Chaosforge Forum
DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: Kornel Kisielewicz on March 23, 2013, 17:18
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So, some time passed since the release, and I'm really interested on your opinions on the new special levels! Short and long opinions all welcome!
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omgz 2 shamblers
2scary4me
on a less sillier note, the shamblers seem to have ridiculously high hp/resistances to bullets/shrapnel (there was a thread on the post-mortem subforum talking about this), and the phobos lab was really cool, with the levers and stuff, and those are the only dungeons i got to see, so i can't really give my opinion on the other ones.
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I think that Phobos Lab is much harder than Military Base (thanks to nightmare demons and unavoidable ambushes), Containment Area isn't equal to The Wall (maybe the later needs some changes?) and new Halls of Carnage was a nasty surprise (but I liked it),
Haven't seen Limbo and Mount Erebus yet (is this some "store two envirosuits for whole game" level too?)
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So far the new levels have been lots of fun. The difficulty is about right. Still haven't played some of the higher end special levels like limbo or Erebus. Could cut down on the ambushes though.
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Containment Area is a fair bit easier than The Wall. Not only that, but if you're not feeling up to the challenge it's also easier to take a partial reward. Giving the player the missile launcher before they even need to fight the barons is a huge shift in difficulty and I don't feel like there was anything to balance it back to "as hard as The Wall".
Everything else is pretty fun and well balanced. I would say that halls of carnage is still a tad easier than spider's lair but I've only done the new halls of carnage as a Shottyhead scout, so I was essentially custom-built for perfect close-range cornershooting which is what halls of carnage is all about. Maybe I'll have more trouble doing it with pistols or something.
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Please see the ongoing discussion about HA vs DL: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6171.msg53570/topicseen.html#msg53570 (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6171.msg53570/topicseen.html#msg53570)
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Military base: really a lot of fun! And just about perfect for the depth you find it. I like the special formers. :) I also like how there is a guaranteed item to help you out with the second half of the level if you know where to look.
Phobos Lab: I agree it's harder than the military base. The biggest problem is shortly after hitting the final lever. I ran into some nasty situations that required a phase in that place.
Containment area: I agree that it's a little easier than the Wall. I also found it humorous that I had the backpack in my hands before I saw the first enemy the time I ran through it.
Abyssal Plains: I had a nice rapid fire cateye build going on. Clearing out the hell knights and barons was a cakewalk. I got a little cocky and wasn't at all prepared for what awaited me in the center of the level! After almost dying, I successfully phased out, thank goodness, and was able to clear the level. I like it. If you prepare for it, it's a nice alternative to City of Skulls.
The one with all the levers: Yeah, I wasn't at all prepared for what all my lever-pulling would unleash. It's a fun level, though. I like camping the teleporter exit area and slaughtering enemies one by one. :D But yes, the boss encounter is very difficult.
I'm kind of indifferent about the new Spider layout. It didn't seem to make much of a difference to me. I'm disappointed that nuclear plasma rifle isn't the prize for beating it anymore, though. As for the rest, I haven't been man enough to enter them yet! Soon.. soon.
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Haven't played much myself now that the new version is out, but what levels I've seen I've liked.
(Excpecialy the Millitary Base.)
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So far I've seen the Military Base, Phobos Lab, the Wall (on revised Depth) and new Spider's Lair, all of which seem very good to me.
For the City of Skulls I've not seen any significant changes yet, but that's probably due to still having to reach it on HNTR+.
As indicated by Maizure above, the Deimos Lab came as somewhat of a shocker to me.
All in all, I think they make for a better game, with the added randomness of it.
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Well, tomorrow I think about start such a topic but think that I need more testing. First impression:
- well, new special levels seems better. Randomness of paired levels is a great.
But lets look on 9.9.6 special levels. They are all challenging and make a chain of dependencies - you need complete one or two for (easy) completing another.
Hell Arena - challenge. You need to complete it if you want Rocket launcher (and break the Wall) and if you want get Arena Master Staff for breaking Vaults.
Chained Court - challenge. You face a strong AM who can resurrect enemies. You need complete CC for easy scavenge Vaults.
The Wall - challenge. Only Phobos-7 (and player level about 5-7), and for breaking wall you need previous win on Arena and get Rocket launcher. Reward not only backpack, but also Missile Launcher - great weapon for dealing with Bruiser Brothers on next level.
Halls of Carnage - challenge. Lava flood + former sergeants + demons + cacodemons/hell knights + closed doors. And BFG make things much easy on next special.
Hell Armory - challenge. No dependencies, but a good level for everyone. ...who can kill shambler.
City of Sculls - challenge. You need beat this for more easy handling corpses on Mortuary
Spiders Lair - of course challenge. At this point we have a master trait ready. MAc + nuclear plasmagun means no more ammo needed. Only some rockets... And nuclear weapon means nuke possibility, critical for Full win.
UC - every melee char must win that level for getting absolute melee weapon and...
Mortuary - give us a second part of set, armor. One of most challenging special level.
Vaults - challenge. Just good place for getting experience, some badges and rare weapons.
Lava Pit - of course challenge. And you need complete it and get reward for full win.
New special levels have not such dependencies anymore.
New Arena - good.
New Chained Court - yes! both layout, and without Arena Master it extremely good.
Phobos lab/Military base - both are nice. A good two levels, very "doomish" in style. But not so challenging (for that depth we are need some more dangerous) - and no missile launcher as a reward for next, Anomaly
The Wall/Containment Area - both are excellent but... for that depth we have something plasma/rocket firing and not so challenging anymore. And not need win on Arena for breaking them.
Deimos Lab - ouch! The best one. With insane difficulty and 2 shamblers. But... not equal Hells Armory! And not for that depth, IMO. Dangerous like opened Vaults.
Abyssal Plains - good. But... are you sure that Agony Elemental must be on ITYTD?
Halls of Carnage - at new depth it becomes easy, and paired with Spiders Lair???? Why? :( was nice have both (AND, not OR)
Limbo - excellent pair for Mortuary, no comments.
Mt Erebus - excellent pair for Lava Pits, no comments.
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Change Mort/Limbo+UC (demons to N! demons V to N! V...) after special conditions (uw cond) (if they were not satisfied then normal spawn). Also You can change ME and LP.
Archangel of minimum damage (you deal min damage always enemies — maximum).
Archangel of should be selectable in double angel.
Adjust the hell armory to be equal to DL.
New special level:
"You feel that you're playing different game"
On this level there will be enemies from different RL with items from those RLs.
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And Archangel of Infinity (IC in adom)
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Special levels for Ao100-666:
Boss base: You're fighting with bosses C, M, JC, and so on.
Abandoned base: A base with insane marines.
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And Archangel of Infinity (IC in adom)
no, no references to ADoM here. ID in ADoM is interesting and have a lot of things like weapons, armor, spellbooks, potions and so on. Monsters have levels and rat lvl 10 is more dangerous than troll level 1. We have a lot of possibilities like gardening, alchemy, reading books, pickpocketing enemies and so on. Descending to infinity in DoomRL just booooring. Imagine: past level 300 only monster for such danger level is a Cyberdemon. And you are welcome to infinity of Cyberdemons )) Again and again. Until you die. Not funny at all. Sorry.
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Well, the ADOM reference I made was to the fact that your _character_ can literally die of old age there, mostly after ghost(lords and kings) attacks. Two or three hits and your troll is toast, and even grey elves won't last forever.
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no, no references to ADoM here. ID in ADoM is interesting and have a lot of things like weapons, armor, spellbooks, potions and so on. Monsters have levels and rat lvl 10 is more dangerous than troll level 1. We have a lot of possibilities like gardening, alchemy, reading books, pickpocketing enemies and so on. Descending to infinity in DoomRL just booooring. Imagine: past level 300 only monster for such danger level is a Cyberdemon. And you are welcome to infinity of Cyberdemons )) Again and again. Until you die. Not funny at all. Sorry.
Aro666 is grind.
AroI isn't intended to be funny so as Aro666.
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I have not played much games still, so hust a few notes:
Out of three arena types one with courner-cutted pillars is much harder that other ones (it is not suited for corpsestacking at all)
New CC is great, new CC+ is the same as old and that means that it is great.
Phobos lab harder than military base. I think military base difficulty increase needed.
Deimos lab is way harder that armory, i think that some layout tweaks to DL needed.
The wall - very easy, it wasn't hard before when it was on lvl7 and now it is just super easy. Containment area - looks really hard, not sure though.
City of skulls - missile launcher reward is useless (since it is later than the wall).
The rest I either still didn't see or they are just like in 0.9.9.6.
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Died in Containment area during my N!/100% run.
Easier than the wall? No way.
Suddenly there's ton of enemies behind you, no cover in front of you, and you're pretty much screwed if you don't have a phase device. Perhaps with missile launcher and several tons of rockets it's possible, other than that i see no way out.
Compare that to the Wall, where you choose how you're going to fight and always can back out if things go wrong.
Phobos Lab is much harder then Military Base. N! demons can rip doomguy in pieces extremely fast anyway and here they're stuck, meaning that you need to come close to get them and uh-oh, they're already eating. Non-melee builds have it incredibly tough.
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Surely there must be a safe way to get the demons' attention from a distance. A rocket, maybe?
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Although the topic is about the new special levels, I feel I must add that the normal level progress has been greatly improved as well. New creations mainly seem to be in the last 8 levels, in which I've seen some very interesting new designs (the islands in the lava lake for example, connected by little walkways, and the new barracks type levels, with the less rectangular layout).
Barrel distribution seems to be more balanced too, more fuel and acid on deeper levels instead of just lava. I do seem to be getting a high amount of barrel-packed levels (not the extreme ones, but still), though this might just the luck of the draw.
All in all an improvement that is not to be underestimated.
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complete one more game and start think that new special levels position (wall, HoC, CoS) ruine game completely :( maybe on N! it is not so, but I can't win on N!
On ITYTD-HNTR-HMP difficulties now I enters special levels only for more experience, but not for "I need win here because I need reward for next". IMO need rearrange them again, and not pair HoC with spiders. Like next:
Phobos:
1. Hell Arena at 2-3
2. Chained Court at 3-4
3. (not on ITYTD) Military Base (unpaired!) at 5-6
4. The Wall/Containment Area at level 7 just before Anomaly
Deimos:
1. Halls of Carnage in current edition (no Supercharge, just large health) at D2-3
2. (not on ITYTD) Deimos Lab with 3 layouts. If both Arena and CC uncompleted, =Phobos lab. If any 1 of them completed, = Hell Armory. If both completed = Deimos Lab. Well, "Phobos lab" need some changes like random rare armor and weapon - not just blue + combat shotgun. At D4
3. City of Sculls/Abyssal plains and no Agony Elemental on ITYTD at D5
4. Spiders Lair (ouch, please return nuclear plasma OR give nuke as a reward :'( ) at D6
(btw new spiders lair layout good only for shotgunners/melee. A lot of walls - rapid weapons and rocket launchers sucks here)
Hell:
1. (not on ITYTD) UC
2. (not on ITYTD) Vaults
3. (not on ITYTD) Mortuary/Limbo
4. Lava Pits/Mt Erebus
7 special levels on ITYTD and 12 on more difficult games.
What are you think about?
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new special levels position (wall, HoC, CoS) ruine game completely :( maybe on N! it is not so, but I can't win on N!
Why does this ruin things? Personally I think moving the Wall is much better, since now I don't hesitate to enter when previously I'd sometimes skip it; CoS/AP is a nice trade (don't really care about Agony Elementals anymore, regardless of difficulty level), and I haven't seen the new HoC, but SL is nice and in the right place, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't even play UV, let alone N!.
What exactly is so bad about it?
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What exactly is so bad about it?
Phobos Lab is just a 2 mod packs for free + experience. Anybody wants that blue armor and combat shotgun? No? Ammo? No place in inventory?
Anomaly becomes harder without Missile Launcher
The Wall at new position too easy.
No BFG when enters CoS.
kill Spiders is a part of badges, but level not guaranteed - you can again and again get HoC
HoC at new position too easy. Just kill'em all and get BFG for free.
no nuclear plasma = no guaranteed full win (nuclear BFG on Mortuary can be destroyed by explosion :( )
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Phobos Lab is just a 2 mod packs for free + experience. Anybody wants that blue armor and combat shotgun? No? Ammo? No place in inventory?
Same goes for the Military Base, I guess. I think mod packs (plus a load of different standard weapons and armours to use them on) are pretty good rewards in the early game.
Anomaly becomes harder without Missile Launcher
Not much, IMO. On ITYTD a RL took care of the Brothers before they could lay a finger on me, on HNTR a tactical shotgun (on a Shotty build) was more than enough. Depends on the game you're playing, but in most cases it's not that bad I think.
The Wall at new position too easy.
Possibly. What about the Containment Thingy? Haven't seen that one yet.
No BFG when enters CoS.
Same thing with the missile launcher, depends heavily on the game whether this makes any difference.
kill Spiders is a part of badges, but level not guaranteed - you can again and again get HoC
HoC at new position too easy. Just kill'em all and get BFG for free.
You're bound to run into the Spider's Lair at some point, not that big a deal IMO. HoC (at lower difficulties) was already more or less too easy. Don't know how much difference it makes.
no nuclear plasma = no guaranteed full win (nuclear BFG on Mortuary can be destroyed by explosion :( )
I've been playing for over a year and have never even considered going for a full win. I don't even know whether there are badges that require you to land one. I can understand the added charm, but I don't see problems in running the risk that it's an impossibility.
What standard difficulty do you play on, btw? Since I'll be stuck on HNTR for a little while, I really like the fact that the special levels seem less Herculean than they did before; I feel more confident running around and thus have better chances at improving my game...
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I managed to play some of the new levels (and some of the old). Pretty cool stuff:
Phobos Labs: Shooting gallery with free loot, but not exactly a cakewalk. I like this one.
Military Base: Also good, but I got my ass kicked by the elites. :[
Deimos Labs: Good until I opened the inner central walls. Two shamblers is evil. (disclaimer: i have never successfully fought a shamber). Barely made it out alive.
Hell Arena: Still a decent challenge as always.
Chained Court: I like the new design. I played with and without the Arena Master (killed him on an AoSh run but didn't get to use the staff).
City of Skulls: I don't mind replacing the BFG9000 with the Missile Launcher, even if it makes things harder (I killed the elemental anyway).
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Ok let's see:
All my experience is from UV till now:
New Hell's Arena:
Pretty much nothing changes, only that the new layout makes it somewhat easier to cornershoot. It's easier but the fact that it's on 2nd level and not 3rd (not sure if that's always the case) actually balances it somehow. No complaints.
Chained Court:
Pretty much easy as always since you got the hang of it from earlier games. Liked the fact that the modpacks now are harder to get, and they are also random I assume? I do miss the agility mods for tactical boots, but I guess random is fine too.. No complaints on this really.
Phobos Lab:
Great unique layout. I liked it. Nightmare Demons were REALLY scary at this point in the game, and they were too many. The surprise when returning from a lever was also terrifying with the walls that opened up. Had it not been for Cateye it would be certain death. Quite hard without a phase device for so early in the game... Scared the shit out of me at that point, so it's obviously nice in terms of challenge at least.
Deimos Lab:
Great work too. Loved all the level though the 2 shamblers are a bit overboard especially for lowest difficulties ( I can sympathize with complaints in HNTR/HMP) but I guess since it is an optional level, the challenge is great since the reward is about some of the best mod packs in the game. Some builds will have it incredibly hard against the two regenerating fiends.
At least they can be skipped along with their rewards.
The Wall
This was moved to level 11 from 7. It was a hard special level, but the reward of backpack plus launcher always made it tempting. Now that it's on 11, not only is it much much easier since it is the exact same level, but also makes the player run out of ammo in a way, so that city of skulls right after, becomes harder to visit. Can't say I really liked this change 11 seems kinda late. Also makes the anomaly harder since no missile launcher there now.
Halls of Carnage:
Quite hard. Probably the biggest difference by far from earlier version. The lava runs like crazy (srsly!), the monsters have doubled or tripled, there is no time to do anything. Had it not been for my antigr. boots & MCe, I would have probably died before getting to the exit. Too dangerous without a homing device.
Vaults:
Nothing changed seemed like the same thing. I guess it's ok it didn't really need any changes though I find it quite strange, the fact that there are so many Archviles on the left and they practically never have anything to resurrect. By the time you get to the revevants on the right the Archviles are already dead. This makes it quite easy in fact and silly to boot. Monsters should be mixed to have proper difficulty. I wonder why no-one mentioned this.
Limbo:
Great, nice idea. I do think though that's it's very easy compared to Mortuary. The reason is simple. Due to loads of lava, the monsters don't have that much space to move and resurrect. Furthermore you can knockback most of them in lava. I also assume the corpses are much fewer than in Mortuary which is natural due to lava once again. I entered the level and had 6 archviles from the beginning surrounding me. While this makes it a hard entrance, 2 bfg shots from the get-ago practically finish the whole level this way. Or at least most of it. Isn't that right?
Mount Erebus:
No complaints pretty much a great alternative to Lava pits. Liked it for the time being.
Cyberdemon/Mastermind:
Didn't notice any serious differences but maybe it's just me.
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So far the only new / changed one's I have been in are chained court, phobos lab, military base and abyssal plains.
All are very good, very well thought out. I'd like to see more nostalgia ones like phobos lab and military base. Also, I see we have new tiles all over the place. I dont think we have seen any of the "organic" tiles from Inferno with like, intestines for walls and skin for floors. Is there a reason for that?
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Mt Erebus was always my all time favorite Doom 1 map, I cant wait to find it.
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Mt Erebus was always my all time favorite Doom 1 map, I cant wait to find it.
I'm glad to see more throwback stuff as well.
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As a preface I am on HNTR playing an Ammochain Build. Also, I am loving it!
Phobos Base -
Certainly felt tense when I played it, but not too hard. Fits right into the game.
Deimos Base -
The two shamblers were quite a shock! After the level name turned blue I didn't realize that more enemies could appear. On a higher difficulty I certainly would have died, but it will probably be a real challenge for the better players. I am seeing that melee players are not having trouble with these guys, and shotgun players are. Perhaps if their armor was reduced and their health and regen rate was increased it would balance it for everyone. The two sniper mods I found here upgraded my nuclear plasma rife and my missle launcher, making me feel like a real badass! I also found an onyx mod later on, and the Trigun! Is it just me or is there more rare stuff spawning now?
Containment Area -
Seemed pretty easy! Of course I am feeling a little OP by this point so it is hard to judge. Is there any way to get through it without a rockets?
Spider's Lair - I like the new layout aesthetically. I didn't use any new tactics here, but it seems good.
... I've made it to hell now, but haven't seen any more special levels yet. I like the updated normal level layouts.
Basically, great job!
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I've finally got to see Phobos labs. Int 2 and double shotgun made it much easier, though Angel of Masochism made it more difficult and I died there. Still, I like it. Very doomy, and nice use of acid. I like it much more than the Military Base.
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This isn't really related to this topic but:
I found that I can abuse the phaseshift suit pretty bad. If I get the suit, and onyx mod the armor, I'm practically immortal. AND I can move WAY faster than wearing, say, Enviroboots/cerberus boots. I hate to admit it, but it kind of abuses the game.
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Ah, but how often do you get the phaseshift set?
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...AND an onyx pack?
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Military Base. The place is a great challenge no denying that.
The Elite Former Commandos though seemed like an abuse of nature and too overboard for such an early dungeon level.
Lost one time there recently, cause I encountered one with a freaking napalm launcher.
He did die in the end cause I got near him, but not before exploding us both and filling the whole place with lava without leaving a single exit path.
Couldn't escape the lava, so I naturally died there. Was an impatience game so no medpacks with me...
The other elites in there, are too random as well, so someone would need to be extremely careful to survive it in high difficulties, the only way avoiding all the shots all-together, not that easy with so many elites.
Those unique and exotic weapons the enemies wield at barely level 7, are just too powerful in some games.
And I think it's the first time excluding boss fights, that doomguy can not get the weapon the enemies wield, which I found extremely unfair.
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These are on ITYTD/HNTR, and skewed by my ineptitude:
Chained Court revisions: Fantastic. Resolves the silliness where you needed to crack the corner rooms open - but if you did the Arena (the only likely source of wall-cracking at that point in the game), you got the open layout with no corner rooms so didn't need it. Also, hiding the rewards for CC+ behind a wall is nice.
Phobos Lab: Combat shotty and a couple of mods? Potentially worth the visit, but the ambushes are a nasty surprise.
Military Base: XP and plasma rifles. Tasty, but can be a bit hairy. Fortunately, the builds on which it's scariest probably don't need the kit.
Containment Area: Nasty surprise the first time, but probably defusable.
Phobos Anomaly: Removing the preliminary monsters completely on ITYTD was probably the right idea.
Abyssal Plains: Yelp! Getting locked in a confined space with an Agony Elemental is... alarming.
New Spiders' Lair: It's a place. It's a bit less scary, and removing the nuclear plasma rifle is sad but not that sad.
Mt. Erebus: As a replacement for the Lava Pits, fine. As an alternative to them, I'm not convinced.
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I wanted to ask - do schematics ever spawn in Deimos labs? I know I am probably the only one here who cares about schematics and am actually glad when they spawn, since I decided not to ever look up assemblies on the wiki and I'm sticking with it. I've been getting Deimos labs a lot lately and not once schematics...
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I wanted to ask - do schematics ever spawn in Deimos labs? I know I am probably the only one here who cares about schematics and am actually glad when they spawn, since I decided not to ever look up assemblies on the wiki and I'm sticking with it. I've been getting Deimos labs a lot lately and not once schematics...
I never found one there myself too, after finishing the place 3-4 times.
It's kinda unfair, since you get 2 shamblers instead of 1 there.
Higher risk should at least give a guaranteed schematic should it not? Or at least same chance as in armory.
Maybe we are just unlucky though, both of us.
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win here twice, no schematics. But get 3 from 3 Hell Armory
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Yeah, I hate when Deimos Labs spawns instead of the Armory. :\ It just means I get gypped out of a schematic.
The only time I have ever found a schematic in Deimos Labs was in a UV game; it gave me an advanced assembly.
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If Deimos Lab isn't creating schematics, then I'm pretty sure that's a bug.
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It might be just that the odds of spawning schematics are getting lower the more of them are uncovered. I only need a couple more, so I guess I've just been unlucky. If Ashannar found schematics there once, I guess that means they do spawn there.
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It might be just that the odds of spawning schematics are getting lower the more of them are uncovered. I only need a couple more, so I guess I've just been unlucky. If Ashannar found schematics there once, I guess that means they do spawn there.
IIRC, in 996 I got a schematic in Hell's armory every single time until I ran out of basic assemblies.
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Well, I ran out of basic and most advanced schematics. Plus, I already have three master ones, so I guess the odds of schematics spawning are quite low these days =(
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Well, now I played a lot of .997 games and I must say one thing: phobos lab must be completely remade. First problem in the demons (and especially N!demons) in caves. This is just blunt, you cannot prepare to them, you cannot do something skillful and tricky to them, you cannot avoid them, you must just go and waste your health. And if you're some kind of glasscannon doomguy - well, you suck and suck hardly. Next is ambushes. It's the same, without twodev's strange no-damage magic you must go right into a trap. Two times. No matter what will you do, its unavoidable.
I also think that this level must have an emergency exit, by walking on acid. Switches then should spawn bridge and reward.
And also I must agree with Equality that "chain"-feeling of special levels was broken, now it is mostly a random extra encounters.
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Anytime I see phobos lab on nightmare it's one giant NOPE. I think the demons should flood out through some kind of trigger so you at least get a chance to lure them into acid.
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Phobos Lab is a giant nope nope for me unless I try to do conquer or I'm in a shotgun/meelee build.
And military base on the other hand is a a giant "hell yes!" specially on nightmare.
Phobos lab really needs something to make it even considerable.
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Deimos lab. I have not found the two shamblers to be too tough. If you keep your envirosuit from the base or phobos lab, you have two soul spheres to kill the two shamblers with. It just makes it rather easy, and you get an extra rare modpack for it.. So if anything I prefer it to show up. The rewards are too great, usually after this the rest of the game is a breeze.
Phobos lab is certainly one of the toughest, and it is kinda lame walking face into nightmare demons, especially two of them. I have usually ended up burning a lot of resources in here, but I haven't died on it yet. And right after is phobos anomaly, so your resources are replenished...
In the games I have played everything after deimos lab has ended up being a cakewalk. With all the new levels, I seem to hit that critical mass earlier and more guaranteed with all the mod packs there are now (even though I am still getting schematics instead of mod packs). The 2 games I completed I finished the bosses without taking more than 2 hits (for 1 hp each, thanks to berserker - which I seem to be able to reach in time for the cathedral after getting 2 whizkid and a master trait - don't know if this was or was not the case before, I did melee little before).
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(even though I am still getting schematics instead of mod packs)
Good call. I'm still missing assemblies from all three categories (basic/advanced/master), but on the last couple of runs - at least 2 - HA gave me mods, not schematics. Is that right?
[EDIT]: Nevermind, looks like it is.
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looking again, I see that the soul spheres on deimos are just behind acid. with protective boots (not too unlikely even if you haven't found any up to now, because of all the crates..) you can pick those charges up for about 20% hp. One way or another, it makes them really easy to handle, and you get more rewards than hell's armory. The exception would be if you are playing a build with serious trouble damaging the shamblers. But the way I play I like it a lot better. At this point if I find an onyx or nano pack I'm golden. If I find firestorm/sniper pack/schematic could still be rough.
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Just a shortie:
^%$^$#^$%%$ missile launchers, tons of them, and are useless (in amounts of more than 1; I have usually encounter around 3 each run) 3$#$@$#.... I miss nuclear plasma rifle <3 ... :'( And why one can't rocket jump on that? It's about half of the utility rocket launcher provides...
Also my nemesis (semi useless exotic which I usually see in amounts of 2 or more) is assault shotgun, but that has nothing to new levels ;P Just saying so one won't have dumb ideas about adding more guaranteed ones.
To ease Phobos Lab which is clearly more difficult than Military Base the enviro shouldn't end on the ambush (Angel of Impatience... pppaaaain)
I find Deimos great, that is more difficult and rewarding. Double the shamblers, double the fun. With new AI they are SO much painful to take down now :(
Useful to notice: The contaminent area is a lot easier to tp in as Angel of something limiting, than The wall and is a lot easier to clean for such runs (as you don't tp into shitton of barons rraaound)
Finally I don't have 3 BFGs in backpack, only 2. That's a great progress, 2 is ideal :)
Limbo is much easier than the mortuary in my opinion. Mostly because of the lava. On the other hand skulls are not so effective here, so it balances that.
Mt Erebus is too open or too closed, as those Mancubes always destroy all the loot I could get :/
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Just a shortie:
^%$^$#^$%%$ missile launchers, tons of them, and are useless (in amounts of more than 1; I have usually encounter around 3 each run) 3$#$@$#.... I miss nuclear plasma rifle <3 ... :'( And why one can't rocket jump on that? It's about half of the utility rocket launcher provides...
Missile launchers are absolutely fabulous, though I agree that getting three of them is kinda bothersome... =/
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As someone that started with this version and has no idea what the special levels were really like beforehand...
Arena: Seems fairly balanced for what it is. Total deathtrap on N! for my money, but considering the badges for it, I think that's intentional enough.
Chained Court: Enjoyable, I generally find it a bit easy, but it gives some basic, reliable resources. Good stuff.
(Un)Chained Court: Somewhat harder. Haven't tried this on N!, see comment about the Arena being a deathtrap, but lower than that I still can't say I find it ridiculously hard.
Military Base: Relatively easy, but sorta easy to screw up too. Elite Commandos are ridiculously and randomly dangerous, which seems okay until they fire a Napalm Launcher at you(Had that happen on UV once. Lost 70% of my life from one shot and had to Phase in order to not die instantly.). Loot is pretty random in practice(very breakable crates oriented) but the mods are always nice.
Phobos Lab: Generally worse than base, as noted. I find it pretty manageable on UV and below, but the main loot to me is the extra two large Medkits...and on N! I have not found a way to deal with the Nightmare Demon hallway of "You're never moving, are you?" doom without burning healing, so this makes the rewards rather bad there. It's generally easier than Base on lower difficulties, I find, but the rewards are pretty meh overall. Also, I hate the scripted loss of Envirosuit, it's out of place and basically just a cheapshot. Easy to avoid the cheapshot by picking up both suits and just using the second one after it, to boot.
Hell Armory: A bit easy, good rewards, and if I need spare armors, it has some. Seems pretty good. The setup is generally much safer than the alternative, I find, though it's very easy to screw up if you're not cautious. Layout is far more conducive to fighting Shamblers even ignoring the fact that you only fight one.
Deimos Lab: Double Shambler fight is far, far harder, but it does have healing...that's hidden and easily missed in a casual run, and requires walking through acid to get to unless you manage some good rocket bank shots. Hiding said Supercharges seems strange. Lower end loot is breakable crates+mods, so it's random if it's better or not than Hell's Armory. Honestly I think this is pretty balanced, though the Shambler fight definitely can go out of control easily due to the open area and the fact that there's two.
The Wall: Eh. Backpack is neat but you can really get by without it, and cutting through a bunch of Hell Knights/Barons isn't my idea of fun(unless I somehow have an Onyx or Nano armor.). It's basically one subjective reward and one solid launcher, but you could probably get by with the launcher you had if you could get into The Wall at all. See others comments about there being more Missile Launchers in the game, too. Would really be a good place to put a new missile weapon if you wanted to make one.
Containment Area: More fun than the Wall. Not really that different, but I find fighting out of an enclosed situation more entertaining than fighting into a bunch of enemies. Would like it if the Backpack wasn't in an area where you can get shot by an enemy and have it destroyed(This was my unfun experience the first time I entered. There's a similar, but less easy to solve, problem with the Backpack at the Wall getting blown up by the rockets that the setup encourages you to use, but that's a much harder fix so eh.). Loot's kinda ehn to me still.
Abyssal Plains: Straight up slugfest with solid loot. Feels like a more logical place for the Missile Launcher than Wall/Containment. Standard but interesting enough. The Agony Elemental fight varies a lot depending on what it decides to do and your build, but it generally ends up not being so risky that I mind the being locked in part.
City of Skulls: Massive ammo drain and not worth it for any builds that don't have heavy AoE. Has some ammo that probably won't replenish what it cost. Skulls as rewards kinda suck unless you're planning on doing Mortuary/Limbo. Then again, a BFG works decently well for that too, I believe, and Carnage/Spider always shows up. Basically free EXP for shotgun builds and not much else. Could really use some spicing up.
Halls of Carnage: Interesting area that isn't too challenging, but has forced time pressure. Making people play outside of their comfort zone is cool. :) Loot is worth the effort. Read up on the N! version, and am rather intimidated by it, though. Definitely seems a huge spike there compared to UV.
Spider's Lair: Kinda randomly deathtrap-y. On average it doesn't seem too bad, but every time I go in I'm afraid I'll dodge a little less than I should, or that they'll get better RNG than they should. Still, the concept is interesting and the loot/EXP are good for a short but intense fight, seems like.
Unholy Cathedral: Melee builds only, they get good stuff from it. Simple enough. Yes, I know it's not melee builds only, strictly speaking, but that's way too much work for my tastes otherwise. :)
Vaults: Weird area. Basically best for those who spoil themselves, but even if you do and know how it works, and have the way to make it work, the loot's really random. Still, fine enough.
Mortuary: Death trap area with a cool reward, basically optional super area, cool enough.
Limbo: Never seem to get this. The few times I have involved passing through it invinco or nuking it. I know the layout but I can't give a good opinion on it.
Lava Pits: Ditto Limbo except I've never actually drawn this when I intended to do a bunch of lava walking. Go fig.
Mt. Erebus: Did complete this once. Decent enough for what it is, but what it is basically is less difficult and more specific preparation. Generally don't like bothering, though; the loot's mostly centered around the Lava Element, which mostly is for enabling a Full...which I often lack the other tools needed to do, and may get the tools to replace the Element randomly anyways. Works for what it is, though, which is a way of enabling Fulls without letting everyone get them easily...
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I like the new special levels, but I feel that the Deimos Lab needs to be rebalanced (or at least redesigned, the wierd lever placement and walls leads to much confusion of where certain enemies are coming from).
What's up with all these missile launcher rewards? Please bring back a couple BFG's and at least one nuclear plasma rifle!
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Hell's Arena: Not a new special level, but even if only for certain modes (say AoB), add some guaranteed random water generation to help dispose corpses on N!.
Military Base: West side entrance has a pretty wild design, it's really hard to tell when an enemy has LoS or not in the entrance area. Having this kind of problem in the most dangerous choke point of the level is a great way to eat a napalm rocket and die instantly, but maybe that's the point.
Phobos Lab: Need to be able to aggro nightmare demons without them biting your face off. Rockets work OK for this actually, but things get a bit unbalanced in challenge modes. Improving the rewards while keeping things as is would be cool, too.
Deimos Lab: Everything is easier to clear except the shamblers, since you can wipe out most of the enemies at the warp room where you start off, just have a little patience. In contrast, hell's armory may have cacodemons floating all around you in lava, and they can take a while to pick off. The extra gear and supercharges in Deimos Lab should be enough for the enemies when you pull the levers. The double shamblers are a problem but you should have a fresh armor, supercharge and possibly a new weapon + mods handy for them.
Abyssal Plains: Cool level, though I consider this easier thanks to the health packs and powerups. Also, who's trapping who in the middle? I *want* all those lost souls/pain elementals/agony elemental lined up in front of me so I can erase them more easily :3 There's no reason you shouldn't be ready for the middle portion considering all the stuff you find on this level, though it could be problematic depending on the challenge mode.
Limbo: Feels easier than mortuary, the lava works much more in your favor by providing less stuff to be revived (at least in the middle). Once you secure the middle you can slowly pepper either side's arch-viles to death with rockets or ammochain rapidfire without needing to draw any bridges. The possibility of reviving nightmare enemies is scary, but the map layout simply works too well in your favor. Even on N! I don't think I've died yet after clearing the initial ambush.
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Hell's Arena: Not a new special level, but even if only for certain modes (say AoB), add some guaranteed random water generation to help dispose corpses on N!.
I don't think an opinion of the form "make N! easier" is going to get much traction, somehow :)
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I don't think an opinion of the form "make N! easier" is going to get much traction, somehow :)
This isn't about making it easier necessarily. Your options are severely limited in AoB, to the point where if you want to try clearing hell's arena on N!, really you're just startscumming level 2 for some combination of medpacks/armor/berserk packs. I wouldn't mind if hell's arena were actually *harder* as long as you're given a chance to apply more strategy in Hell's Arena and rely just a little less on RNG the level before.
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Killing stuff in doorways disposes of their corpses, and it's not hard to find a doorway in Hell's Armory. Just sayin'.
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Killing stuff in doorways disposes of their corpses, and it's not hard to find a doorway in Hell's Armory. Just sayin'.
Yes, I totally agree on that for Hell's Armory. :-)
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For some reason, I just really dread doing chained court.
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Well, I think I played enough games to have a real idea of new levels by now.
Here's my feedback :
Regular levels :
Nice new generators. nice lava levels in hell, mixed monsters in caves, more mods... the only thing I'm not sure to like is the abundance of ammo boxes. I think more ammo is a good thing, but I often have 3 or 4 shell boxes. I think it's pretty easier to play a marksman now, too... not sure this is bad, but I think it makes reloader less useful than before (and I think it was already weaker than SoB, Fin, HR & WK)
Arena :
Nicely reworked.
Changing layout makes it more interesting, and reducing rockets/cells reward was quite necessary.
Though, I noticed AoHu can still obtain those stupid acid boots.. I'm afraid it's still a random between this and 2 great armors, including phasecheat one ? :(
Having it always on lvl2 is a good choice too, BUT, I might put it on lvl 3 for AoB.
Chain courts :
Great too.
I wondered if normal CC aren't too easy, but overall, it's nice. Also, I guess it makes skipping of Arena more valuable, which isn't a bad thing.
CC+ are a delight. probably a little harder than before (due to monster's AI, imo), but I love this new layout.
Military base :
1st impression, on HNTR : level is ridiculously easy, and tracking map is like a cheat. Also, isolated room looks quite easy to permawait and kill everyone in melee on a door, no ?
After discovering the level on UV & N!, I wouldn't say the level is too easy anymore (still easy, but comparable with Arena : some dangers remain). I'd still rework the bottom room, and probably move some elites from the right of the right section, to the left of this same section, so that you can't cornershot everything too easily.
New formers are great, but we should be able to check their weapon (at least, with look command; ideally, with adapted graphics)
(paired with)
Phobos lab :
N! demons waiting in corridors don't seem very interesting to me. Efficent, of course, but I wonder if there is an alternative to running back to the acid room (save melee build, ofc).
2nd issue in the same level : scripted removal of envirosuit at the ambush is ridiculous...
This level's design is way too vicious for dl7 : a hard level could be good, but here, there's no way to avoid traps : N! demons idle, walls are indestructible, and ambush walls don't open until you walk in shotgun's range... wtf ?
Also, military base gives you a suit (which is a good idea), while lab tends to need using both. Maybe add a 3rd in the end room ? Really imbalanced pair atm, anyway.
Anomaly :
New lost soul completely changed the ambush. It's goot that rocket jump or phase isn't mandatory anymore.
No missile launcher yet, which gives the BB a chance to do something. Good adjustements.
The wall :
It was already too easy at dlvl7 (I nearly always went damageless, my only prerequisite was 200 shells and a few rockets). so at this level, it's a cakewalk. Boring, too easy, needs rework.
(paired with)
Containement area :
Not very hard, but the random enemies placement and ambush trigger leaving you at a bad spot makes it way more interesting than the wall.
Just : Why is the bottom of the level unused ? :( ! And please, make this backpack indestructible.
Deimos lab :
WTF two shamblers ??? Well, considering the improved reward, it's probably rather well balanced. What I don't like is that sometimes, rewards are F & S, or one of F/S & cybercrapmor... fighting 2 shamblers for that really piss me off.
I wonder if 1st pair of levers placement isn't a bit abusive : I sometime discover 3 revenants when opening the wall, and get rocketted before I get any time to react.
(paired with)
Hell's armory
While I think the level used to be too easy to complete damageless, I don't like random placement of enemies either : looks like I'm just rolling my shambler's head with dices...
Nice to see there's at least a (potentially) useful reward now. I just cried when I got a combat translocator ^^.
City of skulls :
Like anomaly, no BFG when entering is a good improvement.
Nice bullets. I won't regret cells.
WHY a 2nd missile launcher ? A napalm (or whatever else you want) could be more interesting. btw, it might be here for those who... skipped the wall xD ? Anyway, having the same reward twice is really bad. Two BFG were (way too much) useful, but 2nd missile launcher is plain useless. At the very least, change the reward if previous level was completed.
(paired with)
Abyssal plains :
Funny level. Enough covers, but not enough to abuse them (I'd better say I didn't find the sweet spot yet, I guess), a nice fight against the elemental... looks harder than city of skulls to me, but it's ok since there is more rewards.
Beeing able to use (blood) skulls on place contrasts with city of skulls, but isn't a big problem. Also, funny to have the sheel box bundled with the level :p
Halls of carnage :
Damn, I expected to die here... didn't manage yet, but at least difficulty was increased. Still a free BFG on HNTR, but who cares ?
On UV... I must say I LOVE the remake. Really. Probably more than any other level. The time limit plays a big role, I guess.
(paired with)
Spider's lair :
Wait, what ? paired with Halls of carnage ??? sounds completely different, and way harder to me, even with a missile launcher & tons of rockets. Also, the new layout is nice, but I think it makes rockets really hard to use...
Nice to see that cheat plasma gun has been removed, of course.
Really weird to pair such levels. If you keep it, add shells in the lair (probably not on formers, since they would be off-theme). It must be terrible to have the lair on a shotty run, currently.
In the same order of idea, I'd add a few cells in HoC. Probably not on formers either, since current level's difficulty is good. I'm not sure having a cell pack only in the lair is balanced. Sure, this isn't a vital item at all, but having one is always great, especially when coupled with a B-modded BFG.
My favorite idea remains : un-pairing those levels, and keep both. (replace lair's BFG with a nuke, phase device (for the vaults), or some other cool stuff)
You could also let the player choose between both stairs (but I don't like this one much... I'm not fond of randomness, but I don't like the idea of choosing between 2 very different levels, unless you have to choose between 2 different rewards, like "Backpack OR BFG".) Here, it would be a choice of difficulty, which would result in choosing the easiest one.
Babel :
Not much to say here, but I wonder if adding lost souls couldn't be good. Got this idea because currently, it's quite boring... it would require balancing the beast, btw.
Vaults :
Guaranteed good item is a great improvement.
Makes me think that no special level seem to guarantee a phase device... shouldn't it be one ?
Also, one change I was expecting : replace barons from lower difficulty, they wear armors...
Limbo :
The little quantity of walkable floor makes the number of enemies much lower, and easier to radarshoot, or gib with some knockback -> level easier than mortuary ? I read it was too easy with 2 BFG shots... this might be true, gotta try it.
Anyway. Mores viles means more fun ! Nightmare cacos are great too, since enemies couldn't swarm you with all this lava
Since lava can be dangerous for the player and vile's number as been raised, I think it's an excellent alternative. Different from mortuary, but still swarmy & dangerous.
Little bug : raising a bridge twice (with 2nd lever) gibs corpses on it.
(paired with)
Mortuary :
Nothing much to say here. but I really wonder what is that assault shotgun for (and I nearly always carry a shotgun, all game long). Make it a random exotic ? mod ? phase device ?
Mt. Erebus :
Seems fairly easier than the lava pits, isn't it ?
I didn't try to phase, but I guess you'll always land on the (unique) platform, so the envirosuit is probably not as mandatory as it is in the pits. Also, non-marines used to need two if possible, but here, I'm pretty sure one will always be enough.
"summoning" little waves of monsters with the levers looks easy. only to me ? Maybe some cacos should spawn in the rigtt part of the level when you pull them ?
For me, this level is quite boring: camp the starting platform until you shot every flying thing, then enviro or phase to the right, and shoot a few monsters, then finish 3 weak waves... I prefered lava pits.
(paired with)
Lava pits :
Nothing to say here. I'm just glad some (too early ?) levels give guaranteed envirosuits.
Dis :
Well, I usually nuke Mastermind... the only change I noticed was the ridiculously slow attack animation. Very annoying, since runs where I fight the MM are always speedruns, and this animation cripples gameplay.
2 (off topic) suggestions here :
-add an option in config "don't show animations", for speedruns. Where every animation would be instant.
-increase projectiles speed after some distance, or once they leave player's screen (they are always fired close to the player, so after about 10/15 tiles, they can't still be in sight range). This would be a partial fix, but still a first step to smoother animations.
Shouldn't JC be buffed, so that we only attack him when we really want to take a risk ?
Hell fortress :
Still too easy. I think it needs to be reworked with lava, walls, enemies... and JC got to be a boss, not BFG fooder.
His summons could pop at smarter positions than "around him", have more variety (e.g. 1 random enemy every turn, not "8 enemies sometimes", etc.)
Anyway... I don't think skipping the mastermind should ease the fight. Doomguy is most of the time too powerful for bosses anyway, but I'm sure this could be improved.
Overall :
I think balance is rather good. Phobos lab's corridors and acid ambush really bug me, and I don't like pairing of the lair with HoC at all, but all the rest is ok. There has been a lot of sweet improvements, and only a few drawbacks.
I don't know if xp difference between some paired levels is significant, but I hope it's not too much : I got more XP on a run where I skipped UC than on a conqueror one... I hope it was due to caves or monsters distribution, of course, but I wonder. Abbyssal plains, for example, seems more XPful thant CoS. I got to calculate some numbers.
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I agree with Evilpotatoe on pretty much everything, but especially this:
Babel :
Not much to say here, but I wonder if adding lost souls couldn't be good. Got this idea because currently, it's quite boring... it would require balancing the beast, btw.
Not only would it make the fight more interesting (and getting the Head a bit harder) but it would bring it a bit closer to the original level.
Furthermore, there would be two options: The Lost Souls die with Cybie in the same way JC's summons die on his death, or you would have to hunt them down prior to taking down the big C himself, which would add to the challenge of YAAM, which is a good thing IMO. Could be annoying and random with the soul's new behaviour, though. They have a tendency to rush to the other side of the level and get lost.
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Furthermore, there would be two options: The Lost Souls die with Cybie in the same way JC's summons die on his death, or you would have to hunt them down prior to taking down the big C himself, which would add to the challenge of YAAM, which is a good thing IMO. Could be annoying and random with the soul's new behaviour, though. They have a tendency to rush to the other side of the level and get lost.
Or maybe you must kill all of them to be teleported to hell. That will give you time to heal\reload\change equipment after hard (khe he, "hard". At least it intended to be so) bossfight. Currently you are teleported "as is" and, we-ell, say hello to arachocave or few VMB packs.
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I didn't mention this option (I should have) because I don't like it too much: being forced to hunt for lost souls after the fight would make the fight a bit anticlimactic, plus the episode in Doom does end with cybie's death...
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Bah, lost soul's AI could be improved too... so that they don't forget about the player after failing a charge. Current AI is a big improvment over the previous one, but is sometimes extremely annoying, indeed. (especially as vampyre in the lava pits :p)
Why not just make LS keep track of the player after a charge ? At least, until they charge him again. This would make them less predictable (as in Doom, they could wait a lot before charging), and therefore more dangerous than current lost souls.
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I recently played the Containment Area. Damn good level; I was on edge and still managed to kick ass. I like the locked rooms with the loot in them as well; I wouldn't have been able to fight those Barons/Knights without the Missile Launcher/rocket box. Also the Backpack! was nice.