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DoomRL => Discussion => Topic started by: ultimate26 on February 02, 2007, 20:32

Title: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: ultimate26 on February 02, 2007, 20:32
im in the unholy cathedral with 3 ironman 3 TAS and 2 EE, i go in with my chainsaw on aggressive, and i see you missed, you missed,  WTF!!! even in the original doom chainsaw was an autohit, i feel ripped off! cant we change the melee system? make it more accurate? or more powerful?

its a chainsaw, and i believe that even in real life nobody would miss swinging the giant thing around, and demons arent supposed to be ninjas to dodge stuff!   and out of topic but, how do u kill the angel of death? u need mass healing items?
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Styro on February 02, 2007, 20:52
Melee is a tough way to go. I agree that it should probably be a little easier to hit, but I think you just had a run of bad luck on that one.

With that being said, you had the wrong traits for entering the UC. Here are some tips on the AoD.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 03, 2007, 04:46
General consensus now is that melee is a little overpowered xD. As for missing with a chainsaw -- find one take it in your arms, and try to hit a moving target (and remember that flying skulls and demons are quick!). Chainsaws are HEAVY!
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: TFoN on February 03, 2007, 13:13
More tips on UC:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As said, it seems melee is rather unbalanced at the moment - you start out weak and somewhat luck-relient, and end up quite overpowered.
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Supernaut on February 03, 2007, 14:55
Quote from: Kornel Kisielewicz on February 03, 2007, 04:46
General consensus now is that melee is a little overpowered xD. As for missing with a chainsaw -- find one take it in your arms, and try to hit a moving target (and remember that flying skulls and demons are quick!). Chainsaws are HEAVY!
Thats correct, but our hero is the one badass so he should be able to autohit with chainsaw (vide original doom) ;)
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: ultimate26 on February 03, 2007, 20:24
oh, how can they be overpowered? is it in the next version or now? and lets not go into details about the weight of the chainsaw and stuff, i think it should be more hittable, its melee for gods sake!! maby make it more damaging? 
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Adral on February 04, 2007, 04:17
Quote from: ultimate26 on February 03, 2007, 20:24
and lets not go into details about the weight of the chainsaw and stuff, i think it should be more hittable, its melee for gods sake!! maby make it more damaging? 

In fact, swinging about a *heavy* chainsaw is much less precise and less effective than swinging a sword, for instance, which has been built from the ground up for combat. A chainsaw is a power tool, it's like fighting with a drill - difficult and cumbersome.

Hollywood, on the other hand, has always showed us the image of the badass hero/villain swinging a (fake) chainsaw like if it was a valid combat weapon. Which it isn't, because of weight *balance*. I've had a real chainsaw on my hands, and I have had some real medieval weapons also, and the difference is abysmal. Also, the fact it is heavier in fact is a reason why it is harder to move, and not the other way around. It's easier to swing a knife and hit (in real life, at least) than swing a huge 6kg rock and hit. The damage caused, however, is another story. :P

I think you should try going on the Angel of Berserk challenge, with the appropiate Brute/Berserker traits, and you'll see how, once you have the chainsaw, it's pretty much a walk in the park, with some caution taken and a wise use of large med-packs to engage in berserk state. Also remember that the tactics setting affect your to-hit chance, so being aggressive works better (berserker works even better, of course:P)
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: TFoN on February 04, 2007, 11:48
Quote from: ultimate26 on February 03, 2007, 20:24
oh, how can they be overpowered?

You'll figure that one out after you get through the AoD :P

EDIT: err, over quoted.
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Valkeera on February 10, 2007, 09:58
But in Doom, you don't swing the chainsaw - you just cram it in the demon's face and let it do the rest :-)
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Styro on February 12, 2007, 10:24
I may be wrong here, but I think that most people have come to the conclusion that melee is overpowered based on this scenario:

1. You are playing an Angel of Berserk challenge
2. You are playing on medium difficulty (the lowest possible in a challenge game)
3. You max out the Brute perk (and probably take berserk).
4. After dozens of deaths in the first few levels you finally manage to get the chainsaw.
5. You kill the Angel of Death and get the ultimate spoily.

Under those circumstances then I agree that melee is uber-powerful. But if you take away any of those melee is a very difficult game (except perhaps the challenge - that only gives you the berserk for large medipack ability). For example, you simply cannot survive a melee game without all the bonus damage from 3 levels of Brute. You also would not last long with only the chainsaw. And the harder difficulties are nearly impossible.

I have been trying to win a Hard or UV AoB game for a while. In UV you run into Hell Knights before you even get to the chainsaw. Try taking those guys down even if you are lucky enough to find a combat knife! Also, the sheer numbers of enemies is so high that you get creamed before you can get into melee range. I have managed to get to the chainsaw a few times, but the game at that point is still extremely difficult.

In my latest Hard game I got the chainsaw fairly easily (died fewer than 10 times), but on the level after that I ran into 5 Hell Knights. I managed to kill 4, but the last one was supported by a sergeant (the arch-nemesis of the melee game) and a captain. I had already used up all my healing. I did manage to kill them, but was down below 20% health and died on the next level which had more cacos and HKs.

Overall, I guess, I am saying that even though the medium difficulty challenge game is a piece of cake once you get the chainsaw, that the harder difficulties in AoB are even more difficult than other challenge or normal games on the same difficulty settings. In other words, a medium AoMr may be harder than a medium AoB but a hard AoMr is much easier than a hard AoB. And melee combat outside of maxing out Brute is pretty wimpy. And I don't tend to put any points in Brute in any game other than an AoB challenge.

I am not saying that melee is necessarily underpowered, but I hesitate to call it overpowered based on one select scenario.

This example of melee being overpowered:
Quote
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
is not a good one because Blade played that game while save-scumming just to see if it was even possible. He died numerous times in order to get that result.

Does anyone else have experience playing the harder difficulties of AoB? I am curious if others agree or disagree with what I have seen.
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Blade on February 12, 2007, 13:30
I tend to disagree. AoB is very easy on hard levels. Belive me, i made it without savescumming in Malicious Knives challenge to level 16. Even without LS, only with chainsaw, game is more than beatable without savescumming. And it is so if:
"1. You are playing an Angel of Berserk challenge"(It is necessary)
"3. You max out the Brute perk (and probably take berserk)."(this is required only if you are playing without weapons, or with knife, chainsaw is powerfull enough to deal great damage with Brute*2, and LS don't need it at all)
"4. After dozens of deaths in the first few levels you finally manage to get the chainsaw."(after several hundreds of deaths you will get certain skill to survive when you don't have normal weapon)

Berserk is a very powerfull instrument. It is the easiest way to win melee game without weapons, or with knife. You can deal normal damage in such game only if you are Berserk. Berserk grants you very fast speed and very good protection, and that is enough if not to win every fight, then at least survive. Eat Berserk every day and you will be healthy and your hair will be silky. Be careful of fakes, buy Berserk only in our shop!))

In addition: all you need is skills and experience. And this can obtained only if you will play not one dozen of games. I obtained experience of surviving after Malicious Knives challenge, unarmed game and Nighmare!(tm) runs.
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Supernaut on February 14, 2007, 12:59
What is Malicious Knives Challenge?
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Blade on February 14, 2007, 13:42
Here (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=536.0) it is. See title under my name? Guess, who is the winner?))
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: TFoN on February 18, 2007, 13:21
Quote from: Styro on February 12, 2007, 10:24
This example of melee being overpowered:

Quote
 (click to show/hide)
Blade killed the AoD, while being berserk and unarmed - the secret is in making him bleed, and then retreating while he loses HPs. But this requires shitloads of luck. Point is, if you see the AoD bleeding, consider not trying to hit him, but run until the bleeding stops, and then resume battering.

is not a good one because Blade played that game while save-scumming just to see if it was even possible. He died numerous times in order to get that result.

Well, that's not really true, simply because that wasn't an example for why melee's overpowered :)
Notice I said that system requires "shitloads of luck" - nothing uber requires "shitloads of luck"!
I was just talking about something useful when fighting the AoD from a disadvantage.


Now, really regarding melee being overpowered:
First of all, I don't think I've ever taken all 3 levels of Brute. Not to say that's the best idea, but I *have* beaten melee games, so I *know* it's possible :P
Also, I don't think I've died "dozens" of times between Chainsaw-reaching games (though this is regarding only M diff). Still, even 5 impossible games (especially for low difflvls) at a time are way too many. Referring to Blade's post, skill should certainly affect your ability to pull extraordinary stunts, but not be so required to survive early-game balance issues. These should, IMO, be resolved by changing them.
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Supernaut on February 28, 2007, 06:59
Quote from: Blade on February 14, 2007, 13:42
Here (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php?topic=536.0) it is. See title under my name? Guess, who is the winner?))
Damn...


 Will it be licking your * if I say that you rule?
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Blade on February 28, 2007, 09:07
Quote from: Supernaut on February 28, 2007, 06:59
Will it be licking your * if I say that you rule?

Nope. I absolutely don't need it. My post was just harmless comment, without seeking for acknowledgement.
Title: Re: wtf is wrong with melee?
Post by: Supernaut on February 28, 2007, 10:19
Thats not what I was asking ;) .