Chaosforge Forum

DoomRL => Post Mortem => Topic started by: Arron Syaoran on August 23, 2014, 15:14

Title: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Arron Syaoran on August 23, 2014, 15:14
I figured it was unfair because the RNG spawned me in a room full of Arachnotrons, and the only exit out led to an Arch Vile Guarded by 2+ Revenants. Overall, they were doing more damage than I can heal, doing 70% of my health in 1 turn after 3 arachnotron blasts and 1 Revenant Melee. If only it had spawned me in the west room instead. I was given no warning that I would need the phase device that I left behind on the last floor. I'm getting better at UV, my furthest was about Hell 1-2(didn't show that run since this one was less avoidable).

Unfortunately, I feel that every time I run UV, I feel the desperate need to always pick scout so I can level Intuition quickly. What sucks about scout is their masteries aren't as fun/powerful as Marine/Technician. I know I would've died before Deimos many times if I didn't have Intuition with me.

Here's the Mortem I promised(some words were botched for comic purposes, but the numbers don't lie):
--------------------------------------------------------------
 DoomRL (0.9.9.7) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

 Ulric Violet, level 9 Hell Baron Major Scout,
 let an arachnotron get him on level 7 of the Deimos base.
 He survived 73753 turns and scored 102544 points.
 He played for 1 hour, 27 minutes and 5 seconds.
 He was a man of Ultra-Violets!

 He killed 466 out of 485 hellspawn. (96%)
 He held his right to remain violet.
 He was an Angel of Mass Carnage!

 He saved himself 3 times.

-- Special levels --------------------------------------------

  Levels generated : 11
  Levels visited   : 1
  Levels completed : 1

-- Awards ----------------------------------------------------

  UAC Star (bronze ingot)

-- Graveyard -------------------------------------------------

  ===========================================================
  ===========================================================
  ...======..}=======================....^...............====
  ##...................==============.##################.====
  .#.#################.==============.#................#^====
  .#.#...............#.=============h.#....}.+.........#.====
  .#.#...........##..#.==============.#}..A............#.====
  .#.+..##....##.##..#.==============.#.|A||......[.&..#.====
  .#.#..##....##.....#.==============.#.|..............#.====
  .#.#.....##....##..#.==============.#................#.====
  .#.#.....##....##..#>==============.#..^..!..|.......#.====
  .#.#..##...........#.==============|#................#.====
  .#.#..##h..........#.==============.#................#.====
  ##.#...............#.==============V#.....X..........#.====
  ...#|..............#.==============.#.....R..........#i====
  =".#################.==============.######/###########.====
  ==...................==============.R..V...i...i.^.i...====
  =====...=...===============+==================ii..=...=====
  =====...=...===================================.B.=...=====
  ===========================================================

-- Statistics ------------------------------------------------

  Health 0/50   Experimence 34651/9
  ToHit Ranged +12  ToHit Melee +12  ToDmg Ranged +2  ToDmg Melee +2

-- Traits ----------------------------------------------------

  Class : Scout

    Finesse          (Level 2)
    Tough as nails   (Level 2)
    Son of a bitch   (Level 2)
    Intuition        (Level 2)
    Whizkid          (Level 1)

  Int->Int->Fin->Fin->WK->SoB->SoB->TaN->TaN->

-- Equipment -------------------------------------------------

    [a] [ Armour      ]   nothing
    [b] [ Weapon of Choice     ]   gatling gun (1d7)x6 [6/60]
    [c] [ Leather Boots      ]   tactical boots [0/0] (100%)
    [d] [ Prepared Weapon   ]   plasma rifle (1d8)x6 [40/40] (P1)

-- Inventory -------------------------------------------------

    [a] rocket launcher (6d6) [1/1]
    [b] blaster (2d4) [10/10]
    [c] blue armor [2/2] (200%) (B)
    [d] blue armor [2/2] (100%)
    [e] red armor [4/4] (200%) (B)
    [f] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [g] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [h] 10mm ammo (x100)
    [i] power cell (x50)
    [j] power cell (x22)
    [k] power cell (x50)
    [l] power cell (x50)
    [m] small med-pack
    [n] large med-pack
    [o] large med-pack
    [p] large med-pack
    [q] large med-pack
    [r] large med-pack
    [s] large med-pack
    [t] large med-pack

-- Resistance is Futile! -----------------------------------------------

    None

-- Kills -----------------------------------------------------

    94 former zombies
    55 possessed sergeants
    33 possessed captains
    92 imps of the wookie kind
    24 demons that are pink and look like minotaurs
    88 lost souls
    10 cocoademons
    8 hell knights
    17 barons of hell knights
    7 arachnotrons
    9 former diggle commandos
    7 pain elementals
    7 revenants, armed with Revenant Launchers
    8 sexy mancubi
    5 arch-viles
    2 bruiser brothers

-- History ---------------------------------------------------

  He started his journey on the surface of Phobos.
  On level 5 he stormed the Chained Court.
  On level 6 he assembled a gatling gun!
  On level 8 he encountered the Phobos Anomaly.
  On level 12 he assembled a tactical boots!
  Level 15 was a hard nut to crack!
  On level 15 he finally let an arachnotron get him.

-- Messages --------------------------------------------------

 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arachnotron (mortally wounded) | floor | [ m ]ore
 The missile hits the arachnotron. The missile hits the arachnotron. The
 arachnotron dies. The missile hits the arachnotron. The missile hits the
 arachnotron. The missile hits the arachnotron. The missile hits the
 arachnotron. The revenant hits you.
 You use a large med-pack. You feel fully healed. The revenant hits you. You
 are hit! You are hit! Your blue armor is completely destroyed! You are hit!
 You are hit! You are hit!
 Fire -- Choose target...
 You see : an arachnotron (heavily wounded) | power cell (x20) | arachnotron
 You see : an arachnotron (heavily wounded) | power cell (x20) | arachnotron
 The missile hits the arachnotron. The missile hits the arachnotron. The
 missile hits the arachnotron. The missile hits the arachnotron. The
 arachnotron dies. The revenant hits you. You are hit! You are hit! You are
 hit! You are hit! You are hit! You die!... Press <Enter>...

-- General ---------------------------------------------------

 279 brave souls have ventured into Phobos:
 245 of those were slaughtered.
 2 of those were murdered by something unknown.(probably slenderman)
 5 didn't read the thermonuclear bomb manual.
 And 15 couldn't handle the mistakes he made and committed a cowardly suicide.

 12 souls destroyed the Mastermind...
 2 sacrificed itself for the good of mankind.
 9 killed the female dog-spider and survived.
 1 showed that it can outsmart Hell itself, by killing JC.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: LuckyDee on August 23, 2014, 15:40
Why did you go for TAN? The purpose of AoMC is to not get hit, so that would make two traits you could have spent increasing your DPS... Other than starting with INT2 and following up with FIN and SOB seems like a good strategy.
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Arron Syaoran on August 23, 2014, 17:14
I still get hit every once in a while, just not as often. I'm just worried about going from ~60% to zero in one hit. Besides, I didn't know not to take TaN.

Also, how the hell does anyone make it through UV without Intuition? Without Intuition I get hit way more often. Should I go Cateye? That would be the only guarantee to not get hit at all for me.
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Tormuse on August 23, 2014, 17:40
I don't entirely agree with LuckyDee.  Speaking as someone who has never been able to 100% avoid getting hit, TaN and Ironman are very helpful in preventing late game instadeaths.  Certainly, the ideal would be to avoid damage completely, but if you look at my mortems, you may notice that I rarely go a whole game without TaN or Ironman.  In fact, if I have the opportunity, such as in Ao100, I'll max out both traits.  (I would max them out in my early games too; for a long time when I was a seasoned beginner, it was the only way I could win)

As for this situation, yeah, it sucks when the RNG throws you into a situation like this, facing a group of Arachnotrons with no cover.  :|  Sometimes, avoiding damage is impossible and you just have to try to limit it.  For example, perhaps, in this situation, you could have run up to the Arachnotrons in the first few seconds before they woke up, and shot them at point-blank range while they could only hit you with their melee attack which does considerably less damage than their plasma barrage.  Or perhaps you could have gone into the lower-right corner of the room, out of view of most of them so that fewer of them could shoot you at a time?  It's hard to tell from the screenshot if any of those options are viable; just a couple of ideas off the top of my head.

EDIT:  Also, I like your changes to the mortem.  "Resistance is futile!"  Heehee!  :)
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Arron Syaoran on August 23, 2014, 18:15
Ulric Violet was named so, because he held his right to remain VIOLET, and to be vaguely named after the words "Ultra Violence".

As for the Arachnotron situation, I guess I should keep a phase device(possibly 2 if they spawn) in my inventory all the time from now on, seeing how i've died at least 3 times(on HMP and UV) to spawning into a room filled with enemies with no cover nearby. I had too many Large Medical Packs anyway.(about 9 before I died). From now on I'll limit it to 7. Usually if I would need more medpacks would be if either I'm doing melee, or I get into a situation with an unavoidable death.

As for my Blade Bandit Challenge, I got to Floor 13 on HNTR with YAAM until the floor I died. I went down to 4% with no healing left anywhere and 4 enemies left to kill. One more level and I would've had Malicious Blades Master Trait. Avoiding damage must be harder in melee since you can't radar shoot at all(thrown knives almost always miss). HMP Runs kill me between Floor 2 and 5 on average(Hell Knights and Pink Minotaurs are super deadly). I'm considering nerfing the challenge so that ranged might be usable until a certain point, or possibly allow(force) AoB + Ao100(Vampyre/Chainsaw still not allowed) since I haven't seen any mortems regarding the Centurial Blade Bandit Challenge(CBBandit)
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: papilio on August 23, 2014, 19:39
I think Intuition generally does NOT help that much on UV or N!, except for AoMC.
Monsters are too strong and packed in huge groups so you have to give 2 trait points in other combat skills to survive.
However, in AoMC, intuition still helps. Practice cornering and dodging.
And TaN is not that useful in AoMC, Hellrunner is much better.
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: LuckyDee on August 24, 2014, 01:53
Quote from: Tormuse on August 23, 2014, 17:40
Speaking as someone who has never been able to 100% avoid getting hit...
Quote from: Arron Syaoran on August 23, 2014, 17:14
Also, how the hell does anyone make it through UV without Intuition? Without Intuition I get hit way more often. Should I go Cateye? That would be the only guarantee to not get hit at all for me.

Heh, by no means am I claiming that I am able to pull off not getting hit :S It's just that INT2 gives you a good chance at avoiding damage already, so I think you're better off taking traits that increase your DPS or - as papilio suggested - your movespeed. And yeah, I too am unable to go about a UV game without the INT2 start. Corner/radarshooting is no problem of course, but I keep being ambushed if I don't see my enemies coming. Any tips, papilio?

Like I said, I think my tutors were right in suggesting not taking a master trait. Since I need the INT2 start I'm also forced to play a Scout; due to the nature of AoMC you'll want to play a rapidfire build, and Cateye just doesn't add that much to your tactics in this case, IMO. For comparison, here's the trait progression I took in the game that landed me my first victory:

Int->Int->SoB->SoB->HR->Fin->HR->DM->Fin->SoB->EE->SoB
There's probably room for improvement, but because you're not chasing a master trait, you're totally free to choose what trait suits you best whenever you level up. Also, playing AoMC with INT2 makes TH somewhat redundant - a lot of enemies will die in a single volley anyway - so that's yet another trait point spent better elsewhere. Incidentally, I used the same strategy to beat my first standard UV game (http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,6866.0.html), and with (eventual) success.

If you want to try another UV 'practice' game, I'd suggest playing a MAD build on AoSh. It'll prevent you from taking INT, while giving you the ability to radarshoot effectively right from the start. I've still yet to beat that one, though.
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Arron Syaoran on August 24, 2014, 09:33
I was actually considering UV AoSh MAD as one of my next games.
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Tormuse on August 24, 2014, 12:11
Quote from: Arron Syaoran on August 23, 2014, 18:15
I'm considering nerfing the challenge so that ranged might be usable until a certain point, or possibly allow(force) AoB + Ao100(Vampyre/Chainsaw still not allowed) since I haven't seen any mortems regarding the Centurial Blade Bandit Challenge(CBBandit)

Considering that you only posted the challenge 4 days ago, I think you need to give it a bit more time for people to produce any mortems.  Ao100 is, by nature a lengthy challenge and you've put some pretty tough conditions on it.  I've made a few attempts, but I was holding off on posting mortems until I actually succeed, but if you'd like to see it, here's my best attempt at Angelic Demonic so far:

Spoiler: Mortem (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [UV|AoMC|96%|YASD] - Unfair situation with no way out(with a botched mortem)
Post by: Arron Syaoran on August 24, 2014, 17:55
Sorry for being impatient, I'll give the Challenge at least another 2 months or more before I complain for Centurial Blade Bandit.

I've just started doing my AoSh MAD builds, died 3 times so far, furthest gotten was chained court. I had 88 Shells left when a chaingunner popped out of no where. I could've sworn the ne corner of the eastern area was clear, but he snuck in from the west area that i haven't cleared yet. I kinda hate how mobs don't always grunt when you're nearby, and how mobs don't always get hit when you shoot in their direction(known as misses, especially notorious on Pistol UV builds with 1 or less eagle eye). To be honest, I've tried UV at least 4 times before I started the UV Int Masterless Chaingunner AoMC run, and died every time(mostly on floors 1-2), furthest gotten then was floor 5.

Also, if anyone hasn't noticed yet, I've become victorious at my first UV Win: http://forum.chaosforge.org/index.php/topic,7196.msg63422/topicseen.html#msg63422
Right now I'm doing AoSH UV MAD build, but I'm also considering a standard game for UAC Gold, as well as the blade bandit challenge I proposed on HMP/HNTR.