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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: spacedust on February 29, 2012, 06:32

Title: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: spacedust on February 29, 2012, 06:32
Is a real work of art... Died a couple of times on ITYTD to it. Uggh... Am I just too lousy a player?
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: ZicherCZ on February 29, 2012, 06:52
Is a real work of art... Died a couple of times on ITYTD to it. Uggh... Am I just too lousy a player?
Well, she can take a lot of hits, and will hit back hard, _and_ in plasma damage. Two volleys can take you from 100% health to YASD easily
Precautions: If invulnerability or at least berserk is not available, then be sure to grab some armour with high plasma resist. Blue armour provides 20%, but won't make it itself. I was incredibly lucky to have a plasma shield against her, backed up with berserk. With 95% percent resist, she did no more than 1HP damage per hit, and she missed a lot too, so I simply could stand and BFG her.
Don't forget about cornershooting, running and all those things. You'll get her eventually.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: spacedust on February 29, 2012, 07:37
Does it still have a poor melee attack? I got up close and personal, but the many suits of armor melted off faster than I could shoot. I was busy replacing the sodding armor every other turn (and medpacking) lol.

The rebalance this time round feels like there's a lot of interesting choices (eg blue being useful against plasma).

Edit: I was playing MAD with Berserker. Funny that berserk didn't trigger, though I warrant it's because of the plasma attack (like against arachs).
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Game Hunter on February 29, 2012, 08:03
The only real change to the Spider Mastermind has been that its melee damage was brought up to boss level: this is to prevent the very obvious exploit of simply walking up to her and using your ranged weapons in melee. There's been plenty of work done on an entirely unique AI for the Mastermind, we just lacked the proper testing to make sure it wouldn't be too easy or too hard. It'll almost certainly get into the first beta.

Funny that berserk didn't trigger, though I warrant it's because of the plasma attack (like against arachs).
Berserk's damage trigger requires at least 1/3 of your max HP in a single shot: this means that each individual shot from a volley counts separately, and they do not add up to the total damage taken in the attack.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Robsoie on February 29, 2012, 15:11
In previous version the major difficulty was to manage to get in melee without being annihilated by plasma at range, get surprised by the boss direction, and in 2 shots your character was dead.
Now that's a complete different story as it can destroy the player as easily at melee or at range, the most funny is that even taking a large medic kit is often not enough to prevent the insta death that follow (you losing a turn to use the medic kit, while the Spider deals plasma/melee death just after).

So now , unless the player is obviously lucky enough to find good plasma-protecting items, the Spider Mastermind is a very hard challenge even at the lowest level of difficulty.

edit : retrying a saved game, it looks like the Trigun (assuming you have maxed every damage bonus dealing traits) + power red armor can beat it , only at melee, and only if you managed to get to melee without having been hit by a plasma (that would then have hit your health and armor level too much to hope anything)
After that, taking large medic kits while shooting+reloading is enough, but it's very close in term of health, the armor got destroyed a turn before the end in melee, the character would have been dead if it had one more turn
So unless lucky enough to find plasma protecting items, it's always going to be solved by how quickly and without being hit you can get to melee.
And even so be sure to have good armor and good damage dealing weapon.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Matt_S on February 29, 2012, 17:49
I haven't fought the mastermind in this version yet, but if you want to get into melee without getting shot, why not wait around the corner of a pillar?
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Angles of death on February 29, 2012, 18:37
Hey, could someone tell me when I fight each boss? I want to prepare a bit, so I don't get crushed.

[EDIT]Anyway, I'd suggest doing a LOT of cornershooting. I haven't attacked it yet, but it may be one of the only ways to beat it when you have low health.

[EDIT] I am fighting the mastermind right now. What I do is I shoot a rocket at it and run around a pillar until it walks away, then I shoot another rocket. I have a full tactical armor set on, which really helps.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Robsoie on March 01, 2012, 01:19
On the multiple attempts i did before beating the Spider Mastermind, i noticed that its AI has been changed in a way that makes it completely unpredictable, meaning that corner shooting are not as usefull as they were, and making it so more difficult to get in melee than previous version

Typical spotting :
(http://i.imgur.com/yKKkj.jpg)

Expected Spider Mastermind move , leading you to corner shoot :
(http://i.imgur.com/2wiya.jpg)

But more than half the time  instead this is what will happen :
(http://i.imgur.com/rjaRQ.jpg)

And all of that (unpredictable move, 2 or 3 shots kills) in the lowest level of difficulty, can't even imagine at Hurt me plenty or Ultra-violence.
The Cyberdemon can be difficult, but it's nowhere close to the Spider Mastermind.

That's really the kind of boss fight in which you'd like to have Intuition 2 (unfortunately blocking some other traits) to have corner shooting usefull.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Klear on March 01, 2012, 02:08
I think I only fought the new mastermind once, and it was with malicious blades, so it wasn't that much of a problem.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: ZicherCZ on March 01, 2012, 04:17
You don't want to get her into melee range nowadays.
I learned the hard way. 50% health down in one melee attack, and where was my AoSg run.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: spacedust on March 01, 2012, 06:32
You don't want to get her into melee range nowadays.
I learned the hard way. 50% health down in one melee attack, and where was my AoSg run.

Now I feel better that it isn't just me lol. She just chews you up when you get into melee. I was all like, eat my twin barrels of buckshot, and she was like, NO WAI, and the armor just melted right off. I mean like foooom it was gone, suit after suit.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Stormlock on March 01, 2012, 17:31
Is that description it has going to be changed? Telling the player it has a chaingun and not plasma is really cheap when it does, in fact, do plasma damage.

As far as tips, I've had the luck to be able to nuke it so far on my encounters, but intuition 2 should let you corner shoot it to death, (and without that, remember you can use blind shots with a shotgun to listen for the sound of injury as a poorman's version) and berserk + a chainsaw with  a T,B, or P mod should let you win in melee pretty quickly. If both those options are out because of a challenge or whatever, I guess you'll need to hope for the plasma immune armor or plan to gather the guaranteed nuke + invlunv combo.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Robsoie on March 01, 2012, 18:25
I found what looks like to be a very good anti-Spider Mastermind build :
(http://i.imgur.com/xn3u2s.png) (http://i.imgur.com/xn3u2.png)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: IronBeer on March 01, 2012, 20:39
I found what looks like to be a very good anti-Spider Mastermind build :
<snip>
Nice! I haven't yet tried out Entrenchment, but that trait + a humble blue armor grants a respectable 50% plasma resist.

Also, peeps who might be having some trouble: don't forget that BFGs will always hit the targeted tile, even when firing blind. Spidey won't try to demolish the pillars like the Cyberdemon, so if you can get into a good cornershooting position, you can destroy her without ever being under the gun. Try to grab/save a couple Power Batteries just for this fight- each one contains essentially an extra 3 BFG blasts.

Not having tried a melee build yet, I don't know exactly how much more powerful she is, but I'd wager that a dedicated Berserker-based or Malicious Blades build should handle the Mastermind without making too much of a mess.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Deathwind on March 01, 2012, 20:49
it looks like need to fight JC for any chance at all for a win now...
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: ih8regin on March 01, 2012, 22:05
yesterday won an AoLT HNTR, yes berserk and maybe some armor assembly is the way to go - the hardest part will be trigger the berserk. I was lucky with an invulnerability tho :D

BTW, what type of damage does Mastermind now have in melee? I expect its melee weapon is no longer "fists" of whatever kind, but plasma/acid instead.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: void on March 01, 2012, 22:14
In previous version the major difficulty was to manage to get in melee without being annihilated by plasma at range, get surprised by the boss direction, and in 2 shots your character was dead.
Now that's a complete different story as it can destroy the player as easily at melee or at range, the most funny is that even taking a large medic kit is often not enough to prevent the insta death that follow (you losing a turn to use the medic kit, while the Spider deals plasma/melee death just after).

So now , unless the player is obviously lucky enough to find good plasma-protecting items, the Spider Mastermind is a very hard challenge even at the lowest level of difficulty.

edit : retrying a saved game, it looks like the Trigun (assuming you have maxed every damage bonus dealing traits) + power red armor can beat it , only at melee, and only if you managed to get to melee without having been hit by a plasma (that would then have hit your health and armor level too much to hope anything)
After that, taking large medic kits while shooting+reloading is enough, but it's very close in term of health, the armor got destroyed a turn before the end in melee, the character would have been dead if it had one more turn
So unless lucky enough to find plasma protecting items, it's always going to be solved by how quickly and without being hit you can get to melee.
And even so be sure to have good armor and good damage dealing weapon.

Just killed the Mastermind in my first 0996b - first time saw this spid in my life, and I got to say I felt extremely lucky that
1, I got the correct armor equipped;
2, I've chosen the Shotgun path thus spent my unused perks in Ironman, without which I'm sure to lose in the situation you described (one large med and back to 26% and yes with 50% torso resistance, w/o ironman I'm a goner).

Spoiler: Mortem (click to show/hide)


On a side note, seems its now possible to have mAC & mAD at the same time. intended?



Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: IronBeer on March 02, 2012, 00:14
On a side note, seems its now possible to have mAC & mAD at the same time. intended?
Master traits have historically been a one-per-character deal. I don't think that's changed, and probably won't change in the future.

Also, Army of the Dead and Survivalist could possibly go together. There might be other "possible" masters, but you'll be blocking a LOT of other traits if it were actually possible.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: RSO on March 05, 2012, 12:08
I just found a ballistic shield on Hell6. 95% melee resistance makes for a very disappointed mastermind.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: spacedust on March 05, 2012, 18:55
So melee resistance works against the melee attacks, and plasma against the ranged ones?
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: RSO on March 05, 2012, 20:46
So melee resistance works against the melee attacks, and plasma against the ranged ones?

Yeah. Gotta' have one or the other, since she's got 150% speed to close if you try to just cornershoot. Unfortunately, there's nothing that offers much in the way of either that isn't Unique or Exotic.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: GrAVit on March 07, 2012, 00:16
I killed the bitch with  a few hits on AoB.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Zecks on March 07, 2012, 08:23
Zerking is probably still the easiest way to beat her (and since in 90% of my games I get berserker I barely noticed the change.)
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Ashannar on March 07, 2012, 15:49
I just beat her easily with scout + tactical armor + tactical boots + intuition 2. You outspeed her without running.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: MDM on March 07, 2012, 17:21
Now wait...

...her?...
...she?...

The Spider Mastermind is female???

...
...

--------.--------
        |
      \(|)/
     --(")-- *you sexy thing*
       /`\


;)
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: ZicherCZ on March 08, 2012, 02:41
The Mastermind is reffered to as the mother of Arachnotrons in Doom 2 and subsequently in DoomRL.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Klear on March 08, 2012, 03:45
Danger! TVTropes link! Do not click at work!

It's All There in the Manual (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllThereInTheManual).
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Pricklyman on March 08, 2012, 04:40
Thank you Klear for wasting the last hour of my life...

*sigh* Damn TVTropes...
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Zecks on March 10, 2012, 11:11
Zerking is probably still the easiest way to beat her (and since in 90% of my games I get berserker I barely noticed the change.)

Okay I'm not so sure anymore. Suddenly the new version's started kicking me in the balls repeatedly. Just now I tried this again on HMP AoLT (gonna get golds to 15 so I don't need to focus on them anymore to rank up) and had to end the game with overcharge nuke with 2% health left. (though it was brought down from 8% because of the Necroarmor)
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Klear on March 10, 2012, 11:57
Shottyhead + tactical armour + tactical boots + tactical shotgun = mastermind's brain, extremely easy.

So I guess my advice is that it's all about tactics =)
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: Ashannar on March 10, 2012, 13:37
Yeah.. it's all about speed. I just had a game where I could corner shoot it around a single pillar with impunity. 0.46 movement, 0.66 firing. Zerking w/ heavy armor is pretty effective too.
Title: Re: The new Spider Mastermind...
Post by: AlterAsc on March 10, 2012, 14:16
My strategies:
With Berserk and LS i kill in melee.
Without it i just nuke us both.
If no nuke then i don't know since i always had nuke or Ber.