for in the long run. Vampyre supplements a melee run in that it gives you a fighting chance while unzerked (healing off of easier enemies, damage reduction) while Blademaster complements the zerking aspect in that you kill instantly (which gives free turns of zerk).

Quote from: Missileboater on July 02, 2011, 17:31
Somewhere in between the start and Hellgate, I manage to pick up an agility mod and used it immediately on my boots for a much needed speed boost. Since I'm taking the speed path I was aiming for enough speed to outrun demons as they're big trouble if I get spotted by them. In the next level I found a shockwave pack near the entrance and this was an extremely vital item in this run. I was glad to at least have it.

Just as a heads-up, you CAN use any weapon in a fist-only or similar challenge, you just can't KILL anything with those weapons. To this extent, picking up a rocket launcher for wall-blasting or rocket-jumping can be vital for these kinds of runs, particularly as you make your way to Strongman Platinum/Diamond. I'm mentioning it here because this is how I picked up the agility mods at CC in the run posted at the top.

Quote from: Missileboater on July 02, 2011, 17:31
Encountered two nukes on the stairs
back-to-back, but thankfully the stairs weren't too far apart.
Depending on your state, it may have proved worthwhile to search for invulnerability globes on those levels. If you find one, it's very possible to wait out the nuke and reap the experience from all enemies being destroyed on the map.

Sounds like a real struggle against the Cyberdemon (but those are the most fun ones!) and glad to see you made it through in spite of the odds against you. As for the Strongman series (or at least starting with Gold), it's REALLY difficult to pull off. In many ways it's like Angel of Pacifism, although you lack the auto-leveling. Given the scaling, you either need to be lucky enough to level often in the early stages or lucky enough to glide past the stairs, snag the Mort nuke, and clean house. Not many have picked those badges up past the Gold, even.
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: ParaSait on July 03, 2011, 13:42
If only you could mod fists... :P
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Missileboater on July 09, 2011, 16:06
Sorry for the late response, but when you said that I can't kill anything with the weapons, does that mean they can't hit any enemy at all? Like if a rocket splash hits an enemy, and later I go up and punch the enemy to death, does it count? I'm just not completely clear on this part.
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Game Hunter on July 09, 2011, 17:33
Quote from: Missileboater on July 09, 2011, 16:06
when you said that I can't kill anything with the weapons, does that mean they can't hit any enemy at all?
It is exactly what the word "kill" is. As far as I know the game only checks what you've used to attack with when an enemy dies. Thus, as long as the weapon in the equipped slot is your fists when an enemy dies (regardless of whether or not you killed it, in fact!) then the game will count the death as a fist-kill. It can be hurt to one HP before you switch to fists and it'll still count. (This is, however, a very dangerous practice, especially since enemies could die to splash or randomness while you're abusing it. For wall-busting, you're usually safe if you're careful. Keep it in mind when you're nuking!)
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Missileboater on July 09, 2011, 20:08
So if the killing blow was a punch, but I had a shotgun or something equipped in the primary slot, the kill would've been counted as a shotgun kill? That's the only thing I'm not sure of at the moment.
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Game Hunter on July 09, 2011, 20:51
Quote from: Missileboater on July 09, 2011, 20:08
So if the killing blow was a punch, but I had a shotgun or something equipped in the primary slot, the kill would've been counted as a shotgun kill?
Yes, it'd count as a shotty kill. It's the same issue as using a Trigun to nuke in a fist-only run: because you have to hold the Trigun in your hands to nuke (and thus kill everything), all of those kills are pistol kills.
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: thelaptop on July 09, 2011, 21:46
Quote from: Game Hunter on July 09, 2011, 20:51
Yes, it'd count as a shotty kill. It's the same issue as using a Trigun to nuke in a fist-only run: because you have to hold the Trigun in your hands to nuke (and thus kill everything), all of those kills are pistol kills.
This will also explain why I jumped from Cacodemon straight ot Hell Knight -- due to my Angel Arming with the Trigun on AoPc, I ended up killing Mancubi with "pistols", even though I did no such thing.

But don't be too ashamed of your ITYTD fists run -- it is not an easy challenge and doing it on ITYTD does make it a little easier to get used to it.  =D
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Deathwind on July 09, 2011, 21:51
Does overloading a nuclear weapon also count as the weapon?
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: General Patton on July 09, 2011, 22:01
Overloading will drop a nuke with the standard 10 second timer and leave your hands nice and empty.
Title: Re: [E|38%|YAVP] Fists-only was hard for me, even on easy
Post by: Deathwind on July 09, 2011, 22:18
Good to know, I've been playing this for years and I don't think I have actually used one like that...